Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the
program that will bring you
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up-to-date news, views,
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and discussion on
religious liberty events
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and developments
in the United States
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and also around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed
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and I'm the editor
of Liberty Magazine
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and the host of this program
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and my guest is Dr.
John Graz. Hi, Lincoln.
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Head of the Public Affairs
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and Religious Liberty Department
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for the world headquarters
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of the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
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as well as few other things.
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You know, even I
love discussing history,
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at least I love
discussing with you
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and I know we can
get quite into it.
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I think somewhat
apocryphal story of Rome
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burning as a result of
some sort of civil disturbance.
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And the Emperor Nero fiddling,
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playing his instrument
rather casually as it burned
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and then afterwards this
is the matter of history.
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We know, that he
blamed the Christians
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as somehow inciting or
starting igniting the fire
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with no evidence
that we can even find
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as we look back. Sure.
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Have you noticed
how easy it is in arrear
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we have thousands of years,
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almost removed from that
or getting on for 2000 years?
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But-- But it means we
need to find guilty people.
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We need to find guilty and--
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And this is what
the case of Nero.
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You know he
needed to show to people
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that he was not behind
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because the rumors were
spread about him being behind
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because he wanted
to build a new city.
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That's clearly what
he used the event for.
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He had an agenda.
Yeah, he had an agenda.
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And he had to defend himself
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because it became
very, very dangerous for him
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and he had to
find a group of people
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who were very-- who
were not very popular,
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the Christian
were not and to say
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these are these
people, they are terrorists,
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they're dangerous people.
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They want to put down our empire
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and we have to arrest them.
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These are the guilty party.
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We have to really to condemn
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and to kill to execute
them, to liquidate them.
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I know it is the fact of history
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that dynamic was at work.
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And we living
through history now
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and I try to observe things
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and see parallels
to how human beings
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have acted at other times.
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And it seems undeniable to me.
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Since 9/11 or starting
with the events of 9/11,
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a real panic happened,
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but there're many players
with many different agendas.
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And I get the distinct feeling
there are certain elements
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even within democratic
regimes like the United States.
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That might not see
themselves cynical,
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but they have a
prior felt need to bring
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certain restrictions in,
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and this panic is conveniently
given the moment for that.
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And it would just be
a matter of observation,
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but for the fact
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there is a religious
element on this conflict.
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And I feel very
concerned that first of all--
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Muslims generally
in the United States
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come under a cloud
where they can be swept up
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in the anti-terrorism laws
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and as this panic
continues and more and more
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extreme applications with a need
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to ferret out the
enemy within are applied.
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We might find that other people
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who have either religious views
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or religious/political views
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that are out of the norm
of even a western democracy
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might have if
not a severe penalty
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might have a sort of gimlet
gaze of a government system
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descend on them and wrongly
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see them as the
starters of the fire.
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Yeah, you know we
saw that in Europe
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just about twenty--
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fifteen years
ago, twenty years ago.
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When you know the European
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started to fight against
cults and sect and so on.
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Where they even produced a list,
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you know an official
list of dangerous sect--
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In France in particular.
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In France, Belgium,
some things like that,
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you know, Austria,
and some other country
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where really the
target really just minorities.
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And as you cannot
study 300 or more groups,
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you know, you simplify.
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And at the end,
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you know you create a
kind of attack on group,
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which has nothing to
do with being dangerous.
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They are just different.
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And you establish,
you set up a profile.
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If you're member of
this group or another group,
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you are becoming
dangerous for the state.
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There is no proof,
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but they've no
time to investigate
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and they put you on the list.
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And being on the list,
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you become
dangerous for all people.
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And you become a
kind of guilty side
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and if something happens,
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something bad happen,
people will look at you.
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You are the responsible.
You're the guilty side.
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We've to solve
the problem with you.
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You've gotten to my
concern in a nutshell
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and something happened recently
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or development in
U.S. government recently,
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so that brings it
to the floor again.
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It would seem very pedestrian,
but toward the end of 2011,
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military appropriations build,
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actually the
defense authorization act
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went through the
senate and at this moment
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as I record this hasn't
yet gone through the congress
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and it's just mundane stuff.
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I read it or read parts
of it, very long document.
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It deals with weapons systems,
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about discrimination
or defending against
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discrimination in the
arm forces themselves,
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integrating guys and so on.
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But then I
forgot the item numbers,
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but there's too little,
two or three paragraph sections
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that have been
discussed a lot in the media.
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And I say
something to the effect
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that the war on
terrorism now is to involve
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the whole world
including the homeland.
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And that the military
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when directed are to detain
indefinitely without trial
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for as long as
they want indefinitely.
