Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program
that brings you discussion,
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and views, and updates
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and analysis of
religious liberty events
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in the United States
and around the world.
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My name is, Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine,
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and my guest on the
program is Dwayne Leslie.
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Welcome Dwayne,
and to identify you,
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you are the religious
liberty you are the liaison
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for the Seventh-day Adventist
Church to the U.S. Congress.
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That's correct.
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Sunday Laws, that's a really
hot topic with some people
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certainly Seventh-day Adventist.
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Now the best way I
could have of introducing it
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might be provocative to
some, but I remember when the,
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Pope of Rome, visited
Ground Zero, had a mass there,
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he was holding the monstrance,
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and I looked at that,
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and I thought for a
minute this is amazing.
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Here he is waving
in front of everybody,
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the symbol of sun worship.
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Anybody that does their,
their study of the origins
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of some of the religious
symbols particularly in the,
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Catholic Church,
knows where that comes from.
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That was the Obe from
P1agan Rome of sun worship.
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Well, Sunday appropriately
named as the day of the sun
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and for better or worse
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and we could have
another program on it,
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much of the Christian world
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has accepted
Sunday not a biblical day,
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but a day that
derive from sun worship.
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And Seventh-day
Adventist have long believed
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that this is a major in
time point of contention
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between those that
would follow traditions
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and those that would follow
what the Bible actually says
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Saturday,
Seventh-day Sabbath. Right.
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And in the defense
of the, Pope of Rome,
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there is a document Deus Domine,
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you heard of that
document. Yes, I have.
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1996, Rome, is quite upfront
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they say that the Bible does
say the Seventh-day Saturday.
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Right. They just
say the tradition
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and the assumed authority
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of the early
Christian Church changed it.
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Now, when we talk
about religious liberty
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whatever the day is
whether it's Saturday or Sunday,
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we really can't
accept the day is imposed
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on a populous, can
we. No, not at all.
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But has that
happened before. Well, yeah.
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I'm sorry to ask
you too many questions.
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No, but I think
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what's happening is that
as we look through history,
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there've been many instances
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where local
jurisdictions or countries
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have decided to
impose a day of rest,
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which is one step
away from day of worship.
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And I think we're
seeing that there is a--
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in the United
States in North Dakota,
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they have a Sunday Law
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which they
passed many years ago,
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but people have started to
talk about it again of late.
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And it's-- these have usually
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gone over the rear
break of Blue Laws. Exactly.
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And we've
mentioned to our viewers
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those who
regularly watch this program,
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now in discussion of this,
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we pointed out that a
large number of states
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still have these Blue
Laws on their books. Right.
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But generally they're
not applied, are they? No.
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And so this is a
nominal situation
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where not only
has, North Dakota,
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had them here they
have passed the new one.
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Right, and I
think what the rational
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we're seeing both, North Dakota,
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and other places is
that they're not using it
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as a day of worship,
but they're just saying
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there is certain
value in having society
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take a day apart and
rest and not do work and so,
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but to force that they
were actually say stores
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can't be opened
during that time.
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Now, it's very interesting
you probably wouldn't expect
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what I'm about to
say, but it seems to me,
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that in modern history,
the idea of having a day off
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from work didn't come
about by religious forces,
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it came about by the
labor union. Oh, really.
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No, I'm maybe it's
secured as reasoning,
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but I know in when I
was growing up in Australia,
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we used to have, Labor Day,
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and that was to
remember that labor movement
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which had brought in
things in like the 40,
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40 hour a week. Right.
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And the weekend off,
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before that in the
industrial revolution
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you worked, you know, as much,
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kids even as much
as 17 hours a day,
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six day or six to
seven days a week rather.
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And I think you're right,
Lincoln, that is the rational,
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because it's to otherwise
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people would be
working seven days a week.
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And so the basic
principle behind it,
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that it's important to
take a day off from work.
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Its humanistic
that's where I'm getting.
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The labor movement if
it has any affiliation,
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negative affiliation
I think it's, you know,
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it has a communist,
socialist element within the,
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United States, is
often used against it.
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But I think all
that is humanistic,
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there was people
wanting to improve
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their lot against capital
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and here the human beings
thought this is not right.
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And I think true religion
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would agree with
that, wouldn't it.
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The day of rest come
apart and rest, says God.
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He created us for
rest, this divine rest.
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Right. Why not.
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But it's an
interesting dynamic here
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what is the secular logic
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is being seized
upon by church groups
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and certainly
the Catholic Church
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is not being
reminiscent in their support.
