Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
This is a program bringing you
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discussion, up-to-date news
and views and information on
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religious liberty. My name is
Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty
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magazine and on this program
I have a very special guest,
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Professor Bruce Cameron, who
is the Reed-Larson professor at
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Regent University. Welcome Bruce
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Thank you Lincoln,
it's great to be here.
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I'm looking forward to our
discussion and privately we've
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talked about a lot of things but
you have some great experience
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and some great views. But let's
really jump in on a topic that
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our viewers might not expect.
Since 9/11 the United States has
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had a crash course in
understanding Islam. Wasn't it
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Mark Twain that made the comment
that foreign wars are God's way
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of teaching
geography to Americans.
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Well I have certainly
learned geography since then.
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There's geography but maybe
the foreign wars also, or 9/11,
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is also God's way of teaching a
little of the theology of other
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belief systems to people in
North America. I know you have
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opinions on this and let's pick
it up with the United Nations.
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Okay. Well there's an amazing
video clip of the president of
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Iran addressing the United
Nations and he is invoking
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the coming of the Mahdi and
saying may he be given health
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and victory. And so you look
at that and you say the Mahdi
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what is the Mahdi. Well
I have had, it seems, these
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information bombs ping on my
head for a number of years now
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about this issue of the Mahdi.
So I finally got serious about
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looking at this.
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Had you known before when
you first heard him say that?
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Did it resonate with you?
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No, no. So you
were like most of the
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viewers because I know at the
time the media didn't understand
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it. They just said he went on
and on for 20 minutes about some
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obscure Islamic theology
that didn't resonate with them.
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It did with me because I'd
studied history. I remember
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General Gordon in Khartoum. You
know that old story back in the
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heyday of the British empire.
The whole modern British army
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was destroyed by the Mahdi's
army the guy that believed
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that he was the Mahdi.
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Yes, yes. Well here's the reason
why it became important to me.
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I had been litigating religious
liberty issues for more than
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three decades now and what
is the traditional Seventh-day
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Adventist view about the end
of days? We say, well we'll know
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that the end of days are
about to arrive when there is a
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national Sunday law. Well,
we had books in our ABC's, you
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read articles...
Adventist Book Centers
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Adventist Book Centers,
yes. It's not the happy hour
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beverage control. We
encourage people. You know
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there's some wonderful Christian
books that are sold in Adventist
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Book Centers in most of the
states in the United States.
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Well, that is right. In fact
I recently had a fellow send me
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a book for review hoping I would
comment on it favorably and the
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thesis of the book was that
Sunday laws were increasing in
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the United States. The problem
is it's just not true. They are
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diminishing. I mean in the field
of religious liberty litigation
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today in the United States
Sunday laws don't even raise a
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blip. I mean there truly are
not any cases of any importance
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going on. That's
true. I often tell
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Adventists that we know of no
direct Sunday legislation in the
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pipeline. But there are
troubling examples in North
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Dakota. They have a new Sunday
oriented blue law that is a
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little troubling that we think
derives from this new movement
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in Europe to designate Sunday as
a family rest day that's sort of
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Sunday law light. But in the
classic sense, you're absolutely
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right. I mean
overall it's absolutely
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diminishing. So you say
well should I believe we're not
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living close to the end of
times? I changed my mind when
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I started looking at this Mahdi
issue. If you look at the Bible,
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Jesus tells us in Matthew 24
that when he comes he will come
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like lightening from east to
the west, but he says that there
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will be false messiahs.
Don't go out into the desert.
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Right, right, don't go into the
room, don't do these things and
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so why is he saying that? The
implication is that there will
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be a messiah who will be
imitating him and will in fact
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make people think this is
the second coming. Paul is more
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specific about this. In 2
Thessalonians chapter 2 Paul
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says Jesus will not come until
there is a false messiah who
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performs signs and wonders; that
this will either be Satan or
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Satan's creature, his figure,
that proclaims that they're the
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messiah and brings about then
the end of days because Jesus
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comes shortly thereafter.
It's the antichrist, absolutely.
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Denies that Christ
has come in the flesh.
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So then I started looking
at what Ellen White was saying
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about this and Ellen White
says in chapter 39 of The Great
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Controversy... Now we
often mention Ellen White
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on this program. Ellen White
is a visionary and one of the
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founders of the
Seventh-day Adventist church.
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That's right. The Seventh-day
Adventist church's eschatology
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with regard to Sunday laws is
pinned on her. I mean, I think
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an argument can be made based
on the Bible, but she is very
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explicit about this and what
she says about this is that this
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false messiah, this Satan/anti-
Christ figure will in fact say
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that there must be a world
wide Sunday law and then she
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says, ah Sunday sacredness, and
then she says that Christendom
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will follow along and impose it.
