Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a
program that's designed
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to bring you
breaking news, information
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and explanatory discussion
about religious liberty
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events in the United
States and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine
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and the guest on this
program is, Dr. John Graz.
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Hi, Lincoln. Welcome, John.
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Very pleased to
be with you, Lincoln.
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Every time I have
you on this program
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which has been
several times before,
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I hesitate on
how to introduce you,
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because you have too
many titles to say quickly,
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but you are the, the
Director for this world's
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headquarters of the
Seventh Adventist Church
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for Religious Liberty.
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And public affairs.
And public affairs and--
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as well as that the.
Secretary General--Secretary
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International
Religiously Liberty Association,
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that's they are
my, my two main hats.
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Now one of your associates
has, has almost a full time
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responsibility to interact
with the United Nation I know.
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United Nation yes, but
now it's a Dr. Ganune Diop.
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And I, when I think about
that, I think about sort of--
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universal
absolutes that they're trying
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to present and, and I, I think
of history and, and on law,
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you know, people refer
back to so long and his,
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his rulership many year ago.
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Yeah, yeah. Think
about the laws of Hammurabi,
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the code of Hammurabi, the--
Magna Carta, the Magna Carta.
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The Ten Commandments of course.
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Ten
Commandments. Ten Commandments
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Absolutely. Which
are really the basic--
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Yeah, and when you talk
about the United States,
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you think about the constitution
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and the legal
absolutes that is brought down.
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But when I think
about the United Nations,
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I don't think about
its charter per say.
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I'm talking about something
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called the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights--
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Human Rights, I think that
is, is the shining center peace
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of what they are trying
to project on the world.
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Yeah, and-- of course you know,
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lot of people in America
doesn't know that they even
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don't know what
is the United Nation,
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but they have to remember
that it was really created
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under the influence
of the American, Wilson,
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and Ileana Wilson was really
the one who worked almost as a,
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you know, leader of the--
commission which produced--
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Even, Ileana Roosevelt.
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Ileana Roosevelt,
Wilson was before.
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I think the Wilson was a--
historical slip of the tongue,
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because I connect
the United Nations
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to the League of Nations.
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Yeah, which was
President Wilson,
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that was his dream
to unite the world.
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And Lincoln, if
you go to Geneva,
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you have still, you
know, a big building
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which is called
the Palais Wilson well,
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you know, you have the
committee of human rights,
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United Nation
Committee of Human Rights.
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And I sometime
think, President Wilson
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got a bad rap,
because just because
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the League of
Nations didn't survive,
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I don't think its
proof that his whole efforts
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were frustrated,
because the United Nations
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is the natural outgrowth
to that type of thinking.
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And the idea came
after the Second World War.
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Absolutely. And
specially because, you know,
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when people saw the,
the result of such a war
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that 100 million people
were killed between the war
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and during the war
and that was, you know,
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they said that we
have to do something,
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we cannot just
let things going like
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that centuries after centuries.
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Well there were
too many million,
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this talk still of six million
Jews killed in by Germany,
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but I know they
were 20 million Russians
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killed in the war, correctly.
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In the war and between
the war, 20 more millions--
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So you add up all of
the casualties civilian
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and military of World War Two,
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it's an immense amount and so--
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And also, you know, this--
wiliness to destroy people like
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the Jew people just
because they were different.
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They say we have to,
to think differently,
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we have to accept
the different you know,
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we accept, we have
to accept that people
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can have all, I
know their religion
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and not to persecute them
because they are different.
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Yeah, I also in the
mindset that let this establish
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with the United Nations.
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I've never read this,
but I did use this for my
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study of history
that even the victory,
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the victors the
United States and its allies,
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I think were so good
by what they had done.
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Yeah. I think the United States
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dropping the atomic bomb
on Hiroshima and Nagasaki
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at good military Russian
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all at the time
but it was shocking.
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Yeah. That's
why now the US leads
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the way in nonproliferation
of nuclear weapons.
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I think the carpet
bombing of Germany,
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where they were
bombing civilians.
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At the end of it,
I thought we can't,
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can't let this
happen-- We cannot do that yet,
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we cannot do it any more, yeah.
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It wasn't that President Lincoln
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refer to our better
angels, they wanted to,
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to pull men kind
of back and it wasn't
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the religious movement,
but in the humanisticway
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draw people and
countries up to better behavior.
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Yeah, but you know, they were
also influenced by Christian,
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we can say about by
the gospel in some ways.
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I think-- Specially
their leaders, you know, they,
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they you had
these concept behind.
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Well, gospel is one
thing, but the Biblical concept
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is there to this day,
is it around the side,
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there's a statue of a man in
forging with metal and it says,
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they shall beat their
swords into plowshares,
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you know, that
text is from Ezekiel.
