Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Jon Gratz
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000160
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider. This is a program bringing you
00:26 up-to-date news, views and discussion on religious liberty 00:29 events, not only in the U.S. but around the world. My name is 00:33 Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty magazine and my guest on this 00:38 program is Dr. John Graz. You've got several hats, John. Yeah. 00:42 The one that I want to emphasize here today on this program is 00:46 that you are the director for the Seventh-day Adventist Church 00:50 of the Public Affairs and Religious Liberty Department at 00:54 our world headquarters. As such you and I work very closely 00:57 together; our offices are not far apart. But that said, I 01:01 don't see you that much. You're traveling an awful lot. Yes. 01:05 What are some of the things you are doing as you travel the 01:08 world. Well I am Secretary General of the International 01:12 Religious Liberty Association, which has been chartered in 01:17 1893. You know sometime we talk about the tradition about 01:21 religious freedom. The Adventist Church has a very strong 01:25 tradition from the beginning of the church. They were very 01:29 sensitive about the issue of religious freedom and they were 01:32 always on the side of defending and promoting religious freedom, 01:36 not just for them, but as a principle and for all people. 01:41 That's very interesting. And they started to have an 01:44 association which will give them the possibility to include 01:48 people from other beliefs or faiths, keeping focused on the 01:52 same principle, this very strong principle of religious freedom 01:56 for all as a principle and working with other people 02:00 Absolutely. The IRLA is not exclusively Adventist. We've 02:04 taken a lead in establishing it but most of the major office 02:09 holders are not Seventh-day Adventists. 02:11 Yeah, several of them and especially among our team of 02:13 experts. We have, you know, a board of experts. Fortunately 02:17 probably the best experts in the world are members of the team of 02:22 experts and in this team of experts the majority is not 02:25 Adventist but they really share our vision about religious 02:29 freedom. Freedom for all, you know, the freedom to choose your 02:34 faith, to have or not to have a faith and that's very important. 02:38 It has to be of course according to your own conscience. That's a 02:42 a strong principle and we have been very strong as a church and 02:47 I think that now many churches recognize that the Adventist 02:51 church is one of the leaders. But it's going to change because 02:55 now you know more and more the Catholic church is very involved 02:58 in defending religious freedom because of problems in the 03:02 middle east. When you have members in every part of the 03:06 world: Middle east or China who are persecuted, of course, 03:10 you want to defend religious freedom. 03:12 Now why do you think though, I've never discussed this on 03:15 this program, what was the dynamic that really directed 03:18 Adventists outward so quickly with the IRLA. You know, I have 03:23 often said, and I think on this program in other sessions, that 03:27 when there were only about 25,000 Seventh-day Adventists 03:30 in the United States, which was their limit at that point, 03:33 nearly a thousand of them had run afoul of blue laws with 03:37 fines some imprisoned and some even on chain gangs, 03:39 because of their particular problems. 03:42 You would think that they would be 03:43 incredibly focused on their own religious liberty problems 03:46 rather than efforts to defend others. 03:48 No because they saw the principle for all. The freedom 03:51 to choose your religion is for all. You cannot really believe 03:56 in a God who loves people and at the same time coerce people, 04:00 force people. It means, you know, religion has to be and 04:05 to stay a matter of choice. You have to choose. You choose 04:08 according to your conscience. And as you say, you know, the 04:12 religious freedom in the center of the 19th century of among 04:15 Adventists was very strong. We were just a small group of 04:19 people, but you know they collected more than 250,000 04:23 signatures against the blue laws and they have at this time a 04:27 magazine published every two weeks. We are still back 04:34 comparing to them in the 19th century. At the end of the 19th 04:38 century, beginning of the 20th century the Adventists were 04:42 very, very strong in defending and promoting religious freedom. 04:46 In fact, one of the major forces at that time. In fact, most of 04:49 the other religious forces to do with church/state issues, they 04:52 we're going the wrong direction weren't they? They were anxious 04:54 to use the power of law to uphold their Christian faith, 04:58 which is a bad dynamic when you're talking about universal 05:01 religious freedom. 