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And that is the term she uses
and I think I've mentioned it on
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this program before. Globally
there'll be something big going
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on, but as far as the effective
meaning of the Sunday law, it's
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in Christendom,
the Christian world.
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I mean that's the area where
you would expect a Sunday law.
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But the most remarkable
thing about this, that is her
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description of this false
messiah, this makes it a world
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wide event. I'm always concerned
about Americans naval gazing
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and thinking that they're the
center of the universe and so it
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seems to me a bit arrogant
to say well Sunday laws in the
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United States would be important
for Christians worldwide, but
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a false messiah proclaiming this
worldwide would certainly be
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something. So I say, all right,
if I'm looking for the signs,
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the end of days, maybe I
shouldn't be looking for Sunday
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laws. Maybe I should be looking
for a false messiah. Now that is
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what triggered my extraordinary
fascination with Muslim doctrine
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about the Muslim messiah. Most
Christians are probably unaware
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of the fact that Muslim
eschatology has a messiah that
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comes at the end of days, the
day of resurrection, and this
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Messiah's name is the Mahdi. In
fact, he's called the 12th Imam.
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If you're reading Revelation, if
you know about Revelation, you
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know that the seven churches
in Revelation not only reflect
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actual churches but they also
demark eras of Christianity.
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That's right. They mark off the
progress of Christianity. Islam
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has a very similar concept. They
demark the history of Islam by
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these Imams. Imam is a teacher.
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It's not something that grew up
in Islam; they take it directly
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from the pronouncements of
Mohammad. He said that this end
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of days would be in the coming
of the 12th Imam and the Imam
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was the ruler of
Islam. He was the first Imam.
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Right, right. He was
the first Imam, right.
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So and his successors are well
designated and there's been more
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that 12 but there's a convenient
treatment of the 12th Imam, and
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I forget his actual name. But
it's said by most Muslims that
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he did not die, that he
was spiritually taken away.
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Oh, that's right, occultation.
In fact, I'll talk about that in
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just a minute. But here's
the point about the 12th Imam;
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the 12th Imam is the end of
days. He brings in the end of
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the world. He is the world wide
lord and this is also called the
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Mahdi. Now you mentioned he was
taken away. Islam believes that
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the Mahdi was born. He's
got a very long name that would
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challenge me to say it,
but we'll call him the Mahdi.
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The Mahdi was born more than
a thousand years ago and when
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he was five years old his father
was killed. This was a trigger
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event in his life because he
was then supernaturally taken
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into what Muslims call
occultation. I'm not sure I'm
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correctly pronouncing it,
but it's essentially the Muslim
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version of cold storage. That
means he's off some place just
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sort of existing and at the
end of days he will come as this
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lord, as this messiah, and Jesus
will be come with him, right.
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Islam believes in Jesus. They
just don't believe that he's God
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he's one of the prophets. So
yes, this is a well understood
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teaching particularly in
the sharia branch of Islam, the
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Shiites. Right,
right Shia and Sunni.
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Shiites say yes that Jesus will
come with him so he will come
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to kill the Jews, tell
Christians they should convert
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or die and Jesus will be there
as a handy testament that in
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fact all of us Christians
are wrong and there's Jesus to
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explain our error in our
thinking. So okay, that is
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Islamic eschatology and I think
this is well understood in Islam
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and this is precisely what the
president of Iran was talking
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about. He was talking about the
coming of the Mahdi. So okay.
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This is logic time and this is
where people can disagree with
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me and say Bruce this either
does or does not make sense.
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If you were Satan and you were
looking down through the ages
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and you knew that Jesus had
said that there would be a false
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messiah and you know that Paul
had been very clear about the
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fact that Satan would
impersonate the second coming,
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what do you do? I mean if you...
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It's a logical fit to what
probably you'd expect to happen.
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Well the mask has been ripped
off. So anyone that reads the
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Bible would say well there's
going to be a false messiah.
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So I would do two things.
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And it neatly joins
Islamic expectations with false
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Christian expectations.
Yes! See that's the thing. You
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know you have to either tell
people the Bible is nonsense or
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encourage them not to read it,
not to take it seriously. Those
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people would believe what they
see rather than what they read
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in the Bible. Then if you have
a worldwide religion that is in
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fact looking forward to a
messiah figure, not Jesus, it
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seems to be the perfect
thing. This is precisely
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what I would do if I were Satan.
That's the twin strategy that I
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would pursue. So
where are we now?
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We're 20 some seconds before
the break. I'm listening more
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than usual but I've spoken about
this myself a little and it's
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wonderful to hear this presented
but let's discuss it a little
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more after the break. We'll
be back after a few seconds to
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continue this discussion of a
certain messianic expectation.
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