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Anybody that they
suspect including citizens
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and that's an amazing provision,
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which if you allow
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the good intention
of a democratic state
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which has a constitution
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and other
specific antedated laws
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that would counter that,
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but if so
inclined in an emergency
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it lays the
groundwork for exactly
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what we're talking about.
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Certainly Muslims, but also
out of the normal mainstream,
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say Christians,
and other religionist
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who perhaps have given
the charities that have some--
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Connection. Loose connection
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with what the
government is unhappy with.
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Maybe gone on a website,
that sort of creates a profile
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that you have an
interest in certain things.
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It could be rounded up by
the military for no cause,
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but you don't have a
trial, you don't have a charge,
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which are against
all the western norms.
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You know, when you have
the situation of crisis,
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it has always been
difficult to maintain really a
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good protection for freedom.
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Because humanly speaking
that's not easy to serve you.
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On one side you
need to protect citizen
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and they ask to be protected.
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The other side you
have to keep freedom,
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but how can you keep--
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it mean there is a
tension and sometime you know
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because the crisis is strong
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and the pressure of the
public opinion is strong too,
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you have to take responsibility
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and very often you know,
you arrest the wrong people
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or you persecute
the wrong people.
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Because you need
to come with result
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and this is why we
have to be really careful.
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Absolutely and we're dealing
with fine art human bodies
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whether it's in
the United States,
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France, or any--
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or if that matter
in the Middle East
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with good
intentions, people are fallible.
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They are not all knowing,
but when you create a panic,
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when the enemy is seen within,
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the battleground is the homeland
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as they are saying here
for the first time legally,
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anything could
happen and it troubles me.
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There's a quote
that I wrote down
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from somebody
writing online the other day
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and I thought
this was very good.
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He says, actually it was--
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they attributed to
Commander William Adama.
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Don't know who that is.
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Whether it's
made up name or not.
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But he says, "there's a reason
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you separate
military and the police.
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One fights the
enemies of the state
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the other serves
and protects the people.
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When military becomes both,
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then the enemies of the state
tend to become the people."
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I'm hoping that
doesn't develop in our time.
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But as I say,
religion is the not invisible
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but the often
unacknowledged element of this.
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Yeah, and problem
also you know you have--
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you have the pressure of
the people on the authorities.
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Always, here the people
say we need to have result.
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We need to be more protected.
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And of course you know,
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that's not easy as I
said to find a solution
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and you have to
show the people that yes,
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you will do something.
You are protecting them.
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You have to arrest people
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because you have to show
that you are really doing it.
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You know, in
some part of the world
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like in Central Asia,
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you have less and less
religious freedom today.
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We had more
religious freedom 20 years ago.
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Now it's more and more difficult
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especially for
religious minority, why?
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Because you know
the government said,
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we have to protect from--
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religious radical
terrorist, religious terrorists.
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But they cannot
say just on this side,
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just on the Muslim are a danger.
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They have to
prove also to the people
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that you know they're looking
also toward the Christian
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and of course
looking to the Christian
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they take the small minorities.
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And the small minorities
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are becoming
labeled dangerous. Why?
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Because they're small minority,
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not because
they're really dangerous.
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Yeah, and I don't believe
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that generally
speaking this is done
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with any sort of
official malice toward groups.
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It's just that you
create a legal hazard like this
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where the sort of an
indiscriminate suspicion,
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people are gonna be
rounded up for things
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that normally the
state should smile upon even.
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I think the U.S. at
least pays good lip service
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still to individual
initiative for people.
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That the internet is not
like China or other places.
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It is periodically
shutdown. It's opened.
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But I know that we
likely come to a stage
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where since
everything can be tracked,
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your internet activities,
your travel and all the rest
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could create a sort
of a damning profile
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that could mesh
nicely with this idea.
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Will this person
show any interest
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in this level of activity?
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Or you know even
just one of the find out
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about Jihadism for example.
00:11:01.40\00:11:04.46
Most people are
not very curious,
00:11:04.47\00:11:05.85
but curiosity
shouldn't be a crime.
00:11:05.86\00:11:08.12
And I'm afraid that
we're heading toward a conflict
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where it, of course it
blurs the civil behavior
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and the religious behavior.
00:11:16.79\00:11:17.85
But we're at all could sort
of create a funny construct.
00:11:17.86\00:11:21.12
The other day
someone e-mailed me
00:11:21.13\00:11:22.85
when they knew that
this law looked like
00:11:22.86\00:11:25.34
it was going
through with this bill.
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With basically changes
in the law and they said,
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sounds good to me.
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So I blipped them
back and I said well,
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maybe when there is
some violent incident
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at a shopping mall near you
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and the military
detail comes through
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your neighborhood
hunting for someone
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that have got a tip on.
