Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Jon Gratz
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000161
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00:22 Welcome to The Liberty Insider.
00:24 This is the program bringing you discussion, 00:27 news, views, and information on 00:29 religious liberty events around the world. 00:32 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine 00:35 and my guest on this program is Dr. John Graz. 00:39 Welcome John. Very pleased to be with you. 00:41 And, and you know, may you don't have enough time 00:43 on this program to list all your responsibilities 00:45 but you're, I think first and foremost 00:48 as the Seventh-day Adventist, I know you as the 00:50 Director of our Public Affairsof Religious Liberty 00:52 Department at Seventh-day Adventist church.. 00:54 At the general conference. At the world headquarters. 00:57 In Silver Spring, Maryland. Yeah. 01:00 I would like to talk on this program 01:02 about the biblical basis for religious liberty. 01:05 It's very easy in North America 01:07 particularly to any discussion 01:10 of religious liberty to devolve in the 01:11 constitution discussion separation of church 01:14 and state, first amendment 01:15 and so on, those are valid points. 01:18 But at the end of the day 01:19 I think as a Seventh-day Adventist Christian, 01:21 it has to be biblically based or-- 01:23 Yes, it was, it was. I should say that it was 01:25 from the beginning, you know, the first time 01:27 someone used the term, religious freedom, it was, 01:32 he was what is Tertullian at the beginning of 01:35 the history of the church. It means it came 01:37 from a Christian source and also all these 01:40 persecution around the world, you had Christian 01:43 defending religious freedom. That was a dream, 01:45 that was a vision of during the middle age 01:48 for those who were prosecuted. 01:50 And they did not make reference 01:53 to the philosophers of the 18th century but they 01:56 just went back to the Bible and it means you will find 01:59 in the Bibles the roots for defending and promoting 02:03 religious freedom still today. 02:05 I think there's great themes in the Bible and, and, and 02:08 one of the greatest that stands along side 02:10 any literary master piece when you study Exodus 02:14 particularly is the freedom from literal captivity 02:18 to a strange power, strange religion. Yeah. 02:21 Strange gods, people drawn out into the wilderness, 02:24 where God explains his ways for them and they, 02:27 they go up with their literal conflict 02:28 with other peoples and other religions. 02:31 But, but you know, we can't think from that it may 02:34 we can discuss through that we have any right to by 02:37 force to do away with other faiths. But the Bible is 02:40 telling the story of a struggle 02:42 to be spiritually free to be able to serve God. 02:45 Sure, and the only way you're when you think about 02:48 or talk about religious freedom, 02:49 you don't have to hide religious freedom. 02:52 You know, you have to compare 02:54 religious freedom and persecution 02:56 and when people disagree and they say, 02:58 religious freedom is not very important. 03:01 Just ask them the question what is the alternative, 03:05 what do you propose? 03:06 And in the history of the world 03:07 you have persecution after persecution. 03:11 It means it's at very difficult 03:13 for human being to accept that you could be different 03:17 if you are in majority, 03:19 you know, their natural tendency 03:21 or trans is to prosecute you or to eliminate you. 03:24 And religious freedom is the fact 03:26 that you recognize that the freedom of choice 03:29 is part of the human dignity. 03:33 I think one of the reasons religious liberty has become 03:38 most successful in many countries in our era 03:42 or the modern era, is that people have forgotten some 03:45 transcendent reference points that we now look at 03:48 civil society, we, we're more humanistically inclined. 03:52 But yeah we're not look back in history 03:54 when you had societies that they were worshiping a deity 03:57 that they believed. 03:59 You know, if they didn't appease their deity 04:00 their crops had failed and so on. 04:02 And then you have another religion comes in 04:04 and they have a competing deity that their whole 04:07 cosmology is an opposition to theirs. 