Welcome to the
"Liberty Insider."
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This is the
program for those of you
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that regularly watch it.
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This is the
program that brings you
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religious liberty news,
views, discussion, and opinion
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on breaking issues
all around the world
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and particularly
in North America.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on the
program is Dwayne Leslie.
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Dwayne Leslie is
legislative liaison
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for the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
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to the U.S.
government in Washington.
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Thank you for having
me here. It's my pleasure.
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As well as that responsibility
that I just outlined,
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you also function
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within the International
Religious Liberty Association.
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Yes, I'm the
Deputy Secretary-General
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for the International
Religious Liberty Association.
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And one of the
things that we're planning
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is world congress
for the religious freedom
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in Punta Cana,
Dominican Republic.
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Very good. That's what
I was easing your toward.
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You know, the
IRLA and I have some,
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some association with it too.
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And I've been
privilege to be involved
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in many of its
international events,
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but the international
religious liberty association
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was established, I think even
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a little bit
before Liberty Magazine,
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well over a century ago
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by the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
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as a way to involve
people of good faith
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who believe in
religious freedom,
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but internationally.
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So it's not really an
Adventist organization,
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but we have the
leading role under it, I guess.
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Now this, this
event in Punta Cana,
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does it have a theme?
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Is there a reason why
this is being convenient,
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apart from to
enjoy the beaches there?
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Well, although it is
a very lovely resort.
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Wonderful spot, I
think, But every five years,
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the IRLA comes
together to have a conference
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that really is targeting
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the promotion of
religious freedom
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on an international basis.
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So we'll have speakers
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from all across the
world, from various faiths,
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but all united
for a common purpose
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to promote and
protect religious freedom.
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So our theme for 2012
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is the secular
challenge to religious freedom.
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So we'll be bringing in speakers
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from various
government officials
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from all over the world to
address the secular challenges,
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but then also to talk
about other issues of concerned
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for the international community.
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Good. How many
people are we expecting?
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We're expecting
800 to 1,000 people.
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Wow. That's
quite a crew. So it's--
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And it'll be in
four different languages.
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English, Spanish,
French, and Portuguese.
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And so whatever
language people speak,
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we'll be able to have
translation equipment for them.
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Now it's worth
mentioning to our viewers
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who are all around the world.
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You know, 3ABN is
not just broadcast
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within the United States.
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But I know within United States,
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many people seem
largely unaware of,
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of Latin America in general,
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and unaware that
within South America,
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Brazil, Portuguese speaking.
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You mentioned Portuguese.
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It's a larger land
mass than the United States.
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Yes. It's a huge country.
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But and I think
people may not even realize
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that the growth of the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
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in South America is fantastic.
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Absolutely, and
church growth generally,
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and Adventist
growth in particularly
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in Latin America
is explosive too.
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There's something
stirring down there.
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So I'm sure of those
attendees a huge percentage
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will be coming from
that part of the world.
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And that's one of the reasons
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why we actually wanted
to locate this particular
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world congress in that region,
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we wanted to recognize
their incredible growth
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not only to the church,
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but just the opportunity
to again be a witness
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and a beacon to,
for religious liberty.
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You know, I attended
an IRLA sponsored event
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down there a
couple of years ago,
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where we had a rally,
for want of a better word,
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in a football stadium,
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and they were 15,000
people as I remember and it was,
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it was
invigorating, let me tell you.
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So I know that in that area,
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there's a huge enthusiasm
for religious freedom,
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from the people, the attendees,
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but then during
the rest of the week
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while I was
there in another hotel,
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not in Punta Cana, but
in the Dominican Republic.
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We heard presentations
from government leaders
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from within the
Dominican Republic
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and elsewhere in the area.
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And I was impressed
that the comprehension
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of the importance
of religious freedom.
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When I was a kid
growing up in Australia,
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it impressed me
mightily that several times
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we were called to division wide,
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which was area wide
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for Australia and New
Zealand prayer for Christians,
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not just Adventist
Christians in Latin America
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who have been persecuted.
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And the general
root of the persecution
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back then was after centuries
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of direct control
by the State Church,
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which was Roman Catholicism.
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People were trying to
find their own way spiritually,
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and they were being prosecuted
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by the state
because they were not--
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Right. Roman Catholic.
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We're so far passed
that now that as I heard the,
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the representatives from
the Dominican Republic say,
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and they were in the
process when we were there,
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of drawing up a new constitution
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that while they have
a special relationship,
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for want of a better term
with the Roman Catholic Church.
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You know, they've cut free
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of that old
model and are granting
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full and free religious
liberties to everybody.
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So it's a new day. Now, it is.
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And what's
interesting is that as we travel
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and talk to people in
that part of the world,
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again to see the
lengths that people are willing
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to go to promote
religious freedom.
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I'll give you one example
in the country of Columbia.
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One of the senators
there, Charles Schultz,
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who will actually be coming
to the world congress to speak,
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he took the lead in actually
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changing the
Columbian constitution
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to specifically enact
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protections for
religious freedom.
