Welcome to the
"Liberty Insider."
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This is the program that
brings you up-to-date news,
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views and discussion on
religious liberty, events
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and
developments around the world
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and of course in North America.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest on the
program is Dwayne Leslie.
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Welcome, Dwayne.
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Thank you,
Lincoln, glad to be here.
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Dwayne, you are
the legislative liaison
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for the
Seventh-day Adventist Church--
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That's correct. To Washington.
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I wanna start the
discussion by bringing up a name
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that many of us
remember with some--
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Well, nostalgia
is the wrong word
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but we feel--
Makes me feel heavy
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when I think about
the minister of religion
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in Pakistan.
Bhatti was his name.
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He was
assassinated not too long ago
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among other reason
because he stood out
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for the rights of
religious minorities
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in that
overwhelmingly Islamic country.
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But there's a lot of intolerance
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even of Islamic
minorities there.
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But he was a Christian.
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A government
minister in an overwhelmingly
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and Islamic country, a Christian
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and because of his
views he was assassinated.
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The reason I'm
bringing this up is
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I've been very
encouraged to hear that Canada
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is about to establish an
office of religious freedom
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particularly looking at
the rights of minorities.
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And they said the
death of Bhatti in effect,
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before he died,
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his encouragement as the reason
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why they're establishing this.
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Well, I'm very
pleased to see this
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because one they've
looked at the US model here
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and one of the tools
they're looking at is to base it
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somewhat on
what's going on here.
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But they're
definitely influenced
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by international
events and as we look at
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what's happening
with anti-religion laws
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all throughout the world
its very good to see a country
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like Canada to say,
they're going to affirmatively
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try to protect the
rights of religious minorities.
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Yeah, when I first
read this, I thought,
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well, this is smacks of
cheap political promises.
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Prime Minister
Harper-- When--then facing
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a reelection campaign said that,
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you know, if we're elected
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we will establish
this office, fine.
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But I'm very happy that
now that he is reelected.
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He has repeated that comment.
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More than a
comment he has repeated it
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in front of witnesses
and the foreign minister
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has held consultations
with interested parties
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about how to set it up
so they're acting on this.
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And it's been
comforting to see that
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because I know that he's
come to the United States
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and he's met with
Ambassador-at-Large
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for Religious
Freedom, Suzan Johnson Cook.
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They've had extensive
discussions like you said
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he's had consultations
with other groups in Canada.
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So it sounds like they've
taken the right approach.
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They're listening.
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They're looking to see
what works. What doesn't.
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So when they
form their own office
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and hopefully it'll be
a good model of success.
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Now I'll ask you a question.
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I don't know the
answer of this myself.
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Is this directly funded
by the Canadian Government?
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Who--where is the funding
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coming from this,
for this, do you know?
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Well, I believe
this will be an actual
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newly created
governmental entity.
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So it'll be I believe under
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the underside of
the foreign minister
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similar to the
office here in United States
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which is the under
the Secretary of State.
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I've seen some news reports
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beside there is an
involvement with the Aga Khan
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and that just sort
of got me interested.
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But this is definitely
a government initiative
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from Canada. Right.
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And Canada has got a good
record on religious freedom.
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Different model
in the United States
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and its worth
reminding our US viewers
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that while the US
constitution has an admirable
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protection of religion
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and a model of
separation of church and state,
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while Canada doesn't have that
same separation as viewpoint,
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it's had a good
record of protecting
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religious freedom. Right.
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I think the challenge
that they will have is
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given the
political situation up there
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I think some
people are viewing this
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with a little bit of skepticism.
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Even though they're
moving forward with it
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or you know, or some minority
groups cannot be protected
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and that others but it
will--it will be remain,
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it remain to be seen how
this will actually go together--
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Yeah, you know in
previous discussion,
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this is not the first program
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you and I've done together.
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I nearly quoted
Jojo was animal farm.
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You know we need
to be very careful
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when we talk about
protecting religion
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and religious
rights of all the spectrum.
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That we don't fall into the--
you know all animals are equal
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but some animals are
more equal than others.
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Doesn't mean that you and I
as a particular faith viewpoint
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automatically equate
other beliefs with us
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but we need to equate
the rights of everybody
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on a level it has
that they all have dignity
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and equal right to exist.
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It will be nice as the
US won't be standing alone
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in terms of not just
looking at the rights
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within our respective countries
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but to actually
go out proactively
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and looking out what's going on.
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So they can--not only
with the United States
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but Canada will be able
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to then
interject into situations.
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Yeah. Use their influences.
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And I think Canada
has had a good image.
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But there's no question but,
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is by my
analysis that on occasions
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Canada is a smaller country
so it sat on the sidelines.
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Well, the US maybe as
tilted against some big issue
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but this is a
greater show of solidarity
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with those
freedom loving countries
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that value
religious freedom. Absolutely.
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And I think Canada
by its ready acceptance
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of some of these
recent minorities
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has greater
credibility in some ways
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with the US than the US I think.
