Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:00:22.89\00:00:25.07
This is a program that bring you
00:00:25.08\00:00:26.49
discussion, news, views
and up-to-date information
00:00:26.50\00:00:29.37
on religious liberty
events around the world.
00:00:29.38\00:00:32.38
My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine
00:00:32.39\00:00:35.60
and my guest on the program
00:00:35.61\00:00:36.66
is Dr. John
Graz, Director General
00:00:36.67\00:00:40.56
of the International
Religious Liberty Association.
00:00:40.57\00:00:42.21
Liberty Association. Yes.
00:00:42.22\00:00:43.95
Secretary
General. Secretary General.
00:00:43.96\00:00:46.11
You have too many hats
and I stumbled over them
00:00:46.12\00:00:48.51
but I--the one I
know very, very well
00:00:48.52\00:00:50.39
because we work
closely together.
00:00:50.40\00:00:52.09
You're director of the
Seventh-Day Adventist Department
00:00:52.10\00:00:56.44
of Public Affairs
and Religious Liberty
00:00:56.45\00:00:58.51
for the world headquarters.
00:00:58.52\00:00:59.70
Yeah, which means, you
know, relation with government
00:00:59.71\00:01:02.89
in one side and the other side
00:01:02.90\00:01:05.31
defending and promoting
religious freedom for all.
00:01:05.32\00:01:07.82
I've tried to explain
that on this program before
00:01:07.83\00:01:10.14
because public affairs
is not by any means exactly
00:01:10.15\00:01:14.98
the same as religious
liberty, it's more in some ways.
00:01:14.99\00:01:16.32
No, there is --there is a
tension, there is a tension--
00:01:16.33\00:01:19.30
The Adventist
diplomatic department--
00:01:19.31\00:01:21.62
And there is a
tension between both sides
00:01:21.63\00:01:23.52
but that's--it's a very healthy
tension, because you know,
00:01:23.53\00:01:26.22
it gives a kind of
purpose what we are doing.
00:01:26.23\00:01:29.48
It's also to make sure that
00:01:29.49\00:01:31.83
the door will be open
for religious freedom.
00:01:31.84\00:01:34.23
It means to preach your gospel.
00:01:34.24\00:01:35.70
If you don't have
religious freedom,
00:01:35.71\00:01:37.39
you don't have the
gospel preaching everywhere.
00:01:37.40\00:01:40.40
And they're also, of course,
00:01:40.41\00:01:42.81
the public affairs
means it's more diplomatic.
00:01:42.82\00:01:45.43
You don't want to have a
conflict with government,
00:01:45.44\00:01:48.06
you want to
have a good relation.
00:01:48.07\00:01:49.69
But religious freedom
sometime you have really
00:01:49.70\00:01:52.08
some tension with
government and you can oppose.
00:01:52.09\00:01:55.06
Yes, I know, you know, even
some of their own church members
00:01:55.07\00:01:57.86
sometimes don't see this--
this distinction and I know
00:01:57.87\00:02:00.78
one of your predecessors
was severely criticized
00:02:00.79\00:02:04.34
for having dialogue
with not just governments
00:02:04.35\00:02:08.82
but with religious entities
that we would have differences
00:02:08.83\00:02:12.17
with and they didn't understand
that we need to have dialogue.
00:02:12.18\00:02:14.47
It doesn't mean
we are compromising,
00:02:14.48\00:02:16.20
we're communicating.
00:02:16.21\00:02:17.57
You know, our president
gave a very good formula.
00:02:17.58\00:02:20.60
He said that we have to
make friends and of course,
00:02:20.61\00:02:23.20
you cannot make
friends if you don't meet them,
00:02:23.21\00:02:26.03
if you don't talk with them.
00:02:26.04\00:02:27.84
What you have to be sure
at, you have to be sure about
00:02:27.85\00:02:30.95
what you
believe, but once you know
00:02:30.96\00:02:32.89
what you believe there is
no problem to talk with others.
00:02:32.90\00:02:36.19
I don't know why you have
a problem to talk it further.
00:02:36.20\00:02:38.49
We are doing that
all the time in our life.
00:02:38.50\00:02:40.68
Why you should be
isolated from others?
00:02:40.69\00:02:43.85
You have to meet other and
also it's important for them
00:02:43.86\00:02:47.47
to see you and to
see someone who represent
00:02:47.48\00:02:50.84
may be an
organization or a church--
00:02:50.85\00:02:54.00
To an abstract idea of
them. Absolutely, yeah.
00:02:54.01\00:02:56.39
And of course, it breaks down
prejudice and creates friends.
00:02:56.40\00:02:59.23
It doesn't
compromise them or us,
00:02:59.24\00:03:01.68
but you've created a
conduit for communication.
00:03:01.69\00:03:04.48
Yeah, we come back to Jesus
which is who is our example,
00:03:04.49\00:03:07.96
you know, He met
people from--He met Romans,
00:03:07.97\00:03:10.33
He met Pagan,
He met Greek and so
00:03:10.34\00:03:12.51
and He had no
problem. Woman at the well.
00:03:12.52\00:03:13.96
Woman in the well
and He talked with them
00:03:13.97\00:03:15.91
and He made friends
and you make enemies too,
00:03:15.92\00:03:18.36
but you know, if
you don't know things,
00:03:18.37\00:03:20.01
if you do nothing,
you can be sure that
00:03:20.02\00:03:22.23
you will have more
enemies than friends.
00:03:22.24\00:03:25.88
Well, we agreed
on this principle
00:03:25.89\00:03:27.31
but as I look at the world
00:03:27.32\00:03:28.77
and you travel the world
more than most anyone I know.
00:03:28.78\00:03:31.64
Your office is
nearly always empty
00:03:31.65\00:03:33.82
as you're traveling the world.
Well, that's not good too.
00:03:33.83\00:03:35.92
You know, there's a
revolution in travel.
00:03:35.93\00:03:39.05
We're are benefiting from that.