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And he did so tirelessly
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and was able to
actually have now countrified
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religious freedom written in,
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and now they have a very vibrant
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chapter of the International
Religious Liberty Association
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in Columbia to protect freedoms.
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Now you're
closer to the scheduling
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of this event than I am,
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so I'll ask you in
front of the camera
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and you may not--
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as there are
presentations planned to discuss
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the ongoing problem
in Chiapas in Mexico,
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that's quite a-- Yes,
we're actually going--
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I'm actually in
charge of putting together
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some of the breakout sessions.
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And we'll be talking about
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some of the specific
issues in Mexico generally
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and then other
parts of the world
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because
obviously that's something
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that is of great
concern to our church.
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Yeah, I just mentioned
that because it's close by,
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I mean, that's in
the neck of the woods.
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Now I think earlier
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you gave the
topic of the congress.
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"The Secular
Challenge to Religious Freedom."
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The Secular Challenge,
now that's interesting.
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We'll talk a little bit in
the second half of the program
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about another aspect
of that presentation,
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but for Punta Cana,
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is secularism really a
challenge to Latin America,
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that's interesting.
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Well, it may not be a challenge
specifically in Latin America.
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But I think, when we look at it
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from a global perspective,
particularly in Europe
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I think we see it. Absolutely.
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As a particular issue where we,
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the IRLA had a
meeting of experts
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in Australia this past
year and where we touched
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on some of the
secular issues there as well.
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And Australia is another country
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as I'm sure you
know, where secularism is--
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Well, that's what I
wanted to discuss in--
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Oh, in the second half,
but we'll, we can come to that.
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But what, when I hear that topic
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I think
immediately of Pope Benedict
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who in his Regensburg address
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which caused a lot
of trouble with Muslims,
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and I think it not correctly,
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I mean, it
shouldn't have been so,
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because he wasn't
talking about Islam really.
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But he listed three
severe challenges to the church
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and he threw away
one at the beginning,
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the Protestant
model of Sola Scripture,
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you know, I'll discuss
that another time, okay.
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But the second two were
variations of secularism.
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He sees secularism
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as a severe test
for Christianity.
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And so at the
very least we should,
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should have ready participation
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for the Roman Catholic Church
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in Latin America
at this conference
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because this is
the, a clearly identified
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area of threat
according to Rome.
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Now and-- Well, it's interesting
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because the Catholic Church
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has been very
active in the field
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of religious
liberty as well too.
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Yes, and-- You know,
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I hope they're not swipes,
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but I often
mentioned the Catholic Church
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because we have a--
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well, as Protestants
we have historical issues,
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but not-- We don't
currently have issues
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with the Catholic
Church on religious freedom.
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They are speaking very correctly
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on the dynamic of
religious freedom.
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And Catholics as well as
many other Protestant Christians
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are being persecuted
actively around the world.
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They're not generally,
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the persecutors in
the modern world, so--
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Yeah, that's correct.
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But back to the point
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that the Catholic
Church has raised,
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that that we clearly share
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and want to focus on in
this conference, secularism.
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An awful lot of,
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of our discussion
in Liberty Magazine
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and on this program is about
avert persecution of people
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have faith in different
countries of the world.
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And I think that
that's the major threat.
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But secularism itself
taken as a philosophical mindset
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and how it
expresses itself in societies
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can be quite a
threat to religious faith.
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It can, but as we've
talked about an other shows,
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in some ways,
secularism can sometimes
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also be a friend
to religious freedom
00:10:01.57\00:10:03.35
because what it does is,
00:10:03.36\00:10:05.70
it actually takes religion out
of any church day combination.
00:10:05.71\00:10:10.27
Well, that's true.
00:10:10.28\00:10:11.25
And it shows with me that
you and I agree very much.
00:10:11.26\00:10:14.18
So I'm reticent to
make too much of secularism.
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You can't dismiss it,
because secularism contributes
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to the modern
cynicism about religion,
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which even if it
doesn't attack religion directly
00:10:23.83\00:10:26.38
can ultimately pull out
00:10:26.39\00:10:28.98
its support
structure in a society.
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Back to what I
said in another program
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about the Arab Spring.
00:10:33.38\00:10:35.62
Ultimately it's what
society thinks about something
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that determines where you go,
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not what
structure is imposed on you.
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Right, because-- I agree.
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So, but I found
some of the recent
00:10:43.73\00:10:48.36
discussions on
secularism interesting.
00:10:48.37\00:10:50.87
I don't agree, and I
don't know what your view is.
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I don't agree classifying
secularism as a religion
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because it appears to mimic
religion in some structures
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and how philosophically
people sort of adhere
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to it like a religious faith,
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I think that's sort of a false--
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I don't agree
that it's a religion.
00:11:08.40\00:11:10.62
But I think as you pointed out.
00:11:10.63\00:11:13.00
When you have
too much secularism,
00:11:13.01\00:11:14.54
then there's an increasing
cynicism about religion
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and any sort of interjection
into day-to-day society.