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Right because-- In
the international forum.
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In some ways they're viewed at--
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As being a bit
more objective probably.
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Yeah, in the real world.
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I mean US for better or worse
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has erected some
barrier since 9/11. Right.
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And Canada has been very open,
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openhearted about
accepting the dissidents.
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And that's why I
think we're very optimistic
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to see 'cause while its,
it maybe some of their model
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because they
don't have the history
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that the United States has.
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They have a chance to I think
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really make some
inroads into this area
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that the United States can't do.
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It's crossed my mind many,
many times on this program.
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When we talk
about religious freedom
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it's wonderfully positive.
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Nearly always when we discuss
how it works in the world
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we're talking about the negative
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because you almost define it
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by the breach, don't you? Right.
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And I don't really
know how to get around that
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except to reiterate that
living in the United States
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I happen to be an Australian.
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Born in Australia but
you know I've lived longer.
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As I told a government worker
the other day at Washington.
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When they are
questioning my origins.
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I said I've lived longer
in this country than you have.
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He looked like he
was in his mid 30s.
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But you know, living
in the United States,
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you know, we have
wonderful religious freedom.
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There is things around the edge
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that you need to guard
and it may still go wrong
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at some future
point but right now
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we have a good
religious liberty situation.
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Certainly very
good in Australia.
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Very good in Canada.
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And somehow we
need to help people
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keep that in mind
that all is not lost.
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Yeah, by any
means isn't? No, no.
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Even though globally I
think the tide is not moving
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in the right direction.
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No, I, again, I think you're--
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I agree with you
completely on that.
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Yeah, you're gonna make
me force the discussion,
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now I'm teasing you but--we,
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we really need
to debate on things.
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Now where is it
going wrong and why?
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That's what we need
to-- The religious freedom?
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Yeah, I mean we've
accepted this very good case
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that it's not all lost.
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But there are
trends moving against this,
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like the Arab
Springs, for example. Sure.
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Has been a lot of--was a
few months ago wonderful,
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optimistic, positive,
wishful thinking about that.
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You know, I read
many of the news,
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journals and newspapers
and I can't fault them
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for wanting to expect the best
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but the logic
wasn't with them. Right.
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In my view, these upheavals
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overdue as they were against
real despotism in some cases,
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that underlying
dynamic hardly was reassuring
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and it likely was going to
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go to further
religious intolerance.
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No, and I think a
classic example is,
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if you look at
what's going on in Egypt
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with the persecution
of the Christians there.
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Just a days ago
was that-- Right, no.
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An overt attack
on-- Captive Christians.
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The captive Christians,
yeah, and so what that shows you
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is that there are
still problems going on.
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And there are still intolerance
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or still
persecution and so even though
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there are signs that we're
moving in the right direction
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but we still have
pretty serious problems.
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Yeah, as you look at what's
happened in the Middle East,
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in the Arab Spring, you
know, what's that Tunisia,
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Libya, Egypt, Syria
is an ongoing question.
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Do you think any
of them will end up?
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and what approximates
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the liberal
democratic structure?
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I'm not optimistic personally
but I'm still hopeful.
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We have to, but, you know,
hope shouldn't die that easy
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but uninformed hope, you know,
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we've got to be realist I think.
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And what I think
is the real battle
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and nobody saying this is, yes,
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they have had structural
changes that were needed
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because many of them
were under despotic systems.
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Even if they
weren't daily despotism
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they were structures
that were fed by graft
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and bribery and
special interests,
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sounds like some of the
western governments. No.
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But you know, they
were not ideal governments,
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and now they're
throwing that off
00:10:04.50\00:10:06.07
but we need to
think for a minute.
00:10:06.08\00:10:08.03
Why would it suddenly turn
00:10:08.04\00:10:09.52
into liberal democratic system?
00:10:09.53\00:10:12.08
Why would they suddenly be
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the free granting of
religious rights to everyone?
00:10:14.83\00:10:16.96
If the society, if
in the neighborhood,
00:10:16.97\00:10:19.64
if in, you know, the group
that go to the local mosque,
00:10:19.65\00:10:23.82
their views of life
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and religion
are very constricted
00:10:25.50\00:10:29.23
and prejudice and
at times even violent.
00:10:29.24\00:10:31.60
Because even with the
change that's happened,
00:10:31.61\00:10:34.03
but yourself
look at-- Some people.
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Oh, this is the same people
00:10:35.44\00:10:36.44
who grew up in
that environment-- Yeah.
00:10:36.45\00:10:38.87
And so when there is
a vacuum what happens?
00:10:38.88\00:10:41.54
People tend to fall
back to what they know.
00:10:41.55\00:10:43.61
And so you
replace one power group
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with another power
group and overtime,
00:10:45.84\00:10:48.43
many of the same abuses
may continue to take place.
