Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Jon Gratz
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000163
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:25 This is a program that bring you 00:26 discussion, news, views and up-to-date information 00:29 on religious liberty events around the world. 00:32 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine 00:35 and my guest on the program 00:36 is Dr. John Graz, Director General 00:40 of the International Religious Liberty Association. 00:42 Liberty Association. Yes. 00:43 Secretary General. Secretary General. 00:46 You have too many hats and I stumbled over them 00:48 but I--the one I know very, very well 00:50 because we work closely together. 00:52 You're director of the Seventh-Day Adventist Department 00:56 of Public Affairs and Religious Liberty 00:58 for the world headquarters. 00:59 Yeah, which means, you know, relation with government 01:02 in one side and the other side 01:05 defending and promoting religious freedom for all. 01:07 I've tried to explain that on this program before 01:10 because public affairs is not by any means exactly 01:15 the same as religious liberty, it's more in some ways. 01:16 No, there is --there is a tension, there is a tension-- 01:19 The Adventist diplomatic department-- 01:21 And there is a tension between both sides 01:23 but that's--it's a very healthy tension, because you know, 01:26 it gives a kind of purpose what we are doing. 01:29 It's also to make sure that 01:31 the door will be open for religious freedom. 01:34 It means to preach your gospel. 01:35 If you don't have religious freedom, 01:37 you don't have the gospel preaching everywhere. 01:40 And they're also, of course, 01:42 the public affairs means it's more diplomatic. 01:45 You don't want to have a conflict with government, 01:48 you want to have a good relation. 01:49 But religious freedom sometime you have really 01:52 some tension with government and you can oppose. 01:55 Yes, I know, you know, even some of their own church members 01:57 sometimes don't see this-- this distinction and I know 02:00 one of your predecessors was severely criticized 02:04 for having dialogue with not just governments 02:08 but with religious entities that we would have differences 02:12 with and they didn't understand that we need to have dialogue. 02:14 It doesn't mean we are compromising, 02:16 we're communicating. 02:17 You know, our president gave a very good formula. 02:20 He said that we have to make friends and of course, 02:23 you cannot make friends if you don't meet them, 02:26 if you don't talk with them. 02:27 What you have to be sure at, you have to be sure about 02:30 what you believe, but once you know 02:32 what you believe there is no problem to talk with others. 02:36 I don't know why you have a problem to talk it further. 02:38 We are doing that all the time in our life. 02:40 Why you should be isolated from others? 02:43 You have to meet other and also it's important for them 02:47 to see you and to see someone who represent 02:50 may be an organization or a church-- 02:54 To an abstract idea of them. Absolutely, yeah. 02:56 And of course, it breaks down prejudice and creates friends. 02:59 It doesn't compromise them or us, 03:01 but you've created a conduit for communication. 03:04 Yeah, we come back to Jesus which is who is our example, 03:07 you know, He met people from--He met Romans, 03:10 He met Pagan, He met Greek and so 03:12 and He had no problem. Woman at the well. 03:13 Woman in the well and He talked with them 03:15 and He made friends and you make enemies too, 03:18 but you know, if you don't know things, 03:20 if you do nothing, you can be sure that 03:22 you will have more enemies than friends. 03:25 Well, we agreed on this principle 03:27 but as I look at the world 03:28 and you travel the world more than most anyone I know. 03:31 Your office is nearly always empty 03:33 as you're traveling the world. Well, that's not good too. 03:35 You know, there's a revolution in travel. 03:39 We're are benefiting from that. 03:41 You can get on a plane and it's just like a magic carpet. 03:43 A few hours later you could be halfway around the world. 03:46 It is more comfortable in some place than others, 03:48 but it's basically relatively easy to move to a radically 03:52 different environment where religious liberty 03:54 may be under some stress. 