00:11:18.80\00:11:23.97
And so I think that
the secular challenge
00:11:23.98\00:11:26.22
to religious freedom
is when a society goes
00:11:26.23\00:11:28.65
completely secular,
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then you may see
the absence of religion.
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Absolutely. I don't know if
I have time before our break.
00:11:33.55\00:11:36.67
'Cause I want to
take a break very shortly,
00:11:36.68\00:11:38.67
but when I was in Australia--
00:11:38.68\00:11:41.29
And after the break, we
will discuss this more fully.
00:11:41.30\00:11:43.72
We had an IRLA,
00:11:43.73\00:11:45.04
meeting of experts
examining secularism
00:11:45.05\00:11:48.53
and its
challenges. While I was there,
00:11:48.54\00:11:50.42
I got into an
interesting discussion
00:11:50.43\00:11:52.76
with an
Egyptian Coptic Christian
00:11:52.77\00:11:55.21
in a fish and chips shop.
00:11:55.22\00:11:57.78
So let's take our break now,
00:11:57.79\00:11:59.24
it might be a little bit
early, but I'll take the break.
00:11:59.25\00:12:02.15
We'll be back to
continue this discussion
00:12:02.16\00:12:04.00
of secularism and
religious freedom.
00:12:04.01\00:12:06.83
One hundred years a
long time to do anything,
00:12:14.56\00:12:18.58
much less publish a magazine,
but this year "Liberty,"
00:12:18.59\00:12:22.44
the Seventh-day Adventist
voice of religious freedom
00:12:22.45\00:12:25.25
celebrates 100 years of doing
00:12:25.26\00:12:27.65
what it does best,
collecting, analyzing,
00:12:27.66\00:12:30.34
and reporting the ebb and flow
00:12:30.35\00:12:32.39
of religious
expression around the world.
00:12:32.40\00:12:35.04
Issue after
issue, Liberty has taken
00:12:35.05\00:12:37.66
on the tough assignments.
00:12:37.67\00:12:39.00
Tracking down
threats to religious freedom
00:12:39.01\00:12:41.17
and exposing the
work of the devil
00:12:41.18\00:12:42.60
in every corner of the globe.
00:12:42.61\00:12:44.84
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:12:44.85\00:12:47.63
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom issues
00:12:47.64\00:12:50.48
sequestered within the
church community itself
00:12:50.49\00:12:52.75
have been clearly
and honestly exposed.
00:12:52.76\00:12:55.64
Liberty exists for one
purpose to help God's people
00:12:55.65\00:12:59.33
maintain that all
important separation
00:12:59.34\00:13:01.78
of church and
state while recognizing
00:13:01.79\00:13:04.06
the dangers
inherent in such a struggle.
00:13:04.07\00:13:07.06
During the past century,
00:13:07.07\00:13:08.30
Liberty has experienced
challenges of its own,
00:13:08.31\00:13:10.90
but it remains on the job.
00:13:10.91\00:13:13.11
Thanks to the
inspired leadership
00:13:13.12\00:13:14.88
of a long line of
dedicated Adventist editors,
00:13:14.89\00:13:17.69
three of whom
represent almost half
00:13:17.70\00:13:19.20
of the publications'
existence and the foresight
00:13:19.21\00:13:21.95
of a little
woman from New England.
00:13:21.96\00:13:24.14
One hundred years of struggle,
100 years of victories,
00:13:24.15\00:13:28.66
religious freedom isn't
just about political machines
00:13:28.67\00:13:31.67
and cultural prejudices.
00:13:31.68\00:13:33.28
It's about people fighting
for the right to serve the God
00:13:33.29\00:13:37.45
they love as their hearts
and the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:13:37.46\00:13:41.54
Thanks to the
prayers and generous support
00:13:41.55\00:13:43.67
of Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere.
00:13:43.68\00:13:46.17
Liberty will
continue to accomplish
00:13:46.18\00:13:47.99
its work of
providing timely information,
00:13:48.00\00:13:50.08
spirit filled inspiration,
00:13:50.09\00:13:51.68
and heaven sent
encouragement to all
00:13:51.69\00:13:54.40
who long to live
and work in a world
00:13:54.41\00:13:57.60
bound together by the God
00:13:57.61\00:13:59.08
ordained bonds of
religious freedom.
00:13:59.09\00:14:02.21
Welcome back to
the "Liberty Insider."
00:14:12.53\00:14:14.68
Before the break, I
was talking with guest,
00:14:14.69\00:14:16.85
Dwayne Leslie about--
00:14:16.86\00:14:21.31
Well, about
secularism in general,
00:14:21.32\00:14:22.58
but I want to tell you a story.
00:14:22.59\00:14:23.80
When I was in Australia--
I'm originally from Australia,
00:14:23.81\00:14:26.22
so I feel like at home there.
00:14:26.23\00:14:27.91
And part of my
coming home experience
00:14:27.92\00:14:31.85
since last time
was between meetings,
00:14:31.86\00:14:34.03
and we were at
meeting of experts for IRLA.