00:03:39.06\00:03:40.98
You can get on a plane and
it's just like a magic carpet.
00:03:40.99\00:03:43.10
A few hours later you could
be halfway around the world.
00:03:43.11\00:03:46.79
It is more comfortable
in some place than others,
00:03:46.80\00:03:48.79
but it's basically relatively
easy to move to a radically
00:03:48.80\00:03:52.71
different environment
where religious liberty
00:03:52.72\00:03:54.30
may be under some stress.
00:03:54.31\00:03:56.06
But this is a revolutionary
era, I'm quite sure of that.
00:03:56.07\00:03:59.77
And as we see the newspaper
headlines in the last few months
00:03:59.78\00:04:03.12
we've been reminded
over and over again that
00:04:03.13\00:04:04.84
yes there are countries
in rapid flux like Egypt.
00:04:04.85\00:04:08.33
And basically the whole
Arab world there because
00:04:08.34\00:04:12.98
ending with a
violent overthrow in Libya.
00:04:12.99\00:04:15.19
Tunisia and-- Yeah.
00:04:15.20\00:04:16.66
Egypt, Libya.
00:04:16.67\00:04:17.79
I was fishing for Tunisia
but then I thought of Libya
00:04:17.80\00:04:19.56
where it all ended up.
00:04:19.57\00:04:21.11
But, you know, Libya is violent,
Egypt there was some violence,
00:04:21.12\00:04:25.33
but it seems that it's
working within the system.
00:04:25.34\00:04:27.32
But, what do you
make of all of this?
00:04:27.33\00:04:28.89
Where is it heading?
You know, there was--
00:04:28.90\00:04:30.71
Our civil and
religious freedoms.
00:04:30.72\00:04:31.95
You know, in one side we
are very pleased to see that
00:04:31.96\00:04:34.60
people, you know,
say enough with pressure,
00:04:34.61\00:04:37.16
enough with discrimination,
we want to have freedom.
00:04:37.17\00:04:41.03
And really the strong motivation
of the people in the street
00:04:41.04\00:04:43.78
wants to have--want to
have more freedom, more freedom.
00:04:43.79\00:04:47.17
and we agree with that.
00:04:47.18\00:04:48.62
But, you know, the
problem is when you see
00:04:48.63\00:04:50.98
such a revolution and
one side you are very happy,
00:04:50.99\00:04:54.27
the other side
you ask the question
00:04:54.28\00:04:55.86
but what's going to, you know,
00:04:55.87\00:04:57.88
what would be
the end of all this,
00:04:57.89\00:04:59.78
because you saw in
history a lot of movement
00:04:59.79\00:05:03.52
in favor of freedom
started with the claiming,
00:05:03.53\00:05:07.37
you know, for freedom and
finish with a dictatorship.
00:05:07.38\00:05:10.61
Well, your ancestral connection,
I know you're sort of a duel,
00:05:10.62\00:05:17.06
you're Swiss and French. Yes.
00:05:17.07\00:05:18.45
But, you know, in
France, the French Revolution--
00:05:18.46\00:05:20.71
Started with this
great idea of freedom.
00:05:20.72\00:05:22.66
Freedom, Liberty,
Equality, Fraternity.
00:05:22.67\00:05:24.47
Yeah. Where did it go?
00:05:24.48\00:05:25.65
Through the terror.
Yeah, the terror, yeah.
00:05:25.66\00:05:27.01
And then Napoleon,
the dictator in Europe.
00:05:27.02\00:05:30.39
But you know,
sometime you don't ask
00:05:30.40\00:05:32.17
if it is not a step towards
something better but still
00:05:32.18\00:05:36.55
you have the big
question, "What will happen?"
00:05:36.56\00:05:38.76
But at least, you
know, the principle come back
00:05:38.77\00:05:41.15
and it means that if you look at
what happened in Arab country,
00:05:41.16\00:05:45.08
you'll see that people in this
country are like other people
00:05:45.09\00:05:48.46
around the world,
they need freedom.
00:05:48.47\00:05:50.92
Why they should
need to have freedom?
00:05:50.93\00:05:53.12
Why they should be different?
They need all kind of freedom?
00:05:53.13\00:05:56.73
They need also
religious freedom.
00:05:56.74\00:05:58.82
They need to decide if they
want to have or not religion.
00:05:58.83\00:06:02.25
They need to decide if
they want to change a religion.
00:06:02.26\00:06:04.51
Well, this is what I want.
00:06:04.52\00:06:05.58
You've giving me the cue to play
the spoiler in this argument.
00:06:05.59\00:06:10.88
We know there's a revolutionary
shift in the Middle East.
00:06:10.89\00:06:13.99
I think the
discussion consider about
00:06:14.00\00:06:16.56
what are they pushing toward?
00:06:16.57\00:06:19.83
What was their aspiration?
00:06:19.84\00:06:22.07
There's been a lot said about
the Twitter and the facebook
00:06:23.83\00:06:26.71
and all the social media that
have stimulated people's desires
00:06:26.72\00:06:30.49
and help them
communicate and coordinate
00:06:30.50\00:06:32.80
as they've demonstrated.
00:06:32.81\00:06:34.25
I'm not really sure
thinking-- you know,
00:06:36.64\00:06:41.01
reviewing all
of these countries,
00:06:41.02\00:06:42.58
that any of those
countries have reacted against
00:06:42.59\00:06:45.68
their ruling system because they
want more religious freedom.
00:06:45.69\00:06:50.40
Probably not.
00:06:50.41\00:06:51.47
But, you know, in Egypt
you have a lot of Christians,
00:06:51.48\00:06:53.95
you know, being
with the demonstrators.
00:06:53.96\00:06:56.23
Why? Because they wanted to hand
00:06:56.24\00:06:58.20
the discrimination
and they believe really
00:06:58.21\00:07:00.58
that the revolution will
provide equality for them.