And your neighbor says oh,
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you know, that person
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I know that they're
a bit out of the norm,
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they say religious ---
00:11:50.51\00:11:52.13
They go to church on Saturday.
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Yeah, I said and they
round you up and said,
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well, maybe we'll
come to you for advice
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and see if you can
bail us out of the stockade.
00:11:57.71\00:11:59.96
Yeah, this is you
know, what you say--
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Yeah, I think it could
be a chain of causality
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that nobody
really is picking on you.
00:12:03.75\00:12:05.80
But you just sort of swept
up in the general suspicion.
00:12:05.81\00:12:08.99
Yeah, and this you know,
people always believe that
00:12:09.00\00:12:12.18
I'm not concerned.
00:12:12.19\00:12:13.73
You know, but, yeah,
when religious freedom
00:12:13.74\00:12:16.37
when you have less
freedom, we're all concerned.
00:12:16.38\00:12:19.11
That's my view with it.
00:12:19.12\00:12:21.20
I know that the
intent of this law
00:12:21.21\00:12:23.39
is to zero in on
certain radical Islamists
00:12:23.40\00:12:27.82
who have a Jihadist view
00:12:27.83\00:12:29.13
and I'm not
comfortable with them at all.
00:12:29.14\00:12:31.08
But to change the
whole social legal construct
00:12:31.09\00:12:35.35
to sweep a few
people within us into a net
00:12:35.36\00:12:38.33
is very dangerous, I think.
00:12:38.34\00:12:39.91
And religious
freedom and civil liberties
00:12:39.92\00:12:42.35
depend upon keeping an open mind
00:12:42.36\00:12:44.66
and as open a
system as possible.
00:12:44.67\00:12:46.35
Not the tightest system
00:12:46.36\00:12:47.59
as possible to
filter everyone out is open.
00:12:47.60\00:12:50.06
Anyhow we've come to
the need for a break.
00:12:51.58\00:12:53.71
We'll be back after a moment
00:12:53.72\00:12:55.37
and we'll continue
this but maybe branch off
00:12:55.38\00:12:57.75
into some other
areas too. Thank you.
00:12:57.76\00:13:00.18
One hundred years, a
long time to do anything,
00:13:07.84\00:13:11.64
much less publish a magazine,
but this year "Liberty,"
00:13:11.65\00:13:15.76
the Seventh-day Adventist
voice of religious freedom
00:13:15.77\00:13:18.49
celebrates 100 years of
doing what it does best,
00:13:18.50\00:13:22.08
collecting,
analyzing, and reporting
00:13:22.09\00:13:24.61
the ebb and flow of religious
expression around the world.
00:13:24.62\00:13:28.33
Issue after
issue, Liberty has taken
00:13:28.34\00:13:30.96
on the tough assignments.
00:13:30.97\00:13:32.30
Tracking down threats to
religious freedom and exposing
00:13:32.31\00:13:35.10
the work of the devil in
every corner of the globe.
00:13:35.11\00:13:38.19
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:38.20\00:13:40.92
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom issues
00:13:40.93\00:13:43.80
sequestered within
the Church community
00:13:43.81\00:13:45.31
itself have been
clearly and honestly exposed.
00:13:45.32\00:13:49.14
Liberty exists for one purpose,
00:13:49.15\00:13:51.19
to help God's people maintain
that all important separation
00:13:51.20\00:13:55.12
of church and state
while recognizing the dangers
00:13:55.13\00:13:58.22
inherent in such a struggle.
00:13:58.23\00:14:00.46
During the past century,
00:14:00.47\00:14:01.67
Liberty has experienced
challenges of it's own,
00:14:01.68\00:14:04.37
but it remains on the job.
00:14:04.38\00:14:06.40
Thanks to the inspired
leadership of a long line
00:14:06.41\00:14:09.20
of dedicated Adventist editors,
00:14:09.21\00:14:10.91
three of whom represent almost
00:14:10.92\00:14:12.16
half of the
publications' existence
00:14:12.17\00:14:14.38
and the foresight of a
little woman from New England.
00:14:14.39\00:14:17.65
One hundred years of struggle,
100 years of victories,
00:14:17.66\00:14:21.91
religious freedom isn't
just about political machines
00:14:21.92\00:14:25.06
and cultural prejudices.
00:14:25.07\00:14:26.78
It's about people fighting
for the right to serve the God
00:14:26.79\00:14:30.78
they love as their hearts
and the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:30.79\00:14:35.03
Thanks to the
prayers and generous support
00:14:35.04\00:14:37.10
of Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere.