00:10:48.44\00:10:50.69
Yeah, you know,
there was a comment
00:10:50.70\00:10:51.72
made a longtime ago that Islam.
00:10:51.73\00:10:54.20
We need to be
careful because this is--
00:10:54.21\00:10:55.55
It's certainly not the
charter of this program
00:10:55.56\00:10:58.64
to attack any
religion but at the moment
00:10:58.65\00:11:01.34
there's no question
Islam has--is undergoing
00:11:01.35\00:11:04.83
some social
stresses to put it mildly.
00:11:04.84\00:11:07.82
And someone made a comment
00:11:07.83\00:11:09.34
that Islam needs a
reformation like that
00:11:09.35\00:11:12.99
took place in
Christianity, not so much.
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But why?
00:11:16.38\00:11:17.74
Well, from a
historic point of view,
00:11:17.75\00:11:20.51
you know doctrinal. Okay.
00:11:20.52\00:11:21.65
I mean, the
protestant reformation,
00:11:21.66\00:11:24.14
you and I, of
course we're protestants
00:11:24.15\00:11:26.12
and we know what was at stake
00:11:26.13\00:11:27.28
and that was a
biblical viewpoint of salvation
00:11:27.29\00:11:29.35
and how we
relate to God and so on.
00:11:29.36\00:11:32.04
But I think Islam
an ancient religion
00:11:32.05\00:11:36.85
and tied to the
culture of the place
00:11:36.86\00:11:39.47
and really accepting
some--with Sharia law,
00:11:39.48\00:11:42.20
some rather rigorous
norms of a medieval society
00:11:42.21\00:11:46.15
has really not shifted to
adapt to the 21st century,
00:11:46.16\00:11:52.29
that's where it builds down to.
00:11:52.30\00:11:53.83
It's really dragging
a lot of baggage with it
00:11:53.84\00:11:56.37
and the reformation cut
the Christian church lose
00:11:56.38\00:11:59.53
or at least the
protestant part of that.
00:11:59.54\00:12:01.80
It cut them loose from a
medieval religious mindset.
00:12:01.81\00:12:04.67
But I don't
think it's any accident
00:12:04.68\00:12:06.72
that along with the reformation
00:12:06.73\00:12:08.59
came the
enlightenment and social
00:12:08.60\00:12:10.66
and scientific
advances and so on.
00:12:10.67\00:12:12.74
And also at a great cost.
00:12:12.75\00:12:14.75
I mean there were a
lot of things happening
00:12:14.76\00:12:16.24
along the way,
absolutely, I'm not sure--
00:12:16.25\00:12:18.14
And the cost to the
Islamic world is very high.
00:12:18.15\00:12:20.62
I mean, these
short-term seem positive,
00:12:20.63\00:12:23.50
but I mean, if you
look at the pictures
00:12:23.51\00:12:24.70
in Benghazi and Tripoli-- No.
00:12:24.71\00:12:30.85
I mean, it's like World War III.
00:12:30.86\00:12:32.93
I mean its total devastation.
This is an incredible cost.
00:12:32.94\00:12:36.00
It'll be--even with
an ideal government,
00:12:36.01\00:12:37.94
it'll be a generation
before life approaches
00:12:37.95\00:12:40.97
the normalcy that we have here.
00:12:40.98\00:12:43.25
Yeah, I think you're right.
00:12:43.26\00:12:44.31
But it's-- There
are some elements
00:12:44.32\00:12:46.59
that probably do
need to be changed.
00:12:46.60\00:12:47.68
Well, I'm just not sure
00:12:47.69\00:12:48.66
if it would stand such
a settlement of shift--
00:12:48.67\00:12:50.24
No, and it's not
our right to demand
00:12:50.25\00:12:51.68
what they must be. Right.
00:12:51.69\00:12:53.12
But as hopeful onlookers,
I think you and I agreed
00:12:53.13\00:12:57.80
and many of our viewers,
00:12:57.81\00:12:59.98
the real change
will depend on a sea
00:12:59.99\00:13:03.00
change in the
thinking of the population.
00:13:03.01\00:13:04.95
Not on another
structure, other being imposed
00:13:04.96\00:13:08.38
or even accepted
by them. I agree.
00:13:08.39\00:13:11.17
So you know, we
need to pray that
00:13:11.18\00:13:13.04
I-- I put it on a
purely spiritual level.
00:13:13.05\00:13:15.50
I think this is a time
of change of opportunity
00:13:15.51\00:13:18.26
and we would hope
that the spirit of God
00:13:18.27\00:13:20.51
would move upon
hearts in whole regions
00:13:20.52\00:13:23.31
to have them open to a true
00:13:23.32\00:13:26.06
and honest
search for spirituality,
00:13:26.07\00:13:27.82
which is what all
religion is about, right?
00:13:27.83\00:13:29.45
Now come-- Yes.
00:13:29.46\00:13:30.55
You know, it's not
some edict from either,
00:13:30.56\00:13:33.04
a Vatican or from a
Qum or the Holy Cities.
