Welcome to The Liberty Insider.
This is the program that brings
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you discussion and news and
updates on religious liberty
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issues and events
around the world. My name is
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Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty
magazine. My guest on the
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program is Dwayne Leslie. Dwayne
you're the legislative liaison
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for the Seventh-day Adventist
Church, just so our viewers know
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your responsibility. But let's
talk about something that goes
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beyond church matters. You know,
separation of church and state
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is the bedrock position of
Liberty Magazine and I know
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of what you do in representing
the Seventh-day Adventist Church
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but that doesn't mean that we're
unaware of political happenings.
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It's just that we are not
partisan political operatives.
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But we're swimming in the pond
of political activity obviously.
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Right now in the United States
we're in a very early buildup
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or earlier than usual, in my
view, there's been a buildup to
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the presidential campaign for
2012. Do you see religion being
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bandied around in ways
that might be troublesome?
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Well I think it's interesting
because for a country that has
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had a historical separation
of church and state, what we're
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seeing in this campaign
and what's a growing trend is a
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move toward religiosity of
candidates on both sides of the
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political spectrum.
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Didn't Michele Bachman, whose
fortunes have faded a little,
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didn't she make some statement
about the separation of church
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and state as
sort of un-American?
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Well, she just said that it
doesn't and should not exist
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and I think she spoke to a group
of youth leaders and she just
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said that they're teaching
separation of church and state
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and it's not true.
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What do you think about that?
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Well as somebody whose job is
to promote and protect religious
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freedom, I'm troubled with that.
I understand that people have
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strong political views and
strong religious views, but I
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think I get very nervous if
we want to impose those views
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onto others that may not
share those same beliefs.
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After some of the debates
and even after the different
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presidential addresses, not
just the present president; I've
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listened to radio programs where
they have the truth meter and
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they sort of gage some of the
statements, it seems to be that
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is a statement that's just
palpably untrue. She may have
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honestly said it. I
think she believes it.
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Yes, that's what I
mean. She may believe that.
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Or it may be an advocacy
statement saying that it
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shouldn't be.
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Yeah and this does trouble
me that I think the American
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electorate more than Australia
where I came from tends to
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accept what politicians say.
They don't realize that we're
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being bombarded more and more
with talking points that very
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often are manipulations of
reality but on occasion they're
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just flat wrong.
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And I think what we're
seeing, particularly among the
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Republican candidates, is that
many of them are attacking to
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the right in terms of basically
saying that there really should
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not be this wall and it's okay
to bring your personal Christian
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beliefs into, not just the
public sphere, but in terms of
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governing even.
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Where did this ideal of a
wall come from? I've read the
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constitution. It doesn't
say it in the constitution.
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Well I think it tracks back to
something Thomas Jefferson said
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a long time ago. I think
it was in response the Danbury
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letter I believe, the Danbury
Baptists, and he said that
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there's this wall of separation.
But that's been debated
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considerably over the years.
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What about the context of the?
I've mentioned it myself but
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I've never heard anyone really
explain the context of that
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letter and not the way that I
think it should be. Why was he
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writing that letter? Or
why did they write to him?
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Well I think, if I remember
correctly, I believe in that
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case the Danbury group was
basically troubled with the
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people who were professing
their Christian beliefs for
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political gain.
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Yes they were concerned enough.
But people tend to forget,
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Thomas Jefferson, when he ran
for president, was accused of
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being a total secularist,
against religion, basically a
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heretic and someone that
was not fit to rule the country.
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So it seems to me the prevailing
concern of the time was that
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there was not enough religion in
government, that religion would
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be driven away and in some
ways the Danbury Baptists were
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running against the tide at the
moment. Most people wanted more
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government involvement
in religion and more overt
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religiosity.
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But now I think Jefferson's view
would almost be viewed, as you
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said, was to be secularist.
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Yes, and I think in the best
sense he was a secularist but
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I'd like to have another program
sometime to discuss more about
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Jefferson and through
some of his letters with Adams.