00:14:37.11\00:14:39.40
Liberty will continue
to accomplish its work
00:14:39.41\00:14:41.75
of providing timely information,
00:14:41.76\00:14:43.42
spirit filled inspiration,
and heaven sent encouragement
00:14:43.43\00:14:46.79
to all who long to live
and work in a world bound
00:14:46.80\00:14:51.19
together by the God ordained
bonds of religious freedom.
00:14:51.20\00:14:55.46
Welcome back to
The Liberty Insider,
00:15:05.81\00:15:07.39
Before the break with guest
Dr. Graz, I was riffing on.
00:15:07.40\00:15:12.34
This is the best way I
could put to about a troubling
00:15:12.35\00:15:15.76
addition to a
military appropriations bill.
00:15:15.77\00:15:18.92
And I don't want to panic anyone
00:15:18.93\00:15:21.56
and you know and
try to characterize
00:15:21.57\00:15:22.82
the United States of some,
00:15:22.83\00:15:24.58
you know, but even
that sounds better,
00:15:24.59\00:15:26.59
Banana Republic or,
you know, out their regime.
00:15:26.60\00:15:28.74
But it does illustrate to
me with a very real threat
00:15:28.75\00:15:32.14
that is panicked
even the legislators.
00:15:32.15\00:15:35.50
How we can be overzealous
to protect against that threat
00:15:35.51\00:15:38.68
and create an even larger threat
00:15:38.69\00:15:40.51
I think to religious
and civil expression.
00:15:40.52\00:15:42.88
Which would be very bad
00:15:42.89\00:15:44.13
because still the U.S. is the--
00:15:44.14\00:15:46.06
I should say almost the
only country around the world,
00:15:46.07\00:15:49.61
which is really still
defend religious freedom.
00:15:49.62\00:15:52.63
You know, putting
religious freedom in the agenda
00:15:52.64\00:15:55.53
when they have
meeting with other government.
00:15:55.54\00:15:58.03
You don't have
that with other country.
00:15:58.04\00:16:00.03
They don't care
about religious freedom.
00:16:00.04\00:16:01.89
But still in America, you know,
00:16:01.90\00:16:03.40
the government
and the institution
00:16:03.41\00:16:05.85
are still
considering religious freedom
00:16:05.86\00:16:08.73
as part of the
heritage of the republic.
00:16:08.74\00:16:11.45
And of course if one day,
00:16:11.46\00:16:13.87
you know, we can imagine
if one day the U.S. give up
00:16:13.88\00:16:17.28
these principles
of religious freedom,
00:16:17.29\00:16:19.82
it would be a disaster--
For the great rollback.
00:16:19.83\00:16:22.11
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
00:16:22.12\00:16:23.25
I don't see any other countries,
00:16:23.26\00:16:24.92
you know, who can say that
00:16:24.93\00:16:26.10
this is part of our heritage.
00:16:26.11\00:16:28.04
You have other countries
around the world like Brazil.
00:16:28.05\00:16:31.61
Like some other countries
00:16:31.62\00:16:33.13
where you know, you've really
a lot of religious freedom.
00:16:33.14\00:16:36.65
But it's not part
really of their heritage
00:16:36.66\00:16:39.33
from the
beginning of the history.
00:16:39.34\00:16:41.52
In America the difference is,
00:16:41.53\00:16:43.47
when you go back to the pioneer
00:16:43.48\00:16:45.20
you see religious freedom.
00:16:45.21\00:16:46.76
When you go back to the origin
00:16:46.77\00:16:48.38
of the history of the republic,
00:16:48.39\00:16:50.05
you have religious freedom.
00:16:50.06\00:16:51.91
It has not been
a fight you know,
00:16:51.92\00:16:53.92
a battle where people
were killed for their religion.
00:16:53.93\00:16:56.67
It has been
accepted from the beginning.
00:16:56.68\00:16:58.91
In other countries
00:16:58.92\00:17:00.18
it was the
result of religious wars
00:17:00.19\00:17:03.01
of a lot of crimes and so on.
00:17:03.02\00:17:05.12
That's makes
things very difficult.
00:17:05.13\00:17:06.55
Yeah, it's a very
different historical dynamic.
00:17:06.56\00:17:08.21
And I agree with you absolutely,
00:17:09.15\00:17:11.16
of course almost the flipside
00:17:11.17\00:17:13.46
of what you're saying about
the present strong leadership
00:17:13.47\00:17:15.82
of the U.S. for
religious and civil freedoms
00:17:15.83\00:17:18.60
is that when the
U.S. gets it wrong
00:17:18.61\00:17:20.74
that wrong model
gets picked up, yeah.
00:17:20.75\00:17:22.65
And so as the U.S. in
an overzealous effort,
00:17:22.66\00:17:25.90
I think on
occasion maybe restricts
00:17:25.91\00:17:29.87
the potential for freedom.
