Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Dwayne Leslie
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000153
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00:22 Welcome to the "Liberty Insider."
00:25 This is the program that brings you up-to-date news, 00:27 views and discussion on religious liberty, events 00:30 and developments around the world 00:32 and of course in North America. 00:34 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine 00:38 and my guest on the program is Dwayne Leslie. 00:40 Welcome, Dwayne. 00:41 Thank you, Lincoln, glad to be here. 00:43 Dwayne, you are the legislative liaison 00:44 for the Seventh-day Adventist Church-- 00:46 That's correct. To Washington. 00:50 I wanna start the discussion by bringing up a name 00:52 that many of us remember with some-- 00:57 Well, nostalgia is the wrong word 00:58 but we feel-- Makes me feel heavy 00:59 when I think about the minister of religion 01:03 in Pakistan. Bhatti was his name. 01:07 He was assassinated not too long ago 01:11 among other reason because he stood out 01:13 for the rights of religious minorities 01:15 in that overwhelmingly Islamic country. 01:17 But there's a lot of intolerance 01:19 even of Islamic minorities there. 01:21 But he was a Christian. 01:23 A government minister in an overwhelmingly 01:25 and Islamic country, a Christian 01:27 and because of his views he was assassinated. 01:31 The reason I'm bringing this up is 01:32 I've been very encouraged to hear that Canada 01:35 is about to establish an office of religious freedom 01:39 particularly looking at the rights of minorities. 01:42 And they said the death of Bhatti in effect, 01:45 before he died, 01:46 his encouragement as the reason 01:48 why they're establishing this. 01:51 Well, I'm very pleased to see this 01:53 because one they've looked at the US model here 01:55 and one of the tools they're looking at is to base it 01:59 somewhat on what's going on here. 02:01 But they're definitely influenced 02:02 by international events and as we look at 02:05 what's happening with anti-religion laws 02:07 all throughout the world its very good to see a country 02:11 like Canada to say, they're going to affirmatively 02:14 try to protect the rights of religious minorities. 02:16 Yeah, when I first read this, I thought, 02:18 well, this is smacks of cheap political promises. 02:22 Prime Minister Harper-- When--then facing 02:26 a reelection campaign said that, 02:28 you know, if we're elected 02:30 we will establish this office, fine. 02:34 But I'm very happy that now that he is reelected. 02:37 He has repeated that comment. 02:40 More than a comment he has repeated it 02:41 in front of witnesses and the foreign minister 02:46 has held consultations with interested parties 02:50 about how to set it up so they're acting on this. 02:53 And it's been comforting to see that 02:55 because I know that he's come to the United States 02:57 and he's met with Ambassador-at-Large 03:01 for Religious Freedom, Suzan Johnson Cook. 03:03 They've had extensive discussions like you said 03:05 he's had consultations with other groups in Canada. 03:08 So it sounds like they've taken the right approach. 03:11 They're listening. 03:12 They're looking to see what works. What doesn't. 03:14 So when they form their own office 03:16 and hopefully it'll be a good model of success. 03:18 Now I'll ask you a question. 03:19 I don't know the answer of this myself. 03:20 Is this directly funded by the Canadian Government? 03:23 Who--where is the funding 03:25 coming from this, for this, do you know? 03:26 Well, I believe this will be an actual 03:28 newly created governmental entity. 03:31 So it'll be I believe under 03:33 the underside of the foreign minister 03:36 similar to the office here in United States 03:38 which is the under the Secretary of State. 03:40 I've seen some news reports 03:42 beside there is an involvement with the Aga Khan 03:44 and that just sort of got me interested. 03:48 But this is definitely a government initiative 03:50 from Canada. Right. 03:51 And Canada has got a good record on religious freedom. 03:54 Different model in the United States 03:56 and its worth reminding our US viewers 03:59 that while the US constitution has an admirable 04:02 protection of religion 04:03 and a model of separation of church and state, 04:05 while Canada doesn't have that same separation as viewpoint, 04:09 it's had a good record of protecting 04:10 religious freedom. Right. 