Welcome to The Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
bringing you discussion,
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news, views, and information on
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religious liberty
events around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest on this
program is Dr. John Graz.
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Welcome John. Very
pleased to be with you.
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And, and you know, may
you don't have enough time
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on this program to list
all your responsibilities
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but you're, I
think first and foremost
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as the Seventh-day
Adventist, I know you as the
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Director of our Public
Affairsof Religious Liberty
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Department at
Seventh-day Adventist church..
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At the general conference.
At the world headquarters.
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In Silver
Spring, Maryland. Yeah.
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I would like to
talk on this program
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about the biblical
basis for religious liberty.
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It's very easy in North America
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particularly to any discussion
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of religious
liberty to devolve in the
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constitution
discussion separation of church
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and state, first amendment
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and so on, those
are valid points.
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But at the end of the day
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I think as a
Seventh-day Adventist Christian,
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it has to be
biblically based or--
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Yes, it was, it was.
I should say that it was
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from the beginning,
you know, the first time
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someone used the term,
religious freedom, it was,
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he was what is
Tertullian at the beginning of
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the history of the
church. It means it came
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from a Christian
source and also all these
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persecution around the
world, you had Christian
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defending religious
freedom. That was a dream,
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that was a vision of
during the middle age
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for those who were prosecuted.
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And they did not make reference
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to the philosophers of
the 18th century but they
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just went back to the
Bible and it means you will find
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in the Bibles the roots
for defending and promoting
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religious freedom still today.
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I think there's great themes
in the Bible and, and, and
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one of the greatest
that stands along side
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any literary master
piece when you study Exodus
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particularly is the
freedom from literal captivity
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to a strange power,
strange religion. Yeah.
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Strange gods, people
drawn out into the wilderness,
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where God explains his
ways for them and they,
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they go up with
their literal conflict
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with other peoples
and other religions.
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But, but you know, we
can't think from that it may
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we can discuss through
that we have any right to by
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force to do away with
other faiths. But the Bible is
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telling the story of a struggle
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to be spiritually free
to be able to serve God.
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Sure, and the only way
you're when you think about
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or talk about religious freedom,
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you don't have to
hide religious freedom.
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You know, you have to compare
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religious
freedom and persecution
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and when people
disagree and they say,
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religious freedom
is not very important.
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Just ask them the question
what is the alternative,
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what do you propose?
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And in the history of the world
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you have
persecution after persecution.
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It means it's at very difficult
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for human being to accept
that you could be different
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if you are in majority,
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you know, their natural tendency
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or trans is to prosecute
you or to eliminate you.
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And religious
freedom is the fact
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that you recognize
that the freedom of choice
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is part of the human dignity.
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I think one of the reasons
religious liberty has become
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most successful in
many countries in our era
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or the modern era, is
that people have forgotten some
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transcendent reference
points that we now look at
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civil society, we, we're
more humanistically inclined.
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But yeah we're not
look back in history
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when you had societies that
they were worshiping a deity
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that they believed.
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You know, if they
didn't appease their deity
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their crops had
failed and so on.
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And then you have
another religion comes in
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and they have a
competing deity that their whole
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cosmology is an
opposition to theirs.
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You're not dealing with
the different view point,
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you're dealing
with a very swept,
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your view of how the
entire universe operates.
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And, and in the worse
cases as you can see them
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as the evil force that they're
allied with an evil power.
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Very hard to
maintain an openness
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to another person's practice
when you've got that done.
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And this is why when
you go back to the gospel
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especially the gospel you see
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how Jesus respected
the opinion of others
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and the religion of others.
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He never curse
anyone to follow him
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and there is a beautiful text
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seen in the Luke Chapter 9.
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You know where
Jesus it was almost
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at the end of his
ministry and he wanted to cross
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the territory of the Samaritan,
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for the last time you know,
he wanted to meet the Samaritan.
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And you know
that during this time
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Jewisha and the--
Jews and Samaritan
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were really opposed
and-- But who were they?
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We should explain, even
Christians I don't think
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are always very clear
on who the Samaritans were.
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The Samaritans were
a kind of mixed people,
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you know, when the, I
think the Assyrian came.
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They moved the population
and they mixed the population.
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And there were some
Jews that stayed behind.
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They joined with people
of the surrounding area.
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They didn't totally reject
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worship of God
but it was amalgamate.
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They're just of the
five books of the Pentateuch.
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They had their
own-- Their own religion.
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Their own place.
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But it paralleled in some
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superficial ways
the worship in Israel.
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It means that they
believed that they were
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the real people of God too,
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you know, because they were
faithful to Moses and so on.
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But I'm trying to
bring out that it's roughly
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analogues to
splits within Christian,
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where you have
Mormonism right now in the US
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and you know, I think Mormonism
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has some serious
biblical in-consistence,
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it's inconsistent
with the biblical account,
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but they are-- A religion.
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It's a legitimate religion
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and it presents as
another Christian faith.
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But some Christians look
at that oh they are not even,
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that's what they said
in the recent campaign.