03:56 But this is a revolutionary era, I'm quite sure of that. 03:59 And as we see the newspaper headlines in the last few months 04:03 we've been reminded over and over again that 04:04 yes there are countries in rapid flux like Egypt. 04:08 And basically the whole Arab world there because 04:13 ending with a violent overthrow in Libya. 04:15 Tunisia and-- Yeah. 04:16 Egypt, Libya. 04:17 I was fishing for Tunisia but then I thought of Libya 04:19 where it all ended up. 04:21 But, you know, Libya is violent, Egypt there was some violence, 04:25 but it seems that it's working within the system. 04:27 But, what do you make of all of this? 04:28 Where is it heading? You know, there was-- 04:30 Our civil and religious freedoms. 04:31 You know, in one side we are very pleased to see that 04:34 people, you know, say enough with pressure, 04:37 enough with discrimination, we want to have freedom. 04:41 And really the strong motivation of the people in the street 04:43 wants to have--want to have more freedom, more freedom. 04:47 and we agree with that. 04:48 But, you know, the problem is when you see 04:51 such a revolution and one side you are very happy, 04:54 the other side you ask the question 04:55 but what's going to, you know, 04:57 what would be the end of all this, 04:59 because you saw in history a lot of movement 05:03 in favor of freedom started with the claiming, 05:07 you know, for freedom and finish with a dictatorship. 05:10 Well, your ancestral connection, I know you're sort of a duel, 05:17 you're Swiss and French. Yes. 05:18 But, you know, in France, the French Revolution-- 05:20 Started with this great idea of freedom. 05:22 Freedom, Liberty, Equality, Fraternity. 05:24 Yeah. Where did it go? 05:25 Through the terror. Yeah, the terror, yeah. 05:27 And then Napoleon, the dictator in Europe. 05:30 But you know, sometime you don't ask 05:32 if it is not a step towards something better but still 05:36 you have the big question, "What will happen?" 05:38 But at least, you know, the principle come back 05:41 and it means that if you look at what happened in Arab country, 05:45 you'll see that people in this country are like other people 05:48 around the world, they need freedom. 05:50 Why they should need to have freedom? 05:53 Why they should be different? They need all kind of freedom? 05:56 They need also religious freedom. 05:58 They need to decide if they want to have or not religion. 06:02 They need to decide if they want to change a religion. 06:04 Well, this is what I want. 06:05 You've giving me the cue to play the spoiler in this argument. 06:10 We know there's a revolutionary shift in the Middle East. 06:14 I think the discussion consider about 06:16 what are they pushing toward? 06:19 What was their aspiration? 06:23 There's been a lot said about the Twitter and the facebook 06:26 and all the social media that have stimulated people's desires 06:30 and help them communicate and coordinate 06:32 as they've demonstrated. 06:36 I'm not really sure thinking-- you know, 06:41 reviewing all of these countries, 06:42 that any of those countries have reacted against 06:45 their ruling system because they want more religious freedom. 06:50 Probably not. 06:51 But, you know, in Egypt you have a lot of Christians, 06:53 you know, being with the demonstrators. 06:56 Why? Because they wanted to hand 06:58 the discrimination and they believe really 07:00 that the revolution will provide equality for them. 07:04 And in Egypt, 10% of the population is Christian. 07:07 Some people say that more than 10%. 07:08 May be 20 % by some figure-- 07:10 Yeah, we don't know really. 07:11 But, you know, in other places 07:13 you don't have anymore--lot of Jews. 07:15 You don't have a lot of Christian 07:16 because Christians tend to leave the country, 07:19 because they don't see any future 07:20 for them in many Arabic country. 07:22 But which is interesting is when you open the door to freedom 07:26 you cannot say, okay, freedom, for all except for the religion. 07:30 Well, you might say it-- You have to go there. 07:32 The point is, you're right, once the system is changed 07:36 in the time of change it's an opportunity 07:38 to call for increase religious freedom. 07:40 So it's at least an opportunity 07:42 that may be lost but change does. 07:44 What's the-- there's an Asian thing 07:46 about dangerous opportunity. 07:48 An Asian saying that, "Crisis is a dangerous opportunity." 