05:02 Yeah, of course we can say it's because we were a minority. 05:05 That's true, but you know it's more than that. It's because 05:08 we believe in the principle of free choice. 05:10 What I was thinking when I even asked the question was I think 05:13 it's an outgrowth of the eschatology of Seventh-day 05:16 Adventists that believe that at some point at the very end of 05:19 time there will be a universal attempt to compel people to a 05:23 certain form of worship and they even believe that the United 05:27 States will be part of that, in fact, play a leading role so 05:31 from the get go Seventh-day Adventists saw all people being 05:35 involved, not just their little group. 05:37 This is what in our point of view there is a very strong 05:41 prophetic dimension in defense and promotion of religious 05:45 freedom. Why? Because we believe that will be the last battle. 05:50 It means we cannot say now we are at rest; we don't need to 05:54 defend religious freedom any more because we have freedom 05:57 in many countries. We believe it will be an issue until the last 06:02 day and that will be the last battle between God and the 06:05 opposing and the enemy of God who are not for religious 06:09 freedom. You know the beast, the false prophet, the dragon, what 06:14 are they doing? Yeah, Yeah, they persecute people. What are they 06:18 all doing? They persecute people They force people. In a position 06:22 the people of God respect freedom of conscience. 06:24 Yeah, and you well know traveling the world, while there 06:27 are many positive signs and some significant portions of the 06:31 world have adequate religious freedoms under existing law, 06:34 many, many countries have problems. Was it the Pew 06:40 Foundation, I think, recently did a survey; 70% of the world's 06:44 population lives in countries where there are severe 06:47 restrictions. 06:48 Severe restrictions and there are eleven countries in the 06:51 world where according to their constitution, to their law, if 06:55 you change your religion you will be executed. About 50 06:59 countries in the world, if you change you religion you may have 07:03 a serious problem. You may be arrested or you may be killed 07:07 by your family. You will be persecuted for sure. We receive 07:11 letters, testimonies, of people who became Christian or changed 07:16 their religion and they say that they had been rejected from 07:20 their family. They had a lot of problem. When they are a woman 07:25 they lose their children and so on. That's terrible. And we 07:29 cannot just say oh that's going on; well that's not our problem. 07:33 Part of the dynamic that I've learned firsthand in dealing 07:37 with religious liberty is that when you look at one of these 07:41 countries that may restrict all but state religion or a 07:45 generally accepted societal or cultural religion, it's not 07:49 enough to even get freedom for your church, or Adventists, or 07:53 some missionary be free to operate unless all religions 07:56 and all religious practices are accepted. That really is 08:00 selective persecution. That's not much better. 08:02 Yeah sometimes they are laws like now in Hungary. You can 08:04 imagine. In Hungary the Seventh- day Adventist church has been 08:07 recognized for more than one century, even during the 08:11 communists they recognized our church. Now they passed a new 08:15 law where the church is not recognized. Only 14 churches 08:19 and religious groups are recognized. But they say okay, 08:22 probably in the next round you will be recognized. Probably. 08:27 Probably. But we are against this law even if we were 08:32 recognized because we are defending the principle of 08:36 religious freedom for all and we don't believe in discrimination. 08:40 Registration is a subtle way to discriminate and keep religions 08:44 on the margins, isn't it? Because you can have maybe 10 08:46 religions that the state accepts but everybody else is out of 08:48 luck. When we discuss with people from 08:52 the government and they say, there is no problem. Being 08:54 recognized we'll not give anything more except probably 08:57 some money. But if you are not you will be still able to have 09:02 your worship and even to build a big church where you want, 09:07 but you know in practice it doesn't work like that. 09:10 At the very least it's state sponsored prejudice 09:12 And imagine you go to an administration and you say we 09:17 would like to build a big church in town. The first question they 09:21 will ask: Who are you? You are even not a church. 09:23 Yeah, you're not registered. 09:25 And you are not registered. 