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Mitt Romney is Mormon,
he's not even a real Christian,
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we shouldn't
allow such a person--
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Which is interesting
is to see how would Jesus
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will face the
prejudice bias of his time.
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You know and he
wanted to ask two people,
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two of his
disciples to prepare a place.
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It means you go to a
village and you say, you know,
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the master will come do
you have a place for him.
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And of course at
this time you know,
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hospitality was a
sacred custom in middle east
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and in many places.
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You cannot say
no when people ask,
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you know, you say
yes, but the Samaritan say,
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where are you going to?
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And the disciples
say, oh, we are going to
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Jerusalem for the
feast for the festival.
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And the Samaritan
say, no, if you're going to
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Jerusalem there
is no place for you.
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That was a
discrimination too, you know,
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they have also, they
had also a lot of prejudice.
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And the disciple come back
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and give a report to
Jesus and to the other disciples
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and what happened.
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You know, two of the
disciple James and John say,
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oh, we want to, we
have to do something.
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And this is what, I
read the text you know.
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"When the disciples
James and John saw this,
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they ask, Lord, do you
want us to call fire down
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from heaven to destroy them?
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You can imagine,
they wanted to justify
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their hatred by God, you know,
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we'll pray to destroy
them not just to give them
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a lesson but to destroy them.
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But Jesus turned
this is his reaction,
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fabulous reaction, you
know, he turned and rebuked them
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and in some manuscripts
it's return, you know,
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and said, "you don't know
what manner of spirit you are."
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And they continue and I like,
there was an evil spirit here.
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Not the spirit of heaven. No.
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And the story
finished by this word,
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and they went to another village
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and I think
that's just fabulous,
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you know, he is the
king, he is master, he receive,
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he was humiliated by this people
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but he respected their freedom.
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Say okay, they don't want me,
they don't want to receive me
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that's not a problem
but the other his disciple
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wanted to kill them.
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And this is the way Christian--
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Many Christians
through the centuries have,
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they just want
to read those text
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and had a similar reaction.
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You know, fanaticism,
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so religious
fanaticism is just the opposed
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of Jesus message and
Jesus said, okay, you rebuke,
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that's very interesting also
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to say to read
this word, rebuke.
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It means, let
no way to interpret
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you know, may be, you may be
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you should not be so
strong, maybe half the way,
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not just kill whole but
destroy half of the village,
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is just rebuke and he said,
you are inspired by the devil.
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Yeah, remember also
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very well known parable
of the man on the way to--
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the man who was
waylaid by thieves
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on the way to Jericho. Yeah.
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And the Samaritan
came and helped him.
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So Jesus, was a
great thing to say
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that he had a very
different religious
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viewpoint, but you
sure your agreement
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with the Spirit of heaven
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when you act charitably
towards another person.
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and there is several other,
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you know,
examples in the gospel.
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When Jesus call His disciples,
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He always ask them,
do you want to come.
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You know, He called
them but he let them
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the freedom to decide.
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And when he met the
young man, the rich young man,
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you know, he called him
like he called the other.
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But the young man
say, no and Jesus was sad.
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But he did not force him.
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You know, he did not say to him,
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hey you have no choice,
follow me. Well, even Judas.
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He knew what was happening
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but he did not force
him, He did not force him.
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And this is why you know
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if we are disciple
of Jesus we've really to
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go back to the same
Spirit and to respect.
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You know, we are as a religion
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we are not here to
impose our will to people.
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We are not here to have
a power and to dominate.
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It was a
temptation for religion,
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but we should
very, be very careful,
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that is a temptation
and it's a devil temptation.
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We're not here to
build the kingdom of God
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on Earth by forcing
people to follow us.
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Well, the kingdom is the
key to this, I thought of this
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the other day as I was, I
was in a television studio.
00:10:24.44\00:10:27.46
Listening to our world president
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of the
Seventh-day Adventist church
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giving a
religious liberty sermon,
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which will be broadcast on 3ABN
00:10:32.62\00:10:35.35
not too many
weeks from this filming.
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And he was using the
example of Jesus before Pilate
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and that's a very
illuminating dialogue.
00:10:41.56\00:10:43.89
With Pilate, who knows
where this information was from.
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We know that his
wife had a dream about
00:10:47.46\00:10:49.19
that he shouldn't
punish this innocent man.
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But Pilate says,
you know, people say
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you're the King of the Jews,
are you the King of the Jews
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and Jesus said, you
know, do you think this or you
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just repeating
what other people say.
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What he did was force
Pilate to really seriously
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think about it rather
than just a cheap shot here,
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you know, I'm King of the Jews
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and then he gets into
a dialogue with Jesus.
00:11:11.18\00:11:13.35
Where Jesus nicely
upgrades him, He says,
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My kingdom is not of this world
00:11:16.87\00:11:19.30
if it was My
followers would fight for Me.
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This is the keys--
Well, his followers
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were not to fight for him.
00:11:23.63\00:11:24.96
Peter took up the sword
and Jesus said, put it down
00:11:24.97\00:11:27.37
and I wrote somewhere
recently, I said you know
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the sword lay
forgotten on the floor
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of the garden of Gethsemane.
