Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program bringing
you up to date news, views,
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and discussion on
religious liberty events
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in the United States
and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest on the
program is Bruce Cameron
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who is the Reed Larson
Professor at Regent University.
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Thanks, Bruce. It's great
to have you on the program.
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It's great to be here.
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And I think we--the
best thing we can start off
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with is discussing one
of the things that you do--
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you are not
only a law professor,
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you're involved with workplace
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accommodation
issues, aren't you?
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I have a great life and
not only am I able to teach
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law students at the
Regent University School of Law.
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Regent, by the way, is an
overtly Christian law school.
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So I'm helping to
guide young Christians
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who want to go out
and change the world.
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So it's a glorious thing.
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I'm also on staff
with the National Right
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to Work Legal
Defense Foundation,
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which has been a blessing
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in my life for
more than 35 years.
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They have allowed
me in the last 35 years
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to litigate religious liberty
cases on behalf of employees.
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Uh, they've
allowed-- they paid the bill
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to pioneer the law
for those employees
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who've religious
objections to joining
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or financially
supporting a labor union.
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And the great news about
this is someone comes to me
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and says, Bruce,
"I've got to choose
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between my job
and my conscience.
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Can you help me?"
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And I say, "Not
only can I help you,
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I can help you for free." Well.
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Well, you're
getting the word out there.
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But, no, I'm
glad you brought it up
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because I was going
to introduce the fact
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that in my view one of
the top experts on issues
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of accommodation
relating to labor unions,
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religious accommodation
and the labor unions.
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I think I litigate
more of those cases
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in any other
lawyer in the country.
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And the Seventh-day Adventists,
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that's more
than passing interest
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because we've
got a historic stand,
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how should I phrase it?
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I hope we're not against labor
unions in the classic sense,
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but we're very suspicious
of participating in it
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because we believe
that the labor union
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will restrict our
conscience options right?
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Well, their model for
operation is inconsistent
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with the gospel, it seems to me.
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And in fact, that's the reason
why I came to the foundation.
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I came there
straight out of law school.
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My last year of law school
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I interned with the
US Department of Justice
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and I was looking--
I went to law school
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because I wanted to serve God.
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I wanted to
advance the kingdom of God.
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And so I wanted to go work
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for the
Seventh-day Adventist Church.
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And so I sent a letter out
to all of the unions saying,
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"I went to the top
schools. I've got top grades.
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I'm willing to work for cheap.
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How about hiring me?"
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I think cheap
that's the way we are.
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There's not a lot of
money in church work,
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but the rewards
are great. Isn't it?
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I promised my wife that
I would be a poor lawyer.
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So she had been
warned about this
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when I was talking
to her about marriage.
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So I sent this
letter out to all the unions
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and they sent back
letters uniformly saying,
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"Either, lawyer?
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We don't need a lawyer
or we just hired a lawyer.
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And we expect to be 10
years before we need another."
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So this was quite discouraging
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because I was coming
into my third year of--
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third and last
year of law school.
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So I started looking around
and in the placement office,
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I saw a letter
written by a gentleman
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named Reed-- Rex Reed.
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And Rex Reed said that
he was the legal director
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at the National Right to
Work Legal Defense Foundation,
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never heard of them before.
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But he said, "What we
do is we help employees
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who want to stand
apart from labor unions."
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I said, "Bingo."
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This is one of the
important religious
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liberty teachings of the church,
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one of the important religious
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liberty problems
for church members.
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So I sent my resume in.
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He sent me an airline
ticket to fly up there.
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And they hired me
early in my third year.
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And when I talked to them,
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I said, "Here's
what I'd like to do.
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I would like to defend employees
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who've religious objections
supporting labor unions."
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They basically said,
"Knock yourself out."
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You know, just get
whatever you can find,
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go ahead and litigate it.
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Have you found
from the beginning
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that there was
significant number
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of Adventists in these cases?