04:09 You're not dealing with the different view point, 04:11 you're dealing with a very swept, 04:14 your view of how the entire universe operates. 04:17 And, and in the worse cases as you can see them 04:20 as the evil force that they're allied with an evil power. 04:23 Very hard to maintain an openness 04:26 to another person's practice when you've got that done. 04:28 And this is why when you go back to the gospel 04:31 especially the gospel you see 04:32 how Jesus respected the opinion of others 04:36 and the religion of others. 04:37 He never curse anyone to follow him 04:40 and there is a beautiful text 04:41 seen in the Luke Chapter 9. 04:43 You know where Jesus it was almost 04:46 at the end of his ministry and he wanted to cross 04:49 the territory of the Samaritan, 04:51 for the last time you know, he wanted to meet the Samaritan. 04:54 And you know that during this time 04:55 Jewisha and the-- Jews and Samaritan 04:57 were really opposed and-- But who were they? 05:00 We should explain, even Christians I don't think 05:03 are always very clear on who the Samaritans were. 05:06 The Samaritans were a kind of mixed people, 05:09 you know, when the, I think the Assyrian came. 05:12 They moved the population and they mixed the population. 05:14 And there were some Jews that stayed behind. 05:17 They joined with people of the surrounding area. 05:19 They didn't totally reject 05:22 worship of God but it was amalgamate. 05:24 They're just of the five books of the Pentateuch. 05:28 They had their own-- Their own religion. 05:30 Their own place. 05:32 But it paralleled in some 05:34 superficial ways the worship in Israel. 05:37 It means that they believed that they were 05:38 the real people of God too, 05:40 you know, because they were faithful to Moses and so on. 05:43 But I'm trying to bring out that it's roughly 05:45 analogues to splits within Christian, 05:47 where you have Mormonism right now in the US 05:51 and you know, I think Mormonism 05:53 has some serious biblical in-consistence, 05:55 it's inconsistent with the biblical account, 05:57 but they are-- A religion. 06:00 It's a legitimate religion 06:01 and it presents as another Christian faith. 06:03 But some Christians look at that oh they are not even, 06:05 that's what they said in the recent campaign. 06:08 Mitt Romney is Mormon, he's not even a real Christian, 06:11 we shouldn't allow such a person-- 06:12 Which is interesting is to see how would Jesus 06:14 will face the prejudice bias of his time. 06:17 You know and he wanted to ask two people, 06:20 two of his disciples to prepare a place. 06:23 It means you go to a village and you say, you know, 06:25 the master will come do you have a place for him. 06:28 And of course at this time you know, 06:30 hospitality was a sacred custom in middle east 06:34 and in many places. 06:36 You cannot say no when people ask, 06:38 you know, you say yes, but the Samaritan say, 06:40 where are you going to? 06:41 And the disciples say, oh, we are going to 06:44 Jerusalem for the feast for the festival. 06:47 And the Samaritan say, no, if you're going to 06:50 Jerusalem there is no place for you. 06:52 That was a discrimination too, you know, 06:54 they have also, they had also a lot of prejudice. 06:57 And the disciple come back 06:59 and give a report to Jesus and to the other disciples 07:03 and what happened. 07:04 You know, two of the disciple James and John say, 07:07 oh, we want to, we have to do something. 07:10 And this is what, I read the text you know. 07:12 "When the disciples James and John saw this, 07:17 they ask, Lord, do you want us to call fire down 07:22 from heaven to destroy them? 07:25 You can imagine, they wanted to justify 07:28 their hatred by God, you know, 07:30 we'll pray to destroy them not just to give them 07:34 a lesson but to destroy them. 07:37 But Jesus turned this is his reaction, 07:39 fabulous reaction, you know, he turned and rebuked them 07:43 and in some manuscripts it's return, you know, 07:46 and said, "you don't know what manner of spirit you are." 07:53 And they continue and I like, there was an evil spirit here. 07:57 Not the spirit of heaven. No. 07:58 And the story finished by this word, 08:02 and they went to another village 08:04 and I think that's just fabulous, 08:06 you know, he is the king, he is master, he receive, 08:10 he was humiliated by this people 08:13 but he respected their freedom. 