04:12 I think the challenge that they will have is 04:15 given the political situation up there 04:17 I think some people are viewing this 04:18 with a little bit of skepticism. 04:19 Even though they're moving forward with it 04:21 or you know, or some minority groups cannot be protected 04:24 and that others but it will--it will be remain, 04:27 it remain to be seen how this will actually go together-- 04:30 Yeah, you know in previous discussion, 04:32 this is not the first program 04:34 you and I've done together. 04:35 I nearly quoted Jojo was animal farm. 04:38 You know we need to be very careful 04:40 when we talk about protecting religion 04:42 and religious rights of all the spectrum. 04:45 That we don't fall into the-- you know all animals are equal 04:47 but some animals are more equal than others. 04:52 Doesn't mean that you and I as a particular faith viewpoint 04:55 automatically equate other beliefs with us 04:58 but we need to equate the rights of everybody 05:01 on a level it has that they all have dignity 05:03 and equal right to exist. 05:05 It will be nice as the US won't be standing alone 05:09 in terms of not just looking at the rights 05:11 within our respective countries 05:13 but to actually go out proactively 05:15 and looking out what's going on. 05:16 So they can--not only with the United States 05:19 but Canada will be able 05:20 to then interject into situations. 05:22 Yeah. Use their influences. 05:23 And I think Canada has had a good image. 05:25 But there's no question but, 05:27 is by my analysis that on occasions 05:29 Canada is a smaller country so it sat on the sidelines. 05:33 Well, the US maybe as tilted against some big issue 05:38 but this is a greater show of solidarity 05:40 with those freedom loving countries 05:43 that value religious freedom. Absolutely. 05:45 And I think Canada by its ready acceptance 05:48 of some of these recent minorities 05:50 has greater credibility in some ways 05:52 with the US than the US I think. 05:55 Right because-- In the international forum. 05:56 In some ways they're viewed at-- 05:58 As being a bit more objective probably. 06:01 Yeah, in the real world. 06:03 I mean US for better or worse 06:05 has erected some barrier since 9/11. Right. 06:07 And Canada has been very open, 06:11 openhearted about accepting the dissidents. 06:13 And that's why I think we're very optimistic 06:15 to see 'cause while its, it maybe some of their model 06:18 because they don't have the history 06:19 that the United States has. 06:21 They have a chance to I think 06:22 really make some inroads into this area 06:24 that the United States can't do. 06:27 It's crossed my mind many, many times on this program. 06:31 When we talk about religious freedom 06:32 it's wonderfully positive. 06:35 Nearly always when we discuss how it works in the world 06:39 we're talking about the negative 06:41 because you almost define it 06:43 by the breach, don't you? Right. 06:46 And I don't really know how to get around that 06:49 except to reiterate that living in the United States 06:52 I happen to be an Australian. 06:54 Born in Australia but you know I've lived longer. 06:56 As I told a government worker the other day at Washington. 07:01 When they are questioning my origins. 07:02 I said I've lived longer in this country than you have. 07:04 He looked like he was in his mid 30s. 07:07 But you know, living in the United States, 07:10 you know, we have wonderful religious freedom. 07:12 There is things around the edge 07:14 that you need to guard and it may still go wrong 07:17 at some future point but right now 07:19 we have a good religious liberty situation. 07:21 Certainly very good in Australia. 07:23 Very good in Canada. 07:25 And somehow we need to help people 07:27 keep that in mind that all is not lost. 07:29 Yeah, by any means isn't? No, no. 07:31 Even though globally I think the tide is not moving 07:35 in the right direction. 07:38 No, I, again, I think you're-- 07:40 I agree with you completely on that. 07:42 Yeah, you're gonna make me force the discussion, 07:47 now I'm teasing you but--we, 07:48 we really need to debate on things. 