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And of course they
have another agenda,
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and that's where we
need to be careful, don't we.
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But again there-- but there
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if you look at their stated
views and support of the law,
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they don't talk about religion,
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they just talk about
the societal benefits.
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Well, anyhow let's
go over the Dakota Law.
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How did this come
about or what is it?
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Well, again I think,
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I don't remember the
exact year that was passed,
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but I believe the law.
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It was this in 2011,
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around June or
July I think it was--
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Well, I think the law basically,
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well, they've had a couple of
different they have something.
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It had a-- well,
as I have discovered
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they had a very similar law
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or even a little
harsher on Sunday
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closings right up until
1991, and curiously enough
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what forced the change was there
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was a huge snow
storm in the area
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which they get periodically.
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I've been there in some storms,
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they get some
interesting storms.
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They had a huge snow storm
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when there was a true emergency
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and people needed
things from the shops,
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they were not
opened by Blue Law edict,
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and so they revisited
it and changed the law.
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I think the new law now
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that they are open
half days on Sundays.
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Yeah, till noon. Till noon.
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Till noon and
it's stated very openly
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that the intention of
this will be to free people up,
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so that they can if they're
inclined to attend church.
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It's not a
requirement to attend church,
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but there is an intention that,
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that's what will happen.
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You're right and I
think that again for people
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whose views don't fall,
I'm taking that day on Sunday,
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then obviously
that's problematic.
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I mean while we agree
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that it's
important to take a day off.
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Again from a
religious liberty perspective,
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it's important that we
as Seventh-day Adventists
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have the right to worship
on our day and not be told.
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Now there is another
curious element to this
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and I'll be, discern
your opinion you're a lawyer
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and I haven't read
the law in its entirety,
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but I read quotes from it.
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And it does given allowance
to religious minorities
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who keep other days to take off
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or to close the shops
some time on their day.
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Now that's a very interesting
admission that a route
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this has a
religious sensibility,
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let just use that word.
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But the problem then is let say,
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you take off another
day and close your shop,
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but then you still
can't open on Sunday.
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I know well, that's
right, so I think it routed
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its prejudicial and
complicated. Absolutely.
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And then something
that I have no knowledge of,
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but how this will
work in North Dakota.
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But I know that
certain franchises
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if you want to buy
like a pizza franchise,
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with that one name
of brand but, you know,
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people purchase the franchise
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and operated under
the rules of the company,
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they will require that you
are open certain hours. Right.
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I wonder how, North Dakota,
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would respond with
defend to franchise
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who's close that on their day
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and looses their
franchises as a result.
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I think there is a lot of
complications on this thing.
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It is, but I believe legally
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I think that state
regulations trump the--
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because most
franchise agreements
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there is gonna be a provision
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in there that's gonna require
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you to comply with
your state local laws.
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And so that's going to trump
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the stated hourly
open requirements.
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So that could be good
for our religious minority
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who before such a law wouldn't
like a Seventh-day Adventist,
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I can tell you on lot of
the franchise arrangements
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I've seen, you
would, you would be required
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and would loose your franchise
if you closed on Saturday.
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Well, that's true.
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Saturday and yes, it's an
interesting spin to it that I,
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I've being mulling over
for a while since I read that.
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But what I want to
read to our viewers,
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because it's problematic to me.
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In the debate that
developed fairly soon
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after the passage of
this in North Dakota.
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In fact it was the
debate was spearheaded
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by a newspaper editorial.
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And in response,
Christopher Dodson,
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the Executive
Director of the North Dakota
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Catholic Conference,
said this which sounded good.
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He says "Sunday
closing laws are not about
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honoring the Sabbath day,
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they are about
honoring people and families."
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It sounds good.
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But I have to ask, why
is the Catholic Conference
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so anxious to
defend this and to say this
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it's not about religion,
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because they've
been very aggressive
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about sort of taking
ownership of the law,
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but saying it's not
for religious purpose.
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Well, because I mean again
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who argues with
that stated purpose
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will pro-family work
less instead of more,
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I mean isn't
those on the surface
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seem to be
pretty laudable goals.
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Yeah on the surface.
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Then he made another
quote that sort of the bells
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went off in my mind.
00:10:58.30\00:11:00.46
He said, the purpose
of this law is to ensure
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and this is an exact quote now
00:11:04.59\00:11:06.28
"That society is not
overtaken by work and profit."
00:11:06.29\00:11:10.77
Now again that's
a wonderful idea.
00:11:10.78\00:11:14.24
But I remember
that reading something
00:11:14.25\00:11:17.06
and this is almost a
direct quote from it.