00:17:29.88\00:17:31.37
And that would be picked up.
00:17:31.38\00:17:32.67
I heard a very interesting
debate recently on the B.B.C.
00:17:32.68\00:17:37.27
said the Doha Debate.
00:17:37.28\00:17:38.56
So I think it was from Doha.
00:17:38.57\00:17:39.89
Because a lot of Middle
Easterners participated,
00:17:39.90\00:17:42.07
wonderful debate.
00:17:42.08\00:17:43.07
And they were representatives
of the Syrian government
00:17:43.08\00:17:45.57
and they made
very direct parallels
00:17:45.58\00:17:48.38
to what they're doing
00:17:48.39\00:17:49.74
and things that are being
done in the past to the U.S.
00:17:49.75\00:17:51.71
to restrict
violent demonstrations.
00:17:51.72\00:17:57.47
And they said, do you think
00:17:57.48\00:17:58.47
the United States would standby
00:17:58.48\00:18:00.43
when people were
trying to by violence
00:18:00.44\00:18:02.24
and bring down the government?
00:18:02.25\00:18:03.24
Well that sounds
good on the surface.
00:18:03.25\00:18:05.70
Other differences,
00:18:05.71\00:18:07.03
what is the regime
trying to perpetuate?
00:18:07.04\00:18:09.19
And I do think the United
States as a liberal democracy,
00:18:09.20\00:18:12.98
is protecting something
far more worth protecting.
00:18:12.99\00:18:16.30
But we need to
recognize that all human systems
00:18:16.31\00:18:20.25
when challenged tend to
revert to fairly extreme--
00:18:20.26\00:18:23.22
And one of the-- And
we need to resist there.
00:18:23.23\00:18:24.76
One of the factor
of a new factor today
00:18:24.77\00:18:27.52
about religious freedom
and the level of the U.S.
00:18:27.53\00:18:30.65
as defending religious
freedom around the world is,
00:18:30.66\00:18:33.22
you know, the presence
00:18:33.23\00:18:34.74
and the influence of the
U.S. is going down today,
00:18:34.75\00:18:38.84
unfortunately for human
right and religious freedom
00:18:38.85\00:18:41.66
is going down and down.
00:18:41.67\00:18:43.72
It means you don't have--
00:18:43.73\00:18:45.23
and when you go
to the United Nation,
00:18:45.24\00:18:46.89
you can see that.
00:18:46.90\00:18:47.89
You know, China is
the number 1 probably.
00:18:47.90\00:18:50.29
Then you've all the other
new countries and altogether,
00:18:50.30\00:18:53.71
you know they are very
strong and it means that,
00:18:53.72\00:18:57.18
it's more and more
difficult for the U.S.
00:18:57.19\00:18:58.95
to defend to put
religious freedom
00:18:58.96\00:19:00.73
on the top as a
priority because you know,
00:19:00.74\00:19:03.93
they don't have the power,
00:19:03.94\00:19:07.17
the influence
they had in the past.
00:19:07.18\00:19:09.45
Or even the
security that comes from
00:19:09.46\00:19:11.51
financial and
trade strength. Oh, yeah.
00:19:11.52\00:19:13.49
You know, when you have--
00:19:13.50\00:19:14.79
you need the billion
dollars to pay to the China.
00:19:14.80\00:19:17.37
You cannot say to China,
00:19:17.38\00:19:18.46
"Hey, you have to
follow what we believe."
00:19:18.47\00:19:20.09
I think that's in a
nutshell why Hillary Clinton
00:19:20.10\00:19:22.16
who's generally I think
has done the right things.
00:19:22.17\00:19:25.89
But early on, she told China
00:19:25.90\00:19:28.08
that they wouldn't be putting
00:19:28.09\00:19:30.54
human rights top of the agenda.
00:19:30.55\00:19:32.59
Of course you're little off
to the side because we need--
00:19:32.60\00:19:34.90
Because China will
pay your debts first.
00:19:34.91\00:19:36.88
Yes, so I think
there's a compromising
00:19:36.89\00:19:38.89
dynamic the
country is needed to be--
00:19:38.90\00:19:41.21
But in spite of that Lincoln,
00:19:41.22\00:19:42.61
I think really we should
you know if the U.S. should
00:19:42.62\00:19:45.61
keep their
tradition, their heritage,
00:19:45.62\00:19:48.62
because this heritage of freedom
00:19:48.63\00:19:51.20
made the U.S. as a big
power, as a great power
00:19:51.21\00:19:54.58
and when you're great power,
00:19:54.59\00:19:56.52
but you've nothing
to share with other,
00:19:56.53\00:19:58.44
just money, you're
no longer a great power.
00:19:58.45\00:20:01.04
Has to be a moral vision.