00:11:32.90\00:11:34.38
The sword was not to be
used and today it's the same.
00:11:34.39\00:11:37.30
We're not in the
business as Jesus was clearly
00:11:37.31\00:11:40.24
not forcing
people, because the kingdom
00:11:40.25\00:11:43.70
that he was talking
about-- It's not the same.
00:11:43.71\00:11:45.77
It's a spiritual kingdom
now and it'll be literally
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at one point,
but it's not anything
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to do with the civil part.
00:11:50.44\00:11:51.82
Yeah, and enforcing people,
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what is the benefit to do that?
00:11:53.18\00:11:54.70
No benefit, and after you
force people you reduce your,
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their capacity to
think, their freedom
00:11:58.75\00:12:01.77
and that's not the way we have.
00:12:01.78\00:12:03.40
You know, that's not
the way Jesus proceed.
00:12:03.41\00:12:05.73
But he, what he
brought is respect of people.
00:12:05.74\00:12:09.51
You know, we have to--
00:12:09.52\00:12:10.82
they don't
share the same vision.
00:12:10.83\00:12:12.35
Okay, but they have their right.
00:12:12.36\00:12:14.04
Of course, you
have to say the truth,
00:12:14.05\00:12:16.08
you know, we believe that
there is two way one leading
00:12:16.09\00:12:19.29
to death, one
leading to life and we hope--
00:12:19.30\00:12:21.92
there's consequences.
Yeah, there are consequences.
00:12:21.93\00:12:23.35
But we hope that people
will follow the right way
00:12:23.36\00:12:26.68
but we cannot force them.
00:12:26.69\00:12:28.61
And who knows,
you know, those people
00:12:28.62\00:12:31.16
today who said no to Jesus
00:12:31.17\00:12:32.99
may be tomorrow
or one day or another
00:12:33.00\00:12:35.45
will say yes, but
if we respect them.
00:12:35.46\00:12:38.21
Yeah, there's
not just one moment.
00:12:38.22\00:12:40.30
This is a great discussion
and it's a good reminder
00:12:40.31\00:12:42.88
that while we talk about
politics and current events
00:12:42.89\00:12:46.15
that the root
religious liberty is spiritual,
00:12:46.16\00:12:48.81
it's biblically based.
00:12:48.82\00:12:50.35
We're dealing with
spiritual absolutes.
00:12:50.36\00:12:51.92
We'll be back
after a short break
00:12:51.93\00:12:53.20
to further this discussion.
00:12:53.21\00:12:54.65
One-hundred years, a
long time to do anything,
00:13:03.42\00:13:07.09
much less publish a
magazine, but this year,
00:13:07.10\00:13:10.36
Liberty, the
Seventh-day Adventist voice
00:13:10.37\00:13:12.74
of Religious Freedom,
celebrates one hundred years
00:13:12.75\00:13:15.73
of doing what it does
best, collecting, analyzing,
00:13:15.74\00:13:19.35
and reporting the ebb and flow
00:13:19.36\00:13:21.19
of religious
expression around the world.
00:13:21.20\00:13:23.71
Issue after issue,
Liberty has taken on
00:13:23.72\00:13:26.57
the tough assignments,
tracking down threats to
00:13:26.58\00:13:29.16
Religious Freedom and
exposing the work of the devil
00:13:29.17\00:13:31.51
in every corner of the globe.
00:13:31.52\00:13:33.65
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:33.66\00:13:36.35
corporate assaults,
even Religious Freedom issues
00:13:36.36\00:13:39.28
sequestered within
the Church community
00:13:39.29\00:13:40.84
itself have been
clearly and honestly exposed.
00:13:40.85\00:13:44.50
Liberty exists for one
purpose to help God's people
00:13:44.51\00:13:48.18
maintain that all
important separation of Church
00:13:48.19\00:13:51.07
and State, while
recognizing the dangers
00:13:51.08\00:13:53.63
inherent in such a struggle.
00:13:53.64\00:13:55.90
During the past
century, Liberty has experienced
00:13:55.91\00:13:58.48
challenges of its own,
but it remains on the job.
00:13:58.49\00:14:01.58
Thanks to the inspired
leadership of a long line
00:14:01.59\00:14:04.77
of dedicated
Adventist Editors, three of whom
00:14:04.78\00:14:07.07
represent almost half of
the publication's existence
00:14:07.08\00:14:09.76
and the
foresight of a little woman
00:14:09.77\00:14:11.60
from New England.
00:14:11.61\00:14:13.06
One hundred years of struggle,
00:14:13.07\00:14:15.15
one hundred years of victories,
00:14:15.16\00:14:17.43
religious freedom isn't
just about political machines
00:14:17.44\00:14:20.37
and cultural prejudices.
00:14:20.38\00:14:22.10
It's about people
fighting for the right to serve
00:14:22.11\00:14:25.64
the God they
love as their hearts
00:14:25.65\00:14:28.01
and the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:28.02\00:14:30.35
Thanks to the
prayers and generous support
00:14:30.36\00:14:32.44
of Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere.