00:07:00.59\00:07:04.19
And in Egypt, 10% of
the population is Christian.
00:07:04.20\00:07:07.41
Some people say
that more than 10%.
00:07:07.42\00:07:08.94
May be 20 % by some figure--
00:07:08.95\00:07:10.23
Yeah, we don't know really.
00:07:10.24\00:07:11.72
But, you know, in other places
00:07:11.73\00:07:13.33
you don't have
anymore--lot of Jews.
00:07:13.34\00:07:15.45
You don't have
a lot of Christian
00:07:15.46\00:07:16.61
because Christians
tend to leave the country,
00:07:16.62\00:07:19.07
because they
don't see any future
00:07:19.08\00:07:20.66
for them in many Arabic country.
00:07:20.67\00:07:22.88
But which is interesting is when
you open the door to freedom
00:07:22.89\00:07:26.09
you cannot say, okay, freedom,
for all except for the religion.
00:07:26.10\00:07:30.21
Well, you might say
it-- You have to go there.
00:07:30.22\00:07:32.38
The point is, you're right,
once the system is changed
00:07:32.39\00:07:36.08
in the time of
change it's an opportunity
00:07:36.09\00:07:38.22
to call for
increase religious freedom.
00:07:38.23\00:07:40.76
So it's at least an opportunity
00:07:40.77\00:07:42.12
that may be
lost but change does.
00:07:42.13\00:07:44.96
What's the--
there's an Asian thing
00:07:44.97\00:07:46.90
about dangerous opportunity.
00:07:46.91\00:07:48.20
An Asian saying that, "Crisis
is a dangerous opportunity."
00:07:48.21\00:07:51.72
Yeah and of course,
you know, when you're--
00:07:51.73\00:07:54.37
when the revolution is done,
now you have to be practical
00:07:54.38\00:07:57.27
you have to-- who
will lead the country?
00:07:57.28\00:07:59.33
You need to experience people.
00:07:59.34\00:08:01.16
You need people who are
able to control their country
00:08:01.17\00:08:04.03
and at this time you look toward
those who are well organized.
00:08:04.04\00:08:07.62
And this is what
happened in this country those
00:08:07.63\00:08:09.51
who are very well organized
are the Muslim brotherhood.
00:08:09.52\00:08:12.64
In Egypt and some
other. They are well organized.
00:08:12.65\00:08:15.39
They can give a response,
you know, to their need,
00:08:15.40\00:08:18.77
but you know, what
would be the price.
00:08:18.78\00:08:20.76
And this is what happened in
Russia too with the communist,
00:08:20.77\00:08:23.58
you know, when you
had the revolution.
00:08:23.59\00:08:25.21
Position
themselves to take advantage--
00:08:25.22\00:08:26.70
People did not
want to become communist
00:08:26.71\00:08:28.34
but the best organization
was the communist organization
00:08:28.35\00:08:32.13
and they took over.
00:08:32.14\00:08:33.38
And since I-- you
and I have a history--
00:08:33.39\00:08:37.02
a sense of history
and we got viewers.
00:08:37.03\00:08:39.23
When you mentioned
the Russian Revolution
00:08:39.24\00:08:40.75
the communist taking
over, its worth remembering
00:08:40.76\00:08:42.73
which I think many people
have forgotten in the West.
00:08:42.74\00:08:45.48
That--after the
Russian Revolution,
00:08:45.49\00:08:48.12
it was the White
Russians who were of more,
00:08:48.13\00:08:50.92
they weren't western democrats
00:08:50.93\00:08:52.37
but they were
certainly not communists.
00:08:52.38\00:08:54.51
Yeah. They had the ascendancy
00:08:54.52\00:08:56.41
but they were slowly
defeated by the communists
00:08:56.42\00:08:59.34
who really hijacked
the revolution in somewhat.
00:08:59.35\00:09:01.78
Yeah, they
hijacked-- this is what happened
00:09:01.79\00:09:03.86
in some countries, you know,
it happened very, very often
00:09:03.87\00:09:06.50
when you have a revolution.
00:09:06.51\00:09:08.24
Because, you know,
revolution come from a feeling,
00:09:08.25\00:09:11.08
we need more freedom.
00:09:11.09\00:09:12.76
Now, how well, can you
do that and when you have,
00:09:12.77\00:09:15.84
you know, the government change,
00:09:15.85\00:09:17.81
but now you have to build
something here something else.
00:09:17.82\00:09:20.67
How can you do that?
00:09:20.68\00:09:21.96
You need really to be
very practical and a country,
00:09:21.97\00:09:25.28
you know, if you way
to have more problems.
00:09:25.29\00:09:27.34
It means you have to
face the very difficult time,
00:09:27.35\00:09:31.21
bring solution and
take your responsibility.
00:09:31.22\00:09:33.98
What I think and this is
what I'm sitting at discussion,
00:09:33.99\00:09:36.94
for I think, well no
country can impose on another.
00:09:36.95\00:09:40.06
But with the United Nations
we have influence certainly.
00:09:41.16\00:09:44.58
But I think this is the
time in this time of transition
00:09:44.59\00:09:47.27
for outside peoples
not countries per say.
00:09:47.28\00:09:50.93
But to encourage these
new entities toward openness
00:09:50.94\00:09:54.94
in religion and
other civil liberties
00:09:54.95\00:09:58.80
or else it might take
a bad default setting--
00:09:58.81\00:10:01.44
Another problem will be.
00:10:01.45\00:10:02.84
And I have an example
of where we didn't do this.
00:10:02.85\00:10:05.56
The United States,
unfortunately militarily
00:10:05.57\00:10:10.22
intervened in Iraq
and in Afghanistan,
00:10:10.23\00:10:13.65
and had a major
part in reformulating
00:10:13.66\00:10:17.07
the civil structure
of both those countries.