00:11:17.07\00:11:19.23
I document that,
the Pope Benedict,
00:11:19.24\00:11:22.27
came out with in 2009,
00:11:22.28\00:11:26.06
Caritas in
Veritate, Charity in Truth.
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It's a global prescription
for solving the woes of society
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and of countries
and of immigration
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of labor and
capital, economic collapse,
00:11:37.90\00:11:42.00
sovereign the
issues, they are lot.
00:11:42.01\00:11:44.58
He talks about all of that
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and says that we
need a global authority
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with power to act or power to
enforce to solve these things.
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He uses that
exact same statement.
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And I do find that
document problematic
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not by it stated
intent, but the net effective
00:11:57.54\00:12:01.39
it is one reviewer said is
if you accept this document,
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you have, you
take the pope with it
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or it should be less personal.
00:12:07.35\00:12:09.52
You accept the central role
of the Roman Catholic Church.
00:12:09.53\00:12:13.85
And I believe in
separation of church and state,
00:12:13.86\00:12:16.11
I don't want the
Roman Catholic Church.
00:12:16.12\00:12:17.82
Or any church.
00:12:17.83\00:12:18.89
That's my point or
any church moving in
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and becoming
part of the government
00:12:23.51\00:12:24.77
and then
administering it's principles
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through government entities.
00:12:27.11\00:12:29.28
Right and again I think
00:12:29.29\00:12:30.40
in the separation
of church and state,
00:12:30.41\00:12:32.64
I mean one of the big issues
00:12:32.65\00:12:34.02
is again to be able
to protect the rights
00:12:34.03\00:12:37.10
of the minorities to worship
00:12:37.11\00:12:38.77
how you believe and that's one
of the fundamental principles
00:12:38.78\00:12:41.53
we found in our country.
00:12:41.56\00:12:42.66
Absolutely, absolutely,
I can see, we're getting
00:12:42.67\00:12:45.15
into something basic again
and so we'll take a break now
00:12:45.16\00:12:48.17
and be back after
short break to further
00:12:48.18\00:12:50.29
this discussion of
Blue Laws, Sunday Laws
00:12:50.30\00:12:53.26
and the role of
Church and State.
00:12:53.27\00:12:54.68
One hundred years a long time
00:13:03.63\00:13:06.45
to do anything much
less publish a magazine.
00:13:06.46\00:13:09.40
But this year Liberty the
Seventh-day Adventist voice
00:13:09.41\00:13:13.03
to religious
freedom celebrates 100 years
00:13:13.04\00:13:16.09
of doing what it does best.
00:13:16.10\00:13:17.81
Collecting,
analyzing, and reporting
00:13:17.82\00:13:20.49
the ebb and flow of religious
expression around the world.
00:13:20.50\00:13:23.80
Issue after
issue, Liberty has taken
00:13:23.81\00:13:26.65
on the tough assignments,
tracking down threads
00:13:26.66\00:13:29.37
to religious freedom and
exposing the work of the devil
00:13:29.38\00:13:31.71
in every corner of the globe.
00:13:31.72\00:13:34.12
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:34.13\00:13:36.69
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom issues
00:13:36.70\00:13:39.49
sequestered within a
church community itself
00:13:39.50\00:13:41.78
have been clearly
and honestly exposed.
00:13:41.79\00:13:44.66
Liberty exists for one purpose.
00:13:44.67\00:13:47.04
To help God's people
maintain that all important
00:13:47.05\00:13:50.25
separation of church
and state while recognizing
00:13:50.26\00:13:53.19
the dangers
inherent in such a struggle.
00:13:53.20\00:13:56.12
During the past
century, Liberty has experienced
00:13:56.13\00:13:58.79
challenges of its own
but it remains on the job.
00:13:58.80\00:14:02.35
Thanks to the
inspired leadership
00:14:02.36\00:14:04.03
of a long line of
dedicated Adventist editors.
00:14:04.04\00:14:06.75
Three of whom
represent almost half
00:14:06.76\00:14:08.28
of the publication's existence
00:14:08.29\00:14:09.93
and the foresight of a
little woman from New England.
00:14:09.94\00:14:13.26
One hundred years of struggle,
100 hundred of victories.
00:14:13.27\00:14:17.71
Religious freedom isn't
just about political machines
00:14:17.72\00:14:20.73
and cultural
prejudices it's about people
00:14:20.74\00:14:24.29
fighting for the right
to serve the God they love
00:14:24.30\00:14:27.33
as their hearts and
the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:27.34\00:14:30.63
Thanks to the
prayers and generous support
00:14:30.64\00:14:32.79
of Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere.