07:51 Yeah and of course, you know, when you're-- 07:54 when the revolution is done, now you have to be practical 07:57 you have to-- who will lead the country? 07:59 You need to experience people. 08:01 You need people who are able to control their country 08:04 and at this time you look toward those who are well organized. 08:07 And this is what happened in this country those 08:09 who are very well organized are the Muslim brotherhood. 08:12 In Egypt and some other. They are well organized. 08:15 They can give a response, you know, to their need, 08:18 but you know, what would be the price. 08:20 And this is what happened in Russia too with the communist, 08:23 you know, when you had the revolution. 08:25 Position themselves to take advantage-- 08:26 People did not want to become communist 08:28 but the best organization was the communist organization 08:32 and they took over. 08:33 And since I-- you and I have a history-- 08:37 a sense of history and we got viewers. 08:39 When you mentioned the Russian Revolution 08:40 the communist taking over, its worth remembering 08:42 which I think many people have forgotten in the West. 08:45 That--after the Russian Revolution, 08:48 it was the White Russians who were of more, 08:50 they weren't western democrats 08:52 but they were certainly not communists. 08:54 Yeah. They had the ascendancy 08:56 but they were slowly defeated by the communists 08:59 who really hijacked the revolution in somewhat. 09:01 Yeah, they hijacked-- this is what happened 09:03 in some countries, you know, it happened very, very often 09:06 when you have a revolution. 09:08 Because, you know, revolution come from a feeling, 09:11 we need more freedom. 09:12 Now, how well, can you do that and when you have, 09:15 you know, the government change, 09:17 but now you have to build something here something else. 09:20 How can you do that? 09:21 You need really to be very practical and a country, 09:25 you know, if you way to have more problems. 09:27 It means you have to face the very difficult time, 09:31 bring solution and take your responsibility. 09:34 What I think and this is what I'm sitting at discussion, 09:36 for I think, well no country can impose on another. 09:41 But with the United Nations we have influence certainly. 09:44 But I think this is the time in this time of transition 09:47 for outside peoples not countries per say. 09:50 But to encourage these new entities toward openness 09:54 in religion and other civil liberties 09:58 or else it might take a bad default setting-- 10:01 Another problem will be. 10:02 And I have an example of where we didn't do this. 10:05 The United States, unfortunately militarily 10:10 intervened in Iraq and in Afghanistan, 10:13 and had a major part in reformulating 10:17 the civil structure of both those countries. 10:19 It had the position of power and influence 10:23 and yet in both of those countries the new constitutions 10:26 take a most un-liberal view of religious freedom, is it not? 10:29 Yeah. It puts the civil laws directly 10:34 under the control of the Quran and for a Muslim 10:37 that's fine but for religious freedom 10:39 for all that's very dangerous to have one particular 10:42 religious viewpoint as the default setting for civil-- 10:45 Because also, you know, the concept we have about 10:48 religious freedom is not really very familiar to those 10:51 who are living in this place in place of the world. 10:54 And even for in Islam, many--for many 10:57 Muslim religious freedom what does it mean. 11:00 You know, they are not clear about it, 11:01 especially not mean that you have 11:03 the right to change your religion. 11:05 Because if you change your religion that's it, 11:07 that's more than just a contradiction. 11:09 It's a strong opposition. It seems the denial of faith. 11:11 It's a denial of faith. 11:13 It mean, the way you understand it. 11:15 It's a lot of work to do to explain 11:17 and work which is also very difficult because 11:20 during this time, you know, people will be persecuted. 11:23 People will be arrested. People will be discriminated. 11:27 And I don't think it will change to the next few years. 11:31 Unfortunately, I should say. No. 11:33 But we're--all of us now are in the box seat to watch 11:38 usually slow historical process in fast motion 11:41 in a whole area of the world. 