00:10:17.08\00:10:19.23
It had the position
of power and influence
00:10:19.24\00:10:23.01
and yet in both of those
countries the new constitutions
00:10:23.02\00:10:26.67
take a most un-liberal view
of religious freedom, is it not?
00:10:26.68\00:10:29.84
Yeah. It puts the
civil laws directly
00:10:29.85\00:10:34.28
under the control of
the Quran and for a Muslim
00:10:34.29\00:10:37.72
that's fine but
for religious freedom
00:10:37.73\00:10:39.57
for all that's very
dangerous to have one particular
00:10:39.58\00:10:42.12
religious viewpoint as the
default setting for civil--
00:10:42.13\00:10:45.07
Because also, you know,
the concept we have about
00:10:45.08\00:10:48.32
religious freedom is not
really very familiar to those
00:10:48.33\00:10:51.87
who are living in this
place in place of the world.
00:10:51.88\00:10:54.66
And even for in
Islam, many--for many
00:10:54.67\00:10:57.63
Muslim religious
freedom what does it mean.
00:10:57.64\00:11:00.37
You know, they are
not clear about it,
00:11:00.38\00:11:01.95
especially not
mean that you have
00:11:01.96\00:11:03.61
the right to
change your religion.
00:11:03.62\00:11:05.43
Because if you change
your religion that's it,
00:11:05.44\00:11:07.62
that's more than
just a contradiction.
00:11:07.63\00:11:09.88
It's a strong opposition.
It seems the denial of faith.
00:11:09.89\00:11:11.73
It's a denial of faith.
00:11:11.74\00:11:13.21
It mean, the way
you understand it.
00:11:13.22\00:11:14.98
It's a lot of
work to do to explain
00:11:14.99\00:11:17.37
and work which is
also very difficult because
00:11:17.38\00:11:20.40
during this time, you
know, people will be persecuted.
00:11:20.41\00:11:23.92
People will be arrested.
People will be discriminated.
00:11:23.93\00:11:27.52
And I don't think it will
change to the next few years.
00:11:27.53\00:11:31.76
Unfortunately, I should say. No.
00:11:31.77\00:11:33.58
But we're--all of us now
are in the box seat to watch
00:11:33.59\00:11:38.66
usually slow historical
process in fast motion
00:11:38.67\00:11:41.77
in a whole area of the world.
00:11:41.78\00:11:44.06
I think it's a
historic moment. Yeah.
00:11:44.07\00:11:46.05
You know, this
is the sort of thing
00:11:46.06\00:11:47.08
you read about in history books
00:11:47.09\00:11:48.31
and we're seeing
convulsion after convulsion,
00:11:48.32\00:11:51.19
overtake a whole area of
countries and good things
00:11:51.20\00:11:56.01
but certainly and
bad can come out of that.
00:11:56.02\00:11:57.87
But we hope working for
religious freedom that some
00:11:57.88\00:12:01.29
little light can come in this
tunnel that they're going to--
00:12:01.30\00:12:03.75
Of course, we hope
and we will do our best,
00:12:03.76\00:12:05.77
you know, to help
the people to understand
00:12:05.78\00:12:08.74
that religious freedom is also--
it's also a guarantee of peace.
00:12:08.75\00:12:14.25
But I think as we
discussed at the beginning,
00:12:14.26\00:12:17.50
there's some reason for
hope because the impetus
00:12:17.51\00:12:20.83
for this was sort of a
stirring of the people psyche
00:12:20.84\00:12:24.27
just wanting to be free of these
different bonds that they had.
00:12:24.28\00:12:27.16
Never not all the
same in each country
00:12:27.17\00:12:29.02
but they didn't like
the established order.
00:12:29.03\00:12:31.20
They felt it was
repressive to human expression.
00:12:31.21\00:12:35.05
I think, by and large.
Yeah and that is something--
00:12:35.06\00:12:37.25
Even though they might
want to express a narrow
00:12:37.26\00:12:39.11
religious viewpoint
or an equally narrow
00:12:39.12\00:12:41.89
religious
viewpoint, they want change
00:12:41.90\00:12:44.39
and at the time of
change something positive
00:12:44.40\00:12:46.80
could be interjected.
00:12:46.81\00:12:48.24
We'll be back to continue this
discussion after a short break.
00:12:48.25\00:12:51.59
Stay with us, please.
00:12:51.60\00:12:52.72
One-hundred years, a
long time to do anything,
00:13:02.18\00:13:05.85
much less publish a magazine,
but this year, Liberty,
00:13:05.86\00:13:09.88
the Seventh-day Adventist
voice of Religious Freedom,
00:13:09.89\00:13:12.54
celebrates one hundred years
of doing what it does best,
00:13:12.55\00:13:16.24
collecting, analyzing,
and reporting the ebb and flow
00:13:16.25\00:13:19.76
of religious
expression around the world.
00:13:19.77\00:13:22.52
Issue after
issue, Liberty has taken
00:13:22.53\00:13:25.04
on the tough assignments,
00:13:25.05\00:13:26.56
tracking down
threats to Religious Freedom
00:13:26.57\00:13:28.51
and exposing the
work of the devil
00:13:28.52\00:13:30.09
in every corner of the globe.
00:13:30.10\00:13:32.37
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:32.38\00:13:35.12
corporate assaults,
even Religious Freedom issues
00:13:35.13\00:13:37.76
sequestered within the
Church community itself
00:13:37.77\00:13:40.07
have been clearly
and honestly exposed.
00:13:40.08\00:13:43.26
Liberty exists for one
purpose to help God's people
00:13:43.27\00:13:46.79
maintain that all important
separation of Church and State,
00:13:46.80\00:13:50.53
while recognizing the dangers
inherent in such a struggle.
00:13:50.54\00:13:54.55
During the past
century, Liberty has experienced
00:13:54.56\00:13:57.24
challenges of its own,
but it remains on the job.