00:14:32.80\00:14:35.08
Liberty will continue
to accomplish its work
00:14:35.09\00:14:37.52
of providing timely information,
00:14:37.53\00:14:39.32
spirit-filled inspiration
and heaven sent encouragement
00:14:39.33\00:14:42.59
to all who long to live and
work in a world bound together
00:14:42.60\00:14:47.34
by the God ordained
bonds of religious freedom.
00:14:47.35\00:14:51.17
Welcome back
this is Lincoln Steed,
00:15:01.70\00:15:03.53
Editor of Liberty Magazine
and host of Liberty Insider,
00:15:03.54\00:15:06.75
welcoming you back with
my guest, Dwayne Leslie.
00:15:06.76\00:15:10.33
And Dwayne, before the break
00:15:10.34\00:15:12.43
we were maybe me
00:15:12.44\00:15:13.93
I was getting quite
worked upon on, Sunday Laws,
00:15:13.94\00:15:17.33
in particular
in general and the,
00:15:17.34\00:15:19.74
North Dakota Law, in particular.
00:15:19.75\00:15:23.61
You know, Sunday Laws,
why are they so problematic.
00:15:23.62\00:15:27.46
You know, we've
given a few reasons
00:15:27.47\00:15:28.52
why we don't like--
what's happening in,
00:15:28.56\00:15:30.98
North Dakota, but is
there bigger pictures on this
00:15:30.99\00:15:33.46
that we need to
pay attention to.
00:15:33.47\00:15:34.92
Well, I think again
as Seventh-day Adventist,
00:15:34.93\00:15:37.39
we've always understood
00:15:37.40\00:15:38.53
how this fits into our
view of the end time events
00:15:38.54\00:15:43.52
and I think what is particularly
00:15:43.53\00:15:45.10
problematic is this could
be seen as the first step.
00:15:45.11\00:15:47.29
Because again if
they came out and said,
00:15:47.30\00:15:51.12
you have to be closed on Sunday
00:15:51.13\00:15:52.42
and you have to go to church,
00:15:52.43\00:15:53.92
then there
would be lot of people
00:15:53.93\00:15:55.92
who would be upset with that.
00:15:55.93\00:15:57.09
But in introducing at
the way they introduced it,
00:15:57.10\00:15:59.97
it's very soft,
it's very friendly,
00:15:59.98\00:16:02.28
it's poor family, you
take time, don't work,
00:16:02.29\00:16:06.35
if you want to go express
00:16:06.36\00:16:07.62
your religious
beliefs, that's fine.
00:16:07.63\00:16:09.33
So it's very much of a soft so.
00:16:09.34\00:16:11.48
Yeah, but it's probably the way
00:16:11.49\00:16:14.09
that a real Sunday
Law with this will stop,
00:16:14.10\00:16:17.96
its very unlikely that
just out of the clear blue sky
00:16:17.97\00:16:21.31
they'll be, you
know, law that says
00:16:21.32\00:16:23.62
do this on pain of imprisonment
00:16:23.63\00:16:25.77
maybe later pain of death.
00:16:25.78\00:16:28.33
There needs to be a
logical build up to it
00:16:28.34\00:16:30.24
and perhaps in the U.S.
00:16:30.25\00:16:31.64
it never would be or could
be, go to this particular church
00:16:31.65\00:16:35.65
or there will be
some legal punishment.
00:16:35.66\00:16:38.13
It just a call to worship
00:16:38.14\00:16:39.66
and honor of this
common day that we share.
00:16:39.67\00:16:42.98
I mean, I'm sorry to interrupt
00:16:42.99\00:16:45.47
but, you know, some
people might take literally,
00:16:45.48\00:16:47.32
you and I don't
share that day. Right.
00:16:47.33\00:16:49.34
But the assumption might
be the Christian America,
00:16:49.35\00:16:53.93
which people are
arguing for which doesn't exists
00:16:53.94\00:16:57.07
in a structural sense
or in a governmental sense.
00:16:57.08\00:16:59.48
But this, Christian America,
00:16:59.49\00:17:00.99
shows its national loyalty
by honoring this day of worship.
00:17:01.00\00:17:05.88
Right, but again
like you said its,
00:17:05.89\00:17:07.83
its making this
much more accountable
00:17:07.84\00:17:10.07
by making it by putting
in its most positive life.