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I've been impressed by
those. But you know he made a
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great statement, in fact I think
I have it here, let me read it.
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And this is what is wish some
of these candidates would apply
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to themselves at the moment.
He says, "Say nothing of my
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religion. It is known to my God
and myself alone. It's evidence
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before the world is to be
sought in my life. If that has
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been honest and dutiful to
society, the religion that has
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regulated it cannot be a bad
one. " And obviously it matters
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what faith or lack of faith a
candidate has. I think it's very
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important. But you judge it
on how they act on it, not sort
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of... Well, as the constitution
says, no religious test for
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public office. That's the
improper side of it. But yes in
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a nominally religious society,
not a government, I think it's
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very important to many
people what faith that person
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exemplifies.
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Well I think it is relevant
to see what they have but in
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today's currently politically
charged environment it's really
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hard to separate their personal
views from their ability to
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govern objectively.
That's on both sides.
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What about Governor Perry?
He said that he was praying for
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certain things. He even prayed
that President Obama would see
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the light on other things.
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Well I think he, quote, that he
prayed that he would turn back
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the health care law.
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Like Daniel was at great pains
to be seen publicly praying
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when he was forbidden. But I
don't read in the Bible where we
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know what he prayed for. I mean
that crossing sort of a line
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where you're invoking your God
for a political agenda. That's
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what I see on that.
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And that starts to take you
down, I think, a difficult path.
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Yeah, and we don't want any of
our political leaders to stand
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up as a religious leader and
say, You know, I know what God
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wants for this country and here
this group or this religion is
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opposed to that and, therefore,
they're un-American. You know,
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since 9/11 we've seen plenty
of evidence that the political
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parties or political factions
will do that: Say my political
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enemies are not Americans,
they're supporters of terrorism
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and so on. That's a nefarious
use of this dynamic, but we
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don't want that
applied to religion.
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No and again there's sort have
been that talk that we have to
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protect America from these,
you know, these people who don't
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have out best interest at
heart and that has really put in
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danger some people
that share minority views.
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Yeah, absolutely. What else in
the campaign has sort of caught
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your radar?
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Well again I think it's
interesting how people are
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trying to see I'm more religious
that the next guy, or my
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Christian views are better or
more mainstream than views that
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are out of the mainstream.
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Several years ago I know I
used this example but this seems
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like and appropriate time
to remember. There was a Bloom
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County cartoon - Do you follow
Bloom County, Opus the penguin?
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In fact, I think this was as
far back as the beginning of the
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Bush administration when
religion was freely used for
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political advantage. And Opus
in the cartoon was a candidate.
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He was running for office and he
stood up and he says, I believe
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in religion. And he
says, furthermore, I believe it
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20% more than my nearest
candidate. And he says, but my
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religion is a private affair.
He says, I will not share it.
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Then from the audience someone
yells out, because he's a
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penguin, they said do
you believe in walrus angels?
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And he says, Oh certainly I do.
And the next thing you see him
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being kicked off the stage, and
he says, Conspicuous religiosity
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is such a dangerous thing. Well
you see there is a down side to
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someone that invokes religion
I think and it's not a self
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correcting mechanism but very
often people that go beyond what
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they should in religious
propriety to try to get
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political support by a religious
stand, you know, they pay a
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price. And that's probably
appropriate and it's our best
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hope at the moment. But I
could wish that we could as a
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constituency in the United
States, that people could sort
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of communicate to these
political leaders that it's not
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to the good of the country
and it often offends minorities
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certainly. And it's offensive
to the constitution isn't it?
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Well I think so, but what we're
realizing is that to go the
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other way... I mean if
someone is truly a secularist,
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or where else are they going
to go. So I think even on both
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sides they realize that we can
actually play to the religious
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crowd because they do vote;
there's a lot of political power
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and the people who are not
religions, they're going to vote
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a certain way anyway.