07:50 Now where is it going wrong and why? 07:53 That's what we need to-- The religious freedom? 07:56 Yeah, I mean we've accepted this very good case 07:59 that it's not all lost. 08:00 But there are trends moving against this, 08:02 like the Arab Springs, for example. Sure. 08:04 Has been a lot of--was a few months ago wonderful, 08:07 optimistic, positive, wishful thinking about that. 08:12 You know, I read many of the news, 08:14 journals and newspapers and I can't fault them 08:17 for wanting to expect the best 08:19 but the logic wasn't with them. Right. 08:22 In my view, these upheavals 08:25 overdue as they were against real despotism in some cases, 08:29 that underlying dynamic hardly was reassuring 08:31 and it likely was going to 08:33 go to further religious intolerance. 08:35 No, and I think a classic example is, 08:37 if you look at what's going on in Egypt 08:39 with the persecution of the Christians there. 08:41 Just a days ago was that-- Right, no. 08:44 An overt attack on-- Captive Christians. 08:46 The captive Christians, yeah, and so what that shows you 08:50 is that there are still problems going on. 08:52 And there are still intolerance 08:53 or still persecution and so even though 08:56 there are signs that we're moving in the right direction 08:59 but we still have pretty serious problems. 09:02 Yeah, as you look at what's happened in the Middle East, 09:06 in the Arab Spring, you know, what's that Tunisia, 09:11 Libya, Egypt, Syria is an ongoing question. 09:14 Do you think any of them will end up? 09:17 and what approximates 09:18 the liberal democratic structure? 09:21 I'm not optimistic personally but I'm still hopeful. 09:25 We have to, but, you know, hope shouldn't die that easy 09:28 but uninformed hope, you know, 09:32 we've got to be realist I think. 09:34 And what I think is the real battle 09:37 and nobody saying this is, yes, 09:39 they have had structural changes that were needed 09:43 because many of them were under despotic systems. 09:46 Even if they weren't daily despotism 09:49 they were structures that were fed by graft 09:52 and bribery and special interests, 09:55 sounds like some of the western governments. No. 10:00 But you know, they were not ideal governments, 10:04 and now they're throwing that off 10:06 but we need to think for a minute. 10:08 Why would it suddenly turn 10:09 into liberal democratic system? 10:12 Why would they suddenly be 10:14 the free granting of religious rights to everyone? 10:16 If the society, if in the neighborhood, 10:19 if in, you know, the group that go to the local mosque, 10:23 their views of life 10:25 and religion are very constricted 10:29 and prejudice and at times even violent. 10:31 Because even with the change that's happened, 10:34 but yourself look at-- Some people. 10:35 Oh, this is the same people 10:36 who grew up in that environment-- Yeah. 10:38 And so when there is a vacuum what happens? 10:41 People tend to fall back to what they know. 10:43 And so you replace one power group 10:45 with another power group and overtime, 10:48 many of the same abuses may continue to take place. 10:50 Yeah, you know, there was a comment 10:51 made a longtime ago that Islam. 10:54 We need to be careful because this is-- 10:55 It's certainly not the charter of this program 10:58 to attack any religion but at the moment 11:01 there's no question Islam has--is undergoing 11:04 some social stresses to put it mildly. 11:07 And someone made a comment 11:09 that Islam needs a reformation like that 11:13 took place in Christianity, not so much. 11:16 But why? 11:17 Well, from a historic point of view, 11:20 you know doctrinal. Okay. 11:21 I mean, the protestant reformation, 11:24 you and I, of course we're protestants 11:26 and we know what was at stake 11:27 and that was a biblical viewpoint of salvation 11:29 and how we relate to God and so on. 11:32 But I think Islam an ancient religion 11:36 and tied to the culture of the place 11:39 and really accepting some--with Sharia law, 11:42 some rather rigorous norms of a medieval society 11:46 has really not shifted to adapt to the 21st century, 11:52 that's where it builds down to. 11:53 It's really dragging a lot of baggage with it 11:56 and the reformation cut the Christian church lose 11:59 or at least the protestant part of that. 12:01 It cut them loose from a medieval religious mindset. 