11:44 I think it's a historic moment. Yeah. 11:46 You know, this is the sort of thing 11:47 you read about in history books 11:48 and we're seeing convulsion after convulsion, 11:51 overtake a whole area of countries and good things 11:56 but certainly and bad can come out of that. 11:57 But we hope working for religious freedom that some 12:01 little light can come in this tunnel that they're going to-- 12:03 Of course, we hope and we will do our best, 12:05 you know, to help the people to understand 12:08 that religious freedom is also-- it's also a guarantee of peace. 12:14 But I think as we discussed at the beginning, 12:17 there's some reason for hope because the impetus 12:20 for this was sort of a stirring of the people psyche 12:24 just wanting to be free of these different bonds that they had. 12:27 Never not all the same in each country 12:29 but they didn't like the established order. 12:31 They felt it was repressive to human expression. 12:35 I think, by and large. Yeah and that is something-- 12:37 Even though they might want to express a narrow 12:39 religious viewpoint or an equally narrow 12:41 religious viewpoint, they want change 12:44 and at the time of change something positive 12:46 could be interjected. 12:48 We'll be back to continue this discussion after a short break. 12:51 Stay with us, please. 13:02 One-hundred years, a long time to do anything, 13:05 much less publish a magazine, but this year, Liberty, 13:09 the Seventh-day Adventist voice of Religious Freedom, 13:12 celebrates one hundred years of doing what it does best, 13:16 collecting, analyzing, and reporting the ebb and flow 13:19 of religious expression around the world. 13:22 Issue after issue, Liberty has taken 13:25 on the tough assignments, 13:26 tracking down threats to Religious Freedom 13:28 and exposing the work of the devil 13:30 in every corner of the globe. 13:32 Governmental interference, personal attacks, 13:35 corporate assaults, even Religious Freedom issues 13:37 sequestered within the Church community itself 13:40 have been clearly and honestly exposed. 13:43 Liberty exists for one purpose to help God's people 13:46 maintain that all important separation of Church and State, 13:50 while recognizing the dangers inherent in such a struggle. 13:54 During the past century, Liberty has experienced 13:57 challenges of its own, but it remains on the job. 14:00 Thanks to the inspired leadership of a long line 14:03 of dedicated Adventist Editors, three of whom 14:05 represent almost half of the publication's existence 14:08 and the foresight of a little woman from New England. 14:11 One hundred years of struggle, one hundred years of victories, 14:16 religious freedom isn't just about 14:18 political machines and cultural prejudices. 14:20 It's about people fighting for the right to serve 14:24 the God they love as their hearts 14:26 and the Holy Spirit dictate. 14:29 Thanks to the prayers and generous support 14:31 of Seventh-day Adventists everywhere. 14:33 Liberty will continue to accomplish its work 14:35 of providing timely information, spirit filled inspiration, 14:39 and heaven sent encouragement to all who long to live 14:43 and work in a world bound together 14:45 by the God ordained bonds of religious freedom. 14:59 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider. 15:02 Before the break, I was discussing with Dr. John Graz, 15:06 the revolutionary fervor that's sweeping the world 15:09 or at least the Middle East. 15:11 But I think it's bleeding over into Europe. 15:13 England even had riots that, lot of people put down 15:16 to just spoiled young people, but I think it was indicative 15:20 of the sort of throwing off the shackles 15:22 of whatever system people have. 15:23 But in the Middle East, there are legitimate reasons 15:28 that the populous want to break free, aren't they? 15:30 Oh! Yes. They need more freedom and they ask for more freedom. 15:31 Absolutely, they have been restricted. 15:33 They have lived not just under-- I'm trying to think of it a word 15:38 to describe, a system that takes everything from the people. 15:45 But they were very repressive even Mubarak, 15:47 in the name of repressing Islam had really kept 15:51 the permanent state of emergency. 15:54 They didn't have the freedom they wanted. 