00:17:10.08\00:17:13.55
Yeah. Now, we've spoken
about this on the program,
00:17:13.56\00:17:17.26
but this is perfect
time to reiterate it,
00:17:17.27\00:17:19.40
this is not just something
00:17:19.41\00:17:21.01
that came out of, North Dakota.
00:17:21.02\00:17:24.74
At the moment in Europe,
00:17:24.75\00:17:25.85
we're seeing
this sort of dynamic
00:17:25.86\00:17:27.68
being advanced
quite rapidly, aren't we?
00:17:27.69\00:17:29.42
Right, and exactly
the rationals almost
00:17:29.43\00:17:32.14
exactly the same.
00:17:32.15\00:17:33.25
Where it's pro-family
as apposed to be in work,
00:17:33.26\00:17:37.94
working seven days a week.
00:17:37.95\00:17:39.14
There is a group called
the European Sunday Alliance,
00:17:39.15\00:17:41.34
that is trying
to take this to the,
00:17:41.35\00:17:43.71
European Union, for the
basically the same principles.
00:17:43.72\00:17:47.37
Now as I understand in Europe,
00:17:47.38\00:17:49.78
it's the recent development
00:17:49.79\00:17:52.38
started in
Croatia, then Germany.
00:17:52.39\00:17:55.97
little bit like,
North Dakota, Germany,
00:17:55.98\00:17:58.32
it had similar rules in the past
00:17:58.33\00:18:01.20
that it fallen into disrepair,
00:18:01.21\00:18:02.95
they've suddenly re-invoke them.
00:18:02.96\00:18:05.65
But without the
religious compulsion saying now
00:18:05.66\00:18:09.11
it's a family rest day. Right.
00:18:09.12\00:18:10.98
And then from, Germany,
00:18:10.99\00:18:11.99
which is really the
largest economy in Europe,
00:18:12.00\00:18:15.33
now it's before
the European parliament
00:18:15.34\00:18:18.12
and in fact I thought
they approved the policy,
00:18:18.13\00:18:22.21
but maybe it's
still been discussed.
00:18:22.22\00:18:23.40
No, I don't
believe that's correct.
00:18:23.41\00:18:24.53
I mean the alliance actually
is a fairly small group,
00:18:24.54\00:18:28.42
I mean they've gotten
a lot of press about it.
00:18:28.43\00:18:30.60
But for my research say,
I don't think it's gotten
00:18:30.61\00:18:33.32
very far in terms
of to get approval.
00:18:33.33\00:18:35.64
Now in the,
Roman Catholic Church,
00:18:35.65\00:18:37.50
is behind it as our most
other Protestant Churches.
00:18:37.51\00:18:40.60
And I'm not
really sure you can say
00:18:40.61\00:18:42.80
and at least and obviously
open sense that this is,
00:18:42.81\00:18:46.08
because the
church is pushing for.
00:18:46.09\00:18:48.29
What I think happened in Europe,
00:18:48.30\00:18:50.41
is that it sort of a reflex
reaction to the drift away
00:18:50.42\00:18:55.44
from a Christian
identity for the society
00:18:55.45\00:18:58.34
because of Islamic
immigration and so on.
00:18:58.35\00:19:01.30
So I think it's a way to define
00:19:01.31\00:19:02.96
Europe as
Christian or as Western,
00:19:02.97\00:19:06.06
which they sort
to see a synonymous
00:19:06.07\00:19:08.42
to maintain its
integrity societal integrity
00:19:08.43\00:19:13.39
and of course this is
the perfect opportunity
00:19:13.40\00:19:15.61
for those established churches
00:19:15.62\00:19:17.45
and different countries
to then come behind oh,
00:19:17.46\00:19:19.42
yes this is great.
00:19:19.43\00:19:20.63
But I think what
we're seeing though
00:19:20.64\00:19:22.19
it's really on the surface
00:19:22.20\00:19:24.65
its serve that
more of a labor issue,
00:19:24.66\00:19:28.17
you know, and the strong unions.
00:19:28.18\00:19:31.74
Yes, well the
unions would like it,
00:19:31.75\00:19:33.51
but maybe we need to
have a program on unions,
00:19:33.52\00:19:38.49
you know, that's a concern of
Seventh-day Adventists. Right.
00:19:38.50\00:19:40.94
We've got plenty of
advice from our pioneers
00:19:40.95\00:19:45.03
who live through a time
of union or capital labor
00:19:45.04\00:19:49.32
disputes that the unionism
could in its extreme form,
00:19:49.33\00:19:54.04
they used to coheres
people to sort of group behavior
00:19:54.05\00:19:56.49
and then if
there is a Sunday Law
00:19:56.50\00:19:58.98
that could be banned. Right.