00:14:34.04\00:14:36.94
Between meetings, I went to
00:14:36.95\00:14:39.50
a fish and chips
shop at a beach one day.
00:14:39.51\00:14:44.66
You know, they have many things
00:14:44.67\00:14:45.68
besides fish and chips,
00:14:45.69\00:14:46.77
but that's the indigenous
one. It's not indigenous.
00:14:46.78\00:14:49.22
I think it came from
Ireland. It actually did.
00:14:49.23\00:14:51.35
The fish and chips,
and of course, the chips.
00:14:51.36\00:14:53.10
The chips came
from South America,
00:14:53.11\00:14:56.63
but that's a complex
story, it's a different shop.
00:14:56.64\00:14:59.40
And I went to this shop
00:14:59.41\00:15:00.88
and here's a woman with
quite an Australian accent,
00:15:00.89\00:15:03.15
but I'm becoming
more sensitive to accents,
00:15:03.16\00:15:06.39
and there's a
little twist to her accent.
00:15:06.40\00:15:07.82
So I said, "Where are you from?"
00:15:07.83\00:15:09.72
And she says,
"Oh, I'm from Egypt."
00:15:09.73\00:15:12.53
She says, "I'm a
Coptic Christian."
00:15:12.54\00:15:15.30
And so that lead
to a long discussion.
00:15:15.31\00:15:18.31
Had a very
interesting discussion.
00:15:18.32\00:15:19.62
And I told her, "I
was with Liberty Magazine.
00:15:19.63\00:15:21.93
I'm working for
religious freedom."
00:15:21.94\00:15:23.37
And she kept saying, "I
wish my husband were here.
00:15:23.38\00:15:25.54
He has so many opinions on this.
00:15:25.55\00:15:26.88
He would love to talk to you."
00:15:26.89\00:15:28.17
You know, she
was really energized.
00:15:28.18\00:15:29.99
And apart from other topics,
00:15:30.00\00:15:32.34
we finally got onto
talking about Australia
00:15:32.35\00:15:34.72
and its secular mindset.
00:15:34.73\00:15:36.11
And she says, "This
country is so secular."
00:15:36.12\00:15:38.46
She says, "Religion
doesn't matter here."
00:15:38.47\00:15:40.76
She says, "They don't know,
00:15:40.77\00:15:41.75
what it's like in my
family, and my country."
00:15:41.76\00:15:44.24
She says, "Well, I was
persecuted for my faith."
00:15:44.25\00:15:46.72
And she says,
"They're so secular here."
00:15:46.73\00:15:49.01
She said that,
00:15:49.02\00:15:50.08
"They are actually
vulnerable to offbeat
00:15:50.09\00:15:54.27
sort of religious sentiment."
00:15:54.28\00:15:56.47
And I had never
thought of it that way.
00:15:56.48\00:15:57.64
She says, "They're
like naive to religion."
00:15:57.65\00:16:00.68
And then I remembered something.
00:16:00.69\00:16:04.38
In fact, I discussed it with her
00:16:04.39\00:16:05.53
that I had seen on the TV
00:16:05.54\00:16:06.74
in Australia a
little bit earlier,
00:16:06.75\00:16:08.35
a bizarre happenstance.
00:16:08.36\00:16:12.46
On TV, we saw the actual event
00:16:12.47\00:16:14.19
where a policeman
stopped a woman from speeding.
00:16:14.20\00:16:19.27
And he asked her
to get out of the car.
00:16:19.28\00:16:20.57
She was an Australian.
00:16:20.58\00:16:22.58
And I was gonna say,
indigenous, but that's not true.
00:16:22.59\00:16:25.52
The indigenous
Australia are aborigines.
00:16:25.53\00:16:27.12
But she was a true
blue Australian as they say.
00:16:27.13\00:16:30.80
Very heavy, almost
cockney Australian accent,
00:16:30.81\00:16:34.19
but she had a Burqa on.
00:16:34.20\00:16:37.32
A full one and
her face was covered.
00:16:37.33\00:16:39.75
And the minute she gets out
of the car on the police camera.
00:16:39.76\00:16:42.30
She's just swearing at him.
00:16:42.31\00:16:45.55
Blue murder. Just calling
him everything under the sun.
00:16:45.56\00:16:48.58
You so and so and all this.
00:16:48.59\00:16:50.13
And he says,
"Madam, will you please--"
00:16:50.14\00:16:51.94
He asked for the license.
00:16:51.95\00:16:53.64
He says, "Will you
please take off your, your--"
00:16:53.65\00:16:57.65
The Burqa. Burqa.
00:16:57.66\00:16:59.14
He didn't say Chador, but
it was more like a Chador.
00:16:59.15\00:17:01.19
It was a full ankle length.
00:17:01.20\00:17:04.83
And no, I will not,
shouted are you so and so.
00:17:04.84\00:17:07.58
You're police brutality.
00:17:07.59\00:17:08.91
He hadn't laid a finger on her.
00:17:08.92\00:17:10.82
And so he booked
her and arrested her.