00:14:32.45\00:14:34.78
Liberty will continue
to accomplish its work
00:14:34.79\00:14:37.15
of providing timely information,
00:14:37.16\00:14:38.92
spirit filled inspiration,
00:14:38.93\00:14:40.50
and heaven sent encouragement
to all who long to live
00:14:40.51\00:14:44.44
and work in a world
bound together by the God
00:14:44.45\00:14:47.87
ordained bonds of
religious freedom.
00:14:47.88\00:14:51.13
Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider
00:15:01.39\00:15:02.95
Before the break
with guest Dr. John Graz,
00:15:02.96\00:15:05.41
we were comforting
ourselves by going through
00:15:05.42\00:15:08.40
the New Testament
particularly at that point
00:15:08.41\00:15:12.12
and pulling some of
examples that Jesus gave
00:15:12.13\00:15:14.66
of how we should
relate to other people,
00:15:14.67\00:15:16.29
not compelling,
talking about the--
00:15:16.30\00:15:17.98
Yeah, Jesus never
talk, never use you know,
00:15:17.99\00:15:20.77
the terms of religious freedom
00:15:20.78\00:15:22.67
but really he
put that in practice.
00:15:22.68\00:15:25.15
But what he did over
and over again was make
00:15:25.16\00:15:27.35
this distinction
between the kingdom of man and
00:15:27.36\00:15:29.71
the civil
governance and his kingdom
00:15:29.72\00:15:33.07
and how they, as he
said, before Pilate,
00:15:33.08\00:15:35.82
it's not of this world.
00:15:35.83\00:15:36.90
My kingdom is
not from this world.
00:15:36.91\00:15:38.29
They coexist but they
not in direct conflict,
00:15:38.30\00:15:41.70
one will supersede the other.
00:15:41.71\00:15:43.38
And the temptation is
always to build a kingdom of God
00:15:43.39\00:15:46.59
on earth and to persecute people
00:15:46.60\00:15:48.34
who don't want to follow you.
00:15:48.35\00:15:49.74
This is what we
have to be very careful.
00:15:49.75\00:15:52.16
And remember, the
greatest temptation that
00:15:52.17\00:15:54.06
came to Jesus was one
of the greatest temptations
00:15:54.07\00:15:57.76
that Satan brought to
him was to take him up
00:15:57.77\00:15:59.75
to this high place and say,
00:15:59.76\00:16:01.37
here all the
kingdoms of the world,
00:16:01.38\00:16:03.09
I will give them to
you if you worship me.
00:16:03.10\00:16:05.01
In other words, if you
pay attention to civil,
00:16:05.02\00:16:07.84
secular power, and I
think that directly relates to
00:16:07.85\00:16:11.18
the dangers of bringing
church and state together.
00:16:11.19\00:16:15.60
It's true in the Old Testament,
00:16:15.61\00:16:18.07
with the theocratic system,
there was an element of that.
00:16:18.08\00:16:21.04
But even in the
theocratic system
00:16:21.05\00:16:22.97
remember Saul was
upbraided severely
00:16:22.98\00:16:25.37
by Samuel for daring to
take on the role of the priest.
00:16:25.38\00:16:29.80
He was the civil
leader and Samuel and
00:16:29.81\00:16:32.34
the priest were administering--
00:16:32.35\00:16:34.18
You know, because
most of the time, you know,
00:16:34.19\00:16:36.45
people of power use religion
00:16:36.46\00:16:39.03
for their own
benefits and it's so easy.
00:16:39.04\00:16:42.21
And also people of
religion, religious people,
00:16:42.22\00:16:44.90
not religious but
people of religion
00:16:44.91\00:16:46.39
can use the power for
their own benefit too.
00:16:46.40\00:16:49.21
And we should not be
too much naive about that,
00:16:49.22\00:16:51.72
because Jesus knew
really the real human nature
00:16:51.76\00:16:55.23
and said, that's not the way.
00:16:55.24\00:16:56.85
You know, if
you're working on Earth
00:16:56.86\00:16:59.11
to get more power it will not be
00:16:59.12\00:17:01.87
for the power, for
the kingdom of God.
00:17:01.88\00:17:03.56
Don't try to mix things.
00:17:03.57\00:17:04.91
And, and as you say that
I'm thinking here in the US,
00:17:04.92\00:17:07.27
we're in the beginning of,
00:17:07.28\00:17:09.10
I think it could gonna be
a drawn out election season
00:17:09.11\00:17:12.11
for the presidential
office of the president,
00:17:12.12\00:17:15.23
and we're in the Republican
eliminations at the moment.
00:17:15.24\00:17:18.14
But as I remember,
I think three of them
00:17:18.15\00:17:20.78
has stated
publicly that they felt
00:17:20.79\00:17:23.86
that was a direct call from God,
00:17:23.87\00:17:25.40
that God wants
them to be president.