00:20:01.05\00:20:02.52
You've to-- yes,
and also you know
00:20:02.53\00:20:05.44
we should not
underestimate the principle
00:20:05.45\00:20:10.49
or the value of freedom.
00:20:10.50\00:20:12.19
Many million, billion
people are living in country
00:20:12.20\00:20:14.80
where they have no freedom
00:20:14.81\00:20:17.19
or they believe they
don't have a freedom.
00:20:17.20\00:20:19.13
For them when they hear,
00:20:19.14\00:20:21.28
they hear
someone or a government
00:20:21.29\00:20:23.84
defending the
principle of freedom,
00:20:23.85\00:20:26.01
religious freedom,
freedom of expression,
00:20:26.02\00:20:28.21
like it is something fabulous
that they dream about that.
00:20:28.22\00:20:32.29
Even if they have no voice
00:20:32.30\00:20:34.32
because they have no freedom,
00:20:34.33\00:20:35.79
we should not
forget that they exist
00:20:35.80\00:20:37.98
and they're million and million,
00:20:37.99\00:20:39.49
million around the world--
00:20:39.50\00:20:40.66
U.S. represents the
last great hope for mankind.
00:20:40.67\00:20:43.65
Some famous person is,
but I think that's very true.
00:20:43.66\00:20:46.42
And I know prophetically
Seventh-day Adventist
00:20:46.43\00:20:50.39
pick up from
Daniel and Revelation
00:20:50.40\00:20:52.09
the very end of
the whole human story
00:20:52.10\00:20:55.64
powers like the United
States and perhaps a power
00:20:55.65\00:20:59.00
called the United
States might descend
00:20:59.01\00:21:01.12
into some sort of
religious repression.
00:21:01.13\00:21:04.59
But we haven't
reached that point yet.
00:21:04.60\00:21:06.30
And until we get there
00:21:06.31\00:21:07.68
I think we need to cry foul
00:21:07.69\00:21:09.38
whenever it looks like it might.
00:21:09.39\00:21:10.38
And it's a sin. You
know, it's a sin for us.
00:21:10.83\00:21:12.83
It's a sin for us
00:21:12.84\00:21:13.83
and as
individual and as a church.
00:21:13.84\00:21:16.70
You know the fight,
00:21:16.71\00:21:18.22
the battle for
religious freedom,
00:21:18.23\00:21:20.10
it's a great
opportunity to assure
00:21:20.11\00:21:23.35
and to share with
people where we are.
00:21:23.36\00:21:25.65
You know, in this
battle for religious freedom,
00:21:25.66\00:21:28.20
there are two sides you know.
00:21:28.21\00:21:29.39
You're on the side of God
who gave religious freedom
00:21:29.40\00:21:33.64
and on the side of
the enemy of the devil
00:21:33.65\00:21:36.91
who oppressed
people, who persecute people.
00:21:36.92\00:21:40.15
And you know, it's a matter
00:21:40.16\00:21:41.56
where do you want to be
and even if we are persecuted,
00:21:41.57\00:21:45.61
you know, it's good to
be persecuted for the right.
00:21:45.62\00:21:49.09
Oh, for the right thing.
00:21:49.10\00:21:50.27
For the right thing.
00:21:50.28\00:21:51.51
You and I have
spoken about this--
00:21:51.52\00:21:52.83
You give a
message at the same time.
00:21:52.84\00:21:54.04
I run the risk when I was
talking to religious groups
00:21:54.05\00:21:56.53
about religious liberty saying
00:21:56.54\00:21:58.33
that we can't expect the
religious liberty department
00:21:58.34\00:22:00.58
to remove all difficulties
00:22:00.59\00:22:01.94
from holding a
particular faith for you.
00:22:01.95\00:22:04.37
Jesus said all
who live a godly life
00:22:04.38\00:22:07.06
will suffer
persecution. Will be suffering.
00:22:07.07\00:22:08.90
Not necessarily
from the government,
00:22:08.91\00:22:10.22
but just to be living
correctly in front of God,
00:22:10.23\00:22:14.93
offend certain people
and you'll have harassment.
00:22:14.94\00:22:17.39
And in defending and
protecting religious freedom,
00:22:17.40\00:22:19.88
we also show which side we are.
00:22:19.89\00:22:22.37
You know, we're
with on the side of God
00:22:22.38\00:22:24.09
because God is
the God of freedom.
00:22:24.10\00:22:25.79
That is not just only the fight
00:22:25.80\00:22:28.26
that we believe that
we'll change the world.
00:22:28.27\00:22:30.74
We're also sign of
the kingdom of God.