09:26 This is sort of out in left field, but do you think the 09:30 United States is heading toward some sort of registration of 09:33 religion with this explosion of many different religious 09:36 entities? I don't know. There is probably 09:39 a temptation. But it's not according to the tradition of 09:42 the U.S. to do that really. But in many other countries where 09:47 before having religious pluralities you have just one 09:51 church, it's more in their mind to say okay we have to control. 09:54 There are too many churches, too many religious groups, we 09:58 have to control them. And you try to control, and you start to 10:02 discriminate. I've always thought and I've 10:05 said in other discussions that back a few years when the faith 10:09 based initiative was brought into the United States by 10:11 President Bush, for many of us it seemed like a very calculated 10:16 step across the line of the constitutional separation of 10:20 church and state. But in so doing, giving money to the 10:24 churches in the way that they hadn't before I thought that 10:27 they were almost certain to develop a list of acceptable 10:31 churches; a back door registration, not really 10:35 overtly registering churches but government entities have decided 10:40 ahead of time which churches are above board in their view and 10:44 worthy of government trust. 10:45 You know there's always been a tension between state and 10:50 church. It means the churches wanted to be independent from 10:54 the state but on the other side the states always wanted to 10:58 control the churches. And its like a tension and a kind of 11:03 game; who will dominate the other. And of course they are 11:06 price. This is why more and more we can see around the world 11:11 a kind of alliance between some churches and the state. But for 11:15 us it's not good because you know the church has to keep 11:19 their message and their mission. 11:21 And as you describe it, it's sort of a natural human tendency 11:24 whether you're in government or in the church, that you want 11:27 to protect your turf and gain the most benefits of the stance. 11:30 I think it's less likely any time soon in the United States 11:34 because there is no one single church. The best you can come up 11:38 with is a monolithic coalition, if you like, of a certain 11:42 religious viewpoint that merges politics and religion. 11:45 That could come about. 11:47 And this is one of the principles of the association 11:50 is really to maintain and to develop and promote the 11:53 separation between church and state. Because there is no way 11:56 you now. As you said if you start to combine church and 11:59 state you will have to discriminate others and that's 12:03 not really religious freedom. We cannot deal with that. And at 12:06 the end it's not good for the state and it's not good for the 12:09 church. That's right. And in promoting 12:11 religious liberty, I'm glad you brought that out, we're not in 12:15 any country suggesting something that will disadvantage the 12:19 secular state. It actually creates for a more secure 12:23 environment for the state and the civil security of it's 12:27 citizenry and the spiritual life of anybody who wants to practice 12:31 religious faith. It's been proven by many examples, hasn't 12:34 it, that this is the most harmonious way to carry this 12:37 forward. There's a lot to discuss with Dr. Graz. We'll be 12:41 back after the break to further this discussion of his work 12:44 globally for religious liberty and the IRLA as a representative 12:48 of the Seventh-day Adventist church. 12:50 ¤ ¤ 12:59 One hundred years, a long time to do anything much less publish 13:03 a magazine. But this year Liberty, the Seventh-day 13:07 Adventist voice of religious freedom celebrates 100 years 13:11 of doing what it does best, collecting, analyzing, and 13:15 reporting the ebb and flow of religious expression around the 13:18 world. Issue after Issue Liberty has taken on the tough 13:22 assignments, tracking down threats to religious freedom and 13:25 exposing the work of the devil in every corner of the globe. 13:29 Governmental interference, personal attacks, corporate 13:32 assaults, even religious freedom issues sequestered within the 13:35 church community itself have been clearly and honestly 13:38 exposed. Liberty exists for one purpose: To help God's people 13:43 maintain that all important separation of church and state 13:47 while recognizing the dangers inherent in such a struggle. 13:50 During the past century liberty has experienced challenges of 13:54 its own but it remains on the job thanks to the inspired 13:58 leadership of a long line of dedicated Adventist editors 14:01 three of whom represent almost half of the publication's 14:04 existence and the foresight of a little woman from New England. 