00:17:25.41\00:17:27.64
It can't to true in three cases
00:17:27.65\00:17:29.37
and even if it was
claimed in only one,
00:17:29.38\00:17:32.52
as you say,
that God's not really
00:17:32.53\00:17:34.44
in the business
of calling people
00:17:34.45\00:17:36.88
for that civil leadership.
00:17:36.89\00:17:39.33
I mean he uses people,
00:17:39.34\00:17:40.37
but he calls us to
spiritual dedication
00:17:40.38\00:17:42.83
whether it's be president,
whether it's to be a pastor,
00:17:42.84\00:17:45.03
whether it's to be a carpenter--
00:17:45.04\00:17:47.26
Which is a
problem for me, you know.
00:17:47.27\00:17:49.19
If you say, God called me first,
00:17:49.20\00:17:50.97
what does it mean,
you have to explain.
00:17:50.98\00:17:52.58
Did you have a
vision, did you have,
00:17:52.59\00:17:54.70
did you hear voices, or
is it just an impression?
00:17:54.71\00:17:58.56
Yeah, of course God can call
people to have responsibility.
00:17:58.57\00:18:02.31
But always, you
know, there are two things
00:18:02.32\00:18:04.02
that God ask you if he call you.
00:18:04.03\00:18:05.76
First you have to obey him,
00:18:05.77\00:18:07.40
you have to obey his
laws, his commandments.
00:18:07.41\00:18:09.81
It's not, it's not just
called you to be the big boss,
00:18:09.82\00:18:13.19
but he call you to do something
00:18:13.20\00:18:15.16
to do a mission,
a special mission.
00:18:15.17\00:18:17.41
And secondly, you
have to be humble enough
00:18:17.42\00:18:19.75
to say that, I'm not
the best one in the world
00:18:19.76\00:18:22.19
to do the job.
00:18:22.20\00:18:23.19
Which is not what
people are trying,
00:18:23.20\00:18:24.85
what they are trying
when you have election,
00:18:24.86\00:18:27.16
they just sell themselves. Yes.
00:18:27.17\00:18:28.66
They say, yeah I'm the best one.
00:18:28.67\00:18:29.82
The contradiction to the--
00:18:29.83\00:18:30.82
Can you imagine Jesus
or the disciple of Jesus
00:18:30.83\00:18:34.13
saying, hey, look,
I'm the best among the 12,
00:18:34.14\00:18:37.25
when they did
that-- Well, we know that.
00:18:37.26\00:18:38.62
Yeah, we know that.
Who will be greatest?
00:18:38.63\00:18:40.42
who is sitting
right or left side.
00:18:40.43\00:18:42.46
And Jesus says, you don't know
00:18:42.47\00:18:43.81
what you're asking, exactly.
00:18:43.82\00:18:45.01
To be the, to the forefront
of what's coming my way,
00:18:45.02\00:18:48.07
it's the way of
suffering and of persecution
00:18:48.08\00:18:51.51
and so on, not
sitting on a hot seat--
00:18:51.52\00:18:55.03
You know, Daniel
did not want to be
00:18:55.04\00:18:56.54
the first prime
minister of this time.
00:18:56.55\00:18:59.80
Joseph did not want it
too but God chose them.
00:18:59.81\00:19:03.29
That was very different.
00:19:03.30\00:19:04.81
And I think it's very
significant that Moses,
00:19:04.82\00:19:10.03
one of the great
leaders in the Bible,
00:19:10.04\00:19:11.67
I mean, and the
author of many of the books--
00:19:11.68\00:19:13.82
He did not want to go to Egypt.
00:19:13.83\00:19:15.77
No, and he says he was
the least humble of men.
00:19:15.78\00:19:18.09
Yeah, he was and he
knew that he was not the man.
00:19:18.10\00:19:20.75
He had the feeling
00:19:20.76\00:19:21.85
that he could not do
anything without God.
00:19:21.86\00:19:23.99
It was not the one who say,
hey, look I am the stronger,
00:19:24.00\00:19:26.92
I am the best.
00:19:26.93\00:19:29.17
But that's the way
00:19:29.18\00:19:30.29
and I think we should
not be, we should be--
00:19:30.30\00:19:32.82
It's the battle of human nature,
00:19:32.83\00:19:34.39
with what God is calling
for, the heavenly nature.
00:19:34.40\00:19:36.81
But there is yet
another text in the Bible.
00:19:36.82\00:19:39.37
You know, can I
interject one too.
00:19:39.38\00:19:42.63
I constantly use
when I'm preaching
00:19:42.64\00:19:44.35
on religious
liberty a statement by Paul.
00:19:44.36\00:19:46.84
He says that, he even calls it,
00:19:46.85\00:19:48.53
the gospel of liberty.
The gospel of liberty, yeah.
00:19:48.54\00:19:51.48
And so it isn't just
that the gospel from Jesus
00:19:51.49\00:19:55.02
speaks about liberty,
as well as other things.
00:19:55.03\00:19:57.58
It is the gospel of liberty
00:19:57.59\00:19:59.36
and the real point
of religious liberty
00:19:59.37\00:20:01.13
is liberation
from sin. Absolutely.