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You know in the early Seventh-
day Adventist Church... I don't
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know if you've read this article
in Liberty yet but in the early
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Seventh-day Adventist Church
there was a serious debate
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among the membership as
to whether they should be
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politically involved at all
because it seemed to them that
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they were heading sooner
rather than later to Christ's
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everlasting kingdom, this was a
sinful world that was imploding
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rapidly and they shouldn't be
concerned with solving problems
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here and now through political
means, that they should be
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heavenly-minded and heaven-bound
and there was quite a discussion
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about whether they should be
involved in political matters.
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But I think our primary
focus obviously is our eternal
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salvation but while we're here
I think we want to make sure
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that the world is a better
place and if we're to love our
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neighbor, part of loving them
is to make sure that they have
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the right to worship and believe
the way that they want to.
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Absolutely, I agree with you.
So I think that it's a matter of
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balance. If a Christian had put
an unbalanced amount of their
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concern with solving here and
now they show that they're not
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really headed there but we're
not to be so heavenly-minded
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that we're of no earthly use, to
use the old cliché. And I think
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the Seventh-day Adventist Church
did settle it that way. There
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were real issues and prohibition
which is the loaded word but
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the temperance message which
was a moral regeneration of
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their society argued strongly
that they needed to be involved
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politically. And you gave the
reason too I think. A person of
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faith and of good charity toward
their fellows would want to do
00:12:10.60\00:12:14.10
what they could here and now to
improve the lot of other people.
00:12:14.14\00:12:17.60
And I think the one danger
sometimes is that we can make
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broad generalizations about an
entire group of believers, which
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may or may not be true. And
again the message that it sends
00:12:25.34\00:12:29.46
is one of rigidity and
intolerance and I think we saw
00:12:29.50\00:12:33.20
candidate Herman Cain who
did that who made a statement
00:12:33.23\00:12:36.41
originally which he subsequently
retracted that he wouldn't
00:12:36.44\00:12:39.58
include Muslims in his
administration should he be
00:12:39.62\00:12:41.86
elected.
00:12:41.89\00:12:43.26
Yeah, that was a very
ill- advised statement.
00:12:43.29\00:12:44.67
Right, but again he's taken that
back but when you look at how
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that was perceived both here in
this country and abroad, it says
00:12:49.83\00:12:54.88
that its rigidity and
intolerance. I think he's
00:12:54.92\00:12:58.23
realized that obviously that's
not something that you should
00:12:58.27\00:13:02.60
state publicly.
00:13:02.63\00:13:04.00
You know, he's fairly new to the
political scene. I think he was
00:13:04.03\00:13:07.03
expressing a personal bias that
he hadn't thought through too
00:13:07.06\00:13:10.20
carefully but he's thought
on it long and hard now. And to
00:13:10.24\00:13:13.08
it's credit the United States
has shown a willingness to
00:13:13.11\00:13:15.92
involve many religious
minorities in high office.
00:13:15.96\00:13:19.46
As I said, it derives from the
constitution, no religious test
00:13:19.49\00:13:24.43
of public office. You know
we can debate what they really
00:13:24.47\00:13:28.66
meant when they put that in
because in its past history the
00:13:28.69\00:13:33.49
U.S. has been extremely biased
toward certain religious and
00:13:33.53\00:13:38.30
national groups,
there's no question. Right.
00:13:38.33\00:13:41.80
We'll be back after a short
break. Stay with us for our
00:13:41.84\00:13:45.67
discussion of religion in
politics in the presidential
00:13:45.71\00:13:49.50
campaign.