00:17:10.83\00:17:15.15
Then it went to
court. And can you believe?
00:17:15.16\00:17:17.66
And this is
where I saw it on TV,
00:17:17.67\00:17:18.83
it was just
after the court case.
00:17:18.84\00:17:20.66
The judge released her
because it could not be proven
00:17:20.67\00:17:24.31
that she was the
person that he arrested
00:17:24.32\00:17:26.03
since they had
never seen her face.
00:17:26.04\00:17:29.71
So she never took off the Burqa.
00:17:29.72\00:17:31.48
No, no, but that there
were new riots in the streets.
00:17:31.49\00:17:38.01
Not so much by Australians,
but by her supporters.
00:17:38.02\00:17:40.94
Just viciously
attacking the authorities
00:17:40.95\00:17:43.90
and pushing and shoving
and religious persecution,
00:17:43.91\00:17:46.95
and all the rest.
00:17:46.96\00:17:47.93
And then other Australians
are just looking on blindly.
00:17:47.94\00:17:51.03
This woman made the
comment. I think she's correct.
00:17:51.04\00:17:53.83
That you know,
Islam is, is Islamist,
00:17:53.84\00:17:56.71
not a matter of
the Islam is wrong,
00:17:56.72\00:17:58.48
but the worst elements
in this particular religion
00:17:58.49\00:18:01.38
seem to be
attracting some of these people.
00:18:01.39\00:18:03.08
'Cause they had no
point of reference.
00:18:03.09\00:18:06.22
from any religion.
00:18:06.23\00:18:07.20
They were not Christian.
They were post-Christian.
00:18:07.21\00:18:08.86
They didn't care
for any religion.
00:18:08.87\00:18:10.61
But the quaintness of
the Burqa in this case,
00:18:10.62\00:18:14.26
I think attracted this woman,
00:18:14.27\00:18:15.29
who underneath was just
a tough inner city woman
00:18:15.30\00:18:18.85
who was not
spiritually minded at all.
00:18:18.86\00:18:21.81
So what you're saying is
that the secularism is being
00:18:21.82\00:18:27.15
so infused in society made them
00:18:27.16\00:18:29.99
not really
sensitive to religiously--
00:18:30.00\00:18:32.36
Religiously naive.
Right. And very vulnerable to--
00:18:32.37\00:18:36.71
I use, I shouldn't
use the word extremist,
00:18:36.72\00:18:38.62
but you know, an
oddball application
00:18:38.63\00:18:40.74
of a particular religion.
00:18:40.75\00:18:43.64
And I've to admit, but that's
probably true in Australia.
00:18:43.65\00:18:47.41
And you saw it when
you were down there.
00:18:47.42\00:18:49.03
It's not necessarily antagonism,
open antagonism to religion,
00:18:49.04\00:18:53.38
but it's an
indifference to religion.
00:18:53.39\00:18:54.76
Religion doesn't matter day,
00:18:54.77\00:18:57.74
for the daily
life of the country.
00:18:57.75\00:18:59.26
'Cause I think that
there's a difference
00:18:59.27\00:19:00.57
in certain places in Europe.
00:19:00.58\00:19:02.17
I think there's an
actual overt antagonism.
00:19:02.18\00:19:04.80
Yes. Where as in Australia.
00:19:04.81\00:19:05.84
No, I don't think
it's an antagonism. Right.
00:19:05.85\00:19:07.44
People are just there
more focused like religion
00:19:07.45\00:19:09.78
has no bearing in my life, yeah.
00:19:09.79\00:19:11.85
I don't want to
even deal with it.
00:19:11.86\00:19:13.96
But if you want to, that's fine,
00:19:13.97\00:19:15.76
but don't talk to me about it.
00:19:15.77\00:19:17.07
And I must say, and
this doesn't further
00:19:17.08\00:19:18.71
our discussion of secularism.
00:19:18.72\00:19:19.82
But I had
interesting discussions
00:19:19.83\00:19:21.34
when I was there after
that and a few others like it.
00:19:21.35\00:19:24.09
When I went to the
markets and other places,
00:19:24.10\00:19:25.89
I start asking
people. "Where are you from?"
00:19:25.90\00:19:27.96
Because
Australia is like the U.S
00:19:27.97\00:19:30.70
and could argue even perhaps
00:19:30.71\00:19:31.73
more than the
U.S, a melting pot.
00:19:31.74\00:19:35.41
There are
Greeks and more people,
00:19:35.42\00:19:41.97
Italians and
people from all throughout
00:19:41.98\00:19:44.02
the Middle East and Europe.
00:19:44.03\00:19:46.43
And I found that
there are bunch of Turks.
00:19:46.44\00:19:48.93
They were-- What
about the groups.
00:19:48.94\00:19:52.66
It's very diverse.
00:19:52.67\00:19:53.84
In northern
Turkey, in northern Iraq
00:19:53.85\00:19:55.90
The Kurds. The Kurds.