00:20:01.14\00:20:03.40
And sometimes we
forget that thing. Exactly--
00:20:03.41\00:20:05.94
And once, as, since
we're liberated from sin,
00:20:05.95\00:20:08.69
then we can follow through
and make consistent with that
00:20:08.70\00:20:12.41
how we relate to civil powers,
00:20:12.42\00:20:13.99
how we relate to
people who would force us
00:20:14.00\00:20:16.55
to practice some other faith
but we're already liberated.
00:20:16.56\00:20:19.51
That's the true liberation
00:20:19.52\00:20:20.77
and that's just how we
follow through on that.
00:20:20.78\00:20:22.46
And you know, sometime,
00:20:22.47\00:20:23.47
of course we
forget how the world
00:20:23.48\00:20:25.54
at the time of Jesus was.
00:20:25.55\00:20:27.54
You know, people
were very superstitious.
00:20:27.55\00:20:30.30
And even though Romans
00:20:30.31\00:20:31.31
who dominate the
world at this time,
00:20:31.32\00:20:32.99
they were very superstitious.
00:20:33.00\00:20:34.39
You know,
sometimes they declare that
00:20:34.40\00:20:36.21
the day will be half,
because they saw the birds
00:20:36.22\00:20:38.48
and saw--and Jesus
really brought freedom
00:20:38.49\00:20:42.64
about superstition.
00:20:42.65\00:20:44.13
You know, that was
an incredible freedom.
00:20:44.14\00:20:47.21
You are no longer
under the power of the spirit
00:20:47.22\00:20:50.36
and so on, you know, I
won, I give you freedom.
00:20:50.37\00:20:54.30
You know, it change us,
00:20:54.31\00:20:55.44
it changed totally the
way of thinking people--
00:20:55.45\00:20:56.55
Well, Jesus
says that the son of,
00:20:56.56\00:20:58.00
the son of man sets you free,
00:20:58.01\00:20:59.36
you will be
free indeed. Exactly.
00:20:59.37\00:21:01.35
It's really an emphasis,
00:21:01.36\00:21:02.89
you're free it's not
just saying you're free,
00:21:02.90\00:21:05.69
but truly
you'll be free of this.
00:21:05.70\00:21:07.54
And in giving of, you know,
00:21:07.55\00:21:08.98
the gospel and giving
of our faith in Jesus,
00:21:08.99\00:21:12.21
we will go back just.
00:21:12.22\00:21:13.59
The world is going
back to superstition.
00:21:13.60\00:21:16.22
We believe that we are free,
00:21:16.23\00:21:17.58
but without God
we cannot be free,
00:21:17.59\00:21:19.69
means we will go back to
more and more superstition
00:21:19.70\00:21:22.37
and the world will
be become again a place
00:21:22.38\00:21:24.72
where people are superstitious.
00:21:24.73\00:21:26.19
They will not do that
because they saw that.
00:21:26.20\00:21:28.10
They will not do that because
00:21:28.11\00:21:29.10
the number is not a good number
00:21:29.11\00:21:30.80
and after you
spend all your time,
00:21:30.81\00:21:32.50
you know, saying
that what about the fly,
00:21:32.51\00:21:35.04
fly over the birds,
what about the numbers
00:21:35.05\00:21:37.51
and so on, what about the day?
00:21:37.52\00:21:39.51
What we do every
time you pick up an--
00:21:39.52\00:21:41.11
if I pick up a
newspaper I get reminder that
00:21:41.12\00:21:43.01
superstition is lies
like well, most newspapers,
00:21:43.02\00:21:46.23
the horoscope is
there. Horoscope, yeah.
00:21:46.24\00:21:48.92
A lot of people
guide their lives by it,
00:21:48.93\00:21:50.64
President
Reagan towards the end,
00:21:50.65\00:21:52.93
his wife Nancy they
were consulting astrologers
00:21:52.94\00:21:56.32
and new age prognosticators.
00:21:56.33\00:22:01.13
And on one level
we could laugh at it,
00:22:01.14\00:22:02.51
but you're right.
00:22:02.52\00:22:03.51
Human beings easily drift
in that direction. Easily.
00:22:03.52\00:22:06.29
And the liberation that
Jesus was bringing was free
00:22:06.30\00:22:09.74
from this pseudo spirituality.
00:22:09.75\00:22:12.71
And you know, in a very,
very secular city in Europe.
00:22:12.72\00:22:15.88
You would be
surprised to see that
00:22:15.89\00:22:17.66
people coming from
all over the world,
00:22:17.67\00:22:19.82
all other place on the earth.
00:22:19.83\00:22:21.90
You know, they come
with a very like witchcraft
00:22:21.91\00:22:24.89
and so on and
they sell their service
00:22:24.90\00:22:27.51
for thousand
and thousand dollars
00:22:27.52\00:22:29.88
and people buy and people
00:22:29.89\00:22:31.64
and they become rich
in a very secular world.
00:22:31.65\00:22:35.07
You know, all city.