00:13:49.54\00:13:50.91
¤ ¤
00:13:50.94\00:13:58.55
One hundred years, a long
time to do anything, much less
00:13:58.58\00:14:02.71
publish a magazine. But this
year Liberty, the Seventh-day
00:14:02.75\00:14:06.76
Adventist voice of religious
freedom celebrates 100 years of
00:14:06.79\00:14:10.77
doing what it does best,
collecting, analyzing and
00:14:10.80\00:14:14.27
reporting the ebb and flow of
religious expression around the
00:14:14.30\00:14:18.23
world. Issue after issue
Liberty has taken on the tough
00:14:18.26\00:14:21.69
assignments, tracking down
threats to religious freedom and
00:14:21.72\00:14:24.96
exposing the work of the devil
in every corner of the globe.
00:14:24.99\00:14:28.19
Governmental interference,
person attacks, corporate
00:14:28.23\00:14:31.72
assaults, even religious freedom
issues sequestered within the
00:14:31.76\00:14:34.74
church community itself
have been clearly and honestly
00:14:34.77\00:14:38.55
exposed. Liberty exists for one
purpose: To help God's people
00:14:38.59\00:14:42.48
maintain that all important
separation of church and state
00:14:42.52\00:14:46.48
while recognizing the dangers
inherent in such a struggle.
00:14:46.51\00:14:50.15
During the past century Liberty
has experienced challenges of
00:14:50.19\00:14:53.79
its own but it remains on
the job thanks to the inspired
00:14:53.82\00:14:57.23
leadership of a long line
of dedicated Adventist editors,
00:14:57.26\00:15:00.47
three of whom represent
almost half of the publication's
00:15:00.51\00:15:03.65
existence and the foresight of
a little woman from New England.
00:15:03.69\00:15:07.93
One hundred years of struggle,
100 years of victories.
00:15:07.96\00:15:11.72
Religious freedom isn't just
about political machines and
00:15:11.75\00:15:15.44
cultural prejudices; it's about
people fighting for the right to
00:15:15.47\00:15:20.10
serve the God they love as
their hearts and the Holy Spirit
00:15:20.13\00:15:23.95
dictate. Thanks to the prayers
and generous support of Seventh
00:15:23.99\00:15:27.77
day Adventists everywhere,
Liberty will continue to
00:15:27.81\00:15:30.99
accomplish its work of providing
timely information, Spirit
00:15:31.03\00:15:34.62
filled inspiration and heaven
sent encouragement to all who
00:15:34.65\00:15:38.61
long to live and work in a
world bound together by the God
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ordained bonds of
religious freedom.
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¤ ¤
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Welcome back to the Liberty
Insider. Before the break I was
00:15:52.15\00:15:57.64
talking with guest Dwayne
Leslie about the buildup to the
00:15:57.67\00:16:02.27
election of 2012 and how
religion has really, I think,
00:16:02.30\00:16:06.78
played an unseemly part in
it already. But it's not new.
00:16:06.82\00:16:11.23
I mean, go back 8-10 years ago
to when George Bush was running
00:16:11.26\00:16:16.35
for president. There were
plenty of religious comments and
00:16:16.39\00:16:20.13
players, but it seems to me
there's been a shift. Don't you
00:16:20.17\00:16:24.03
agree, where it was the classic
religious right, Jerry Falwell
00:16:24.06\00:16:27.88
and the moral majority people
and their hard core religious
00:16:27.92\00:16:32.64
agenda. I don't see that same
group evident in this campaign
00:16:32.67\00:16:37.35
already, do you?
00:16:37.39\00:16:38.76
Not really, but I think what's
happened is that we've had a
00:16:38.79\00:16:41.57
broadening of the appeal
on religion, because, again,
00:16:41.61\00:16:44.00
traditionally religion was more
seen on the right as opposed
00:16:44.03\00:16:48.35
to the left and I think the
left realized that in the recent
00:16:48.39\00:16:52.82
election 41% of the electorate
were church goers. And so they
00:16:52.86\00:16:56.65
thought here's an opportunity
to tap into that and so it's
00:16:56.69\00:17:00.45
okay to "be religious. "
00:17:00.48\00:17:03.57
Yeah, because like Rick Warren
who's now a major league favored
00:17:03.60\00:17:08.28
figure by the political elite.