14:08 One hundred years of struggle, 100 years of victories. 14:12 Religious freedom isn't just about political machines and 14:16 cultural prejudices, it's about people fighting for the right to 14:21 serve the God they love as their hearts and the Holy Spirit 14:24 dictate. Thanks to the prayers and generous support of 14:28 Seventh-day Adventists everywhere, Liberty will 14:31 continue to accomplish its work of providing timely information 14:34 Spirit filled inspiration and heaven sent encouragement 14:37 to all who long to live and work in a world bound together by the 14:43 God ordained bonds of religious freedom. 14:47 ¤ ¤ 14:57 Welcome back to The Liberty Insider. Before the break, I was 15:00 talking with my guest, Dr. John Graz. First of all, I introduced 15:04 you as the world director for the Seventh-day Adventist 15:07 church of the Public Affairs and Religious Liberty Department 15:10 and then we got to talking about the IRLA, and then we got into 15:14 philosophy which is the whole reason we do this. But now I 15:18 want to bring it back more particular again. I edit Liberty 15:22 Magazine; our viewers know that. That's a magazine that our 15:26 church began about 106 years ago now. But you have a publication 15:31 out of the headquarters that's not competitive to Liberty, in 15:35 fact we help you in some ways produce this but maybe you could 15:41 hold that up to show our viewers It's called... and it's really 15:48 to target the intellectual, the scholars, the more academic. 15:52 Because you know when you are defending religious freedom you 15:57 need to work on several levels. You know at the level of the 16:01 people: This is why we organize big meetings like Festival of 16:05 Religious Freedom. Then you need also to reach the scholars who 16:09 are already working on similar topics. Then you need to reach 16:14 to the highest among the scholar who are writing, thinking, 16:19 making research about religious freedom because when people 16:24 want to change a law they have to read a lot about it. 16:26 Yeah, I know a lot of the articles in this annual 16:30 publication are actually presentations by some of the 16:33 experts at IRLA and events that you've organized. 16:36 This journal is read in the best universities around the world 16:40 and those who are writing in this journal are also the best 16:44 experts around the world. And it helps a lot. You know when we 16:49 are visiting ambassadors or people from the government and 16:53 so on, that's very good as an association we can show them 16:57 that we are not just talking but we are supported by a group of 17:02 very good experts and this is why it's a very good tool for us 17:07 And I'm sure they read it and this coherent, well thought out, 17:12 well researched... We have a great signature. 17:15 I know when you organize congresses and symposium, people 17:18 want to be published and you give them the opportunity to be 17:21 published. I've been to a number of the 17:23 congresses that you've organized They've been wonderful. The one 17:26 that I'll never forget was in South Africa, in Cape Town. 17:30 Now you have another one coming up not too far away. 17:33 Yeah, it will be our seventh world congress on religious 17:38 freedom and there will be in April 26-28, 2012. Then after 17:42 the congress we will have a big festival in Santo Domingo. But 17:46 the congress will become an event in the world of religious 17:50 freedom. It will not be just in the Adventist world but in the 17:54 world of religious freedom. The best experts will come and the 17:58 problem we have now, Lincoln, we have too many speakers, 18:01 top level speakers. I am in charge of the program; I am the 18:06 general coordinator and I asked me, I said, but how can I put 18:10 all these people. They are excellent people. 18:11 Have them speak less. My father used to organize ICPA, the 18:18 International Commission for the Prevention of Alcoholism, world 18:21 congresses very similar and he had people coming from all 18:24 around the world and some of them just a 15 minute 18:26 presentation. Oh yeah, that's terrible. They 18:28 are coming from the other side of the world and you ask them 18:32 to speak 15 minutes! But that's the way we organize congresses. 18:35 You need to have people, you know, at congresses, you need 18:38 to be sure that you have a kind of authority in inviting people 18:42 who are really the best experts in the field. Of course, when 18:46 you have these people, the governments are interested. 