Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Bruce N. Cameron
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000165B
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00:03 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider. Before the break I
00:07 was discussing with guest Bruce Cameron a very interesting 00:12 dynamic that he's observed in Islamic expectations of the 00:17 Mahdi, the 12th Imam. 00:19 In fact you say it much better than I do. I call it Mahdi 00:22 because I'm less of a linguist obviously than you are, Lincoln. 00:28 But where we ended, we said all right this makes sense, if you 00:33 were Satan, to say this is when I will appear. So it seems to me 00:38 that Seventh-day Adventists should keep their eyes open 00:42 not simply to Sunday laws but maybe more importantly to the 00:47 false messiah's coming. 00:48 Well as importantly. I wouldn't want to diminish Sunday laws. 00:50 I mean we've been quite consistent from our early days 00:56 as Adventists and biblical exposition and study to see 01:00 probably the greatest test of loyalty to God over his 01:04 commandments and epitomize how we regard the Sabbath 01:08 that he's dedicated. Oh yeah I'm not... 01:10 But I think as an advanced sign and as a dynamic perhaps to even 01:14 bring in the final Sunday law with severe penalties something 01:19 like the appearance of the Mahdi could do it. 01:22 Precisely. I'm not challenging the eschatology. Exactly so 01:30 go ahead. Back to where you began. 01:33 Ahmadinejad the president of Iran twice now, you mentioned 01:38 one occasion, but twice he's gotten up at the U.N. and riffed 01:43 on about the Mahdi. There's something I think you know but 01:48 our viewers need to know, that it isn't just that there's an 01:54 expectation of him to come. That most Muslims understand. But an 02:00 extreme group that Ahmadinejad belongs to have taken the 02:04 deduction that you could apply to Christianity and the return 02:08 of Christ. But they actually have formalized this and it's 02:12 this way: Since the Mahdi is to come at a time of great chaos 02:16 when sort of everything is blowing up and it's the moment 02:20 of crisis and then he appears supernaturally. They believe 02:24 that you can create that moment and he will come. Now that's 02:27 different. Yes! We have a dialogue within the Adventist 02:31 church. I remember once I was preaching in Australia and I 02:34 quoted Ellen White saying that Christ could have come before 02:36 this and he's delayed for different reasons and one 02:40 important reason is his followers haven't yet made the 02:43 proclamation that's required to lighten the world with the 02:47 expectation of his coming before he comes. So there's a dynamic 02:50 there. I mean it's biblical. But that's a different story and 02:54 I think it's a little more toxic in this manipulation of the 02:59 Mahdi's coming where all you have to really do, well let's 03:03 get more than hypothetical, is send a nuclear bomb to destroy 03:08 Tel Aviv, probably not Jerusalem destroy Tel Aviv and the 03:12 resulting big bang will conjure up the Mahdi. 03:17 Well, Lincoln, that is precisely it. Where I was going with this 03:23 is to say, well if in fact the coming of the false messiah 03:28 brings in the end of days, it seems to me purely reasonable 03:32 that this could happen in 12 months because of the very 03:37 reasons that you are talking about. You have the President of 03:41 Iran invoking the coming of the Mahdi. Three weeks ago it came 03:46 out that Iran is now refining uranium to 20%. They used to say 03:51 we're doing this for energy production and a nuclear power 03:55 plant. That only takes 2 or 3% refinement. So they're now 04:01 working on weapons grade refining and this is their view: 04:06 That the Mahdi will come in all of this confusion and difficulty 04:10 and problems. So let's look at this from a Muslim's point of 04:14 view in the Middle East. What is going on? You've got nations of 04:19 the West invading Iraq, you've got them in Afghanistan, you 04:23 have this turmoil in Egypt where they think the United States was 04:27 behind the presidency of Mubarak and so you just feel like you're 04:31 under attack. There's a new Muslim film out that is believed 04:36 to either be produced by Iran or the friends of Iran and the 04:42 thesis of this is that the Mahdi comes in the middle of all these 04:45 problems, and the problems that they point out are what are 04:49 going on right now. And they say in this film the time for the 04:54 Mahdi, what we have waited for centuries for, is here, this is 05:00 now. I'm reading from the Shahe Muslim book, 41, number 6985; 05:05 it says this: The prophet said, meaning, of course, the prophet 05:09 Muhammad, the last hour would not come unless the Muslims will 05:13 fight against the Jews, and the Muslims will kill them until the 05:17 Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and the 05:20 stone or the tree would say, "Muslim" or "Servant of Allah, 05:24 there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. 05:28 " Well what's being said is that followers 05:32 of Allah will supernaturally be aided in 05:35 killing the Jews; trees will point out Jews, stones will 05:39 point out Jews. 05:40 As I remember that's a quote directly from the Quran. 05:43 It's in the second half. 05:44 So what have we got here. We've got a president of Iran whose 05:48 invoking the coming of the Mahdi and victory, a guy who is 05:52 refining nuclear weapons or uranium to 05:55 create nuclear weapons and this belief 05:58 that they will be supernaturally aided in 06:01 killing Jews which will usher in the coming of the Mahdi. 06:04 Yeah, it certainly gives you pause to think a little. 