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Yeah, I think its. Its
an-- Old Testament text that it,
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its really referring
to the kingdom of God,
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but where the ways of men and
war in that way you see which--
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Yeah, it became a very important
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text for the United Nations.
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That will change
the, the weapons of war
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into weapons of production.
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That was a dream yeah,
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and I think that
we have to understand
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that the wiliness of
people trying to say,
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you know, instead
to fight each other,
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we have to talk each other.
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And if we have a problem,
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lets talk and try
to find the best way,
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that was really
at the origin and,
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and we have this
is the positive side
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and the United Nation
also in spite of many, many
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weaknesses, you
know, its the only place
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in the world were you can
talk openly about human right
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without being arrested,
were you can talk about
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religious freedom,
you know, every meeting
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of the Universal of the Council
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of Human Right in Geneva,
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you have an item
about religious freedom.
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You have people who are
sending different countries
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to monitor the
state of religious freedom
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and they comeback and, Lincoln,
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even more we as
association and as a church,
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we can speak before you know,
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all the representative of
the government of the world--
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We have access,
we have three minutes
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on every item, it means
we can give the position
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of the Adventist Church and--
we can also give the position
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of the international
religious liberty association,
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now just think about you know,
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someone who can speak
toward all the government
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of the world its
almost prophetic.
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Absolutely. You can say
this is as an Adventist,
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this is what we believe.
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And, and you're
underscoring in reminding us
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of this what I put in
the 2012 promotional campaign
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for Liberty
magazine that goes out mostly
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to our own church
members, but we've done it under
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the title this year
of a world of opportunity
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and United
Nations is the world forum
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and I think there is open
doors for us to talk about
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freedom as never before
even though and by many markers
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you know, its in trouble
in lots of the world but,
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but they open
this for discussion
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as there is never before.
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It is fabulous. And for
church people I accept--
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And then what happen you know,
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you will receive my
associate Dr. Diope,
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will tell you the
story when you give a speech
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you have three minutes,
very most of the time after
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you have people
from different government
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they come and they ask you text
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and you start to talk with them.
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When you have a problem
with the church you know,
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like we had in some countries
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you go to the
human right commission
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you meet the
ambassador of these countries
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and this is the
fabulous place to talk about
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religious freedom, you
know, you don't need them
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in the economic form
were they don't care--
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That's their business,
they get in first, yeah.
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You need them in a place
where people are talking about
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defending and
promoting human right
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and you sit with
them, there is a problem
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in your country
we're from minority.
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And of course they are more open
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that if you met them, if
you had met them somewhere else,
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it means there is a
fabulous opportunity to,
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to be there and to work
to defend freedom there.
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Now even as you're
talking about this,
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it hit me that many
people may not quite understand
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what you threw in.
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United Nations, those
American particularly,
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you still remember
it and see the pictures
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and you open up
that, iconic building
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next to the Hudson River.
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Yeah. But we have enough as
you were mentioning Geneva--
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Geneva yes,
everything which is connected
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with human rights is in Geneva,
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this is why for us
Geneva is very important.
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So it still the United Nations
but in Geneva, Switzerland,
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and the human
rights element there enough
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to drive them past and around,
there's quite a compound.
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Yeah. It's a huge presence,
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its not just did a
little quiet corner.
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No, that's the
big, the big building.
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Switzerland was and--
still is it in many ways
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the diplomatic
center of world activities.
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Yeah, exactly. So New York
is were the headquarter is,
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but Geneva,
Switzerland, is very important.
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Yeah, and you know, the
decision which have been
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which will be taken in Geneva,
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of course brought to New
York and presented before the--
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General assembly.
General assembly and vote it,
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but the work is done
about human right in Geneva.
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Yeah, it is not just
ask they can talk there
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I don't think many
people who watch the news
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quite understand
when how many, it gets up
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in the General Assembly
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or some years ago I remember
for their Fidel Castro when,
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when the USA recently invaded
this country or tried to,
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still there is a, there is
a neutral forum where they,
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the leaders can
travel and say there piece.
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Exactly. It's a
wonderful testament
00:10:08.41\00:10:10.01
to the, the, the,
the-- yearning toward
00:10:10.02\00:10:12.75
in open free
society in the world.
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You know, these
people came also to Geneva
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to the human right
council and of course you know,
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after we have the right to react
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and we have the right to
say, you know the United Nation
00:10:21.37\00:10:24.56
is well known for the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights.
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Yes. Or Universal
Declaration of Human Right
00:10:27.85\00:10:30.60
article 18 say that everyone
has the right of freedom
00:10:30.61\00:10:34.79
and the freedom of religion
and the thought everyone.
00:10:34.80\00:10:39.18
Its an incredible
statement, now you have a book
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that you've written on
issues of faith and freedom.
00:10:41.31\00:10:44.20
Yeah. And I know
there is a chapter
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in there about this
Universal Declaration.