00:13:57.25\00:14:00.34
Thanks to the inspired
leadership of a long line
00:14:00.35\00:14:03.53
of dedicated
Adventist Editors, three of whom
00:14:03.54\00:14:05.60
represent almost half of
the publication's existence
00:14:05.61\00:14:08.52
and the foresight of a
little woman from New England.
00:14:08.53\00:14:11.70
One hundred years of struggle,
one hundred years of victories,
00:14:11.71\00:14:16.19
religious
freedom isn't just about
00:14:16.20\00:14:18.02
political machines
and cultural prejudices.
00:14:18.03\00:14:20.86
It's about people
fighting for the right to serve
00:14:20.87\00:14:24.29
the God they
love as their hearts
00:14:24.30\00:14:26.53
and the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:26.54\00:14:29.06
Thanks to the
prayers and generous support
00:14:29.07\00:14:31.20
of Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere.
00:14:31.21\00:14:33.54
Liberty will continue
to accomplish its work
00:14:33.55\00:14:35.91
of providing timely information,
spirit filled inspiration,
00:14:35.92\00:14:39.18
and heaven sent encouragement
to all who long to live
00:14:39.19\00:14:43.09
and work in a
world bound together
00:14:43.10\00:14:45.67
by the God ordained
bonds of religious freedom.
00:14:45.68\00:14:49.68
Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:14:59.91\00:15:02.15
Before the break, I was
discussing with Dr. John Graz,
00:15:02.16\00:15:06.19
the revolutionary fervor
that's sweeping the world
00:15:06.20\00:15:09.21
or at least the Middle East.
00:15:09.22\00:15:11.16
But I think it's
bleeding over into Europe.
00:15:11.17\00:15:13.80
England even had riots
that, lot of people put down
00:15:13.81\00:15:16.65
to just spoiled young people,
but I think it was indicative
00:15:16.66\00:15:19.97
of the sort of
throwing off the shackles
00:15:19.98\00:15:22.18
of whatever system people have.
00:15:22.19\00:15:23.92
But in the Middle East,
there are legitimate reasons
00:15:23.93\00:15:28.32
that the populous want
to break free, aren't they?
00:15:28.33\00:15:30.52
Oh! Yes. They need more freedom
and they ask for more freedom.
00:15:30.53\00:15:31.94
Absolutely, they
have been restricted.
00:15:31.95\00:15:33.52
They have lived not just under--
I'm trying to think of it a word
00:15:33.53\00:15:38.53
to describe, a system that takes
everything from the people.
00:15:38.54\00:15:44.98
But they were very
repressive even Mubarak,
00:15:44.99\00:15:47.66
in the name of
repressing Islam had really kept
00:15:47.67\00:15:51.88
the permanent
state of emergency.
00:15:51.89\00:15:54.11
They didn't have
the freedom they wanted.
00:15:54.12\00:15:55.89
They were looking on
TV or on the internet
00:15:55.90\00:15:58.61
and discussing with people,
in other parts of the world
00:15:58.62\00:16:00.82
who are
expressing themselves freely
00:16:00.83\00:16:02.36
and they couldn't and the
result was, the top blew-off.
00:16:02.37\00:16:05.26
Oh yeah, I remember watching,
you know, report about Libya,
00:16:05.27\00:16:08.43
and people who
are in the street say,
00:16:08.44\00:16:10.39
"Now, we can say what we want.
00:16:10.40\00:16:12.46
We are not
afraid to be arrested."
00:16:12.47\00:16:14.50
And that's something
which is may be probably
00:16:14.51\00:16:17.28
difficult to understand
when you are living in a country
00:16:17.29\00:16:20.34
where you have,
you know, a freedom.
00:16:20.35\00:16:22.80
It's protected by
the institution and so on
00:16:22.81\00:16:25.35
when you can speak
and that's difficult
00:16:25.36\00:16:28.51
to understand that
there are places in the world
00:16:28.52\00:16:30.55
where people
cannot speak openly.
00:16:30.56\00:16:32.72
They have to be
careful all the time
00:16:32.73\00:16:34.92
because they believe
that they can be arrested.
00:16:34.93\00:16:37.42
They cannot trust
another one because they believe
00:16:37.43\00:16:40.36
that they can be also arrested
because speaking openly.
00:16:40.37\00:16:44.10
That's, you know, it creates
a very oppressive climates.
00:16:44.11\00:16:47.17
Absolutely, and a lot of
people I think misunderstand
00:16:47.18\00:16:49.66
what most of these
oppressive regimes are like.
00:16:49.67\00:16:52.17
It doesn't mean that
every time you say something,
00:16:52.18\00:16:55.41
every time you
witnesses, a Christian say that,
00:16:55.42\00:16:58.11
"Bad things happen."
00:16:58.12\00:16:59.43
But it happens
often enough and it's--
00:16:59.44\00:17:02.47
Yeah, it creates--
00:17:02.48\00:17:03.59
That may be one time in
a hundred, but you know,
00:17:03.60\00:17:06.62
that it's likely to
happen if you do that
00:17:06.63\00:17:08.65
and you don't know
when the axe comes down.
00:17:08.66\00:17:10.46
So that means that
everything is inhibited.
00:17:10.47\00:17:12.25
Yeah. Imagine
that you're living here
00:17:12.26\00:17:14.47
and imagine that
you're always a policeman
00:17:14.48\00:17:16.73
or everything
you say that it's--
00:17:16.74\00:17:19.41
is listened by, to by someone.
00:17:19.42\00:17:22.40
And you can
have a lot of problem
00:17:22.41\00:17:24.68
and it can change
totally your way of thinking
00:17:24.69\00:17:27.50
and you have to be
careful about everything.
00:17:27.51\00:17:29.38
You're afraid. You
don't want to say what--
00:17:29.39\00:17:32.11
and of course, and
after you don't think
00:17:32.12\00:17:34.60
by yourself because
if you think by yourself
00:17:34.61\00:17:37.50
and you cannot
express what you are feeling
00:17:37.51\00:17:40.50
and what you are
thinking, you may have problem.