00:22:35.08\00:22:36.26
You know there is a text
00:22:36.27\00:22:37.26
which is also
interesting to mention
00:22:37.27\00:22:40.04
when Jesus, you
know, said to his disciple.
00:22:40.05\00:22:43.08
They believe that
He wanted to be a King,
00:22:43.09\00:22:45.33
Kingdom of man, and
He said, no, I am here,
00:22:45.34\00:22:50.26
I am the bread of life.
00:22:50.27\00:22:51.91
It means, I am here to
bring you eternal life.
00:22:51.92\00:22:54.79
I am not here to
build any kind of kingdom
00:22:54.80\00:22:58.74
but I want to
save you eternal life
00:22:58.75\00:23:01.75
and I am, you know, the bread.
00:23:01.76\00:23:03.66
If you eat this
bread, you will be saved.
00:23:03.67\00:23:05.55
And people say,
what is He talking about.
00:23:05.56\00:23:07.72
We are not
interested about this thing.
00:23:07.73\00:23:10.29
We are interested
about how to be independent,
00:23:10.30\00:23:14.09
how to be a
master in our country.
00:23:14.10\00:23:16.32
How to build a strong Israel,
00:23:16.33\00:23:18.72
and He said
that's not my mission.
00:23:18.73\00:23:20.58
And they left
one after the other.
00:23:20.59\00:23:22.51
They said that we
cannot understand,
00:23:22.52\00:23:24.38
this guy is crazy.
00:23:24.39\00:23:25.88
And what the Jesus
do towards his disciples
00:23:25.89\00:23:29.33
and he look at his
disciple and at this time
00:23:29.34\00:23:32.09
you know, don't
remember, don't forget--
00:23:32.10\00:23:33.09
It was almost was
near, will you leave too?
00:23:33.10\00:23:36.80
And he look at his
disciple here and he was weak,
00:23:36.81\00:23:40.39
it was on in
matter of a success.
00:23:40.40\00:23:43.06
It was a really very,
very bad time for him.
00:23:43.07\00:23:46.22
Because he saw his disciple.
00:23:46.23\00:23:48.09
He needed to have
disciple to follow him
00:23:48.10\00:23:51.16
and to preach the gospel,
00:23:51.17\00:23:52.69
but he saw his disciple
leaving and what did he do.
00:23:52.70\00:23:55.60
He looked at his 12 and he said,
00:23:55.61\00:23:57.64
what about you?
00:23:57.65\00:23:59.05
And you can imagine
in the extreme weakness,
00:23:59.06\00:24:02.56
he left his
disciple free to decide.
00:24:02.57\00:24:05.61
Now if you compare with Caesar,
00:24:05.62\00:24:07.65
or Alexander or others,
00:24:07.66\00:24:09.31
when they had to
face the situation
00:24:09.32\00:24:11.77
they give order to his people--
00:24:11.78\00:24:13.69
Alexander killed the people
that were trying to leave--
00:24:13.70\00:24:15.09
They killed. They killed them.
00:24:15.10\00:24:16.78
You don't want to
follow me, I'll kill you.
00:24:16.79\00:24:19.61
Jesus, what did you
say, are you afraid,
00:24:19.62\00:24:21.73
what do you want to do?
00:24:21.74\00:24:23.73
What do you want
to leave, you too.
00:24:23.74\00:24:26.27
That's just fabulous,
instead to force people--
00:24:26.28\00:24:29.72
Who else will we follow.
There's no one like you--
00:24:29.73\00:24:32.00
and at this time you have
this beautiful answer of Peter.
00:24:32.01\00:24:34.68
You know, you are, you
are the son of God, yeah.
00:24:34.69\00:24:36.80
Even as you're
talking about that incident,
00:24:36.81\00:24:40.63
it seems to me when Jesus said,
00:24:40.64\00:24:42.33
I am the bread,
00:24:42.34\00:24:43.36
bread of life, bread of heaven.
00:24:43.37\00:24:45.01
It had to be
illusion to the manna
00:24:45.02\00:24:47.24
that came down in
the Old Testament.
00:24:47.25\00:24:49.43
And that manna was a conundrum
00:24:49.44\00:24:50.84
to the children of Israel,
00:24:50.85\00:24:52.22
because they were
used to making bread,
00:24:52.23\00:24:54.58
solid stuff, here there was
gossamer stuff in the morning,
00:24:54.59\00:24:58.05
they could gather up
it would sustain them,
00:24:58.06\00:24:59.74
but they couldn't keep it.
Next day it was turned sour.
00:24:59.75\00:25:02.98
And they didn't
really know what it was.
00:25:02.99\00:25:05.86
I think what Jesus was
saying, yes, I will sustain you,
00:25:05.87\00:25:08.30
but it's something divine
I'm not just normal bread.
00:25:08.31\00:25:11.13
You know, if you
take off the gospel
00:25:11.14\00:25:13.25
from the context of freedom,
00:25:13.26\00:25:14.87
you just, you cannot understand.