00:19:58.99\00:20:00.50
But I'm not really so
sure, I don't know about
00:20:00.51\00:20:02.58
Europe as much, I windingly say,
00:20:02.59\00:20:04.28
I'm not as in tune
00:20:04.29\00:20:05.50
with what the
unions in Europe are doing.
00:20:05.51\00:20:07.18
But I know in the United States,
00:20:07.19\00:20:08.55
unions are weaker than
they ever been in my view,
00:20:08.56\00:20:11.21
I just don't see them
as a powerful force yet in,
00:20:11.22\00:20:13.99
Australia or in
England. And I'm from Australia,
00:20:14.00\00:20:17.46
the unions are little
weaker than they've been.
00:20:17.47\00:20:21.36
So, I'm not so sure
this comes from union point,
00:20:21.37\00:20:24.91
but to be sure, the
unions will support it,
00:20:24.92\00:20:26.96
there is no question.
00:20:26.97\00:20:27.97
I think it maybe that they
not the driving force behind it,
00:20:27.98\00:20:31.30
but they had
their support to it.
00:20:31.31\00:20:32.83
Yes, I'm sure of it. Right.
00:20:32.84\00:20:34.51
And this dynamic is
not wrong, we're not bad,
00:20:34.52\00:20:38.44
who wouldn't want a
day of rest. Of course.
00:20:38.45\00:20:43.13
You know, shop till
you drop might be great
00:20:43.14\00:20:45.64
for some ones to be success.
00:20:45.65\00:20:50.45
But, you know, what
society really needs
00:20:50.46\00:20:52.91
is little pulling back
00:20:52.92\00:20:54.48
from all the
commercial activity in the work
00:20:54.49\00:20:57.18
and so and so
it's not bad suggestion
00:20:57.19\00:21:00.06
but its bad if it's designed
00:21:00.07\00:21:02.33
to enforce religious compliance,
00:21:02.34\00:21:04.73
it's really bad
if it goes against,
00:21:04.74\00:21:07.33
or if it short circuits
peoples power of choice.
00:21:07.34\00:21:11.11
Right and then it also
provides for religious groups
00:21:11.12\00:21:15.09
who celebrate other days
in essence it hurts them,
00:21:15.10\00:21:19.61
because if they don't
do business on their day,
00:21:19.62\00:21:22.49
then they can't and
then to have another day
00:21:22.50\00:21:24.37
that they can't do business on.
00:21:24.38\00:21:26.10
I have, I don't know
00:21:26.11\00:21:28.19
if I mention on
this program before,
00:21:28.20\00:21:30.04
but years ago
when I was touring,
00:21:30.05\00:21:32.02
Spain, with my wife,
00:21:32.03\00:21:33.89
we came in to
the city of Teulada
00:21:33.90\00:21:38.16
toward the Friday evening,
00:21:38.17\00:21:40.11
and we one of the
rest for the Sabbath
00:21:40.12\00:21:42.33
which I not travel on Sabbath
00:21:42.34\00:21:44.58
so we spent that
Saturday Sabbath.
00:21:44.59\00:21:47.60
And I remember Sabbath morning
00:21:47.61\00:21:49.70
we went for
walk through the town
00:21:49.71\00:21:54.20
wasn't as quite as we would hope
00:21:54.21\00:21:55.52
because there were lot
of shops open and so on.
00:21:55.53\00:21:59.02
And it was very noisy
00:21:59.03\00:22:00.46
when we came to a
certain part of the old city
00:22:00.47\00:22:02.50
and here there were
people banging gongs
00:22:02.51\00:22:05.83
and yelling and
screaming and creating a ruckus
00:22:05.84\00:22:08.79
actually couple
hundred people crowding
00:22:08.80\00:22:10.69
around certain shops
then they're moving down
00:22:10.70\00:22:13.78
and doing the
same on another shop.
00:22:13.79\00:22:15.43
We found that these
were with the, Orthodox Jews,
00:22:15.44\00:22:18.46
demonstrating against fellow
Orthodox Jewish shopkeepers
00:22:18.47\00:22:22.15
who were open on the Sabbath.
00:22:22.16\00:22:23.50
Really, I guess they're
not really, Orthodox Jews.
00:22:23.51\00:22:27.21
No, well not
practicing it very well.
00:22:27.22\00:22:30.75
But, you know, it's not just,
00:22:30.76\00:22:36.09
Christians or
Catholics or even Protestants,
00:22:36.10\00:22:39.60
who have done on occasion
00:22:39.61\00:22:40.63
who can be very cohesive
about how the holy days is kept.