06:09 Now I need to 06:10 give some disclaimers. Many disclaimers. No I agree with you 06:13 but you know we need to cover our tracks a little. This is 06:17 a program for religious liberty. On the matter of religious 06:21 liberty we grant perfect for Muslims, Buddhists, Christians, 06:26 whatever, to believe and to practice. I think that should be 06:30 a given.. That is a given. I don't give 06:32 religious freedom to kill people 06:34 With religious freedom, we have every right to critique and 06:39 analyze other belief systems and in this case we're pointing out 06:43 not so much an error. From a Christian prophetic point of 06:48 I think there is a clear error here. But there's an expectation 06:54 there that's very dangerous in Islam. You know there's been 06:58 some false constructs over the years through Christianity in 07:02 the dark ages when the black death was around. There was all 07:06 sorts of apocalyptic movements within Christianity that were 07:10 fueled more by panic and observing their surroundings 07:15 and projecting it on Bible prophecy. You know we're not 07:20 opposed to Muslims nor do I believe that every Muslim thinks 07:24 exactly as Ahmadinejad. I would hope not. 07:28 Every Muslim that reads the Quran and the Hadis has a 07:32 certain affinity with that thinking just any Bible 07:36 believing Christian knows that Jesus said he would come back 07:40 again. But in this particular sect that Ahmadinejad represents 07:44 I think there is a toxic tendency to sort of make 07:48 prophecy come true. When I was listening to you talk and 07:52 present this I thought the Bible says about Jesus coming in the 07:56 fullness of time, the appropriate moment, and coming 08:00 up to the year 2000 I thought that that was a moment because 08:03 there were so many millennial expectations not just by 08:06 Christians but by many groups political and religious that I 08:10 thought something must happen. And the dynamic of antagonism 08:15 between the U.S. and Iran and as you say the Arab Spring and just 08:19 the breakout of revolutionary fervor, I think it's sort of 08:22 becoming self-fulfilling. Something is likely to happen 08:25 and this belief of the Iranians or at least an element within 08:31 the Iranians could quite quickly bring us into a huge military 08:37 conflict and then on a religious sense could usher in an 08:41 appearance by Satan himself with that great deception. 08:45 See I agree with you on this. The point is not to set dates, 08:51 the point is not to be an alarmist. The point is to say 08:54 look... Well we need to be sober minded about things and 08:56 face facts; not think well it's not going to happen. What did 08:59 the Bible say? All things have continued from the beginning. 09:02 They haven't. This is not business as usual. This is a 09:05 very aberrant time of history. 09:07 Especially when you look at this and you say we're in a box here. 09:11 How can we get out of the box? Well the United States and the 09:15 west are now trying to place sanctions on Iran to deter them. 09:18 I doubt that you're going to deter them from bringing in the 09:23 messiah. That's a very high goal But if you live in Israel, it 09:28 takes 10 minutes for a missile to come from Iran to Israel. 09:32 Are they going to take a chance on losing millions of their 09:37 citizens? No. We're at a very volatile 09:38 period of world's history and middle east's history 09:41 particularly and I do think what did Jesus say? When you see 09:44 these things begin to happen lift up your eyes because your 09:49 redemption draweth nigh. And a conflict on Sunday worship 09:54 whether it's instigated by American protestants, they could 09:58 well join with it, but more probably some divine personage 10:02 as it says really brings the test and you need to why you're 10:06 doing what you do and understand the basis of your faith. 10:10 One last thing, we're getting very close on time for this 10:13 program, believe it or not, Islam does not teach Sunday. 10:17 That's not a sacred day. This would be an important 10:21 pronouncement if this Mahdi said well reverence my day, Sunday, 10:26 wouldn't it? 10:27 See that is a big question mark in what I'm suggesting because 10:31 you say well if a Mahdi comes he will exalt Friday because that's 10:37 the day of worship for Islam. When Satan comes and 10:41 impersonates Christ, he's not going to say I'm the Mahdi. 10:45 He's going to say I'm the Mahdi plus I'm the messiah plus I'm 10:48 everyone's lord who has come. So what's he got? He's got 10:52 Friday, Saturday and Sunday to choose between. Is it so hard 10:56 to think that he'd choose Sunday That happened long ago when 11:01 the church was... But it's the day of the sun and 11:03 inherently man looks toward the sun as a source of energy and 11:11 power and so if a being comes just like Cortez and Pizarro 11:16 and the others came to their civilization, they were seen as 11:20 travelers from beyond the sun. I think it could appear the same 11:25 way. See that's it, that's it. 11:27 So what's the point here. The point here is not to say well 11:31 Islam is true, but if many Islamics believe this then the 11:36 bottom line is that we as Christians should say I need to 11:41 be alert. I need to read my Bible, I need to be ready, I 11:45 need to be looking for my Lord to return. That's the goal 11:49 it seems to me in pursuing this line of prophecy. 11:56 It's all too easy for Christians to forget sometimes at least 12:01 that being a Christian is all about Christ. I think for 12:07 Seventh-day Adventists that's a little harder to drift into that 12:11 direction because we are living in an expectant attitude of the 12:15 soon return of Jesus Christ. But it is worth remembering that 12:20 there are other groups that have an expectation if not of a 12:25 return, then of an appearance. This discussion of the Mahdi and 12:30 his return, albeit in association with the return 12:33 of Jesus, not the Christ, according to the Quran, should 12:38 be a sobering thought. We need to be in expectation of the true 12:43 return of the true Savior of the world. We need to recognize that 12:49 perhaps other expectations can create a false reality and 12:55 perhaps deceive many. We need to encourage others, 12:58 particularly our Muslim brothers and sisters around the world to 13:03 see the need not of a Mahdi but of a Savior, of a soon-returning 13:08 Jesus Christ in the clouds of glory. 13:13 For Liberty Insider this is Lincoln Steed |
Revised 2014-12-17