00:22:30.75\00:22:33.18
It means we
cannot accept the fact
00:22:33.19\00:22:36.24
that people could be
discriminated and persecuted
00:22:36.25\00:22:40.19
just because to
have another opinion
00:22:40.20\00:22:42.86
and that is the sign
of the kingdom of the God.
00:22:42.87\00:22:45.30
Freedom is the sign
of the kingdom of God.
00:22:45.31\00:22:48.12
As far as to how peoples
and even nations respond,
00:22:48.13\00:22:52.71
there's an interesting dynamic
that in a time of stress,
00:22:52.72\00:22:55.61
they'll compromise very
easily like in Jesus day,
00:22:55.62\00:22:58.76
the leaders of the
Jewish people made a comment
00:22:58.77\00:23:02.52
that in fact it was Caiphus
00:23:02.53\00:23:05.24
and he's the one
who made the comment,
00:23:05.25\00:23:06.30
better that one man
should perish, yeah.
00:23:06.31\00:23:08.43
Or die than the
nation should perish.
00:23:08.44\00:23:10.80
And we can
easily slip into that.
00:23:10.81\00:23:12.52
Well, better and
getting this mortal threat
00:23:12.53\00:23:16.07
from outside of the U.S. that
a few freedoms be restricted,
00:23:16.08\00:23:18.94
but we're about a good thing.
00:23:18.95\00:23:20.65
Let's--it's always-- And
you'll have the majority.
00:23:20.66\00:23:23.15
The majority of
people will support
00:23:23.16\00:23:24.82
this point of view, right.
00:23:24.83\00:23:25.84
So it's true that
things don't always present
00:23:25.85\00:23:29.92
as absolutely black and white.
00:23:29.93\00:23:31.61
But to accept too much
grey is to heading into trouble.
00:23:31.62\00:23:35.60
But you know in the middle ages,
00:23:35.61\00:23:38.01
we're talking about repression
and government responses,
00:23:38.02\00:23:40.15
no question of the middle ages
00:23:40.16\00:23:41.82
that was brought
to a fine pitch where,
00:23:41.83\00:23:45.46
you know, often-- well in Spain
00:23:45.47\00:23:47.29
under the threat there
of the Islamic invasions,
00:23:48.89\00:23:52.20
how they persecuted
00:23:52.21\00:23:55.05
the Christian
dissidents and Jews--
00:23:55.06\00:23:57.60
Muslim, Jews-- Muslims as well.
00:23:57.61\00:23:59.28
Yeah. Yeah.
00:23:59.29\00:24:00.28
There was real
military issue at play.
00:24:00.29\00:24:03.47
The security the
state was not so certain.
00:24:03.48\00:24:06.06
But looking back on,
00:24:06.07\00:24:07.07
we see just horrible
religious persecution.
00:24:07.08\00:24:09.76
You have always a good reason,
00:24:09.77\00:24:11.83
you know, to suppress or
restrict religious freedom.
00:24:11.84\00:24:15.41
You know, coming back
00:24:15.42\00:24:16.84
to what happened 20
years ago in Europe.
00:24:16.85\00:24:19.06
When you read article
in a press and report,
00:24:19.07\00:24:22.41
you know, they
said, like in France,
00:24:22.42\00:24:24.63
they said the government
00:24:24.64\00:24:26.01
or people from
the government say,
00:24:26.02\00:24:27.40
you know, they are
five hundred thousand
00:24:27.41\00:24:29.92
members of cults
and sect in France.
00:24:29.93\00:24:33.26
And of course
reading the article,
00:24:33.27\00:24:35.44
it was like if you said
00:24:35.45\00:24:36.73
you have an army of
five hundred thousand people
00:24:36.74\00:24:40.41
all united, ready to
takeover the government.
00:24:40.42\00:24:44.36
That was just
you know these people
00:24:44.37\00:24:45.93
did not know each other.
00:24:45.94\00:24:47.06
They had no
organization to be together,
00:24:47.07\00:24:49.68
that was totally
divided, opposing each other.
00:24:49.69\00:24:53.03
That was not a one army,
00:24:53.04\00:24:54.53
but it was
presented like that, yes.
00:24:54.54\00:24:56.65
It means, you know, people--
00:24:56.66\00:24:58.65
and of course
after people are scared.
00:24:58.66\00:25:01.23
Because you know, one
thing happened in white
00:25:01.24\00:25:03.85
and other thing happened
00:25:03.86\00:25:05.12
and they say that we
have to defend ourselves
00:25:05.13\00:25:07.47
because we are attacked.
00:25:07.48\00:25:09.41
We're to defend
and this is the way,
00:25:09.42\00:25:11.92
to good way to
manipulate the people
00:25:11.93\00:25:14.15
and public opinion,
yeah. I agree with you.