08:14 Say okay, they don't want me, they don't want to receive me 08:17 that's not a problem but the other his disciple 08:20 wanted to kill them. 08:22 And this is the way Christian-- 08:24 Many Christians through the centuries have, 08:26 they just want to read those text 08:27 and had a similar reaction. 08:29 You know, fanaticism, 08:30 so religious fanaticism is just the opposed 08:33 of Jesus message and Jesus said, okay, you rebuke, 08:36 that's very interesting also 08:37 to say to read this word, rebuke. 08:39 It means, let no way to interpret 08:43 you know, may be, you may be 08:45 you should not be so strong, maybe half the way, 08:48 not just kill whole but destroy half of the village, 08:51 is just rebuke and he said, you are inspired by the devil. 08:56 Yeah, remember also 08:57 very well known parable of the man on the way to-- 09:04 the man who was waylaid by thieves 09:06 on the way to Jericho. Yeah. 09:07 And the Samaritan came and helped him. 09:10 So Jesus, was a great thing to say 09:12 that he had a very different religious 09:13 viewpoint, but you sure your agreement 09:18 with the Spirit of heaven 09:19 when you act charitably towards another person. 09:21 and there is several other, 09:22 you know, examples in the gospel. 09:26 When Jesus call His disciples, 09:28 He always ask them, do you want to come. 09:30 You know, He called them but he let them 09:32 the freedom to decide. 09:34 And when he met the young man, the rich young man, 09:37 you know, he called him like he called the other. 09:39 But the young man say, no and Jesus was sad. 09:43 But he did not force him. 09:45 You know, he did not say to him, 09:46 hey you have no choice, follow me. Well, even Judas. 09:49 He knew what was happening 09:50 but he did not force him, He did not force him. 09:52 And this is why you know 09:53 if we are disciple of Jesus we've really to 09:55 go back to the same Spirit and to respect. 09:59 You know, we are as a religion 10:00 we are not here to impose our will to people. 10:03 We are not here to have a power and to dominate. 10:07 It was a temptation for religion, 10:09 but we should very, be very careful, 10:12 that is a temptation and it's a devil temptation. 10:15 We're not here to build the kingdom of God 10:18 on Earth by forcing people to follow us. 10:22 Well, the kingdom is the key to this, I thought of this 10:24 the other day as I was, I was in a television studio. 10:27 Listening to our world president 10:29 of the Seventh-day Adventist church 10:31 giving a religious liberty sermon, 10:32 which will be broadcast on 3ABN 10:35 not too many weeks from this filming. 10:38 And he was using the example of Jesus before Pilate 10:41 and that's a very illuminating dialogue. 10:43 With Pilate, who knows where this information was from. 10:47 We know that his wife had a dream about 10:49 that he shouldn't punish this innocent man. 10:54 But Pilate says, you know, people say 10:56 you're the King of the Jews, are you the King of the Jews 10:58 and Jesus said, you know, do you think this or you 11:01 just repeating what other people say. 11:04 What he did was force Pilate to really seriously 11:07 think about it rather than just a cheap shot here, 11:09 you know, I'm King of the Jews 11:11 and then he gets into a dialogue with Jesus. 11:13 Where Jesus nicely upgrades him, He says, 11:16 My kingdom is not of this world 11:19 if it was My followers would fight for Me. 11:22 This is the keys-- Well, his followers 11:23 were not to fight for him. 11:24 Peter took up the sword and Jesus said, put it down 11:27 and I wrote somewhere recently, I said you know 11:30 the sword lay forgotten on the floor 11:32 of the garden of Gethsemane. 11:34 The sword was not to be used and today it's the same. 11:37 We're not in the business as Jesus was clearly 11:40 not forcing people, because the kingdom 11:43 that he was talking about-- It's not the same. 11:45 It's a spiritual kingdom now and it'll be literally 11:48 at one point, but it's not anything 11:50 to do with the civil part. 11:51 Yeah, and enforcing people, 11:53 what is the benefit to do that? 11:54 No benefit, and after you force people you reduce your, 11:58 their capacity to think, their freedom 12:01 and that's not the way we have. 12:03 You know, that's not the way Jesus proceed. 12:05 But he, what he brought is respect of people. 12:09 You know, we have to-- 12:10 they don't share the same vision. 12:12 Okay, but they have their right. 