00:19:55.91\00:19:57.23
I came across a
number of Kurdish
00:19:57.24\00:19:59.39
people running
convenient stores,
00:19:59.40\00:20:02.14
and they told me
the story of persecution
00:20:02.15\00:20:04.33
and again in
Turkey with Kemal Ataturk.
00:20:04.34\00:20:07.58
He'd come in and
try to bring secularism.
00:20:07.59\00:20:09.72
And I remember one fellow said,
00:20:09.73\00:20:10.99
"Kemal Ataturk, he
told us good things.
00:20:11.00\00:20:13.57
But when the
country was established,
00:20:13.58\00:20:15.19
he told the Kurds,
00:20:15.20\00:20:16.38
for the good of the
nation, you keep quiet.
00:20:16.39\00:20:18.14
We don't, we
can't accommodate you."
00:20:18.15\00:20:20.21
And as very often the case,
00:20:20.22\00:20:21.76
you know, an
ethnic subset in a country
00:20:21.77\00:20:24.72
often comes with a,
00:20:24.73\00:20:26.12
if not a
different religion entirely,
00:20:26.13\00:20:28.13
a different religious practice.
00:20:28.14\00:20:30.44
So there's always an element
00:20:30.45\00:20:32.23
of religious persecution there.
00:20:32.24\00:20:35.02
And in Australia
though that there,
00:20:35.03\00:20:36.50
but there's a
certain degree of tolerance
00:20:36.51\00:20:38.51
for religion, isn't there?
00:20:38.52\00:20:39.70
There's tolerance for religion,
00:20:39.71\00:20:41.22
there's not much
tolerance for religious talk.
00:20:41.23\00:20:43.67
I was running close to
the wind and these people,
00:20:43.68\00:20:46.08
you know, I figure, you
know, I chose my marks well.
00:20:46.09\00:20:48.79
But I've actually
seen it in Australia.
00:20:48.80\00:20:50.78
If you start to talk religion
to a person in the street,
00:20:50.79\00:20:53.11
they might swear
and curse at you,
00:20:53.12\00:20:54.74
they don't want it.
00:20:54.75\00:20:56.48
And you'll rarely get that in
the United States as you know.
00:20:56.49\00:20:59.70
People have a more of an innate
respect for religious talk.
00:20:59.71\00:21:02.96
So is there much active
00:21:02.97\00:21:03.94
evangelism in
there, in Australia?
00:21:03.95\00:21:06.37
There is, but it's not
traditional evangelism.
00:21:06.38\00:21:09.73
And it's-- Now
that's another question,
00:21:09.74\00:21:11.48
but those in Australia,
00:21:11.49\00:21:14.42
especially my
own church watching.
00:21:14.43\00:21:17.09
Be aware. But it
is more complex there.
00:21:17.10\00:21:22.88
And to some
degree, as Paul said,
00:21:22.89\00:21:24.75
you have to, said,
when he went to Athens,
00:21:24.76\00:21:28.64
you have to contact
people where they are.
00:21:28.65\00:21:31.26
But I believe in
evangelistic fashion,
00:21:31.27\00:21:33.27
you take them from
the common denominated
00:21:33.28\00:21:35.60
point quickly to
what you're about.
00:21:35.61\00:21:37.68
You just don't
leave it on sort of
00:21:37.69\00:21:39.09
a feel good relationship where,
00:21:39.10\00:21:41.06
because you haven't
challenge their assumption.
00:21:41.07\00:21:45.21
You know, they're not threatened
00:21:45.22\00:21:46.21
by your
religious viewpoint, right.
00:21:46.22\00:21:48.86
At some point, you
have to interject it.
00:21:48.87\00:21:51.56
What did you take away from
00:21:51.57\00:21:52.71
from that discussion
now secularism in Australia?
00:21:52.72\00:21:54.84
It was, it was pretty
free ranging, wasn't it?
00:21:54.85\00:21:56.81
Now it was, I mean.
00:21:56.82\00:21:57.96
And again, one of the things
00:21:57.97\00:21:59.59
that the meeting of expert
does being sort of a small,
00:21:59.60\00:22:02.61
high level academic conference,
00:22:02.62\00:22:04.75
to really get a
chance to dig in to,
00:22:04.76\00:22:06.71
not only the academic,
00:22:06.72\00:22:07.80
but some of the
practical implications from it.
00:22:07.81\00:22:10.36
And one, it was
interesting to actually,
00:22:10.37\00:22:11.90
as we've just
discussed, what's going on,
00:22:11.91\00:22:14.44
on the ground in Australia.
00:22:14.45\00:22:16.47
But again to look sort of
at the more subtle issues,
00:22:16.48\00:22:19.49
in terms of how secularism
00:22:19.50\00:22:21.89
impacts not only
our political life,
00:22:21.90\00:22:24.24
but as we go into
an electoral season,
00:22:24.25\00:22:27.27
and then also what's
going on in Europe to the extent
00:22:27.28\00:22:29.46
that secularism impacts the laws
00:22:29.47\00:22:31.81
that are being
drafted to possibly
00:22:31.82\00:22:34.52
impact the rights of
religious minorities?