15:55 They were looking on TV or on the internet 15:58 and discussing with people, in other parts of the world 16:00 who are expressing themselves freely 16:02 and they couldn't and the result was, the top blew-off. 16:05 Oh yeah, I remember watching, you know, report about Libya, 16:08 and people who are in the street say, 16:10 "Now, we can say what we want. 16:12 We are not afraid to be arrested." 16:14 And that's something which is may be probably 16:17 difficult to understand when you are living in a country 16:20 where you have, you know, a freedom. 16:22 It's protected by the institution and so on 16:25 when you can speak and that's difficult 16:28 to understand that there are places in the world 16:30 where people cannot speak openly. 16:32 They have to be careful all the time 16:34 because they believe that they can be arrested. 16:37 They cannot trust another one because they believe 16:40 that they can be also arrested because speaking openly. 16:44 That's, you know, it creates a very oppressive climates. 16:47 Absolutely, and a lot of people I think misunderstand 16:49 what most of these oppressive regimes are like. 16:52 It doesn't mean that every time you say something, 16:55 every time you witnesses, a Christian say that, 16:58 "Bad things happen." 16:59 But it happens often enough and it's-- 17:02 Yeah, it creates-- 17:03 That may be one time in a hundred, but you know, 17:06 that it's likely to happen if you do that 17:08 and you don't know when the axe comes down. 17:10 So that means that everything is inhibited. 17:12 Yeah. Imagine that you're living here 17:14 and imagine that you're always a policeman 17:16 or everything you say that it's-- 17:19 is listened by, to by someone. 17:22 And you can have a lot of problem 17:24 and it can change totally your way of thinking 17:27 and you have to be careful about everything. 17:29 You're afraid. You don't want to say what-- 17:32 and of course, and after you don't think 17:34 by yourself because if you think by yourself 17:37 and you cannot express what you are feeling 17:40 and what you are thinking, you may have problem. 17:44 It means it reduced your capacity 17:47 to develop-- to develop yourself. 17:50 Absolutely, and in some ways it starts to change your thinking, 17:52 that's what those repressive regimes are hoping for. 17:55 Yeah. That you turn away from 17:57 independent thought and become one of--more of the sheep. 17:59 More docile and-- Docile, yes. 18:01 You will not react again, so really not to ask, 18:04 you know, what they are doing. 18:06 You have-- you lose your capacity 18:09 to maybe to challenge what is wrong. 18:13 By the way you mentioned Libya. 18:16 I got a page here from a book that I worked that I will-- 18:22 It's a world report. Yes, well I want to say 18:25 what it was but-- We published the world report-- 18:27 But here on Libya's populations 18:29 six million two hundred and eighty-three thousand, 18:30 not a very big country. 18:31 I come from a very small population country Australia. 18:35 Twenty-five million but this is much, much smaller, Libya. 18:39 Sunni Muslims 97%. Other, which I presume 18:43 means some other Muslims too-- Yeah. 18:45 Three percent. Yeah, yeah. 18:46 Seventh-Day Adventist 72. Yeah. 18:49 And probably, most of them come from Africa and they're workers. 18:51 Guest workers and so on. Yeah. 18:53 The 1968 Constitution which, I'm not sure if that 18:57 predates Gaddafi's year or not 18:59 but he went back many, many years. 19:01 But the constitution states in Article 2, 19:04 "Islam is the religion of the state 19:06 and Arabic is its official language. 19:08 The state protects religious freedom 19:10 in accordance with established customs." 19:13 There's some visa language for you. 19:16 Established custom in 97 plus percent Islamic country 19:21 would be that Islam is protected 19:22 and other country-- other religions not much. 19:26 But at least enough to allow people 19:27 to at least have an identity other than Islam. 19:31 Yes, this is--I read from that on purpose. 19:35 Your department has produced for how many years now? 19:38 Oh! At least 10 years now. For about 10 years, every year-- 19:42 Every two years now. 19:43 Every two years I thought it was annually. 19:45 But yes this is 2000-- 19:46 Two years, yeah, the world reform. 19:48 A religious freedom world report 19:50 which I know is widely quoted and referred to. 19:53 I've been in many meetings with other representatives 19:56 and they refer to this, not just Adventist. 19:58 Two hundred and four countries 20:00 are really analyzed in this report. 