12:14 Of course, you have to say the truth, 12:16 you know, we believe that there is two way one leading 12:19 to death, one leading to life and we hope-- 12:21 there's consequences. Yeah, there are consequences. 12:23 But we hope that people will follow the right way 12:26 but we cannot force them. 12:28 And who knows, you know, those people 12:31 today who said no to Jesus 12:33 may be tomorrow or one day or another 12:35 will say yes, but if we respect them. 12:38 Yeah, there's not just one moment. 12:40 This is a great discussion and it's a good reminder 12:42 that while we talk about politics and current events 12:46 that the root religious liberty is spiritual, 12:48 it's biblically based. 12:50 We're dealing with spiritual absolutes. 12:51 We'll be back after a short break 12:53 to further this discussion. 13:03 One-hundred years, a long time to do anything, 13:07 much less publish a magazine, but this year, 13:10 Liberty, the Seventh-day Adventist voice 13:12 of Religious Freedom, celebrates one hundred years 13:15 of doing what it does best, collecting, analyzing, 13:19 and reporting the ebb and flow 13:21 of religious expression around the world. 13:23 Issue after issue, Liberty has taken on 13:26 the tough assignments, tracking down threats to 13:29 Religious Freedom and exposing the work of the devil 13:31 in every corner of the globe. 13:33 Governmental interference, personal attacks, 13:36 corporate assaults, even Religious Freedom issues 13:39 sequestered within the Church community 13:40 itself have been clearly and honestly exposed. 13:44 Liberty exists for one purpose to help God's people 13:48 maintain that all important separation of Church 13:51 and State, while recognizing the dangers 13:53 inherent in such a struggle. 13:55 During the past century, Liberty has experienced 13:58 challenges of its own, but it remains on the job. 14:01 Thanks to the inspired leadership of a long line 14:04 of dedicated Adventist Editors, three of whom 14:07 represent almost half of the publication's existence 14:09 and the foresight of a little woman 14:11 from New England. 14:13 One hundred years of struggle, 14:15 one hundred years of victories, 14:17 religious freedom isn't just about political machines 14:20 and cultural prejudices. 14:22 It's about people fighting for the right to serve 14:25 the God they love as their hearts 14:28 and the Holy Spirit dictate. 14:30 Thanks to the prayers and generous support 14:32 of Seventh-day Adventists everywhere. 14:34 Liberty will continue to accomplish its work 14:37 of providing timely information, 14:38 spirit filled inspiration, 14:40 and heaven sent encouragement to all who long to live 14:44 and work in a world bound together by the God 14:47 ordained bonds of religious freedom. 15:01 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider 15:02 Before the break with guest Dr. John Graz, 15:05 we were comforting ourselves by going through 15:08 the New Testament particularly at that point 15:12 and pulling some of examples that Jesus gave 15:14 of how we should relate to other people, 15:16 not compelling, talking about the-- 15:18 Yeah, Jesus never talk, never use you know, 15:20 the terms of religious freedom 15:22 but really he put that in practice. 15:25 But what he did over and over again was make 15:27 this distinction between the kingdom of man and 15:29 the civil governance and his kingdom 15:33 and how they, as he said, before Pilate, 15:35 it's not of this world. 15:36 My kingdom is not from this world. 15:38 They coexist but they not in direct conflict, 15:41 one will supersede the other. 15:43 And the temptation is always to build a kingdom of God 15:46 on earth and to persecute people 15:48 who don't want to follow you. 15:49 This is what we have to be very careful. 15:52 And remember, the greatest temptation that 15:54 came to Jesus was one of the greatest temptations 15:57 that Satan brought to him was to take him up 15:59 to this high place and say, 16:01 here all the kingdoms of the world, 16:03 I will give them to you if you worship me. 16:05 In other words, if you pay attention to civil, 16:07 secular power, and I think that directly relates to 16:11 the dangers of bringing church and state together. 16:15 It's true in the Old Testament, 16:18 with the theocratic system, there was an element of that. 16:21 But even in the theocratic system 16:23 remember Saul was upbraided severely 16:25 by Samuel for daring to take on the role of the priest. 