00:25:14.88\00:25:16.71
You can imagine having no
religious freedom what will,
00:25:16.72\00:25:19.45
what does it mean?
00:25:19.46\00:25:20.45
It means that one
day, the people will decide
00:25:20.46\00:25:22.71
what kind of
book you have to read.
00:25:22.72\00:25:24.70
That won't be the Bible,
00:25:24.71\00:25:25.78
but they will write
another Bible for you
00:25:25.79\00:25:27.86
that you need to read it--
00:25:27.87\00:25:29.14
we're running out of
time but in Luke Chapter 4,
00:25:29.15\00:25:31.61
Jesus got up there,
from the Old Testament,
00:25:31.62\00:25:33.75
said that he'd come to
bring release to the captive
00:25:33.76\00:25:36.37
to set at liberty
those who are oppressed.
00:25:36.38\00:25:38.93
Yes, and Lincoln,
you cannot really read
00:25:38.94\00:25:41.36
and understand the gospel
without the context of freedom
00:25:41.37\00:25:44.89
and of course,
religious freedom.
00:25:44.90\00:25:46.41
Absolutely, and I love the way
00:25:46.42\00:25:47.65
that Jesus integrated the
Old Testament and the New.
00:25:47.66\00:25:50.20
It's not a new story.
00:25:50.21\00:25:51.33
It's the
continuing story of Liberty.
00:25:51.34\00:25:53.65
Yes, and I think that, you know,
00:25:53.66\00:25:55.13
we have to understand that
00:25:55.14\00:25:56.39
if you don't
have religious freedom
00:25:56.40\00:25:58.08
you cannot
preach, you cannot share,
00:25:58.09\00:26:00.18
share the gospel,
the good hope of Jesus.
00:26:00.19\00:26:03.95
This is why when I am
defending religious freedom,
00:26:03.96\00:26:06.81
meeting people, you
know, people from government,
00:26:06.82\00:26:10.01
organizing meeting, and so on.
00:26:10.02\00:26:12.07
I'm always going
back to the gospel.
00:26:12.08\00:26:14.28
I receive, you know,
so much encouragement
00:26:14.29\00:26:17.20
from the gospel and from Jesus.
00:26:17.21\00:26:19.26
He was and he's
still the example,
00:26:19.27\00:26:21.71
how we can live with each other,
00:26:21.72\00:26:23.67
without respecting them.
00:26:23.68\00:26:25.51
Without understanding
that everyone has been created
00:26:25.52\00:26:29.88
with the right
not only the right,
00:26:29.89\00:26:31.59
with the capacity to
take their own decision.
00:26:31.60\00:26:34.29
And of course, when
you have the freedom
00:26:34.30\00:26:37.00
you have the
responsibility to choose.
00:26:37.01\00:26:39.81
But Jesus said to us
that, you know, I love you,
00:26:39.82\00:26:43.23
I want you to follow me
but you're free to decide.
00:26:43.24\00:26:47.59
It's impossible
to examine the life
00:26:49.14\00:26:51.49
and ministry of
Jesus Christ without coming
00:26:51.50\00:26:54.46
at some understanding
of religious freedom.
00:26:54.47\00:26:57.53
When Jesus stood up at Nazareth
00:26:57.54\00:26:59.48
and proclaimed using
the Old Testament passages
00:26:59.49\00:27:02.35
from Isaiah that he had
come to liberate people,
00:27:02.36\00:27:05.84
to set the captives at Liberty.
00:27:05.85\00:27:08.42
He was talking of course
about the liberation from sin,
00:27:08.43\00:27:11.16
but it was taken by his hearers
00:27:11.17\00:27:12.91
as something
radical and revolutionary.
00:27:12.92\00:27:17.66
Jesus says, "you
shall know the truth
00:27:17.67\00:27:19.77
and the truth
will set you free."
00:27:19.78\00:27:22.32
There's no question that Jesus
was all about setting free.
00:27:22.33\00:27:26.73
He was not about compulsion.
00:27:26.74\00:27:29.43
In the Qur'an,
you can read there,
00:27:29.44\00:27:31.25
the prophet rather
uncharacteristically,
00:27:31.26\00:27:33.44
I think, says, no
compulsion in religion.
00:27:33.45\00:27:36.59
But Jesus very
characteristically
00:27:36.60\00:27:38.93
in all of his proclamations
explained the kingdom
00:27:38.94\00:27:42.51
as something that
was offered freely.
00:27:42.52\00:27:44.95
It was not compelled to anyone.
00:27:44.96\00:27:47.40
It was offered on the highways
00:27:47.41\00:27:48.63
and the byways but
something that was so precious
00:27:48.64\00:27:51.93
that people should even give up
00:27:51.94\00:27:53.24
their whole
earthly life to gain.
00:27:53.25\00:27:56.24
That is ultimate
freedom. Freedom of the spirit.
00:27:56.25\00:27:59.46
Freedom brought by the bringer
00:27:59.47\00:28:01.43
of good things from heaven.
00:28:01.44\00:28:04.07
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:04.08\00:28:07.08