You know his appeal is not sort
00:17:08.31\00:17:12.95
of doctrinaire, it's more
sort of the mega church approach
00:17:12.99\00:17:17.03
so in some ways it's worse
than it was then. Then it was a
00:17:17.07\00:17:20.80
highly motivated doctrinaire
religious group that had decided
00:17:20.84\00:17:24.15
to become politically involved.
Now it's broadened and, as you
00:17:24.19\00:17:27.41
say, the Democrats have got
religion, the Republicans feel
00:17:27.44\00:17:32.29
that it's theirs but they'll
invoke it just the same but it's
00:17:32.32\00:17:36.33
more broad-based and I think
across the political spectrum
00:17:36.37\00:17:40.40
politicians see a political
advantage in using religious
00:17:40.43\00:17:44.24
sentiment and that's not in
itself wrong but when they use
00:17:44.27\00:17:48.41
it improperly it just troubles
me. A demagogue on religion
00:17:48.44\00:17:52.55
never occurs that well does it?
00:17:52.58\00:17:54.17
Well and again what that does
though it again sets up a debate
00:17:54.21\00:17:58.38
as to who's a better Christian
than someone else and then that
00:17:58.41\00:18:02.29
takes you down a path in a
political election which I'm not
00:18:02.32\00:18:06.16
sure we want to be.
00:18:06.20\00:18:07.76
Absolutely. So what do
you think is going to happen.
00:18:07.80\00:18:10.66
Play the prophet or the pundant,
the TV pundant. Where do you
00:18:10.69\00:18:19.40
think we're headed. Is this
going to rattle along on the
00:18:19.44\00:18:24.07
slightly proprietous level
or do you think it's going to
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come more and more...
00:18:28.73\00:18:30.10
Well I think at some point it
will reach a point where there's
00:18:30.13\00:18:34.12
that natural balance. Because on
the one side, on the left, you
00:18:34.16\00:18:38.12
probably don't want to go too
far. You don't want to alienate
00:18:38.15\00:18:42.53
the folks who are not religious
at all. Then I think on the
00:18:42.56\00:18:46.63
right side then you may have
a situation where if it gets
00:18:46.67\00:18:50.40
to be too much religion in
politics then you still want to
00:18:50.43\00:18:54.10
appeal to the center because a
lot of the American public is in
00:18:54.13\00:18:57.21
the center.
00:18:57.25\00:18:58.62
Now of course we are in an
election season but other things
00:18:58.65\00:19:02.67
are happening. The economy is,
depending on where you're coming
00:19:02.71\00:19:07.41
from, you can say that
it's crippling along and barely
00:19:07.44\00:19:09.69
recovering or you can say that
it's on the verge of dropping
00:19:09.72\00:19:13.27
off another cliff and when
people get dissatisfied, they
00:19:13.30\00:19:17.27
become politically restive
and when things get bad for them
00:19:17.31\00:19:21.13
they become more religious. Do
you think that this dynamic is
00:19:21.16\00:19:24.95
working in
conjunction with the campaign?
00:19:24.98\00:19:28.11
In some ways, like you said,
in difficult times people are
00:19:28.14\00:19:33.29
you know, but go back to church,
they become stronger in their
00:19:33.32\00:19:38.00
faith and so I think people want
to see candidates who they can
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identify with, with their faith
group. But that can also cut
00:19:43.08\00:19:47.19
against you if you're candidate
that is not deemed to be from
00:19:47.23\00:19:51.59
the typical traditional main
stream and the voter says, I
00:19:51.62\00:19:55.95
can't identify with you
so that could be a problem.
00:19:55.99\00:20:01.17
You mean Mitt Romney. I
feel very sorry for him really.
00:20:01.21\00:20:06.32
I'm not supporting any candidate
We said we would never say that
00:20:06.35\00:20:11.37
on this program but just
look at him as a human being who
00:20:11.41\00:20:14.42
happens to be a candidate. I
think this whole religion issue
00:20:14.45\00:20:17.43
is biting him big
time at the moment.