00:13:33.05\00:13:36.34
You know that I better
specify 'cause I do know,
00:13:36.35\00:13:38.88
Qum is the holy
city in Iran. Right.
00:13:38.89\00:13:42.13
But you know, there can be
some Orthodox religious center
00:13:42.14\00:13:44.91
but you and I are not saved
00:13:44.92\00:13:46.55
by what comes
down from the hierarchy
00:13:46.56\00:13:49.07
or whatever
religion we belong to.
00:13:49.08\00:13:51.15
And a true religion I think
is a searching for the divine
00:13:51.16\00:13:55.09
and it's a personal quest.
00:13:55.10\00:13:56.88
And how that will integrate
00:13:56.89\00:13:58.85
with these
political developments
00:13:58.86\00:14:00.14
in the Middle East, I
don't think, see it obvious,
00:14:00.15\00:14:02.36
but the answer is
not by some new contour
00:14:02.37\00:14:05.58
or correlation of
revolutionary factions.
00:14:05.59\00:14:09.29
I'm not very confident
00:14:09.30\00:14:10.44
that this is even
close to the endpoint yet.
00:14:10.45\00:14:15.21
I don't know what you
remember of your history.
00:14:15.22\00:14:18.79
But does it struck
you-- In fact, maybe
00:14:18.80\00:14:21.82
I better wait till the
break. Come to think of it.
00:14:21.83\00:14:23.93
Before I really get
into another monologue,
00:14:23.94\00:14:26.07
let's take a break.
00:14:26.08\00:14:27.29
We'll be back shortly
to continue our discussion
00:14:27.30\00:14:30.87
of what really is
happening in the Arab Spring
00:14:30.88\00:14:33.60
and the desire
people have for freedom
00:14:33.61\00:14:37.00
and a deeper religious freedom.
00:14:37.01\00:14:38.53
One hundred years a
long time to do anything,
00:14:47.37\00:14:51.33
much less publish a magazine,
but this year "Liberty,"
00:14:51.34\00:14:55.07
the Seventh-day Adventist
voice of religious freedom
00:14:55.08\00:14:57.91
celebrates 100 years of doing
00:14:57.92\00:15:00.33
what it does best,
collecting, analyzing,
00:15:00.34\00:15:03.21
and reporting the ebb and flow
00:15:03.22\00:15:05.09
of religious
expression around the world.
00:15:05.10\00:15:07.70
Issue after
issue, Liberty has taken
00:15:07.71\00:15:10.39
on the tough assignments.
00:15:10.40\00:15:11.81
Tracking down
threats to religious freedom
00:15:11.82\00:15:13.83
and exposing the
work of the devil
00:15:13.84\00:15:15.47
in every corner of the globe.
00:15:15.48\00:15:17.64
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:15:17.65\00:15:20.33
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom issues
00:15:20.34\00:15:23.11
sequestered within the
church community itself
00:15:23.12\00:15:25.52
have been clearly
and honestly exposed.
00:15:25.53\00:15:28.46
Liberty exists for one
purpose to help God's people
00:15:28.47\00:15:32.07
maintain that all
important separation of church
00:15:32.08\00:15:35.03
and state while recognizing
00:15:35.04\00:15:36.81
the dangers
inherent in such a struggle.
00:15:36.82\00:15:39.76
During the past century,
00:15:39.77\00:15:41.12
Liberty has experienced
challenges of its own,
00:15:41.13\00:15:43.76
but it remains on the job.
00:15:43.77\00:15:45.94
Thanks to the
inspired leadership
00:15:45.95\00:15:47.64
of a long line of
dedicated Adventist editors,
00:15:47.65\00:15:50.24
three of whom represent
almost half of the publications'
00:15:50.25\00:15:52.76
existence and the
foresight of a little woman
00:15:52.77\00:15:55.78
from New England.
00:15:55.79\00:15:56.96
One hundred years of struggle,
100 years of victories,
00:15:56.97\00:16:01.30
religious freedom isn't
just about political machines
00:16:01.31\00:16:04.33
and cultural prejudices.
00:16:04.34\00:16:06.16
It's about people fighting
for the right to serve the God
00:16:06.17\00:16:10.13
they love as their hearts
and the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:16:10.14\00:16:14.33
Thanks to the
prayers and generous support
00:16:14.34\00:16:16.37
of Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere.
00:16:16.38\00:16:18.74
Liberty will
continue to accomplish
00:16:18.75\00:16:20.70
its work of
providing timely information,
00:16:20.71\00:16:22.87
spirit filled inspiration,
00:16:22.88\00:16:24.55
and heaven sent
encouragement to all
00:16:24.56\00:16:27.00
who long to live
and work in a world
00:16:27.01\00:16:30.22
bound together by the God
00:16:30.23\00:16:31.81
ordained bonds of
religious freedom.
00:16:31.82\00:16:34.92
Welcome back to Liberty Insider.