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Yeah, I can read if you want--
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Can you read the
declaration or b this article?
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I think that's so important--
00:10:51.48\00:10:53.26
Its really one of our
guiding principles apart
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from Biblical
truth and Revelation
00:10:55.78\00:10:58.79
as far as seeing its very, very
simple directions its clear--
00:10:58.80\00:11:01.69
Article 18 it states, everyone
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has the right to
freedom of thought,
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conscience and
religion, everyone you know,
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they don't say every
family, or every group,
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or every tribe,
everyone individual,
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and this right
includes freedom to change,
00:11:12.70\00:11:18.51
which is so
important you know,--
00:11:18.52\00:11:20.22
to change his
religion or believe,
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you are free to change if you
want and freedom either alone
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or in community with
others in public or private
00:11:26.13\00:11:30.63
to manifest his
religion or believe in teaching,
00:11:30.64\00:11:35.91
practice, worship
and observant you know,
00:11:35.92\00:11:39.09
there're right to
preach the Gospel,
00:11:39.10\00:11:41.37
there're right to
share what you believe
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and these right of
course today is very challenge,
00:11:43.22\00:11:45.65
because in many
countries, several more and more
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countries you
know, the government
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or the religious
institutions say--
00:11:49.97\00:11:51.76
Don't allow you to
change your identity.
00:11:51.77\00:11:52.99
No you have no right to change,
00:11:53.00\00:11:54.27
or you have no right
to share what you believe
00:11:54.28\00:11:57.65
in the public
setting you have to stay into
00:11:57.66\00:12:00.34
your private
church or private group.
00:12:00.35\00:12:02.53
Well even as you say
that a country that I haven't
00:12:02.54\00:12:04.31
spoken of on this
program for long time,
00:12:04.32\00:12:06.15
several years ago
you and I were in Laos.
00:12:06.16\00:12:08.78
Yeah. Cambodia and
there is a apparent freedom
00:12:08.79\00:12:10.97
of worship we went to
the, to the Adventist Church
00:12:10.98\00:12:13.78
and others, but on the Sabbath,
00:12:13.79\00:12:15.13
we've sympathy Sabbath we
went to the Adventist Church
00:12:15.14\00:12:17.63
and they worship like we
do anywhere in this country
00:12:17.64\00:12:19.95
or most western countries.
00:12:19.96\00:12:22.09
But we found out
that if you shared a Bible
00:12:22.10\00:12:25.24
track or Bible
witness out in the villages,
00:12:25.25\00:12:27.78
you'll almost
certainly be arrest--
00:12:27.79\00:12:29.23
That's illegal. Yeah.
And-- You can be arrested.
00:12:29.24\00:12:32.02
As much as 25 years in jail.
00:12:32.03\00:12:34.23
Yeah, O, yeah,
that's incredible,
00:12:34.24\00:12:35.73
there are many countries
like that around the world
00:12:35.74\00:12:37.92
and you know, which is important
00:12:37.93\00:12:39.21
is to have an official document.
00:12:39.22\00:12:41.71
It means when we are
defending religious freedom
00:12:41.72\00:12:44.47
the universal
declaration of human right,
00:12:44.48\00:12:46.70
but there are also
many over they're article.
00:12:46.71\00:12:49.15
Yeah. It's on the outside.
Let's talk about some of those
00:12:49.16\00:12:51.73
after the break. We need to take
00:12:51.74\00:12:52.99
a quick break and
we'll be right back.
00:12:53.00\00:12:54.68
One hundred years, a
long time to do anything,
00:13:03.19\00:13:07.02
much less publish a magazine,
but this year "Liberty,"
00:13:07.03\00:13:10.94
the Seventh-day Adventist
voice of religious freedom
00:13:10.95\00:13:13.59
celebrates 100 years of doing
what it does best, collecting,
00:13:13.60\00:13:17.98
analyzing, and reporting
00:13:17.99\00:13:19.84
the ebb and flow of religious
expression around the world.
00:13:19.85\00:13:23.16
Issue after
issue, Liberty has taken
00:13:23.17\00:13:26.13
on the tough assignments.
00:13:26.14\00:13:27.65
Tracking down threats to
religious freedom and exposing
00:13:27.66\00:13:30.31
the work of the devil in
every corner of the globe.
00:13:30.32\00:13:33.44
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:33.45\00:13:36.12
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom issues
00:13:36.13\00:13:38.83
sequestered within
the Church community
00:13:38.84\00:13:40.57
itself have been
clearly and honestly exposed.
00:13:40.58\00:13:44.03
Liberty exists for one purpose,
00:13:44.04\00:13:46.54
to help God's people maintain
that all important separation
00:13:46.55\00:13:50.35
of church and state
while recognizing the dangers
00:13:50.36\00:13:53.34
inherent in such a struggle.