00:22:34.53\00:22:37.08
Yeah. You know, we're talking,
00:22:37.09\00:22:39.44
I remember
saying that you wouldn't
00:22:39.45\00:22:43.10
automatically think
could be applied here,
00:22:43.11\00:22:44.72
but if you heard that comment.
00:22:44.73\00:22:46.74
"There are no atheists
in the trenches." Right.
00:22:46.75\00:22:51.20
How true it is, I
don't know, what I mean is,
00:22:51.21\00:22:53.17
I'm sure that there
are some hard-bitten cynics
00:22:53.18\00:22:55.37
that even faced with dead,
00:22:55.38\00:22:56.97
they're not gonna
give it all the way
00:22:56.98\00:22:58.64
and cry out for a deity.
00:22:58.65\00:23:00.24
But most people
generally and extremists
00:23:00.25\00:23:03.51
wanted some
spiritual support before back
00:23:03.52\00:23:05.98
and what the society or
their parents told them.
00:23:05.99\00:23:09.79
I really think
we're about to see
00:23:09.80\00:23:11.64
that worked out corporately.
00:23:11.65\00:23:13.62
Wherein Europe, they're
collapsing economically.
00:23:13.63\00:23:17.02
The United States
is suffering similarly
00:23:17.03\00:23:19.22
and whole world will
feel the shocks of this.
00:23:19.23\00:23:22.33
As these natural
supports, and of course,
00:23:22.34\00:23:24.16
secularism highly depends upon
00:23:24.19\00:23:26.76
a comfortable standard of living
00:23:26.77\00:23:29.34
and you know, not
the myriad stresses
00:23:29.35\00:23:32.68
that other
generations have known.
00:23:32.69\00:23:34.84
I myself think that secularism
can evaporate very quickly,
00:23:34.85\00:23:40.33
faced with a
lack of its supports
00:23:40.34\00:23:43.76
and it will move
quickly into what in Europe
00:23:43.77\00:23:46.36
used to the
traditional religious alliances.
00:23:46.37\00:23:49.45
If you're in
Germany, reflexly Lutheran.
00:23:49.46\00:23:52.33
If you're in Italy,
reflexly Roman Catholic.
00:23:52.34\00:23:55.18
I think those
things are gonna kick in.
00:23:55.19\00:23:57.40
Well, I think you're right.
00:23:57.41\00:23:58.40
Because I think people, people
don't often focus on the fact
00:23:58.41\00:24:01.62
that secularism
typically thrives
00:24:01.63\00:24:03.34
in good economic times, yeah.
00:24:03.35\00:24:05.08
But when things
are not going well,
00:24:05.09\00:24:07.28
we're going to see.
00:24:07.29\00:24:08.83
Like I said, people finding
00:24:08.84\00:24:10.03
that what they're used
to is suddenly crumbling.
00:24:10.04\00:24:12.70
And they're gonna be looking
for other, other alternatives.
00:24:12.71\00:24:15.44
Well, and I need to
qualify it a little bit more.
00:24:15.45\00:24:17.29
I know that life
is fairly complex.
00:24:17.30\00:24:19.28
I think as a generality,
00:24:19.29\00:24:20.41
people will fallback on their
innate religious assumptions.
00:24:20.42\00:24:24.66
Those that don't,
00:24:24.67\00:24:25.98
will fall toward
extreme solutions,
00:24:25.99\00:24:29.41
and that's where socialism
00:24:29.42\00:24:30.83
and militant
communism gained its strength,
00:24:30.84\00:24:33.60
where, you know,
revolutionary fervor.
00:24:33.61\00:24:35.56
But as I always felt
the little observation,
00:24:35.57\00:24:38.38
direct observation
I had of communism,
00:24:38.39\00:24:40.72
it clearly was
a religion of man,
00:24:40.73\00:24:42.73
but it-- I don't
believe that secularism
00:24:42.74\00:24:45.11
per se is a religious
contact or a religious model,
00:24:45.12\00:24:48.67
but communism was
very much-- Right.
00:24:48.68\00:24:50.53
Structured like a religion
and man's own perfectibility.
00:24:50.54\00:24:55.68
So we maybe
enabling, if not communism
00:24:55.69\00:24:57.73
that same sort of
revolutionary dynamic.
00:24:57.74\00:24:59.95
Well, I think the
next couple of years
00:24:59.96\00:25:01.61
are gonna be very
interesting, no question.
00:25:01.62\00:25:03.94
Because as we go through
again the electoral cycle here.
00:25:03.95\00:25:07.39
I think a lot of
issues are gonna play out.
00:25:07.40\00:25:09.18
We've talked about on
this various shows too,
00:25:09.19\00:25:12.71
but just as we look
00:25:12.72\00:25:13.97
at the economic
condition of the world,
00:25:13.98\00:25:15.94
and I think that
a lot is happening.