20:03 And, you know, it's not all generated just by us 20:07 but it's collected by us from authoritative sources, 20:10 some of our own church contexts and up-to-date news-- 20:14 Because, you know, you have country 20:15 where it's clear that the state 20:18 is producing restriction about religious freedom. 20:21 But in some other country, the state try to protect 20:24 religious freedom but, you know, the state is not strong enough 20:28 to make sure that religious minority will be protected. 20:33 It means you have a kind of militia attacking churches 20:36 and it happened in several countries 20:38 or attacking other people just because of their religion. 20:42 Yes, and I remember an element of that in, 20:48 I'm trying to think of the county down East Timor 20:50 where we visited. Yeah. 20:51 They have, what I thought was a fairly good 20:54 legal structure for religious freedom. 20:56 But out in the villages, people were being 20:58 not just harassed, they were being physically set upon. 21:02 And when we told the government leaders, 21:03 they were troubled by that, but they basically said, 21:06 "We can't do much about it." 21:07 So if a state throws up its hands and says, 21:10 "Well, we want the best but it's out of our control. 21:12 The people have done this. "Effectively, they-- 21:14 And also there're-- there are country like Pakistan 21:18 where you have this blasphemy law 21:20 which is on tie blasphemy law which is something 21:23 very terrible about the climate, because you know, 21:26 you have Christian living there, you have people from 21:28 other religion and everything they can say can be interpreted 21:32 as something against, you know, 21:34 the prophet and against the Quran and they can go to court. 21:38 Absolutely. And they can spend 21:40 years and years and they even can be 21:42 executed or killed by extremists-- 21:43 People have been, it's not just Iraq-- 21:45 You remember-- But that's the law--that's, 21:48 yes that's the law of Pakistan and you can hold that country 21:52 to account but this is not a-- 21:56 it's not really a 21st century law at all. 21:58 I mean, it's medieval apart from it being biased toward 22:01 a particular religion, it's just a medieval-- 22:03 If you see, when you want to talk, 22:05 you know, you talk you are Christian 22:07 or you are Buddhist and so on. 22:09 And you say that, "I believe that Jesus. 22:11 I believe that Jesus is the son of God." 22:13 It could be taken as an insult. 22:15 To Islam because-- To Islam. 22:16 Islam says, "Not. That He was just a prophet." 22:19 Oh, I believe that the Bible is a book inspired by God. 22:23 It could be taken or interpreted as an insult 22:26 and you can be arrested just for that. 22:29 They can take everything you have. 22:30 You can spend your life in jail, because you know, 22:32 the judge will be afraid about the radical, 22:35 the extremists because the extremists 22:37 will say to the judge, 22:39 "If you make free these people we will kill you." 22:41 Yeah. And you can imagine 22:43 living in such a context. 22:45 This is what happened when you don't have religious freedom. 22:48 It's a very concrete and this is why 22:51 also we believe that people living in North Africa, 22:54 in Egypt, deserve religious freedom. 22:57 They deserve the right to think, to take a position, to decide-- 23:01 At least a chance to think 23:02 this thing through and decide firmly 23:03 And to get information. Do this we want this. 23:05 What I was gonna say going back to Pakistan 23:07 that law on blasphemy 23:09 is in their constitution and it's unfortunate. 23:13 But there's another practice there, it's not uncommon 23:17 when a child particularly wants to leave Islam. 23:20 The parents will actually sometimes kill them, 23:23 usually daughters, they'll kill them 23:26 sort of as an honor-- a religious honor killing. 23:29 And there's no law saying that they should. 23:32 And of course, murder--laws against murder 23:36 would normally bring a penalty, but never once as the government 23:40 ever prosecuted anyone for doing that-- 23:42 They're, I think, they are afraid. 23:44 There's a situation. 23:46 Yeah, the state is complicit in that by not intervening. 23:50 Yeah. So it can be egregious law 23:52 against religious liberty or a state being part 23:56 of the dynamic that results in people 23:58 being harassed and persecuted. 