00:13:53.35\00:13:55.61
During the past century,
00:13:55.62\00:13:56.92
Liberty has experienced
challenges of it's own,
00:13:56.93\00:13:59.32
but it remains on the job.
00:13:59.33\00:14:01.73
Thanks to the inspired
leadership of a long line
00:14:01.74\00:14:04.25
of dedicated Adventist
editors, three of whom represent
00:14:04.26\00:14:06.98
almost half of the
publications' existence
00:14:06.99\00:14:09.51
and the foresight of a
little woman from New England.
00:14:09.52\00:14:12.81
One hundred years of struggle,
100 years of victories,
00:14:12.82\00:14:17.16
religious freedom isn't
just about political machines
00:14:17.17\00:14:20.18
and cultural prejudices.
00:14:20.19\00:14:21.84
It's about people fighting
for the right to serve the God
00:14:21.85\00:14:25.97
they love as their hearts
and the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:25.98\00:14:29.84
Thanks to the
prayers and generous support
00:14:29.85\00:14:32.09
of Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere.
00:14:32.10\00:14:34.56
Liberty will continue
to accomplish its work
00:14:34.57\00:14:36.90
of providing timely information,
00:14:36.91\00:14:38.81
spirit filled inspiration,
and heaven sent encouragement
00:14:38.82\00:14:42.03
to all who long to live
and work in a world bound
00:14:42.04\00:14:46.37
together by the God ordained
bonds of religious freedom.
00:14:46.38\00:14:51.04
Welcome back to
The Liberty Insider,
00:15:00.78\00:15:02.65
before the break
with guest Dr. John Graz.
00:15:02.66\00:15:05.49
We were talking about something
00:15:05.50\00:15:07.40
that his as they say
his accent portrays him,
00:15:07.41\00:15:09.71
you are Swiss, aren't you?
00:15:09.72\00:15:11.83
Yeah. And, and that's
the layer of the Swiss--
00:15:11.84\00:15:14.42
I have two
passports Swiss and French.
00:15:14.43\00:15:16.71
Well, the Swiss
and the French language
00:15:16.72\00:15:18.79
that's the
language of diplomacy.
00:15:18.80\00:15:20.31
Yeah. And I know
you're very diplomatic.
00:15:20.32\00:15:23.17
I'll try. But
out of your office,
00:15:23.18\00:15:25.28
you have an
associate that work directly
00:15:25.29\00:15:27.41
with the United Nations--
00:15:27.42\00:15:28.65
The United Nations, I used
to do this work to it mean I--
00:15:28.66\00:15:31.14
Oh, I know you used to
work with them, of course.
00:15:31.15\00:15:32.52
Time to time I
go to Geneva and--
00:15:32.53\00:15:34.69
So Geneva and New York.
00:15:34.70\00:15:36.80
So we gotten to talking about
00:15:36.81\00:15:39.54
the Universal Declaration
of Religious Freedom.
00:15:39.55\00:15:42.33
Yeah, this is
what I said, Lincoln,
00:15:42.34\00:15:43.99
you know, when
you have this document
00:15:44.00\00:15:45.42
because you have the universal
00:15:45.43\00:15:46.90
which is really
the basic document.
00:15:46.91\00:15:48.93
We always talk about
00:15:48.94\00:15:50.12
the Universal
Declaration of Human Right
00:15:50.13\00:15:52.26
and you can say it you
know, when you are persecuting,
00:15:52.27\00:15:55.63
discriminating a
group, because he has,
00:15:55.64\00:15:58.34
or they have another religion,
00:15:58.35\00:16:00.52
it's a no position to
one of the foundation--
00:16:00.53\00:16:04.01
Absolutely. Of
the United Nation,
00:16:04.02\00:16:05.52
you are strong you know,
00:16:05.53\00:16:06.97
it means the
light is on your side.
00:16:06.98\00:16:09.97
Those who are not
following wind that
00:16:09.98\00:16:11.96
are on the other
side, on the wrong side.
00:16:11.97\00:16:14.44
Actually it seem lightly
countries that find himself
00:16:14.45\00:16:16.87
out of step with the
thinking of the United Nations,
00:16:16.88\00:16:20.06
I don't condemn
this, but they can even be
00:16:20.07\00:16:22.58
severe military
action the whole world's
00:16:22.59\00:16:24.31
gangs up on a country
that defies these new norms--
00:16:24.32\00:16:27.52
And it's so true that you know,
00:16:27.53\00:16:29.33
many countries
today are challenging
00:16:29.34\00:16:32.43
the concept of human rights
00:16:32.44\00:16:34.15
and the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights.
00:16:34.16\00:16:36.19
But they're using,
doing intellectually,
00:16:36.20\00:16:37.79
aren't they? It's
not the flow of history.