00:20:17.46\00:20:19.74
Well what it does is it's
now the story that won't go away
00:20:19.77\00:20:23.46
and so one part of the debate
with religion on the campaign
00:20:23.50\00:20:27.15
trail is the scrutiny
of candidate Romney and his
00:20:27.18\00:20:31.34
religion which then leads
into well let's look at the
00:20:31.37\00:20:35.49
examination of the
beliefs of the Mormon church.
00:20:35.53\00:20:38.59
Which may not be bad for
Mormonism. I can remember in
00:20:38.63\00:20:42.74
Australia years ago when
the Lindy Chamberlain issue was
00:20:42.78\00:20:46.86
was preoccupying the
whole nation. Of course, Lindy
00:20:46.90\00:20:50.91
Chamberlain was the wife of an
Adventist pastor and their child
00:20:50.94\00:20:55.24
had been taken under bizarre
circumstances by dingoes and she
00:20:55.28\00:20:59.20
eventually spent time in prison
on murder charges which were
00:20:59.23\00:21:05.43
later dismissed. But I remember
we got an expert who happened
00:21:05.46\00:21:10.21
to also be a member of the
church, a public figure who was
00:21:10.25\00:21:14.71
on television a multimillionaire
doctor and we asked him what
00:21:14.75\00:21:19.18
can we do to solve this PR
problem. And he says, well I
00:21:19.21\00:21:23.74
think any publicity is good
publicity. He says, it will turn
00:21:23.78\00:21:28.12
out well in the end. And I have
to admit that I think the truth
00:21:28.15\00:21:32.46
of that has been born out.
You know 9/11 was a disastrous
00:21:32.50\00:21:35.66
event clearly. It was bad to see
that fanatical Muslims had been
00:21:35.70\00:21:41.86
involved there. You would think
that that would be a negative
00:21:41.90\00:21:46.87
for Islam. It's not. More people
than ever have wanted to find
00:21:46.90\00:21:50.74
out about Islam. They've been
studying it vigorously. In the
00:21:50.78\00:21:54.59
United States the conversion
rate has gone up. I have a
00:21:54.62\00:21:58.69
feeling that Mormonism is not
going to suffer from this. Mitt
00:21:58.72\00:22:03.69
Romney is but people want
to find out more when they hear
00:22:03.72\00:22:08.65
these attacks.
00:22:08.68\00:22:10.05
But I mean, it's interesting.
I've had a chance to actually
00:22:10.08\00:22:12.77
talk with some high level
Mormons on this and it's a
00:22:12.81\00:22:16.80
chance to tell their story. So
they look at it as a chance to
00:22:16.84\00:22:21.51
get a lot of free publicity
to say, Here's what we believe,
00:22:21.55\00:22:26.21
and candidate Romney doesn't
want to engage in that so when
00:22:26.24\00:22:30.87
he gets questions he
refers them to the church.
00:22:30.90\00:22:33.49
Yeah and of all the candidates
I actually think he's the one
00:22:33.53\00:22:37.22
that's least problematic on
how he projects his religion.
00:22:37.25\00:22:40.87
I haven't seen him sort of using
it for political advantage which
00:22:40.90\00:22:45.47
he could. It would be hard for
him to do but he doesn't sort
00:22:45.51\00:22:47.84
of try for the cheap shots.
But pulling back from that,
00:22:47.87\00:22:51.06
I need to make a statement to
our viewers. We are told in the
00:22:51.10\00:22:55.44
Bible that there will be a very
special testing time at the end
00:22:55.48\00:22:59.79
of time when God's people
will have to give an account for
00:22:59.82\00:23:02.69
their faith. Certainly that's
happened many times in the past
00:23:02.73\00:23:05.83
and even now in some countries.