00:17:40.51\00:17:44.34
It means it
reduced your capacity
00:17:44.35\00:17:47.30
to develop-- to
develop yourself.
00:17:47.31\00:17:50.14
Absolutely, and in some ways it
starts to change your thinking,
00:17:50.15\00:17:52.85
that's what those repressive
regimes are hoping for.
00:17:52.86\00:17:55.74
Yeah. That you turn away from
00:17:55.75\00:17:57.09
independent thought and become
one of--more of the sheep.
00:17:57.10\00:17:59.66
More docile and-- Docile, yes.
00:17:59.67\00:18:01.47
You will not react
again, so really not to ask,
00:18:01.48\00:18:04.12
you know, what they are doing.
00:18:04.13\00:18:06.55
You have-- you
lose your capacity
00:18:06.56\00:18:09.92
to maybe to
challenge what is wrong.
00:18:09.93\00:18:13.86
By the way you mentioned Libya.
00:18:13.87\00:18:16.07
I got a page here from a
book that I worked that I will--
00:18:16.08\00:18:22.18
It's a world report.
Yes, well I want to say
00:18:22.19\00:18:24.99
what it was but-- We
published the world report--
00:18:25.00\00:18:27.09
But here on Libya's populations
00:18:27.10\00:18:28.99
six million two hundred
and eighty-three thousand,
00:18:29.00\00:18:30.75
not a very big country.
00:18:30.76\00:18:31.91
I come from a very small
population country Australia.
00:18:31.92\00:18:35.22
Twenty-five million but this
is much, much smaller, Libya.
00:18:35.23\00:18:39.64
Sunni Muslims 97%.
Other, which I presume
00:18:39.65\00:18:43.30
means some other
Muslims too-- Yeah.
00:18:43.31\00:18:45.36
Three percent. Yeah, yeah.
00:18:45.37\00:18:46.44
Seventh-Day Adventist 72. Yeah.
00:18:46.45\00:18:49.57
And probably, most of them come
from Africa and they're workers.
00:18:49.58\00:18:51.88
Guest workers and so on. Yeah.
00:18:51.89\00:18:53.67
The 1968 Constitution
which, I'm not sure if that
00:18:53.68\00:18:57.12
predates Gaddafi's year or not
00:18:57.13\00:18:59.40
but he went back
many, many years.
00:18:59.41\00:19:01.96
But the constitution
states in Article 2,
00:19:01.97\00:19:04.49
"Islam is the
religion of the state
00:19:04.50\00:19:06.39
and Arabic is its
official language.
00:19:06.40\00:19:08.86
The state
protects religious freedom
00:19:08.87\00:19:10.76
in accordance with
established customs."
00:19:10.77\00:19:13.04
There's some
visa language for you.
00:19:13.05\00:19:16.36
Established custom in 97
plus percent Islamic country
00:19:16.37\00:19:21.22
would be that Islam is protected
00:19:21.23\00:19:22.71
and other country--
other religions not much.
00:19:22.72\00:19:26.27
But at least
enough to allow people
00:19:26.28\00:19:27.93
to at least have an
identity other than Islam.
00:19:27.94\00:19:31.82
Yes, this is--I read
from that on purpose.
00:19:31.83\00:19:35.34
Your department has
produced for how many years now?
00:19:35.35\00:19:38.62
Oh! At least 10 years now.
For about 10 years, every year--
00:19:38.63\00:19:42.34
Every two years now.
00:19:42.35\00:19:43.45
Every two years I
thought it was annually.
00:19:43.46\00:19:45.38
But yes this is 2000--
00:19:45.39\00:19:46.67
Two years, yeah,
the world reform.
00:19:46.68\00:19:48.22
A religious freedom world report
00:19:48.23\00:19:50.39
which I know is widely
quoted and referred to.
00:19:50.40\00:19:53.13
I've been in many meetings
with other representatives
00:19:53.14\00:19:56.40
and they refer to
this, not just Adventist.
00:19:56.41\00:19:58.93
Two hundred and four countries
00:19:58.94\00:20:00.37
are really
analyzed in this report.
00:20:00.38\00:20:03.64
And, you know, it's not
all generated just by us
00:20:03.65\00:20:07.01
but it's collected by us
from authoritative sources,
00:20:07.02\00:20:10.07
some of our own church
contexts and up-to-date news--
00:20:10.08\00:20:14.20
Because, you
know, you have country
00:20:14.21\00:20:15.78
where it's clear that the state
00:20:15.79\00:20:18.25
is producing restriction
about religious freedom.
00:20:18.26\00:20:21.62
But in some other country,
the state try to protect
00:20:21.63\00:20:24.25
religious freedom but, you know,
the state is not strong enough
00:20:24.26\00:20:28.35
to make sure that religious
minority will be protected.
00:20:28.36\00:20:33.56
It means you have a kind
of militia attacking churches
00:20:33.57\00:20:36.87
and it happened
in several countries
00:20:36.88\00:20:38.87
or attacking other people
just because of their religion.
00:20:38.88\00:20:42.19
Yes, and I remember
an element of that in,
00:20:42.20\00:20:45.37
I'm trying to think of
the county down East Timor
00:20:48.46\00:20:50.82
where we visited. Yeah.
00:20:50.83\00:20:51.92
They have, what I
thought was a fairly good
00:20:51.93\00:20:54.06
legal structure
for religious freedom.
00:20:54.07\00:20:56.39
But out in the
villages, people were being
00:20:56.40\00:20:58.50
not just harassed, they
were being physically set upon.
00:20:58.51\00:21:02.26
And when we told
the government leaders,
00:21:02.27\00:21:03.96
they were troubled by
that, but they basically said,
00:21:03.97\00:21:06.36
"We can't do much about it."
00:21:06.37\00:21:07.74
So if a state throws
up its hands and says,
00:21:07.75\00:21:10.32
"Well, we want the best
but it's out of our control.