12:04 But I don't think it's any accident 12:06 that along with the reformation 12:08 came the enlightenment and social 12:10 and scientific advances and so on. 12:12 And also at a great cost. 12:14 I mean there were a lot of things happening 12:16 along the way, absolutely, I'm not sure-- 12:18 And the cost to the Islamic world is very high. 12:20 I mean, these short-term seem positive, 12:23 but I mean, if you look at the pictures 12:24 in Benghazi and Tripoli-- No. 12:30 I mean, it's like World War III. 12:32 I mean its total devastation. This is an incredible cost. 12:36 It'll be--even with an ideal government, 12:37 it'll be a generation before life approaches 12:41 the normalcy that we have here. 12:43 Yeah, I think you're right. 12:44 But it's-- There are some elements 12:46 that probably do need to be changed. 12:47 Well, I'm just not sure 12:48 if it would stand such a settlement of shift-- 12:50 No, and it's not our right to demand 12:51 what they must be. Right. 12:53 But as hopeful onlookers, I think you and I agreed 12:57 and many of our viewers, 13:00 the real change will depend on a sea 13:03 change in the thinking of the population. 13:04 Not on another structure, other being imposed 13:08 or even accepted by them. I agree. 13:11 So you know, we need to pray that 13:13 I-- I put it on a purely spiritual level. 13:15 I think this is a time of change of opportunity 13:18 and we would hope that the spirit of God 13:20 would move upon hearts in whole regions 13:23 to have them open to a true 13:26 and honest search for spirituality, 13:27 which is what all religion is about, right? 13:29 Now come-- Yes. 13:30 You know, it's not some edict from either, 13:33 a Vatican or from a Qum or the Holy Cities. 13:36 You know that I better specify 'cause I do know, 13:38 Qum is the holy city in Iran. Right. 13:42 But you know, there can be some Orthodox religious center 13:44 but you and I are not saved 13:46 by what comes down from the hierarchy 13:49 or whatever religion we belong to. 13:51 And a true religion I think is a searching for the divine 13:55 and it's a personal quest. 13:56 And how that will integrate 13:58 with these political developments 14:00 in the Middle East, I don't think, see it obvious, 14:02 but the answer is not by some new contour 14:05 or correlation of revolutionary factions. 14:09 I'm not very confident 14:10 that this is even close to the endpoint yet. 14:15 I don't know what you remember of your history. 14:18 But does it struck you-- In fact, maybe 14:21 I better wait till the break. Come to think of it. 14:23 Before I really get into another monologue, 14:26 let's take a break. 14:27 We'll be back shortly to continue our discussion 14:30 of what really is happening in the Arab Spring 14:33 and the desire people have for freedom 14:37 and a deeper religious freedom. 14:47 One hundred years a long time to do anything, 14:51 much less publish a magazine, but this year "Liberty," 14:55 the Seventh-day Adventist voice of religious freedom 14:57 celebrates 100 years of doing 15:00 what it does best, collecting, analyzing, 15:03 and reporting the ebb and flow 15:05 of religious expression around the world. 15:07 Issue after issue, Liberty has taken 15:10 on the tough assignments. 15:11 Tracking down threats to religious freedom 15:13 and exposing the work of the devil 15:15 in every corner of the globe. 15:17 Governmental interference, personal attacks, 15:20 corporate assaults, even religious freedom issues 15:23 sequestered within the church community itself 15:25 have been clearly and honestly exposed. 15:28 Liberty exists for one purpose to help God's people 15:32 maintain that all important separation of church 15:35 and state while recognizing 15:36 the dangers inherent in such a struggle. 15:39 During the past century, 15:41 Liberty has experienced challenges of its own, 15:43 but it remains on the job. 15:45 Thanks to the inspired leadership 15:47 of a long line of dedicated Adventist editors, 15:50 three of whom represent almost half of the publications' 15:52 existence and the foresight of a little woman 15:55 from New England. 15:56 One hundred years of struggle, 100 years of victories, 16:01 religious freedom isn't just about political machines 16:04 and cultural prejudices. 