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You know from that prospective,
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this is a very big thing.
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But in the larger challenge
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with labor unions
is it just Adventists.
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Are there many others?
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No, in fact, this is
important part of this, Lincoln.
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Over the years,
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I've consistently
represented Adventists.
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There'll be one or two
every year that will come to me.
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But the vast majority
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of my clients
are not Adventists.
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You see when I started
litigating these cases in 1976,
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the only published cases
dealt with Seventh-day Adventist
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where the church
teaching that said,
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"Church members shouldn't
be members of labor unions."
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And Lee Boothby
was one of the critical
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lawyers that pioneered--
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He's a
Seventh-day Adventist lawyer.
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He's a
Seventh-day Adventist lawyer
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and he pioneered
these early cases
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for Seventh-day Adventist.
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When I came on the scene,
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I started to pioneer
an expansion of the law
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that would protect
employees of faith.
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For example, an
early case for me
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where I was helping out
was the council of record
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at the US
Supreme Court was a case
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Called IAM versus Boeing
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involved an employee
named, Josephine Nichols.
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Josephine Nichols held this--
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she held the
same religious beliefs
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as a Seventh-day Adventist.
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As she thought she
could not be a member
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of a labor union
anytime, anyplace, anywhere
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because their method of
dealing with the employer.
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She was not an Adventist.
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She wasn't even a
member of her own church.
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And so the case went
up and the question was,
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was she entitled to a
religious accommodation
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and the court said, 'Yes.'
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The United
States Court of Appeals
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for the Ninth
Circuit, said, 'Yes.'
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So that was the
first step to broaden the--
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Can I interject on this? Sure.
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On this to get a
religious accommodation.
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On most accommodation issues,
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I've understood
that it isn't necessary
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to have to prove that your
church holds that position.
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It's that you as a
matter of religious conscience
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or even just as a
matter of conscience
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feel that you cannot participate
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in this case for the
unions. Isn't that the case?
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That is a correct
statement of the law
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but see this
was part of the work
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that the foundation was funding
to pioneer that point. Yeah.
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Because if you talk to
some union officials today,
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they will say, "If you
have religious objections
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to supporting a union,
your church has to teach that."
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And the reason why they say
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that is that
there're a number of statutes
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in the United States,
which are unconstitutional.
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I've had at least two of
them declared unconstitutional.
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Which say, "Well, if
you're a member of a church,
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you're entitled to a
religious accommodation."
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That is a member of a church
which has teachings on unions.
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But if you're not,
you don't have protection.
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You know, the reason
you might not guessed
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why I asked that question,
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I think and we could
have another program about
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it that it's not
impossible down the line
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based on some of the dynamics
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that I see and not
least which the war on terror
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and some of the
things implied there.
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That the US may end
up doing in a defective
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if not a formal way
what Europe has done.
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And designate certain
mainline church positions
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as acceptable and
some off the table. Yes.
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And if it's then
only a matter of--
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if it has to be backed up
by a particular church belief
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that sounds okay now,
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but what if your
church is not recognized?
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What if the-- It's better
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when it's a matter
of personal conscience--
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That's-- And that
under the constitution
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that's to be respected.
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That's exactly
right, Lincoln. No question.
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The point--the focal point for
the issue of religious freedom
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should be what do I believe,
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not what does my church believe,
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what have I been instructed
and it's my conscience
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after all that's important.
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So Josephine Nichols was-- Yes.
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Sorry-- The first--no, no.
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This is important point.
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So Josephine Nichols
was the first step outside
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just protecting
Seventh-day Adventist.
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The next step was I
got a call from a fellow
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who was a Roman
Catholic and he said to me,
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"I've been fired because
I had religious objections
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to supporting the union."
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And so I said,
"Tell me about this
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because the Roman
Catholic Churches often viewed
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as being in favor of union."
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Well, certainly in
the Pope Benedict's
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fairly recent
document Caritas in Veritate,
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he goes out of his way to argue
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in favor of the
rights of union organization.