00:25:14.16\00:25:17.63
It reminds me not to
prove the same point.
00:25:17.64\00:25:20.23
But you know Hitler's scathing
comment about Roman Catholics
00:25:20.24\00:25:25.45
and the popes
backing in World War II,
00:25:25.46\00:25:27.46
you know, how many
divisions has the pope got.
00:25:27.47\00:25:29.49
People of faith,
there are huge number,
00:25:31.39\00:25:33.29
but they're not dedicated
00:25:33.30\00:25:35.18
that I can see from
any record of history
00:25:35.19\00:25:38.40
towards necessarily upholding
00:25:38.41\00:25:40.86
or destroying any civil system.
00:25:40.87\00:25:42.82
People of true
faith are dedicated
00:25:42.83\00:25:44.74
to that faith viewpoint
that ultimately is transcended.
00:25:44.75\00:25:47.55
So they're no--
00:25:47.56\00:25:48.55
And sometime the
authorities create the problem.
00:25:48.56\00:25:51.05
Because, you know, people have
no relation between themselves
00:25:51.06\00:25:54.45
but when they are threatened,
00:25:54.46\00:25:56.32
they tend to build
relation between them, yeah.
00:25:56.33\00:25:59.31
And that's not a
good way to accuse them.
00:25:59.32\00:26:03.02
We discussed the Arab
spring and revolutionary fervor.
00:26:03.03\00:26:08.90
And there's no question
00:26:08.91\00:26:09.90
that's all things
are shaken in turmoil,
00:26:09.91\00:26:12.64
religion is part of the mix.
00:26:12.65\00:26:14.28
And the best thing
I can say is the state
00:26:14.29\00:26:17.28
needs to keep the state matters
00:26:17.29\00:26:18.61
and people of faith
need to keep their faith
00:26:18.62\00:26:20.71
Yeah. Separate--
00:26:20.72\00:26:22.10
And it's another way of stating
00:26:22.11\00:26:23.28
I think the
separation of church and state
00:26:23.29\00:26:25.44
is a wonderful
protective mechanism. Yeah.
00:26:25.45\00:26:28.12
And we shouldn't muddle the two.
00:26:28.13\00:26:29.54
Yes and it is very
important to maintain
00:26:29.55\00:26:32.34
this principle of separation
between church and state.
00:26:32.35\00:26:35.48
And also remember
that every human being
00:26:35.49\00:26:39.21
has the right to freedom
00:26:39.22\00:26:41.00
and every human
being believers or not
00:26:41.01\00:26:43.98
have the right to
religious freedom.
00:26:43.99\00:26:46.02
It's worth remembering
that the crucifixion of Christ
00:26:47.61\00:26:51.12
took place at the time
of great political unrest.
00:26:51.13\00:26:54.26
In fact, only a few years later
00:26:54.27\00:26:56.39
when Saul later
known as Paul rampaged
00:26:56.40\00:26:59.93
around the
countryside arresting Christians
00:26:59.94\00:27:02.35
and hailing them off to prison.
00:27:02.36\00:27:04.05
He was probably
seen by both Jewish
00:27:04.06\00:27:06.62
and the Roman authorities
00:27:06.63\00:27:07.97
as removing a seditious element
00:27:07.98\00:27:10.77
from this revolutionary context.
00:27:10.78\00:27:13.68
Of course, it was
really only a few short years
00:27:13.69\00:27:16.72
later that Rome did
indeed destroy Jerusalem
00:27:16.73\00:27:20.52
and put down the Jewish revolt.
00:27:20.53\00:27:22.57
But, that revolt was
never the Christian movement.
00:27:22.58\00:27:27.09
And I think today
in the United States
00:27:27.10\00:27:29.41
and the western world
00:27:29.42\00:27:31.18
as we are battling
in the war on terrorism,
00:27:31.19\00:27:33.87
a radical form of a
certain religious expression,
00:27:33.88\00:27:37.44
it's worth remembering
00:27:37.45\00:27:38.52
that there is valid
spiritual expression by Muslims,
00:27:38.53\00:27:41.90
by Christians, and others
that needs to be protected
00:27:41.91\00:27:45.30
and even when it
speaks vigorously
00:27:45.31\00:27:47.51
about another spiritual reality,
00:27:47.52\00:27:49.38
it is not seditious,
00:27:49.39\00:27:51.02
it is not opposed
to the present order.
00:27:51.03\00:27:53.25
It is presenting nearly
a spiritual alternative.
00:27:53.26\00:27:56.84
We surely must protect
the freedom of religion
00:27:56.85\00:28:00.01
and expression to
protect every society.
00:28:00.02\00:28:02.93
This is Lincoln
Steed for Liberty Insider.
00:28:04.04\00:28:06.93