16:29 He was the civil leader and Samuel and 16:32 the priest were administering-- 16:34 You know, because most of the time, you know, 16:36 people of power use religion 16:39 for their own benefits and it's so easy. 16:42 And also people of religion, religious people, 16:44 not religious but people of religion 16:46 can use the power for their own benefit too. 16:49 And we should not be too much naive about that, 16:51 because Jesus knew really the real human nature 16:55 and said, that's not the way. 16:56 You know, if you're working on Earth 16:59 to get more power it will not be 17:01 for the power, for the kingdom of God. 17:03 Don't try to mix things. 17:04 And, and as you say that I'm thinking here in the US, 17:07 we're in the beginning of, 17:09 I think it could gonna be a drawn out election season 17:12 for the presidential office of the president, 17:15 and we're in the Republican eliminations at the moment. 17:18 But as I remember, I think three of them 17:20 has stated publicly that they felt 17:23 that was a direct call from God, 17:25 that God wants them to be president. 17:27 It can't to true in three cases 17:29 and even if it was claimed in only one, 17:32 as you say, that God's not really 17:34 in the business of calling people 17:36 for that civil leadership. 17:39 I mean he uses people, 17:40 but he calls us to spiritual dedication 17:42 whether it's be president, whether it's to be a pastor, 17:45 whether it's to be a carpenter-- 17:47 Which is a problem for me, you know. 17:49 If you say, God called me first, 17:51 what does it mean, you have to explain. 17:52 Did you have a vision, did you have, 17:54 did you hear voices, or is it just an impression? 17:58 Yeah, of course God can call people to have responsibility. 18:02 But always, you know, there are two things 18:04 that God ask you if he call you. 18:05 First you have to obey him, 18:07 you have to obey his laws, his commandments. 18:09 It's not, it's not just called you to be the big boss, 18:13 but he call you to do something 18:15 to do a mission, a special mission. 18:17 And secondly, you have to be humble enough 18:19 to say that, I'm not the best one in the world 18:22 to do the job. 18:23 Which is not what people are trying, 18:24 what they are trying when you have election, 18:27 they just sell themselves. Yes. 18:28 They say, yeah I'm the best one. 18:29 The contradiction to the-- 18:30 Can you imagine Jesus or the disciple of Jesus 18:34 saying, hey, look, I'm the best among the 12, 18:37 when they did that-- Well, we know that. 18:38 Yeah, we know that. Who will be greatest? 18:40 who is sitting right or left side. 18:42 And Jesus says, you don't know 18:43 what you're asking, exactly. 18:45 To be the, to the forefront of what's coming my way, 18:48 it's the way of suffering and of persecution 18:51 and so on, not sitting on a hot seat-- 18:55 You know, Daniel did not want to be 18:56 the first prime minister of this time. 18:59 Joseph did not want it too but God chose them. 19:03 That was very different. 19:04 And I think it's very significant that Moses, 19:10 one of the great leaders in the Bible, 19:11 I mean, and the author of many of the books-- 19:13 He did not want to go to Egypt. 19:15 No, and he says he was the least humble of men. 19:18 Yeah, he was and he knew that he was not the man. 19:20 He had the feeling 19:21 that he could not do anything without God. 19:24 It was not the one who say, hey, look I am the stronger, 19:26 I am the best. 19:29 But that's the way 19:30 and I think we should not be, we should be-- 19:32 It's the battle of human nature, 19:34 with what God is calling for, the heavenly nature. 19:36 But there is yet another text in the Bible. 19:39 You know, can I interject one too. 19:42 I constantly use when I'm preaching 19:44 on religious liberty a statement by Paul. 19:46 He says that, he even calls it, 19:48 the gospel of liberty. The gospel of liberty, yeah. 19:51 And so it isn't just that the gospel from Jesus 19:55 speaks about liberty, as well as other things. 19:57 It is the gospel of liberty 19:59 and the real point of religious liberty 20:01 is liberation from sin. Absolutely. 20:03 And sometimes we forget that thing. Exactly-- 20:05 And once, as, since we're liberated from sin, 20:08 then we can follow through and make consistent with that 20:12 how we relate to civil powers, 20:14 how we relate to people who would force us 20:16 to practice some other faith but we're already liberated. 