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I'm sure you're aware of that.
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Well, it's--I'm aware of
a number of the encyclicals
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and it's a much more
nuance issue than that.
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Well, he takes both sides.
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It's a document that
addresses capital and labor.
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It addresses sovereign
issues of national concern.
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It addresses people movements,
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economic collapse, and so on.
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And yes, the whole--
it's the whole spectrum.
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But it seems to me,
he does go out of his way
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to appear to be on the
side of the union cause.
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Being able to choose a union
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if you want to and
that it seems to me
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is a fundamental
American freedom.
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I mean, all of us
have the freedom to choose
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whatever church we
want to join and support.
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Everyone has a
freedom in the United States
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to choose what union
they want to join and support.
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It's not the same as
collective bargaining
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and exclusive representation
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where you block other
people from being hurt.
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But joining a union
is a fundamental right
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it seems to me
under the first amendment.
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You were
telling about this woman
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that was a reverent catholic.
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Well, let's talk
about the Catholic Church
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though a bit more.
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Catholic Church though says
in and this is the encyclicals
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called Longinqua
by Pope Leo XIII.
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There's another
called Rerum Novarum,
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which said in essence
that if you are a Catholic
00:10:36.98\00:10:41.35
and you want to
join a union that's fine.
00:10:41.36\00:10:44.21
But don't join a union,
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which compromises
fundamental moral principles.
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And I think what they were
talking about was Catholics
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who join labor unions
composed of Catholics.
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And so I think that,
that was the original point.
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So does that apply today?
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Here's the
problem for my client.
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The union that was
seeking to represent my client
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and ended up being
able to represent him
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was the National
Education Association
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which is the largest labor
union in the United States.
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And it stayed affiliate to
Michigan Education Association.
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The NEA is a
strong pro-abortion lobby.
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I mean it's very clear
that it promotes abortion,
00:11:21.48\00:11:26.12
it promotes gay marriage.
00:11:26.13\00:11:27.49
It promotes a number
of issues which, you know,
00:11:27.50\00:11:31.17
hit the radar of a lot
of conservative Christians.
00:11:31.18\00:11:35.50
Well, Catholics of
course, are pro-life
00:11:35.51\00:11:38.39
and so my Catholic guy was told
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that he had to
either join the NEA
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or pay its fees or be fired.
00:11:43.22\00:11:46.68
And when he found out, he
didn't know this at first.
00:11:46.69\00:11:48.93
When he found out that the
NEA was a pro-abortion lobby,
00:11:48.94\00:11:52.43
he said, "I can't do this."
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Now here's the part that
will amaze your audience.
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My guy was working
for a Jesuit University.
00:11:57.93\00:12:03.32
He was working for
the University of Detroit.
00:12:03.33\00:12:06.18
And the Jesuit said to him,
00:12:06.19\00:12:08.38
"You have to
either join this union,
00:12:08.39\00:12:10.77
pay its fees, or be fired."
00:12:10.78\00:12:12.66
And when he said, "No,
00:12:12.67\00:12:14.38
I am going to show allegiance
00:12:14.39\00:12:16.73
to the teachings of
the church on pro-life--
00:12:16.74\00:12:19.19
So this is a house
divided against itself.
00:12:19.20\00:12:21.19
That's right a Jesuit fired him.
00:12:21.20\00:12:24.23
I had the great joy of deposing
00:12:24.24\00:12:27.97
that Jesuit who fired him.
00:12:27.98\00:12:29.92
I went straight after that guy.
00:12:29.93\00:12:32.11
I was cross examining
him on the encyclicals and--
00:12:32.12\00:12:38.37
We will talk about more
00:12:38.38\00:12:39.54
of your
experiences after the break.
00:12:39.55\00:12:41.58
Please stay with us.
We'll be back shortly.
00:12:41.59\00:12:43.69