00:25:15.95\00:25:18.66
And as Seventh-day
Adventist Christians,
00:25:18.67\00:25:21.59
I think that we really
have to pay close attention
00:25:21.60\00:25:23.99
to what's going on in the world.
00:25:24.00\00:25:25.70
And so that kind of leads us
00:25:25.71\00:25:27.02
to why this
conference is so important
00:25:27.03\00:25:29.72
because as we look to
what's going on in the world,
00:25:29.73\00:25:32.33
we want to be able talk
about the issues in Europe,
00:25:32.34\00:25:34.94
in South America,
in the United States.
00:25:34.95\00:25:37.08
And be able to hopefully
00:25:37.09\00:25:38.37
provide some sort of
framework to individuals
00:25:38.38\00:25:42.66
who are interested in that.
00:25:42.67\00:25:44.22
So they can help to understand.
00:25:44.23\00:25:45.42
They can understand
world events better,
00:25:45.43\00:25:47.61
but then also to see
what's coming down the pipe.
00:25:47.62\00:25:49.98
Absolutely, and this is an
indispensable role of the IRLA
00:25:49.99\00:25:53.19
that it brings
together disparate individuals
00:25:53.20\00:25:56.40
and groups, and belief systems.
00:25:56.41\00:25:58.60
And we can share, we
can learn from each other,
00:25:58.61\00:26:00.56
and if we have truth,
00:26:00.57\00:26:02.40
it will out in
that sort of a context.
00:26:02.41\00:26:04.81
We're not
forcing anyone on anyone,
00:26:04.82\00:26:06.01
anything on anyone.
00:26:06.02\00:26:07.20
But I think there's
an educational process,
00:26:07.21\00:26:09.64
a dynamic that is very positive
00:26:09.65\00:26:11.74
from all the work of the IRLA.
00:26:11.75\00:26:13.39
And I know with
you, I really hope that
00:26:13.40\00:26:15.37
this conference in
Punta Cana is a great success.
00:26:15.38\00:26:18.10
And that's really our goal.
00:26:18.20\00:26:19.80
One of the things that
we want to do as I said to,
00:26:19.81\00:26:21.46
is to educate and to
have people, to have,
00:26:21.47\00:26:23.86
really have an
opportunity to sit down
00:26:23.87\00:26:26.20
and talk with people of all face
00:26:26.21\00:26:28.66
from all over
the world, to learn.
00:26:28.67\00:26:30.87
And we can
hopefully provide them
00:26:30.88\00:26:32.30
with requisite
tools and information,
00:26:32.31\00:26:35.88
a chance to network,
00:26:35.89\00:26:37.29
and to also enjoy
themselves in a nice location.
00:26:37.30\00:26:40.85
And so, at the end of the day,
00:26:40.86\00:26:42.57
we really want to focus on
providing religious freedom
00:26:42.58\00:26:45.18
and bringing people
together to support that cause.
00:26:45.19\00:26:49.66
When I was much younger
00:26:49.67\00:26:50.98
and not so believing
of the faith certainties.
00:26:50.99\00:26:53.73
I remember debating
once with a minister friend,
00:26:53.74\00:26:57.15
and after about an
hour of jesting with him on
00:26:57.16\00:27:00.55
whether or not this was true
00:27:00.56\00:27:01.80
and giving philosophical
answers to this or that.
00:27:01.81\00:27:04.26
He said, the trouble is--
00:27:04.27\00:27:05.24
He says, "You
just won't believe."
00:27:05.25\00:27:07.40
Well, that really is what it
is with the secularists today.
00:27:07.41\00:27:11.73
There are as many
reasons to believe in God
00:27:11.74\00:27:14.13
and to have faith as ever before
00:27:14.14\00:27:16.31
with the
collapsing world economy
00:27:16.32\00:27:17.83
and the changing certainties to,
00:27:17.84\00:27:21.57
certainly
uncertainties of modern life.
00:27:21.58\00:27:24.27
You could argue
that the secularist
00:27:24.28\00:27:26.74
perhaps is a dying breed.
00:27:26.75\00:27:28.74
But as the Bible
says, "He that cometh to God
00:27:28.75\00:27:31.69
must first believe that He is."
00:27:31.70\00:27:34.04
It's the challenge of those
00:27:34.05\00:27:35.22
of faith to bear
with those secularists.
00:27:35.23\00:27:39.10
We're in a modern world.
00:27:39.11\00:27:40.21
There are very
many secular concerns,
00:27:40.22\00:27:43.23
but we need to be concerned
00:27:43.24\00:27:45.20
that those
secularists are not avoiding
00:27:45.21\00:27:48.18
and denying themselves
the very true reality of faith
00:27:48.19\00:27:52.09
and the certainty that
comes from knowing a God,
00:27:52.10\00:27:55.03
serving a God,
00:27:55.04\00:27:56.46
and demanding as
religious liberty activists do,
00:27:56.47\00:27:59.39
that all of that
frame of wine be empowered
00:27:59.40\00:28:01.53
and authorized to believe so.
00:28:01.54\00:28:05.71
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:05.72\00:28:11.52