00:21:10.33\00:21:12.63
The people have done
this. "Effectively, they--
00:21:12.64\00:21:14.67
And also there're--
there are country like Pakistan
00:21:14.68\00:21:18.53
where you have
this blasphemy law
00:21:18.54\00:21:20.96
which is on tie
blasphemy law which is something
00:21:20.97\00:21:23.45
very terrible about the
climate, because you know,
00:21:23.46\00:21:26.63
you have Christian living
there, you have people from
00:21:26.64\00:21:28.76
other religion and everything
they can say can be interpreted
00:21:28.77\00:21:32.36
as something against, you know,
00:21:32.37\00:21:34.38
the prophet and against the
Quran and they can go to court.
00:21:34.39\00:21:38.93
Absolutely. And they can spend
00:21:38.94\00:21:39.93
years and years
and they even can be
00:21:39.94\00:21:42.06
executed or
killed by extremists--
00:21:42.07\00:21:43.90
People have been,
it's not just Iraq--
00:21:43.91\00:21:45.86
You remember-- But
that's the law--that's,
00:21:45.87\00:21:48.15
yes that's the law of Pakistan
and you can hold that country
00:21:48.16\00:21:52.93
to account but this is not a--
00:21:52.94\00:21:56.30
it's not really a
21st century law at all.
00:21:56.31\00:21:58.62
I mean, it's medieval apart
from it being biased toward
00:21:58.63\00:22:01.79
a particular
religion, it's just a medieval--
00:22:01.80\00:22:03.63
If you see, when
you want to talk,
00:22:03.64\00:22:05.36
you know, you
talk you are Christian
00:22:05.37\00:22:07.64
or you are Buddhist and so on.
00:22:07.65\00:22:09.40
And you say that,
"I believe that Jesus.
00:22:09.41\00:22:11.61
I believe that
Jesus is the son of God."
00:22:11.62\00:22:13.69
It could be taken as an insult.
00:22:13.70\00:22:15.88
To Islam because-- To Islam.
00:22:15.89\00:22:16.95
Islam says, "Not. That
He was just a prophet."
00:22:16.96\00:22:19.29
Oh, I believe that the
Bible is a book inspired by God.
00:22:19.30\00:22:23.56
It could be taken or
interpreted as an insult
00:22:23.57\00:22:26.50
and you can be
arrested just for that.
00:22:26.51\00:22:29.16
They can take
everything you have.
00:22:29.17\00:22:30.85
You can spend your life
in jail, because you know,
00:22:30.86\00:22:32.91
the judge will be
afraid about the radical,
00:22:32.92\00:22:35.62
the extremists
because the extremists
00:22:35.63\00:22:37.92
will say to the judge,
00:22:37.93\00:22:39.28
"If you make free these
people we will kill you."
00:22:39.29\00:22:41.96
Yeah. And you can imagine
00:22:41.97\00:22:43.63
living in such a context.
00:22:43.64\00:22:45.74
This is what happened when you
don't have religious freedom.
00:22:45.75\00:22:48.67
It's a very
concrete and this is why
00:22:48.68\00:22:50.98
also we believe that
people living in North Africa,
00:22:50.99\00:22:54.05
in Egypt, deserve
religious freedom.
00:22:54.06\00:22:57.40
They deserve the right to think,
to take a position, to decide--
00:22:57.41\00:23:01.14
At least a chance to think
00:23:01.15\00:23:02.17
this thing
through and decide firmly
00:23:02.18\00:23:03.44
And to get information.
Do this we want this.
00:23:03.45\00:23:05.41
What I was gonna say
going back to Pakistan
00:23:05.42\00:23:07.70
that law on blasphemy
00:23:07.71\00:23:09.76
is in their constitution
and it's unfortunate.
00:23:09.77\00:23:13.31
But there's another practice
there, it's not uncommon
00:23:13.32\00:23:17.56
when a child particularly
wants to leave Islam.
00:23:17.57\00:23:20.87
The parents will
actually sometimes kill them,
00:23:20.88\00:23:23.72
usually
daughters, they'll kill them
00:23:23.73\00:23:26.34
sort of as an honor-- a
religious honor killing.
00:23:26.35\00:23:29.38
And there's no law
saying that they should.
00:23:29.39\00:23:32.74
And of course,
murder--laws against murder
00:23:32.75\00:23:36.13
would normally bring a penalty,
but never once as the government
00:23:36.14\00:23:40.52
ever prosecuted
anyone for doing that--
00:23:40.53\00:23:42.90
They're, I
think, they are afraid.
00:23:42.91\00:23:44.96
There's a situation.
00:23:44.97\00:23:46.15
Yeah, the state is complicit
in that by not intervening.
00:23:46.16\00:23:50.25
Yeah. So it can be egregious law
00:23:50.26\00:23:52.75
against religious
liberty or a state being part
00:23:52.76\00:23:56.23
of the dynamic
that results in people
00:23:56.24\00:23:58.28
being harassed and persecuted.
00:23:58.29\00:23:59.66
You know what
happened in Pakistan
00:23:59.67\00:24:01.02
where the minister-minister
of a government and a governor--
00:24:01.03\00:24:05.38
For religious affairs.
00:24:05.39\00:24:06.43
Yeah, for religious affair
and the Governor of Punjab,
00:24:06.44\00:24:08.87
you know, they oppose--
00:24:08.88\00:24:10.44
openly oppose to
their law against blasphemy.
00:24:10.45\00:24:13.42
What happened to them?
00:24:13.43\00:24:14.82
They were
killed, they were killed.
00:24:14.83\00:24:16.50
And even if you are--
you are the chief of police
00:24:16.51\00:24:19.32
or the judge and
so on, you think about
00:24:19.33\00:24:21.96
your own safety and you say,
00:24:21.97\00:24:23.64
"I want to mind,
that's a very risky."
00:24:23.65\00:24:26.02
And in this kind of climate you
cannot really have a justice.