00:16:37.80\00:16:40.09
No, no, no but they do
that still and they would like
00:16:40.10\00:16:42.89
to change, because they say
that its a western philosophy,
00:16:42.90\00:16:45.99
it has nothing to do with us
because its a individual right,
00:16:46.00\00:16:49.76
it means we recognize
00:16:49.77\00:16:51.63
with the Universal
Declaration of Human Right
00:16:51.64\00:16:53.61
that every
individuals, everyone you know,
00:16:53.62\00:16:57.01
as I said its not
every family, or every tribe,
00:16:57.02\00:17:00.21
or every country, everyone.
00:17:00.22\00:17:02.47
It meant you have
the right as individual
00:17:02.48\00:17:05.44
to make your own
choice and that's make,
00:17:05.45\00:17:08.43
it makes a big problem in
many places around the world.
00:17:08.44\00:17:11.70
Absolutely.
Because people don't expect
00:17:11.71\00:17:13.32
that you change, you
have to follow the tradition.
00:17:13.33\00:17:15.32
And there are
challenges to this and we'd had
00:17:15.33\00:17:17.23
a program on it in the
past but if the United Nations
00:17:17.24\00:17:20.12
I think within the last
year there was an effort lead
00:17:20.13\00:17:22.45
by several less than
open in this religious sense
00:17:22.46\00:17:29.80
open states where
they wanted some sort
00:17:29.81\00:17:32.01
of United Nations declaration
against the deformation
00:17:32.02\00:17:35.39
of religion that
would serve to restrict
00:17:35.40\00:17:37.43
your religious statement-
00:17:37.44\00:17:38.66
Yeah, its still, still on
they would like to control
00:17:38.67\00:17:41.39
what you are saying
about any kind of religion,
00:17:41.40\00:17:44.28
it means you cannot speak
freely, openly about religion,
00:17:44.29\00:17:48.28
you have to follow some rules.
00:17:48.29\00:17:49.64
And that's really
against freedom of expression.
00:17:49.65\00:17:52.20
Absolutely. And when we
talk about religious freedom,
00:17:52.21\00:17:54.67
we talk about the
freedom of association.
00:17:54.68\00:17:57.43
There is no religious freedom,
00:17:57.44\00:17:59.50
there is no
freedom of association.
00:17:59.51\00:18:01.84
If there is no
religious freedom,
00:18:01.85\00:18:03.65
there is no
freedom of expression,
00:18:03.66\00:18:05.90
it means really it's a core--
00:18:05.91\00:18:07.34
Again, we can't
untangle these rights,
00:18:07.35\00:18:08.66
they're all sort of intermix.
00:18:08.67\00:18:09.80
Exactly, this is why
you know in, in commentary
00:18:09.81\00:18:12.84
of the universal
declaration and after in I know
00:18:12.85\00:18:16.34
there are treaty which is--
called international convenient
00:18:16.35\00:18:19.55
on political and
civil and political right
00:18:19.56\00:18:22.68
in the commentary it is
said that religious freedom
00:18:22.69\00:18:25.15
should not be changed
even in case of emergency.
00:18:25.16\00:18:28.89
It means its so
important religious freedom
00:18:28.90\00:18:31.55
that even if you have the
big crisis in the country,
00:18:31.56\00:18:35.06
you should not
change religious freedom.
00:18:35.07\00:18:37.31
That's, that's worth
reminding many civil government
00:18:37.32\00:18:39.60
even in the--
United States since 9/11.
00:18:39.61\00:18:41.46
I've seen a tendency
with the panic of the moment
00:18:41.47\00:18:44.77
to sort of set aside
some very real freedom.
00:18:44.78\00:18:47.39
And in the United States,
00:18:47.40\00:18:48.84
I've often as I
traveled around reminded
00:18:48.85\00:18:51.29
them that in the
civil war the Supreme Court
00:18:51.30\00:18:53.53
say something very similar in,
00:18:53.54\00:18:55.74
in a case of
detainment and the Supreme Court
00:18:55.75\00:19:00.53
got involved and
they said the constitution
00:19:00.54\00:19:02.49
has in itself everything
necessary to defend liberties
00:19:02.50\00:19:06.53
even in times of
stress and to take them away
00:19:06.54\00:19:09.88
at a time of stress they
say is to invite despotism.
00:19:09.89\00:19:12.68
Yeah. You know,
it's a clear cut.
00:19:12.69\00:19:15.35
Maybe people may
think that its you know,
00:19:15.36\00:19:18.19
its technical and sort but
not, you know, its our right.
00:19:18.20\00:19:22.01
Absolutely. Its
in the constitution,
00:19:22.02\00:19:24.77
its in the Universal
Declaration of Human Right,
00:19:24.78\00:19:27.64
it is in many
Treaties of the United Nation.