00:16:45.42\00:16:47.46
Before the break
with guest, Dwayne Leslie,
00:16:47.47\00:16:49.79
I was talking
about among other things
00:16:49.80\00:16:52.04
but we were at the point
of discussing the Arab Spring.
00:16:52.05\00:16:55.29
And what that really might
mean for religious freedom.
00:16:55.30\00:16:58.53
And you know, it's
very hard to know-- Right.
00:16:58.54\00:17:00.98
Obviously, and
you're a little loath
00:17:00.99\00:17:02.59
as I should be
perhaps to sort of jumping
00:17:02.60\00:17:04.93
and prognosticate but I think
00:17:04.94\00:17:06.95
when we're
expecting great things
00:17:06.96\00:17:10.59
we should allow some reality,
00:17:10.60\00:17:12.40
and this is what I
was trying to explain.
00:17:12.41\00:17:14.50
The reality of the
social and religious situation
00:17:14.51\00:17:17.48
in those countries is that
00:17:17.49\00:17:19.19
it's probably not
going to jump instantly
00:17:19.20\00:17:21.12
from a despotic
restrictive regime to,
00:17:21.13\00:17:24.39
you know, western
constitutional democracy
00:17:24.40\00:17:28.92
where everyone is free
00:17:28.93\00:17:30.86
to practice their
faith as they want.
00:17:30.87\00:17:32.60
Again, you have to
remember people have been living
00:17:32.61\00:17:34.66
in a fairly oppressive society
00:17:34.67\00:17:37.05
for most of their lives
or in many cases generations.
00:17:37.06\00:17:40.21
And so now this is vacuum
and power who steps into that.
00:17:40.22\00:17:43.89
And often times many
people that step into that power
00:17:43.90\00:17:46.94
take on the same abuses
00:17:46.95\00:17:49.37
that they've seen
emulated in prior history.
00:17:49.38\00:17:51.87
Well, I'm-- I
can't directly remember
00:17:51.88\00:17:55.49
when he came to
power but I can remember
00:17:55.50\00:17:57.14
the early days of Gaddafi
00:17:57.15\00:17:58.45
and he was the
knight on the shining horse,
00:17:58.46\00:18:02.74
an idealists certainly.
00:18:02.75\00:18:04.64
He overcame corrupt
King Idris of Libya.
00:18:04.65\00:18:10.81
And so, you know, it
had a good beginning.
00:18:10.82\00:18:12.82
And so similarly, this faction
they've taken over from--
00:18:12.83\00:18:17.12
we don't quite
understand who they are.
00:18:17.13\00:18:18.59
We know this is Islamic party,
00:18:18.60\00:18:19.89
this is
communists, this is socialists,
00:18:19.90\00:18:21.86
and you know, the whole group.
00:18:21.87\00:18:23.62
But it's a correlation,
that's apart from apparently
00:18:23.63\00:18:27.27
executing one of the
leaders at the midpoint.
00:18:27.28\00:18:29.94
I don't think it's
reasonable to assume
00:18:29.95\00:18:31.76
that they're automatically
going to become democratic.
00:18:31.77\00:18:36.22
No, that's right.
00:18:36.23\00:18:37.23
I think--really give
some false signs here now,
00:18:37.24\00:18:43.55
but the there's a
scientific law of entropy.
00:18:43.56\00:18:47.87
And I think unless people
of goodwill and good spirit,
00:18:47.88\00:18:51.94
and God's positive
spirit works upon people
00:18:51.95\00:18:55.26
we are in a human condition
00:18:55.27\00:18:56.69
that is subject the
law of entropy-- Right.
00:18:56.70\00:18:58.99
In politics and human behavior.
00:18:59.00\00:19:01.07
And without a concerted
effort contrary it will end up,
00:19:01.08\00:19:04.60
it will tend toward
a bad outcome. Right.
00:19:04.61\00:19:06.74
And you know, we've started
00:19:06.75\00:19:08.11
getting the biblical statement,
00:19:08.12\00:19:10.62
you know, "Sow to the
wind and reap the whirlwind."
00:19:10.63\00:19:13.61
Out of a war, the
killing and the murder,
00:19:13.62\00:19:15.82
and the social dislocation,
00:19:15.83\00:19:17.60
good things don't
automatically come.
00:19:17.61\00:19:20.34
Well, to follow
up on that point,
00:19:20.35\00:19:22.02
one of the things in my office
00:19:22.03\00:19:23.35
we've been very active
in is given all the things
00:19:23.36\00:19:25.83
that are going on
in the Middle East
00:19:25.84\00:19:27.59
there's been legislation
that's been presented
00:19:27.60\00:19:29.83
into the congress to
create a special envoy
00:19:29.84\00:19:33.84
for the protection
of religious minorities
00:19:33.85\00:19:35.98
in the Middle East
and South Central Asia.