23:59 You know what happened in Pakistan 24:01 where the minister-minister of a government and a governor-- 24:05 For religious affairs. 24:06 Yeah, for religious affair and the Governor of Punjab, 24:08 you know, they oppose-- 24:10 openly oppose to their law against blasphemy. 24:13 What happened to them? 24:14 They were killed, they were killed. 24:16 And even if you are-- you are the chief of police 24:19 or the judge and so on, you think about 24:21 your own safety and you say, 24:23 "I want to mind, that's a very risky." 24:26 And in this kind of climate you cannot really have a justice. 24:30 It's--it's you have no chance to win. 24:33 It meant something has to be changed 24:35 and we have to come back to the basic principle 24:38 of freedom and religious freedom. 24:41 Yeah, so there's really two options it seems to me. 24:43 We've spoken in another program about the UN 24:46 and international agencies bringing external pressure. 24:49 Or as this happening with the Arab Spring. 24:51 The people themselves can be empowered. 24:52 Yeah. To push back and to make 24:56 a new norm that you would hope would be more informed 24:59 and calculated to defend all people 25:01 not just a few self-interested groups within the system. 25:05 But it's a long way, you know, 25:07 because you have to understand that, 25:08 you know, you can live in a same country, 25:11 have a strong government and a strong country 25:14 even if you have different point of view, 25:16 even if you have different religion. 25:18 Because you have always this way of thinking 25:20 that you need to be one, have just one religion, 25:23 one government and so on. 25:25 But no, you can be different. 25:27 You have to build one country, but you could have 25:31 different religion and different way of thinking. 25:33 Well, yeah, the view of plurality 25:35 is of course alien to a lot of cultures, 25:37 but we definitely hope that this Arab Spring, 25:40 which in some ways is spreading a bit 25:41 but it's involved most of the Arab world, 25:44 that some good comes out of it, 25:45 not just civil general structural civil good, 25:48 but that in the area of religious liberty 25:50 and civil rights the people can be empowered 25:53 to move in positive directions. 25:55 But it does remind me as the Sevent-day Adventist, 25:57 Ellen White, writing years ago about the end of time, 26:00 said something with the affect that throughout the whole world 26:03 there'll be scenes like the French Revolution. 26:05 And when I look at Syria Square, 26:07 I think this is French Revolution. 26:08 People rising up, and agitating and demonstrating 26:12 and some little violence and pushback from both directions. 26:15 But it's an exciting time, isn't it? 26:16 Yeah, it's an exciting time. 26:18 And, you know, what happened today 26:21 in several Arab countries, it's interesting because 26:24 it shows that you cannot deprive people of freedom. 26:28 One day or another they will ask for what is it really normal, 26:33 you know, they deserve freedom 26:35 and I think people living in this country. 26:37 And I think Arabic people, Arab people, 26:39 deserve the same freedom we have elsewhere. 26:43 They deserve like us religious freedom. 26:47 It's exciting to be alive during a period of revolution 26:51 at least to observe it, not to be in it. 26:54 But it's worth remembering that shortly 26:56 after the death of Christ, there was an amazing revolution 27:00 as the--His disciples fend out around the known world. 27:06 We talk about the gospel commission 27:08 but the reality is that within a lifetime they had covered 27:12 the entire known world and spread 27:14 the gospel of Jesus Christ, which involved 27:18 telling His story, about His life incarnation, 27:21 miracles and of course, His resurrection. 27:26 Today, as we look at events in that part of the world, 27:29 the old world, the Middle East and see revolution stirring. 27:34 We know that there're many forces at play. 27:36 The old despotism may not be dead yet 27:39 and religious intolerance may yet rise again. 27:43 But just as that period when a gospel of freedom 27:46 spread out following Christ ministry. 27:49 So today, I believe the spirit of freedom, 27:52 the spirit of religious liberty has one more chance 27:56 to manifest itself even in a world that is known lately, 28:00 only repression, only dogmatic repression. 28:04 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17