16:06 It's about people fighting for the right to serve the God 16:10 they love as their hearts and the Holy Spirit dictate. 16:14 Thanks to the prayers and generous support 16:16 of Seventh-day Adventists everywhere. 16:18 Liberty will continue to accomplish 16:20 its work of providing timely information, 16:22 spirit filled inspiration, 16:24 and heaven sent encouragement to all 16:27 who long to live and work in a world 16:30 bound together by the God 16:31 ordained bonds of religious freedom. 16:45 Welcome back to Liberty Insider. 16:47 Before the break with guest, Dwayne Leslie, 16:49 I was talking about among other things 16:52 but we were at the point of discussing the Arab Spring. 16:55 And what that really might mean for religious freedom. 16:58 And you know, it's very hard to know-- Right. 17:01 Obviously, and you're a little loath 17:02 as I should be perhaps to sort of jumping 17:04 and prognosticate but I think 17:06 when we're expecting great things 17:10 we should allow some reality, 17:12 and this is what I was trying to explain. 17:14 The reality of the social and religious situation 17:17 in those countries is that 17:19 it's probably not going to jump instantly 17:21 from a despotic restrictive regime to, 17:24 you know, western constitutional democracy 17:28 where everyone is free 17:30 to practice their faith as they want. 17:32 Again, you have to remember people have been living 17:34 in a fairly oppressive society 17:37 for most of their lives or in many cases generations. 17:40 And so now this is vacuum and power who steps into that. 17:43 And often times many people that step into that power 17:46 take on the same abuses 17:49 that they've seen emulated in prior history. 17:51 Well, I'm-- I can't directly remember 17:55 when he came to power but I can remember 17:57 the early days of Gaddafi 17:58 and he was the knight on the shining horse, 18:02 an idealists certainly. 18:04 He overcame corrupt King Idris of Libya. 18:10 And so, you know, it had a good beginning. 18:12 And so similarly, this faction they've taken over from-- 18:17 we don't quite understand who they are. 18:18 We know this is Islamic party, 18:19 this is communists, this is socialists, 18:21 and you know, the whole group. 18:23 But it's a correlation, that's apart from apparently 18:27 executing one of the leaders at the midpoint. 18:29 I don't think it's reasonable to assume 18:31 that they're automatically going to become democratic. 18:36 No, that's right. 18:37 I think--really give some false signs here now, 18:43 but the there's a scientific law of entropy. 18:47 And I think unless people of goodwill and good spirit, 18:51 and God's positive spirit works upon people 18:55 we are in a human condition 18:56 that is subject the law of entropy-- Right. 18:59 In politics and human behavior. 19:01 And without a concerted effort contrary it will end up, 19:04 it will tend toward a bad outcome. Right. 19:06 And you know, we've started 19:08 getting the biblical statement, 19:10 you know, "Sow to the wind and reap the whirlwind." 19:13 Out of a war, the killing and the murder, 19:15 and the social dislocation, 19:17 good things don't automatically come. 19:20 Well, to follow up on that point, 19:22 one of the things in my office 19:23 we've been very active in is given all the things 19:25 that are going on in the Middle East 19:27 there's been legislation that's been presented 19:29 into the congress to create a special envoy 19:33 for the protection of religious minorities 19:36 in the Middle East and South Central Asia. 19:37 It's very good-- And so, I've worked with a group 19:40 of other religious leaders to promote for with this passage 19:45 or advocate for this passage 19:47 and we think that there's a pretty significant support 19:50 for this and so, we anticipate this 19:52 going in to law fairly soon. That's good. 19:55 You know at one level, you know, 19:57 citizens of the United States tend to think 19:59 that they're ignored in the Middle East 20:02 and certainly an alliance with Israel 20:04 which I'm not saying is wrong whatsoever 20:06 but that's poisoned 20:08 some relations with the Arab States. 