00:19:35.99\00:19:37.63
It's very good-- And
so, I've worked with a group
00:19:37.64\00:19:40.89
of other religious leaders
to promote for with this passage
00:19:40.90\00:19:45.34
or advocate for this passage
00:19:45.35\00:19:47.64
and we think that there's
a pretty significant support
00:19:47.65\00:19:50.68
for this and so,
we anticipate this
00:19:50.69\00:19:52.89
going in to law
fairly soon. That's good.
00:19:52.90\00:19:55.27
You know at one level, you know,
00:19:55.28\00:19:57.56
citizens of the
United States tend to think
00:19:57.57\00:19:59.55
that they're
ignored in the Middle East
00:19:59.56\00:20:02.29
and certainly an
alliance with Israel
00:20:02.30\00:20:04.82
which I'm not
saying is wrong whatsoever
00:20:04.83\00:20:06.74
but that's poisoned
00:20:06.75\00:20:08.19
some relations
with the Arab States.
00:20:08.20\00:20:10.77
But I think at
the end of the day
00:20:10.78\00:20:12.74
in the Middle East
as in much of the world,
00:20:12.75\00:20:15.85
the common people
look to the United States,
00:20:15.86\00:20:18.47
not necessarily
with always with envy
00:20:18.48\00:20:20.10
or wanting to emulate it, but
they look to the United States
00:20:20.11\00:20:22.89
to sort of set a turn for
us to give a signal. Right.
00:20:22.90\00:20:25.94
And what you said is very good
00:20:25.95\00:20:28.12
because if the United
States is showing that
00:20:28.13\00:20:30.02
it has an overt interest in
the state of religious liberty
00:20:30.03\00:20:33.69
in that part of the
world as they reformulate
00:20:33.70\00:20:35.72
their governments I
think it will have a potential
00:20:35.73\00:20:38.82
of a very good
or better outcome.
00:20:38.83\00:20:40.42
Because the thought
is that, having somebody
00:20:40.43\00:20:42.69
representing the
United States Government
00:20:42.70\00:20:44.38
who is on the
ground, who is talking with
00:20:44.39\00:20:46.56
the correlation governments
00:20:46.57\00:20:47.70
that are forming-- That's good.
00:20:47.71\00:20:48.75
And say, "Here are some basic
principles that are important.
00:20:48.76\00:20:51.38
Here are things
that you should consider
00:20:51.39\00:20:52.75
as you're writing
the new constitutions."
00:20:52.76\00:20:54.66
Those are all
things that are vital
00:20:54.67\00:20:56.61
to promoting
religious freedom. Absolutely.
00:20:56.62\00:20:58.99
And again, as
we said many times,
00:20:59.00\00:21:01.30
you can't coerce
on religious issues.
00:21:01.31\00:21:03.86
So it would be improper
even if the US had to do so.
00:21:03.87\00:21:07.06
To say, "You must have
00:21:07.07\00:21:09.02
separation of church and state.
00:21:09.03\00:21:10.48
You must treat this
group a certain way."
00:21:10.49\00:21:13.31
But you're gonna
have competing voices
00:21:13.32\00:21:15.02
because anytime
you're starting from scratch
00:21:15.03\00:21:17.93
various
interested parties are gonna
00:21:17.94\00:21:19.60
try to pursue their own agendas.
00:21:19.61\00:21:21.80
And I think that
with the United States
00:21:21.81\00:21:24.26
being a superpower
we should be hopefully
00:21:24.27\00:21:26.80
at a table to-- Absolutely.
00:21:26.81\00:21:28.64
Because obviously,
we've a long term interest
00:21:28.65\00:21:30.90
in the stability in that region.
00:21:30.91\00:21:32.79
But you said something
and I don't challenge using it
00:21:32.80\00:21:36.25
but it gives me an angle.
00:21:36.26\00:21:38.70
We say this glibly
00:21:38.71\00:21:40.02
the United States
is the superpower,
00:21:40.03\00:21:41.61
which it is, has
been and still is,
00:21:41.62\00:21:44.33
and how long it will
remain we don't know.
00:21:44.34\00:21:46.90
But I do think the United States
00:21:46.91\00:21:48.52
has misjudged
its power somewhat--
00:21:48.53\00:21:51.94
We have a goodly
number of nuclear weapons,
00:21:51.95\00:21:56.34
probably enough to lay
waste to the whole world,
00:21:56.35\00:21:59.61
but I don't really
believe that the United States'
00:21:59.62\00:22:02.36
true power in the world
00:22:02.37\00:22:03.62
has hinged down on
that military mart.
00:22:03.63\00:22:06.06
I just don't think so.
00:22:06.07\00:22:08.11
No, but I think in,
particularly in this instance
00:22:08.12\00:22:11.17
where you don't wanna
come in as the superpower,
00:22:11.18\00:22:13.36
but you wanna
come in and saying,
00:22:13.37\00:22:14.95
"You know, we have experience.
00:22:14.96\00:22:16.54
We have a
framework that you can use."