20:19 That's the true liberation 20:20 and that's just how we follow through on that. 20:22 And you know, sometime, 20:23 of course we forget how the world 20:25 at the time of Jesus was. 20:27 You know, people were very superstitious. 20:30 And even though Romans 20:31 who dominate the world at this time, 20:33 they were very superstitious. 20:34 You know, sometimes they declare that 20:36 the day will be half, because they saw the birds 20:38 and saw--and Jesus really brought freedom 20:42 about superstition. 20:44 You know, that was an incredible freedom. 20:47 You are no longer under the power of the spirit 20:50 and so on, you know, I won, I give you freedom. 20:54 You know, it change us, 20:55 it changed totally the way of thinking people-- 20:56 Well, Jesus says that the son of, 20:58 the son of man sets you free, 20:59 you will be free indeed. Exactly. 21:01 It's really an emphasis, 21:02 you're free it's not just saying you're free, 21:05 but truly you'll be free of this. 21:07 And in giving of, you know, 21:09 the gospel and giving of our faith in Jesus, 21:12 we will go back just. 21:13 The world is going back to superstition. 21:16 We believe that we are free, 21:17 but without God we cannot be free, 21:19 means we will go back to more and more superstition 21:22 and the world will be become again a place 21:24 where people are superstitious. 21:26 They will not do that because they saw that. 21:28 They will not do that because 21:29 the number is not a good number 21:30 and after you spend all your time, 21:32 you know, saying that what about the fly, 21:35 fly over the birds, what about the numbers 21:37 and so on, what about the day? 21:39 What we do every time you pick up an-- 21:41 if I pick up a newspaper I get reminder that 21:43 superstition is lies like well, most newspapers, 21:46 the horoscope is there. Horoscope, yeah. 21:48 A lot of people guide their lives by it, 21:50 President Reagan towards the end, 21:52 his wife Nancy they were consulting astrologers 21:56 and new age prognosticators. 22:01 And on one level we could laugh at it, 22:02 but you're right. 22:03 Human beings easily drift in that direction. Easily. 22:06 And the liberation that Jesus was bringing was free 22:09 from this pseudo spirituality. 22:12 And you know, in a very, very secular city in Europe. 22:15 You would be surprised to see that 22:17 people coming from all over the world, 22:19 all other place on the earth. 22:21 You know, they come with a very like witchcraft 22:24 and so on and they sell their service 22:27 for thousand and thousand dollars 22:29 and people buy and people 22:31 and they become rich in a very secular world. 22:35 You know, all city. 22:36 You know there is a text 22:37 which is also interesting to mention 22:40 when Jesus, you know, said to his disciple. 22:43 They believe that He wanted to be a King, 22:45 Kingdom of man, and He said, no, I am here, 22:50 I am the bread of life. 22:51 It means, I am here to bring you eternal life. 22:54 I am not here to build any kind of kingdom 22:58 but I want to save you eternal life 23:01 and I am, you know, the bread. 23:03 If you eat this bread, you will be saved. 23:05 And people say, what is He talking about. 23:07 We are not interested about this thing. 23:10 We are interested about how to be independent, 23:14 how to be a master in our country. 23:16 How to build a strong Israel, 23:18 and He said that's not my mission. 23:20 And they left one after the other. 23:22 They said that we cannot understand, 23:24 this guy is crazy. 23:25 And what the Jesus do towards his disciples 23:29 and he look at his disciple and at this time 23:32 you know, don't remember, don't forget-- 23:33 It was almost was near, will you leave too? 23:36 And he look at his disciple here and he was weak, 23:40 it was on in matter of a success. 23:43 It was a really very, very bad time for him. 23:46 Because he saw his disciple. 23:48 He needed to have disciple to follow him 23:51 and to preach the gospel, 23:52 but he saw his disciple leaving and what did he do. 23:55 He looked at his 12 and he said, 23:57 what about you? 23:59 And you can imagine in the extreme weakness, 24:02 he left his disciple free to decide. 