00:19:27.65\00:19:30.18
It means when you
are defending and asking
00:19:30.19\00:19:32.86
for religious freedom
you are on your right that,
00:19:32.87\00:19:36.63
that's makes a
lot of difference,
00:19:36.64\00:19:38.45
when we are visiting countries
where people are persecuted,
00:19:38.46\00:19:41.48
we are not the guilty
side, they are the guilty side.
00:19:41.49\00:19:44.42
Absolutely. And he makes,
you don't come just to say,
00:19:44.43\00:19:46.52
okay, please I beg you,
could you respect this right--
00:19:46.53\00:19:49.35
Right, honor it. You
say hey, you remember
00:19:49.36\00:19:51.78
if you sign the document--
00:19:51.79\00:19:53.03
How far as most
Christians feeling
00:19:53.04\00:19:54.19
we have the moral
arm of the universe,
00:19:54.20\00:20:00.41
Martin Luther King said on aside
00:20:00.42\00:20:02.23
but we have international law,
00:20:02.24\00:20:03.87
but at last night
I read through again
00:20:03.88\00:20:06.07
on the universal declaration
is something struck me,
00:20:06.08\00:20:08.14
I guess I knew it but to
see it written at in full,
00:20:08.15\00:20:10.93
and its a lot more than
article what 18, isn't it?
00:20:10.94\00:20:13.41
Yeah, 30 article I
guess. But its 18 is the--
00:20:13.42\00:20:17.50
It is the religious freedom.
00:20:17.51\00:20:19.07
Religious freedom, but
there are many of them,
00:20:19.08\00:20:20.33
but as I read through them.
00:20:20.34\00:20:21.98
To me its amazingly parallel
00:20:21.99\00:20:25.35
to the
Declaration of Independence
00:20:25.36\00:20:27.40
and the US Constitution
with its Bill of Rights
00:20:27.41\00:20:29.44
in particular, so you know,
those people take quick shots
00:20:29.45\00:20:33.79
at the UN has its
problems, but I think its ideal
00:20:33.80\00:20:37.15
that its adopted a
very high and loadable.
00:20:37.16\00:20:40.22
Yeah. And as long as
it can maintain this,
00:20:40.23\00:20:42.70
I think there is
some hope for mankind
00:20:42.71\00:20:44.49
and for the freedom of
religion and expression.
00:20:44.50\00:20:46.97
This is why you
know, when people say
00:20:46.98\00:20:48.89
that you that's a just a
way the western countries
00:20:48.90\00:20:51.75
are using to
interfere in other country,
00:20:51.76\00:20:55.02
that's not true
because it took 1000 years
00:20:55.03\00:20:57.66
in the western
country to get this right.
00:20:57.67\00:20:59.80
You know look at the Middle
Age or during the Roman time,
00:20:59.81\00:21:03.83
you did not have this right,
00:21:03.84\00:21:05.41
this kind of right
was not recognized.
00:21:05.42\00:21:07.74
It means people died for
this right and it took a long,
00:21:07.75\00:21:11.13
a long, a long
series of persecution,
00:21:11.14\00:21:14.35
battles to at the end
have this right and this right
00:21:14.36\00:21:18.28
is still very fragile,
it means if we say that,
00:21:18.29\00:21:21.70
oh, that's a natural,
one day we will loose,
00:21:21.71\00:21:24.58
one day we will
loose our freedom.
00:21:24.59\00:21:26.36
And if we do nothing to protect
00:21:26.40\00:21:29.19
and to defend our
religious freedom,
00:21:29.20\00:21:31.42
we in fact we don't
deserve to have freedom.
00:21:31.43\00:21:35.41
Well, I think it
was James Madison
00:21:35.42\00:21:37.37
said that its
right to take alarm
00:21:37.38\00:21:39.17
at the first in
position on our liberties,
00:21:39.18\00:21:42.92
so its not that the
first time something happens
00:21:42.93\00:21:45.23
that the full extent
of the problem is evident,
00:21:45.24\00:21:47.74
but to wait until
that's really happened,
00:21:47.75\00:21:51.18
its sometimes too late,
so we should be very jealous,
00:21:51.19\00:21:53.93
I think to
protect civil liberties
00:21:53.94\00:21:56.37
particularly religious liberty,
00:21:56.38\00:21:58.04
since it has a transcending
quality, doesn't it?
00:21:58.05\00:22:00.17
You're dealing with,
with, with universal absolutes
00:22:00.18\00:22:03.85
with divine imperatives.
00:22:03.86\00:22:06.09
Yeah, and, and when
you believe that you know,
00:22:06.10\00:22:08.12
you are the creator
of God, God created us--
00:22:08.13\00:22:10.97
A divine imperative.