00:22:16.55\00:22:19.39
And so I think the diplomatic
00:22:19.40\00:22:23.21
pursuit is a stronger approach--
00:22:23.22\00:22:25.26
Yeah, but I'm really,
you know, backdoor way,
00:22:25.27\00:22:27.09
trying to backup
what you're saying.
00:22:27.10\00:22:28.86
We have incredible influence
00:22:28.87\00:22:30.41
but it isn't really
because we're a superpower.
00:22:30.42\00:22:33.15
We're a super creation.
00:22:33.16\00:22:38.91
You know, the Bible, if you
interpret Daniel in that way.
00:22:38.92\00:22:42.69
Isn't it Daniel? I
better get my prophecy?
00:22:42.70\00:22:45.32
But anyhow, it talks
about-- No, it's Revelation.
00:22:45.33\00:22:49.47
But anyhow
there's an expectation
00:22:49.48\00:22:51.46
that this land is created out
of nothing a new, new country.
00:22:51.47\00:22:56.21
And I think
that is rather unique
00:22:56.22\00:22:57.72
even though
there's been immigration
00:22:57.73\00:22:58.94
and settlement and colonization
00:22:58.95\00:23:01.30
but of a major power
to sort of be made up
00:23:01.31\00:23:04.47
from people from
all over the world.
00:23:04.48\00:23:06.87
Everybody has a bit of a
stake in the United States
00:23:06.88\00:23:09.64
that I think comes
closer to its real power.
00:23:09.65\00:23:12.08
The fact that there's
a buoyant from population
00:23:12.09\00:23:14.34
they've representation
there. It's a new philosophy.
00:23:14.35\00:23:18.99
It's not religious in
spite of what wishful thinking
00:23:19.00\00:23:22.30
goes on with
the religious right,
00:23:22.31\00:23:23.73
but it had a religious tinge
00:23:23.74\00:23:25.93
to very secular ideas of freedom
00:23:25.94\00:23:28.36
and self-determination,
and it's a grand experiment
00:23:28.37\00:23:31.69
that I think most
countries will pay attention
00:23:31.70\00:23:33.66
to even if they reject it.
00:23:33.67\00:23:34.88
They can't ignore it. Right.
00:23:34.89\00:23:36.94
And so when the
United States takes the time
00:23:36.95\00:23:39.84
to as you're
suggesting here with this,
00:23:39.85\00:23:42.06
special envoy to
speak of this value.
00:23:42.07\00:23:44.60
That's the superpower
that we have not the fact that,
00:23:44.61\00:23:48.07
you know, there's
predators cruising over our head
00:23:48.08\00:23:50.29
or wherever I think
that's counterproductive
00:23:50.30\00:23:52.07
to real
projection of faith. Right.
00:23:52.08\00:23:53.78
But it's the kind of power
00:23:53.79\00:23:55.06
that doesn't
always get reported.
00:23:55.07\00:23:56.48
People don't
always-- No, that's true.
00:23:56.49\00:23:58.09
And most people
don't even necessarily
00:23:58.10\00:23:59.48
know about this
position but I think that,
00:23:59.49\00:24:01.68
in terms of the
impact because especially
00:24:01.69\00:24:05.07
when there is
chaos and commotion,
00:24:05.08\00:24:07.21
you wanna be the quiet voice
00:24:07.22\00:24:08.88
that is pulling groups together,
00:24:08.89\00:24:10.42
working with correlations,
giving them tangible tools
00:24:10.43\00:24:13.94
and examples to work from.
That to me is true diplomacy.
00:24:13.95\00:24:17.43
Absolutely, in
fact, out of the way
00:24:17.44\00:24:19.29
popped into my mind, but
I remember just before the,
00:24:19.30\00:24:22.21
I think it was just
before the '73 oil crisis.
00:24:22.22\00:24:27.16
You know, there
was lots of goings-on
00:24:27.17\00:24:28.47
behind the scenes with Russia
and the Middle East president
00:24:28.48\00:24:31.41
and there was a fellow
who was long since dead
00:24:31.42\00:24:33.01
Arnold Hammer.
00:24:33.02\00:24:34.21
Do you remember that
name? Oh, sure, yeah.
00:24:34.22\00:24:35.82
Now he was basically
an informal ambassador
00:24:35.83\00:24:38.76
for US interest and
hardly anybody heard about him
00:24:38.77\00:24:41.02
but he was talking
face-to-face-- Right.
00:24:41.03\00:24:43.20
With the Soviet leadership
and others in the Middle East
00:24:43.21\00:24:46.01
and I'm positive
for good or real,
00:24:46.02\00:24:48.13
I mean, I'm not here
to defend what he did
00:24:48.14\00:24:50.09
but I'm
positive for good or real
00:24:50.10\00:24:51.45
he had a huge influence
00:24:51.46\00:24:53.16
hardly known by
the adverse personnel.