20:10 But I think at the end of the day 20:12 in the Middle East as in much of the world, 20:15 the common people look to the United States, 20:18 not necessarily with always with envy 20:20 or wanting to emulate it, but they look to the United States 20:22 to sort of set a turn for us to give a signal. Right. 20:25 And what you said is very good 20:28 because if the United States is showing that 20:30 it has an overt interest in the state of religious liberty 20:33 in that part of the world as they reformulate 20:35 their governments I think it will have a potential 20:38 of a very good or better outcome. 20:40 Because the thought is that, having somebody 20:42 representing the United States Government 20:44 who is on the ground, who is talking with 20:46 the correlation governments 20:47 that are forming-- That's good. 20:48 And say, "Here are some basic principles that are important. 20:51 Here are things that you should consider 20:52 as you're writing the new constitutions." 20:54 Those are all things that are vital 20:56 to promoting religious freedom. Absolutely. 20:59 And again, as we said many times, 21:01 you can't coerce on religious issues. 21:03 So it would be improper even if the US had to do so. 21:07 To say, "You must have 21:09 separation of church and state. 21:10 You must treat this group a certain way." 21:13 But you're gonna have competing voices 21:15 because anytime you're starting from scratch 21:17 various interested parties are gonna 21:19 try to pursue their own agendas. 21:21 And I think that with the United States 21:24 being a superpower we should be hopefully 21:26 at a table to-- Absolutely. 21:28 Because obviously, we've a long term interest 21:30 in the stability in that region. 21:32 But you said something and I don't challenge using it 21:36 but it gives me an angle. 21:38 We say this glibly 21:40 the United States is the superpower, 21:41 which it is, has been and still is, 21:44 and how long it will remain we don't know. 21:46 But I do think the United States 21:48 has misjudged its power somewhat-- 21:51 We have a goodly number of nuclear weapons, 21:56 probably enough to lay waste to the whole world, 21:59 but I don't really believe that the United States' 22:02 true power in the world 22:03 has hinged down on that military mart. 22:06 I just don't think so. 22:08 No, but I think in, particularly in this instance 22:11 where you don't wanna come in as the superpower, 22:13 but you wanna come in and saying, 22:14 "You know, we have experience. 22:16 We have a framework that you can use." 22:19 And so I think the diplomatic 22:23 pursuit is a stronger approach-- 22:25 Yeah, but I'm really, you know, backdoor way, 22:27 trying to backup what you're saying. 22:28 We have incredible influence 22:30 but it isn't really because we're a superpower. 22:33 We're a super creation. 22:38 You know, the Bible, if you interpret Daniel in that way. 22:42 Isn't it Daniel? I better get my prophecy? 22:45 But anyhow, it talks about-- No, it's Revelation. 22:49 But anyhow there's an expectation 22:51 that this land is created out of nothing a new, new country. 22:56 And I think that is rather unique 22:57 even though there's been immigration 22:58 and settlement and colonization 23:01 but of a major power to sort of be made up 23:04 from people from all over the world. 23:06 Everybody has a bit of a stake in the United States 23:09 that I think comes closer to its real power. 23:12 The fact that there's a buoyant from population 23:14 they've representation there. It's a new philosophy. 23:19 It's not religious in spite of what wishful thinking 23:22 goes on with the religious right, 23:23 but it had a religious tinge 23:25 to very secular ideas of freedom 23:28 and self-determination, and it's a grand experiment 23:31 that I think most countries will pay attention 23:33 to even if they reject it. 23:34 They can't ignore it. Right. 23:36 And so when the United States takes the time 23:39 to as you're suggesting here with this, 23:42 special envoy to speak of this value. 23:44 That's the superpower that we have not the fact that, 23:48 you know, there's predators cruising over our head 23:50 or wherever I think that's counterproductive 23:52 to real projection of faith. Right. 23:53 But it's the kind of power 23:55 that doesn't always get reported. 