00:22:10.98\00:22:12.14
Yeah, and the God
create us with the,
00:22:12.15\00:22:14.80
the faculty and to
choose His fabulous possibility
00:22:14.81\00:22:19.41
to decide according to
your conscience and it means
00:22:19.42\00:22:22.46
that's a gift from God
also for us as a believer.
00:22:22.47\00:22:25.90
We believe that
religious freedom
00:22:25.94\00:22:27.29
is not the just a
right, it's a far beyond that,
00:22:27.30\00:22:31.19
it's a gift from God.
00:22:31.20\00:22:32.51
Yeah, it's a good
time to bring up something
00:22:32.52\00:22:36.03
that used to
bemuse me, during the,
00:22:36.06\00:22:38.85
was it during the
Vietnam War, but its during the,
00:22:38.86\00:22:40.88
the Cold War, the Soviet Union
which was a humanistic state
00:22:40.89\00:22:46.69
that it denied the existence
of God in some formal way--
00:22:46.70\00:22:50.65
And in many ways
human rights too.
00:22:50.66\00:22:52.58
Yes, well, they didn't
practice them adequately.
00:22:52.59\00:22:54.88
But in, in some of
their tussles with the west,
00:22:54.89\00:22:57.33
iI remember several time I
was like, this is not right.
00:22:57.34\00:23:00.19
What did they told me about,
00:23:00.20\00:23:01.24
what was this moral
absolute that they're referring
00:23:01.25\00:23:03.40
to and I think as the
Bible says you know even though
00:23:03.41\00:23:06.72
people don't understand God,
they sort of innate awareness
00:23:06.73\00:23:10.45
of what is right and wrong
that they can inherit that,
00:23:10.46\00:23:13.09
that they know this
and, and, and before
00:23:13.10\00:23:16.27
when you're talking
about the foundation
00:23:16.28\00:23:17.52
of the United
Nations, people had died
00:23:17.53\00:23:19.61
to establish this
principles, they truly did.
00:23:19.62\00:23:22.73
But I think many
things on a global scale
00:23:22.74\00:23:25.22
have happened that
just an honest onlooker
00:23:25.23\00:23:27.62
is led to deduce that we
need to move this direction.
00:23:27.63\00:23:30.76
Yeah, I think--
It's just help, obvious.
00:23:30.77\00:23:33.32
Yeah, coming
back to United Nation
00:23:33.33\00:23:35.05
in the 1981 they
voted a declaration against
00:23:35.06\00:23:38.32
all kind of discrimination
on the religion and so on.
00:23:38.33\00:23:42.23
It became really very
important text for those
00:23:42.24\00:23:46.27
who are defending
religious freedom.
00:23:46.28\00:23:48.15
And from this
declaration of 1981 you know,
00:23:48.16\00:23:52.05
the people of the United Nation
00:23:52.06\00:23:54.29
has the right to send delegates
00:23:54.30\00:23:57.37
or there is a special Rawporter
00:23:57.38\00:23:59.19
at the United Nation
for religious freedom-
00:23:59.20\00:24:01.32
And I know you
worked very closely with--
00:24:01.33\00:24:02.98
And many years, he has
the right to visit countries
00:24:02.99\00:24:05.56
and they visit countries
and they visit countries
00:24:05.57\00:24:07.79
and they comeback
and they give a report,
00:24:07.80\00:24:09.63
and the report is presented
00:24:09.64\00:24:11.43
at the United Nation General
Assembly and several time,
00:24:11.44\00:24:15.93
because we had
a so good relation
00:24:15.94\00:24:17.58
with them several
time when Adventist
00:24:17.59\00:24:19.94
were persecuted in one country,
00:24:19.95\00:24:21.96
I know there it
was in the report
00:24:21.97\00:24:24.88
before the General Assembly.
00:24:24.89\00:24:26.80
And of course the
government reacted
00:24:26.81\00:24:28.65
and they wanted to know why
00:24:28.66\00:24:30.01
you are so small movement
00:24:30.02\00:24:32.28
and so it's how can you
do that, how is it possible,
00:24:32.29\00:24:36.17
now your name is
mention at the United Nations.
00:24:36.18\00:24:39.45
You have important friends.
Yeah, we have important friends.
00:24:39.46\00:24:42.00
Well, you remember when
you and I were in Indonesia
00:24:42.01\00:24:44.41
once we spoke to a
very successful businessman
00:24:44.42\00:24:47.05
who started off with very
little and he went to the,
00:24:47.06\00:24:50.39
to this company that
he wanted a huge loan
00:24:50.40\00:24:52.26
from in a business
agreement and he says,
00:24:52.27\00:24:54.26
the says my father is wealthy
and he wants me to do it.
00:24:54.27\00:24:58.73
Yeah, I remember that.
00:24:58.74\00:25:00.40
That was his father in heaven.