00:24:26.03\00:24:30.24
It's--it's you
have no chance to win.
00:24:30.25\00:24:33.59
It meant
something has to be changed
00:24:33.60\00:24:35.83
and we have to come
back to the basic principle
00:24:35.84\00:24:38.42
of freedom and
religious freedom.
00:24:38.43\00:24:41.29
Yeah, so there's really
two options it seems to me.
00:24:41.30\00:24:43.55
We've spoken in
another program about the UN
00:24:43.56\00:24:46.18
and international agencies
bringing external pressure.
00:24:46.19\00:24:49.39
Or as this happening
with the Arab Spring.
00:24:49.40\00:24:51.06
The people
themselves can be empowered.
00:24:51.07\00:24:52.94
Yeah. To push back and to make
00:24:52.95\00:24:56.00
a new norm that you would
hope would be more informed
00:24:56.01\00:24:59.67
and calculated
to defend all people
00:24:59.68\00:25:01.81
not just a few self-interested
groups within the system.
00:25:01.82\00:25:05.31
But it's a long way, you know,
00:25:05.32\00:25:07.11
because you have
to understand that,
00:25:07.12\00:25:08.64
you know, you can
live in a same country,
00:25:08.65\00:25:11.75
have a strong
government and a strong country
00:25:11.76\00:25:14.55
even if you have
different point of view,
00:25:14.56\00:25:16.48
even if you have
different religion.
00:25:16.49\00:25:18.42
Because you have
always this way of thinking
00:25:18.43\00:25:20.53
that you need to be
one, have just one religion,
00:25:20.54\00:25:23.83
one government and so on.
00:25:23.84\00:25:25.68
But no, you can be different.
00:25:25.69\00:25:27.93
You have to build one
country, but you could have
00:25:27.94\00:25:31.33
different religion and
different way of thinking.
00:25:31.34\00:25:33.72
Well, yeah, the
view of plurality
00:25:33.73\00:25:35.09
is of course alien
to a lot of cultures,
00:25:35.10\00:25:37.24
but we definitely
hope that this Arab Spring,
00:25:37.25\00:25:40.00
which in some
ways is spreading a bit
00:25:40.01\00:25:41.82
but it's involved
most of the Arab world,
00:25:41.83\00:25:44.47
that some good comes out of it,
00:25:44.48\00:25:45.92
not just civil
general structural civil good,
00:25:45.93\00:25:48.83
but that in the
area of religious liberty
00:25:48.84\00:25:50.49
and civil rights the
people can be empowered
00:25:50.50\00:25:53.71
to move in positive directions.
00:25:53.72\00:25:55.32
But it does remind me as
the Sevent-day Adventist,
00:25:55.33\00:25:57.16
Ellen White, writing
years ago about the end of time,
00:25:57.17\00:26:00.92
said something with the affect
that throughout the whole world
00:26:00.93\00:26:03.74
there'll be scenes
like the French Revolution.
00:26:03.75\00:26:05.95
And when I look at Syria Square,
00:26:05.96\00:26:07.42
I think this is
French Revolution.
00:26:07.43\00:26:08.92
People rising up, and
agitating and demonstrating
00:26:08.93\00:26:12.02
and some little violence and
pushback from both directions.
00:26:12.03\00:26:15.16
But it's an
exciting time, isn't it?
00:26:15.17\00:26:16.93
Yeah, it's an exciting time.
00:26:16.94\00:26:18.72
And, you know,
what happened today
00:26:18.73\00:26:21.11
in several Arab countries,
it's interesting because
00:26:21.12\00:26:24.88
it shows that you cannot
deprive people of freedom.
00:26:24.89\00:26:28.39
One day or another they will ask
for what is it really normal,
00:26:28.40\00:26:33.58
you know, they deserve freedom
00:26:33.59\00:26:35.28
and I think people
living in this country.
00:26:35.29\00:26:37.41
And I think Arabic
people, Arab people,
00:26:37.42\00:26:39.96
deserve the same
freedom we have elsewhere.
00:26:39.97\00:26:43.66
They deserve like
us religious freedom.
00:26:43.67\00:26:46.32
It's exciting to be alive
during a period of revolution
00:26:47.61\00:26:51.25
at least to observe
it, not to be in it.
00:26:51.26\00:26:54.08
But it's worth
remembering that shortly
00:26:54.09\00:26:56.83
after the death of Christ,
there was an amazing revolution
00:26:56.84\00:27:00.75
as the--His disciples fend
out around the known world.
00:27:00.76\00:27:06.70
We talk about
the gospel commission
00:27:06.71\00:27:08.21
but the reality is that within
a lifetime they had covered
00:27:08.22\00:27:12.51
the entire
known world and spread
00:27:12.52\00:27:14.87
the gospel of Jesus
Christ, which involved
00:27:14.88\00:27:18.09
telling His story,
about His life incarnation,
00:27:18.10\00:27:21.92
miracles and of
course, His resurrection.
00:27:21.93\00:27:26.16
Today, as we look at events
in that part of the world,
00:27:26.17\00:27:29.63
the old world, the Middle East
and see revolution stirring.
00:27:29.64\00:27:34.12
We know that
there're many forces at play.
00:27:34.13\00:27:36.30
The old despotism
may not be dead yet
00:27:36.31\00:27:39.47
and religious
intolerance may yet rise again.
00:27:39.48\00:27:43.34
But just as that period
when a gospel of freedom
00:27:43.35\00:27:46.84
spread out
following Christ ministry.
00:27:46.85\00:27:49.95
So today, I believe
the spirit of freedom,
00:27:49.96\00:27:52.69
the spirit of religious
liberty has one more chance
00:27:52.70\00:27:56.06
to manifest itself even in
a world that is known lately,
00:27:56.07\00:28:00.40
only repression,
only dogmatic repression.
00:28:00.41\00:28:04.79
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:04.80\00:28:07.38