00:24:53.17\00:24:56.24
And so the United States in
these not much heralded things
00:24:56.25\00:25:01.74
like the envoys can
make a huge difference.
00:25:01.75\00:25:05.31
And so--and
there are other envoys
00:25:05.32\00:25:07.32
but I think particularly with
00:25:07.33\00:25:08.66
what's going on
in the Middle East
00:25:08.67\00:25:09.75
this is a really
unique opportunity.
00:25:09.76\00:25:11.95
And how do you think this
envoy would interact with,
00:25:11.96\00:25:16.18
I believe, is
commission still exist,
00:25:16.19\00:25:18.71
Tony Blair as a UN envoy for
religious affairs, wasn't he?
00:25:18.72\00:25:24.38
Well, I think the
difference would be,
00:25:24.39\00:25:25.56
I think that would
be to the United Nations
00:25:25.57\00:25:28.54
and this would be actually
be from the State Department.
00:25:28.55\00:25:30.68
How is the State
Department reporting directly
00:25:30.69\00:25:32.61
to Secretary of State
and so as opposed to being
00:25:32.62\00:25:36.84
in the U.N. where
many people debate
00:25:36.85\00:25:39.11
the actual effectiveness
of that organization,
00:25:39.12\00:25:42.05
this person would be actually
representing the US Government
00:25:42.06\00:25:45.35
to be able to
travel to these countries
00:25:45.36\00:25:47.54
and speak with the authority.
00:25:47.55\00:25:50.61
Well, I'm trying
to connect some dust
00:25:50.62\00:25:51.83
because it seems to
me, well, they may not
00:25:51.84\00:25:54.01
all have the same agenda
that we're seeing a phenomenon,
00:25:54.02\00:25:58.43
with the UN as an
international body
00:25:58.44\00:26:01.52
is still fit to
designate someone.
00:26:01.53\00:26:05.77
Specifically for religious
affairs in the Middle East
00:26:05.78\00:26:09.12
I think it was with Tony Blair.
00:26:09.13\00:26:11.26
Here the US is
looking for special envoy
00:26:11.27\00:26:14.14
basically for religion.
00:26:14.15\00:26:15.55
We've spoken another
time about Canada. Right.
00:26:15.56\00:26:18.90
A very special
department of religious freedom
00:26:18.91\00:26:22.12
for minorities quite above from,
00:26:22.13\00:26:23.87
apart from just
normal government entities.
00:26:23.88\00:26:26.69
So there's
something going on, isn't it?
00:26:26.70\00:26:28.09
Something-- No, I
think there definitely is
00:26:28.10\00:26:29.57
something going on because
what's really important again
00:26:29.58\00:26:32.23
is we're seeing
various interest groups
00:26:32.24\00:26:34.73
coming together,
various governments
00:26:34.74\00:26:36.12
for the promotion
of religious freedom
00:26:36.13\00:26:38.92
and I'd like to see
other international bodies
00:26:38.93\00:26:41.52
come together for that purpose
00:26:41.53\00:26:43.26
and I think the net
result will be very positive.
00:26:43.27\00:26:47.73
Something sobering about living
00:26:47.74\00:26:49.60
through revolutionary times.
00:26:49.61\00:26:53.33
Maybe some people
haven't thought of it that way
00:26:53.34\00:26:55.38
but when I look
at the TV footage
00:26:55.39\00:26:58.81
of Mohammed Gaddafi
being dragged out of a culvert
00:26:58.82\00:27:02.35
and ending up as a bloody corpse
00:27:02.36\00:27:05.87
I know that these
are revolutionary times.
00:27:05.88\00:27:08.48
When I look at
the courtroom scene
00:27:08.49\00:27:11.17
where the ruler of Egypt,
Hosni Mubarak lying in a bed
00:27:11.18\00:27:17.12
is on trial for his life.
00:27:17.13\00:27:18.90
I know these are
revolutionary times.
00:27:18.91\00:27:22.13
Unfortunately when I hear
news that an opening salvo
00:27:22.14\00:27:26.95
of those revolutionary times
in Egypt and a final capstone
00:27:26.96\00:27:31.16
if you'd like to recent
events where both violence
00:27:31.17\00:27:35.93
against captive
Christians I know that
00:27:35.94\00:27:38.08
these are the worst
of revolutionary times.
00:27:38.09\00:27:41.68
We need to be
careful that we don't see
00:27:41.69\00:27:44.26
these dark, dangerous
times as wonderful developments.
00:27:44.27\00:27:49.41
Freedom may come out of them.
00:27:49.42\00:27:51.01
Religious
liberty maybe protected
00:27:51.02\00:27:53.40
but not unless we
recognize the people of faith,
00:27:53.41\00:27:57.00
people of goodwill
need to interject themselves
00:27:57.01\00:27:59.92
into these times
of changing dynamic.
00:27:59.93\00:28:05.57
This is Lincoln Steed
for "Liberty Insider."
00:28:05.58\00:28:08.60