00:25:00.41\00:25:01.66
Who is your father? We
have important friends,
00:25:01.67\00:25:03.75
God is on our side and
it says if God be with us,
00:25:03.76\00:25:06.26
who can be
against us. And it doesn't
00:25:06.27\00:25:07.76
hurt to have the
special reporter.
00:25:07.77\00:25:09.72
Absolutely. And note
your case and pass it on-
00:25:09.73\00:25:11.79
And then they're very open,
I have to say that you know,
00:25:11.80\00:25:14.06
these people at the--
United Nation are very open,
00:25:14.07\00:25:17.34
you can meet them you know,
00:25:17.35\00:25:19.09
when you had all these
fighting a battle against
00:25:19.10\00:25:22.30
sect and cult in Europe,
those who are very open to us,
00:25:22.31\00:25:25.99
we have people at the
United Nation specially
00:25:26.00\00:25:28.46
this special reporter,
00:25:28.47\00:25:29.74
he understood and
he was very helpful.
00:25:29.77\00:25:31.81
It means we have to
work with them and of course
00:25:31.82\00:25:34.62
we cannot say that
everything is perfect,
00:25:34.63\00:25:37.44
there are many things
which are not perfect,
00:25:37.45\00:25:39.24
but you know, our
world is not perfect,
00:25:39.25\00:25:41.43
you have to take the opportunity
00:25:41.44\00:25:43.49
and to make friend were we are.
00:25:43.50\00:25:45.15
And these special
reporters, you know,
00:25:45.16\00:25:49.34
they're not
doing the easy thing.
00:25:49.35\00:25:51.03
At a recent even we heard
00:25:51.04\00:25:53.85
was Asma
Jahangir from Pakistan--
00:25:53.86\00:25:56.79
From Pakistan. In her
own country she is under
00:25:56.80\00:25:59.10
some personal threat
for what she said about--
00:25:59.11\00:26:01.99
You know,
several people, official,
00:26:02.00\00:26:03.35
minister of government and--
governor were assassinated.
00:26:03.36\00:26:06.23
Yeah. You know,
in the world of today
00:26:06.24\00:26:08.50
I think that it's
very important to know what
00:26:08.51\00:26:11.03
we are doing something like
defending religious freedom.
00:26:11.04\00:26:14.53
As a believer, as
Adventist, I'm defending
00:26:14.54\00:26:17.86
religious freedom
because it's a gift of God.
00:26:17.87\00:26:20.11
But I am very, very--
please and I should says
00:26:20.12\00:26:22.74
that its a blessing from God
to see that also other people
00:26:22.75\00:26:26.57
are defending these great
values and this gift from God
00:26:26.58\00:26:30.41
and the others people
you can find them almost
00:26:30.42\00:26:33.07
everywhere in the Government,
in international organization
00:26:33.08\00:26:37.58
and we can also find
them at the United Nation.
00:26:37.59\00:26:41.02
Those people who are supporting
00:26:41.03\00:26:42.62
and defending the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights.
00:26:42.63\00:26:46.66
Any talk of Universal Rights
00:26:48.27\00:26:50.15
really must be put in
the historical context,
00:26:50.16\00:26:53.16
for most of recorded history
rights were not easily granted,
00:26:53.17\00:26:58.52
they were kept to the--
King perhaps to his nobles,
00:26:58.53\00:27:01.00
perhaps to a few
powerful warlords,
00:27:01.01\00:27:03.85
rights were not
something that were easily given
00:27:03.86\00:27:06.46
or even recognized
does needing to be given
00:27:06.47\00:27:09.42
to the average worker itself
or unimportant individual.
00:27:09.43\00:27:14.81
Its really only
in the modern world
00:27:14.82\00:27:16.71
the modern era what I believe
00:27:16.72\00:27:18.93
the spread of spiritual
values that derive from God
00:27:18.94\00:27:22.28
given rights and
also an educate populous
00:27:22.29\00:27:25.86
that logically
and humanistically
00:27:25.87\00:27:28.50
look at the
dignity of a human being,
00:27:28.51\00:27:31.33
that universal application
those has become possible.
00:27:31.34\00:27:34.82
United Nations is a fallible
human instrument to be sure,
00:27:34.83\00:27:38.46
but its annunciated
very well and weighs
00:27:38.47\00:27:40.60
reminiscence of
the U.S. Constitution
00:27:40.61\00:27:43.07
and indeed reminiscent
of some of the principles
00:27:43.08\00:27:46.14
that have come
from our creative God.
00:27:46.15\00:27:48.19
Why all people
should have universal rights
00:27:48.20\00:27:50.77
in particular religious liberty
00:27:50.78\00:27:53.75
is a valuable and indispensable
and now internationally
00:27:53.76\00:27:58.19
advance principle
that we can support,
00:27:58.20\00:28:00.61
must support, and we'll support.
00:28:00.64\00:28:02.61
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:03.38\00:28:05.97