24:05 Now if you compare with Caesar, 24:07 or Alexander or others, 24:09 when they had to face the situation 24:11 they give order to his people-- 24:13 Alexander killed the people that were trying to leave-- 24:15 They killed. They killed them. 24:16 You don't want to follow me, I'll kill you. 24:19 Jesus, what did you say, are you afraid, 24:21 what do you want to do? 24:23 What do you want to leave, you too. 24:26 That's just fabulous, instead to force people-- 24:29 Who else will we follow. There's no one like you-- 24:32 and at this time you have this beautiful answer of Peter. 24:34 You know, you are, you are the son of God, yeah. 24:36 Even as you're talking about that incident, 24:40 it seems to me when Jesus said, 24:42 I am the bread, 24:43 bread of life, bread of heaven. 24:45 It had to be illusion to the manna 24:47 that came down in the Old Testament. 24:49 And that manna was a conundrum 24:50 to the children of Israel, 24:52 because they were used to making bread, 24:54 solid stuff, here there was gossamer stuff in the morning, 24:58 they could gather up it would sustain them, 24:59 but they couldn't keep it. Next day it was turned sour. 25:03 And they didn't really know what it was. 25:05 I think what Jesus was saying, yes, I will sustain you, 25:08 but it's something divine I'm not just normal bread. 25:11 You know, if you take off the gospel 25:13 from the context of freedom, 25:14 you just, you cannot understand. 25:16 You can imagine having no religious freedom what will, 25:19 what does it mean? 25:20 It means that one day, the people will decide 25:22 what kind of book you have to read. 25:24 That won't be the Bible, 25:25 but they will write another Bible for you 25:27 that you need to read it-- 25:29 we're running out of time but in Luke Chapter 4, 25:31 Jesus got up there, from the Old Testament, 25:33 said that he'd come to bring release to the captive 25:36 to set at liberty those who are oppressed. 25:38 Yes, and Lincoln, you cannot really read 25:41 and understand the gospel without the context of freedom 25:44 and of course, religious freedom. 25:46 Absolutely, and I love the way 25:47 that Jesus integrated the Old Testament and the New. 25:50 It's not a new story. 25:51 It's the continuing story of Liberty. 25:53 Yes, and I think that, you know, 25:55 we have to understand that 25:56 if you don't have religious freedom 25:58 you cannot preach, you cannot share, 26:00 share the gospel, the good hope of Jesus. 26:03 This is why when I am defending religious freedom, 26:06 meeting people, you know, people from government, 26:10 organizing meeting, and so on. 26:12 I'm always going back to the gospel. 26:14 I receive, you know, so much encouragement 26:17 from the gospel and from Jesus. 26:19 He was and he's still the example, 26:21 how we can live with each other, 26:23 without respecting them. 26:25 Without understanding that everyone has been created 26:29 with the right not only the right, 26:31 with the capacity to take their own decision. 26:34 And of course, when you have the freedom 26:37 you have the responsibility to choose. 26:39 But Jesus said to us that, you know, I love you, 26:43 I want you to follow me but you're free to decide. 26:49 It's impossible to examine the life 26:51 and ministry of Jesus Christ without coming 26:54 at some understanding of religious freedom. 26:57 When Jesus stood up at Nazareth 26:59 and proclaimed using the Old Testament passages 27:02 from Isaiah that he had come to liberate people, 27:05 to set the captives at Liberty. 27:08 He was talking of course about the liberation from sin, 27:11 but it was taken by his hearers 27:12 as something radical and revolutionary. 27:17 Jesus says, "you shall know the truth 27:19 and the truth will set you free." 27:22 There's no question that Jesus was all about setting free. 27:26 He was not about compulsion. 27:29 In the Qur'an, you can read there, 27:31 the prophet rather uncharacteristically, 27:33 I think, says, no compulsion in religion. 27:36 But Jesus very characteristically 27:38 in all of his proclamations explained the kingdom 27:42 as something that was offered freely. 27:44 It was not compelled to anyone. 27:47 It was offered on the highways 27:48 and the byways but something that was so precious 27:51 that people should even give up 27:53 their whole earthly life to gain. 27:56 That is ultimate freedom. Freedom of the spirit. 27:59 Freedom brought by the bringer 28:01 of good things from heaven. 28:04 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17