18:49 Then first you have to face the problem of too many speakers, 18:53 then after people, official people, they want to come too. 18:58 Prime minister, president of the senate, they want to come 19:02 because they say oh there are a lot of people there, we want to 19:05 come and you have another challenge; where are you going 19:08 to put them. I know that this has a direct 19:10 influence on the governance in many countries, but particularly 19:13 where you hold those conferences You and I were at that one not 19:17 too long ago in Dominican Republic which was a precursor 19:22 to the one coming and I remember some of the legislators, their 19:25 reporting on ongoing efforts to rewrite their constitution. 19:29 So there was a give and take with the attendees that I 19:33 believe was directly informing their active constitutional 19:37 development. And that is also one of the 19:39 positive sides of the congress. We encourage people who are 19:42 really fighting for religious freedom, for more religious 19:46 freedom. You know in countries like Peru, at the end of all 19:50 these activities, festival, congresses, symposium, they 19:53 passed new legislation and our church is now recognized as a 19:58 church. Seventh-day Adventists were not 20:01 recognized until fairly recently? 20:02 No, you know in many countries we are not legally recognized. 20:05 We are legally recognized as an association, religious 20:09 organization and so on, but not as a church. But they have to 20:12 change the law in many places to recognize you as a church. 20:16 Of course it makes a lot of difference. When you are 20:18 recognized as a church you can build a church, you can also 20:23 build a religious school without giving explanation and so on. 20:27 It changes your status and it's very important. 20:31 Now Peru, for those Seventh-day Adventists watching, we have a 20:35 huge membership there. Isn't it about half a million? 20:37 More or less, yeah, more or less, yeah. 20:39 Incredible. In fact the other day I was thinking about it. As 20:42 we film this it's near Christmas time and as I go into some of 20:45 the international food shops they've got these panettone's, 20:49 this Italian star Christmas cake and this year particularly as I 20:53 look at them, I see they're not coming from Italy, they're 20:55 coming from Peru. They come from the Seventh-day 20:58 Adventist University bakery. They are the number one in the 21:03 country. So it's not religious liberty, 21:05 but a little interesting sign of an activity in a country that's 21:08 far away in the minds of most Americans but very active 21:12 Seventh-day Adventist Church there. 21:15 You still see that in many countries in Latin America, the 21:18 government and people are more and more open about religious 21:22 freedom. It was not the case 40 years ago, but now they are more 21:25 so. And that's interesting to see that the restrictions have 21:29 been in many countries, but in some countries of Latin America 21:33 we have more freedom today and the church and all the churches 21:36 are more recognized today than it was 20 or 30 years ago. 21:40 This is the irony, and we can talk about it again but from the 21:43 beginning of this program I've brought in my sermons years ago 21:47 used to emphasize an example I got from a piece of literature 21:52 you know, The Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens. He says at 21:55 the beginning, "it was the best of times and the worst of times" 21:58 It was the best of times and the worst of times. 22:00 And for religious liberty I think that's very true isn't it? 22:04 Some of the things that are happening in these middle 22:08 eastern countries where they will actually execute you for 22:11 changing your religion. It's just incredible. But at the same 22:14 time in Latin America and else where I think there's a greater 22:17 and greater religious freedom. I think the world is sort of 22:20 shaking off its torpor of the previous years and seeing that 22:24 individuals have rights. 22:25 And you know which is happening now in several countries in 22:29 Latin America is the number of evangelicals is really growing, 22:32 growing up and in some countries they are close to being the 22:36 majority. It means things are changing, but you know the 22:40 concept of religious freedom is perceived as the best way to 22:45 have peace in the country. Because if you discriminate a 22:49 group of churches and you give all the privileges and 22:53 advantages to just one church of course it's not the best way 22:57 to deal with peace. 22:58 Let me throw an idea at you. I've been studying this like you 23:01 and watching it and I do think generally speaking throughout 23:05 the whole world, even in countries that haven't yet given 23:08 way, they don't reject but they grudgingly, some of them, accept 23:12 the concept that yes people have a right to determine their own 23:16 religious identity. I think that's on the ascendency. 