00:22:40.64\00:22:45.09
And so we need to
be careful on that,
00:22:45.10\00:22:46.28
but we need to
allow all minorities
00:22:46.29\00:22:48.68
or more than minorities,
00:22:48.69\00:22:50.30
all people of faith
to practice their faith
00:22:50.31\00:22:52.79
as they see for,
00:22:52.80\00:22:53.81
worship on the
day if they choose
00:22:53.82\00:22:55.78
or if not between them and God.
00:22:55.79\00:22:58.07
Absolute because again
that sort of our bedrock
00:22:58.08\00:23:00.46
principle both in our department
00:23:00.47\00:23:01.85
and for our church to be strong
00:23:01.86\00:23:03.55
from those religious freedom
00:23:03.56\00:23:05.56
and that's why we have to watch
00:23:05.57\00:23:07.18
how these laws get applied.
00:23:07.19\00:23:08.82
Yeah, I even as we talk
about this I remember a book
00:23:08.83\00:23:12.77
that I need to
share with you sometime
00:23:12.78\00:23:14.70
and our viewers don't know
00:23:14.71\00:23:15.93
that we have
offices very close together.
00:23:15.94\00:23:18.45
We can talk off program.
00:23:18.46\00:23:20.90
But I've got a book
that I got in a library
00:23:20.91\00:23:26.42
and I got from Pacific Press
00:23:26.43\00:23:27.63
when they sold
their library books.
00:23:27.64\00:23:29.01
But it's very old
book giving records
00:23:29.02\00:23:32.04
of some of the
religious behavior
00:23:32.05\00:23:35.14
in the time of John
Bunyan in Protestant England,
00:23:35.15\00:23:42.30
but it was not really a
very religiously free time.
00:23:42.31\00:23:44.80
Remember, John Bunyan,
was imprisoned for preaching
00:23:44.81\00:23:48.61
when he wasn't
licensed to be a preacher.
00:23:48.62\00:23:51.52
And it's very
interesting to read the records
00:23:51.53\00:23:53.46
that this book has
from the county records,
00:23:53.47\00:23:56.26
official records of
the government at the time.
00:23:56.27\00:23:58.65
People being fined
for sleeping in on Sunday,
00:23:58.66\00:24:01.85
the Sabbath whether it's
the wrong day, sleeping in.
00:24:01.86\00:24:05.62
And the county
clerk was even fined,
00:24:05.63\00:24:09.15
incited for singing
out of tune in church.
00:24:09.16\00:24:12.84
In fact I think
there is a little more
00:24:12.85\00:24:13.84
than sing out of tune,
00:24:13.85\00:24:14.84
because they
said to with he was--
00:24:14.85\00:24:16.89
Our churches might
get in trouble with that--
00:24:16.90\00:24:18.64
He was standing
like a pig they said.
00:24:18.65\00:24:21.25
So it's probably
mocking the stuff
00:24:21.26\00:24:23.41
and another person
was fined for hanging out
00:24:23.42\00:24:25.90
the washing on Sunday.
00:24:25.91\00:24:28.47
But that was the not humorous,
00:24:28.48\00:24:31.26
but, you know, the
petty sort of level of it.
00:24:31.27\00:24:33.32
But the prescriptions of
the state against religious
00:24:33.33\00:24:36.97
nonconformity
were quite extreme.
00:24:36.98\00:24:38.73
Like if the church
excommunicated someone,
00:24:38.74\00:24:42.95
the penalty could extent
to their family like the wife
00:24:42.96\00:24:46.12
of an excommunicate was
fined and put under a ban,
00:24:46.13\00:24:50.48
because she attended
her husband's funeral
00:24:50.49\00:24:53.78
and this is in,
Protestant England.
00:24:53.79\00:24:55.63
And then who enforce that?
00:24:55.64\00:24:57.99
The state because the church
00:24:58.00\00:25:00.61
would just tell
the state authorities
00:25:00.62\00:25:03.85
what was going on and
they would enforce it.
00:25:03.86\00:25:06.50
It's all in record there.
00:25:06.51\00:25:09.06
But it all derive from this idea
00:25:09.07\00:25:10.92
of protecting the
day of worship. Right.
00:25:10.93\00:25:13.17
It might seem a
laudable thing especially,
00:25:13.18\00:25:16.34
you know, when you got a
bunch of unruly irreverent
00:25:16.35\00:25:19.64
people the church
would be good for them.