23:56 People don't always-- No, that's true. 23:58 And most people don't even necessarily 23:59 know about this position but I think that, 24:01 in terms of the impact because especially 24:05 when there is chaos and commotion, 24:07 you wanna be the quiet voice 24:08 that is pulling groups together, 24:10 working with correlations, giving them tangible tools 24:13 and examples to work from. That to me is true diplomacy. 24:17 Absolutely, in fact, out of the way 24:19 popped into my mind, but I remember just before the, 24:22 I think it was just before the '73 oil crisis. 24:27 You know, there was lots of goings-on 24:28 behind the scenes with Russia and the Middle East president 24:31 and there was a fellow who was long since dead 24:33 Arnold Hammer. 24:34 Do you remember that name? Oh, sure, yeah. 24:35 Now he was basically an informal ambassador 24:38 for US interest and hardly anybody heard about him 24:41 but he was talking face-to-face-- Right. 24:43 With the Soviet leadership and others in the Middle East 24:46 and I'm positive for good or real, 24:48 I mean, I'm not here to defend what he did 24:50 but I'm positive for good or real 24:51 he had a huge influence 24:53 hardly known by the adverse personnel. 24:56 And so the United States in these not much heralded things 25:01 like the envoys can make a huge difference. 25:05 And so--and there are other envoys 25:07 but I think particularly with 25:08 what's going on in the Middle East 25:09 this is a really unique opportunity. 25:11 And how do you think this envoy would interact with, 25:16 I believe, is commission still exist, 25:18 Tony Blair as a UN envoy for religious affairs, wasn't he? 25:24 Well, I think the difference would be, 25:25 I think that would be to the United Nations 25:28 and this would be actually be from the State Department. 25:30 How is the State Department reporting directly 25:32 to Secretary of State and so as opposed to being 25:36 in the U.N. where many people debate 25:39 the actual effectiveness of that organization, 25:42 this person would be actually representing the US Government 25:45 to be able to travel to these countries 25:47 and speak with the authority. 25:50 Well, I'm trying to connect some dust 25:51 because it seems to me, well, they may not 25:54 all have the same agenda that we're seeing a phenomenon, 25:58 with the UN as an international body 26:01 is still fit to designate someone. 26:05 Specifically for religious affairs in the Middle East 26:09 I think it was with Tony Blair. 26:11 Here the US is looking for special envoy 26:14 basically for religion. 26:15 We've spoken another time about Canada. Right. 26:18 A very special department of religious freedom 26:22 for minorities quite above from, 26:23 apart from just normal government entities. 26:26 So there's something going on, isn't it? 26:28 Something-- No, I think there definitely is 26:29 something going on because what's really important again 26:32 is we're seeing various interest groups 26:34 coming together, various governments 26:36 for the promotion of religious freedom 26:38 and I'd like to see other international bodies 26:41 come together for that purpose 26:43 and I think the net result will be very positive. 26:47 Something sobering about living 26:49 through revolutionary times. 26:53 Maybe some people haven't thought of it that way 26:55 but when I look at the TV footage 26:58 of Mohammed Gaddafi being dragged out of a culvert 27:02 and ending up as a bloody corpse 27:05 I know that these are revolutionary times. 27:08 When I look at the courtroom scene 27:11 where the ruler of Egypt, Hosni Mubarak lying in a bed 27:17 is on trial for his life. 27:18 I know these are revolutionary times. 27:22 Unfortunately when I hear news that an opening salvo 27:26 of those revolutionary times in Egypt and a final capstone 27:31 if you'd like to recent events where both violence 27:35 against captive Christians I know that 27:38 these are the worst of revolutionary times. 27:41 We need to be careful that we don't see 27:44 these dark, dangerous times as wonderful developments. 27:49 Freedom may come out of them. 27:51 Religious liberty maybe protected 27:53 but not unless we recognize the people of faith, 27:57 people of goodwill need to interject themselves 27:59 into these times of changing dynamic. 28:05 This is Lincoln Steed for "Liberty Insider." |
Revised 2014-12-17