23:19 What I think is in the decline, and that's an interesting 23:24 contradiction is a democratic concept of the rule of the 23:29 people and sort of the enlightenment view of democracy; 23:34 I think that's on the decline. Even in the west we're heading 23:37 toward autocratic representative type government and at some 23:41 point I think the still emerging religious liberty view 23:46 point is going to be in conflict with the ever tightening statism 23:49 You know Lincoln this is why also the association is 23:53 defending religious freedom and human rights and we are 23:56 defending religious freedom in the context of human rights, 23:59 because you know we see that there are a lot of challenges 24:02 against human rights today. And of course it will affect 24:05 religious freedom. We're sailing on and we need to 24:09 have some more programs. But when we're talking about Punta 24:13 Cana and this upcoming event I think it would be good for us 24:15 to watch a little video that you prepared that gives us a bit of 24:18 an idea what's going so let's take a break. We can watch it 24:21 and our viewers can see this too 24:23 The world's foremost voices in championing religious freedom 24:26 will gather in Punta Cana, Dominican Republic in April 2012 24:30 for the 7th IRLA World Congress. They will explore the secular 24:34 challenges to the expression of religious faith. If you have a 24:38 passion for religious freedom, you will want to participate in 24:41 one of the world's most informative conventions on the 24:43 subject. Scholars and advocates whose careers are dedicated to 24:47 seeking religious harmony in the modern society will share their 24:50 research and discuss with you how to make the world a more 24:53 peaceful place. Space is limited so register now at 24:56 www.IRLA.org. Please join us for this unique 25:03 opportunity to meet religious and political leaders from 25:06 around the world. Join us to show you love religious freedom. 25:11 And stand for it. I am looking forward to welcoming you to the 25:16 Dominican Republic in April 2012 25:21 Well that was an interesting presentation John. I can tell 25:23 it's going to be a great time, not just beach time although 25:26 anybody seeing that think will man those beaches look good. 25:28 I know there are going to be some serious lectures and some 25:31 of them, I'm sure, will find their way into Fides. 25:33 I think we are expecting more than 600 participants, maybe 800 25:38 and it means that that would be the largest congress on 25:41 religious freedom during the year. It will be a world event, 25:44 not just for us, the world event. 25:47 I know I'm planning on being there and I know some of our 25:49 religious liberty leaders from north America are going. We're 25:52 hoping a couple of hundred. 25:54 Of course they can visit our web site where they will see all the 25:57 information. www.IRLA.org. 26:04 Very good. Well, thanks for being a guest on this program 26:08 and you know what do you want to say in conclusion? 26:09 Just sum up the work of the IRLA. 26:12 Sometime people ask why are you organizing such an event like a 26:17 symposium, congresses, and so on to promote religious freedom? 26:21 You know, let things doing and even if we are persecuted we 26:25 will be persecuted and maybe Jesus will come earlier. 26:28 You know, that's not a way of thinking. I think we are 26:31 promoting and defending religious freedom because it's 26:34 a prophetic mission, because it's a gift from God and we want 26:38 to say that these gifts are for everyone, everyone around the 26:42 world and when we are doing that we are a sign of the kingdom of 26:46 God. Defending religious liberty is 26:50 a little bit more than just some good articles in a magazine like 26:54 Liberty and I'm the editor of Liberty so believe me, I think 26:58 that's quite important. It's also a little bit more than 27:01 defending someone in a court of law, as important as that is. 27:05 Defending religious liberty is even more important than 27:09 speaking out in your community. Defending religious liberty goes 27:14 way back. I can think of Paul standing before Felix and 27:19 Agrippa and ultimately Cesar. I can think of Luther standing 27:23 before the emperor at the Diet of Worms and defending his 27:27 actions as a representative of Christ and reform of the true 27:32 gospel. But I also think today that people like Dr. John Graz 27:36 and many others who are traveling the world speaking out 27:40 for religious liberty and the principles of truth that they 27:43 know so dear. It means sometimes speaking to other religious 27:47 leaders, it means speaking to heads of state, it means 27:50 speaking to those who are affected by a lack of religious 27:54 freedom, but always it means standing tall and true for a 27:58 faith that is worth defending and worth speaking out for 28:02 vigorously. For Liberty Insider this Lincoln Steed 28:06 ¤ ¤ |
Revised 2014-12-17