00:25:19.65\00:25:21.64
But once the state
and the power of the state
00:25:21.65\00:25:23.91
or cohesive power whether
it's the church or the state,
00:25:23.92\00:25:25.95
but the state is more
likely to be cohesive.
00:25:25.96\00:25:29.53
When they do that the whole
principle is abusive I think.
00:25:29.54\00:25:34.94
No, I completely agree
00:25:34.95\00:25:36.30
because again as we've stated
00:25:36.31\00:25:38.56
that's a
fundamental principle here.
00:25:38.57\00:25:41.09
And I think we
probably going to see
00:25:41.10\00:25:43.40
more of these laws come up,
00:25:43.41\00:25:45.45
because again as
people had been complaining
00:25:45.46\00:25:49.16
about sort of what's
going on in Corporate America,
00:25:49.17\00:25:51.85
and you know, these profits
00:25:51.86\00:25:54.11
and so I think we're going
to start to see people saying,
00:25:54.12\00:25:56.08
you know, what
maybe let's step back
00:25:56.09\00:25:57.51
little bit from
surely it's profitable.
00:25:57.52\00:26:00.86
Yes, this is not a
theoretical threat, isn't it?
00:26:00.87\00:26:02.11
In early Adventism
when there were only about
00:26:02.12\00:26:06.67
5 to 10,000 Adventist,
00:26:06.68\00:26:08.57
as many is 900
Seventh-day Adventists
00:26:08.58\00:26:10.49
were fined or imprisoned
over Blue Law infractions
00:26:10.50\00:26:15.17
and that happened not
that many life times ago
00:26:15.18\00:26:18.00
and it could happen again unless
00:26:18.01\00:26:19.15
we're very diligent
about speaking at against this.
00:26:19.16\00:26:21.86
No, and that's and
again in our department
00:26:21.87\00:26:24.01
that's one of the
things we're very focused on,
00:26:24.02\00:26:25.58
because following
what's going on in,
00:26:25.59\00:26:28.07
North Dakota, what's
going on in the, Europe Union.
00:26:28.08\00:26:30.67
We're going to continue to
see more and more of these laws
00:26:30.68\00:26:33.56
and so we are going to continue
00:26:33.57\00:26:35.69
to stand for religious freedom
00:26:35.70\00:26:37.48
and also to protect the rights
00:26:37.49\00:26:39.85
of not only
Seventh-day Adventists,
00:26:39.86\00:26:41.34
but the rights of
everyone to be able to worship
00:26:41.35\00:26:44.01
according to the
freedom of their conscience
00:26:44.02\00:26:46.20
and without
problem from the state.
00:26:46.21\00:26:51.20
I remember being
totally blown away to hear that,
00:26:51.21\00:26:54.06
Supreme Court
Justice Antonin Scalia,
00:26:54.07\00:26:57.22
volunteered an
opinion I hope personal one
00:26:57.23\00:27:00.99
that Sunday Laws or Blue
Laws as they more commonly
00:27:01.00\00:27:04.18
called are not unconstitutional.
00:27:04.19\00:27:07.19
Perhaps so since
the, Supreme Court,
00:27:07.20\00:27:09.84
would determine such effect.
00:27:09.85\00:27:11.73
But we know that
historically Blue Laws
00:27:11.74\00:27:14.64
have been set in place
by religion is determined
00:27:14.65\00:27:18.31
to imposed by law of
their faith practice.
00:27:18.32\00:27:22.21
Now on the principle
00:27:22.22\00:27:23.26
of religious
liberty cohesion is an.
00:27:23.27\00:27:26.72
We do not believe in
requiring people to worship.
00:27:26.73\00:27:30.25
We should be instead
committed to encouraging
00:27:30.26\00:27:33.75
people to follow
their faith initiatives.
00:27:33.76\00:27:36.84
And if they're
called of God to worship
00:27:36.85\00:27:38.67
and if God require such a thing,
00:27:38.68\00:27:40.59
yes, they personally
are under obligation.
00:27:40.60\00:27:43.88
I hope that those that look
such Blue Laws will see them
00:27:43.89\00:27:46.60
not as these Sunday Law,
00:27:46.61\00:27:49.59
but it's a sad sign
of a failure of those
00:27:49.60\00:27:53.89
in church positions to convince
00:27:53.90\00:27:56.51
the general
populous to follow their way.
00:27:56.52\00:27:59.26
It should be the way of
faith not of compulsion.
00:27:59.27\00:28:04.93
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:04.94\00:28:07.37