But more globally that will be
00:23:05.86\00:23:09.21
the case and I really think that
while persecution is not good,
00:23:09.24\00:23:12.76
that's the up side to it. When
you're really brought to account
00:23:12.79\00:23:16.79
for what you believe, in a
certain way it can only help the
00:23:16.82\00:23:20.05
truth. What did Jesus say?
You can't do anything against it
00:23:20.09\00:23:24.08
only for it. So we need to keep
that dynamic in mind and while
00:23:24.11\00:23:28.80
I don't agree with Mormonism,
I respect Mitt Romney for having
00:23:28.84\00:23:33.50
that faith, for not being
ashamed of it and also not so
00:23:33.53\00:23:37.36
far, in my view, for in a
cheap way trying to use it.
00:23:37.39\00:23:41.15
Well people should judge him and
all the candidates on are they
00:23:41.18\00:23:45.48
the right person to lead this
country on either side of the
00:23:45.52\00:23:49.79
spectrum.
00:23:49.83\00:23:51.20
And you know, you've got to ask
the question, let's forget about
00:23:51.23\00:23:54.56
Mitt Romney, but you know if you
had a secularist who is a person
00:23:54.59\00:23:58.75
of good publish morality
and governs well, is that better
00:23:58.78\00:24:02.95
or worse than say someone who
trumpets loudly that they're a
00:24:02.98\00:24:06.88
Christian but is living very
badly as a Christian. So just
00:24:06.91\00:24:10.77
to be a Christian is not...
00:24:10.80\00:24:13.48
That's actually a great point
because from a religious liberty
00:24:13.52\00:24:16.54
perspective the secularist
would probably be the strongest
00:24:16.57\00:24:19.56
advocate for religious freedom.
00:24:19.59\00:24:22.04
And in reality, back to Thomas
Jefferson, we've got the example
00:24:22.07\00:24:26.36
He was not quite as secular as
people imagined but he was not
00:24:26.40\00:24:30.65
an orthodox Christian by any
stretch, but he was very heavy
00:24:30.69\00:24:34.87
into public morality and I think
he was a patriot and what he and
00:24:34.91\00:24:38.94
some of the others put down on
paper has stood the U.S. well.
00:24:38.98\00:24:43.13
It was interesting because
he took it, I think, to almost a
00:24:43.16\00:24:47.38
logical extreme where he was so
particular about not wanting to
00:24:47.42\00:24:51.44
cross the line between church
and state, he refused to issue
00:24:51.48\00:24:55.87
thanksgiving day proclamations,
which I thought was interesting.
00:24:55.91\00:24:59.45
Very interesting. He was not the
only one to be cautious about
00:24:59.49\00:25:03.00
that but you know he
just wouldn't deal with it.
00:25:03.03\00:25:06.05
But I'm not sure a secularist
today could win the nomination
00:25:06.08\00:25:10.61
of either party and
actually win an election
00:25:10.65\00:25:15.30
It's a good point because while
in the very early days of the
00:25:15.33\00:25:19.05
the U.S. republic religion was
more commonly accepted than now,
00:25:19.08\00:25:22.61
the U.S. had gone through some
periods of what, in retrospect,
00:25:22.64\00:25:27.70
seem extreme secularity. So we
are very publicly religious now
00:25:27.74\00:25:32.34
which is not bad on a personal
or cultural level but it's very
00:25:32.38\00:25:36.95
bad politically. That's my view.
00:25:36.99\00:25:39.35
And the thing is, what
message does this send to the
00:25:39.39\00:25:41.88
international community? I think
is something that we also need
00:25:41.91\00:25:44.66
to focus on.
00:25:44.70\00:25:46.07
Absolutely. We're
arguing against, you know, the
00:25:46.10\00:25:49.57
televisation of the Islamic
world. We need to be careful
00:25:49.61\00:25:53.39
that we don't have a similar
dynamic in the United States.
00:25:53.43\00:25:57.20
I think that's exactly right,
because what's happening abroad
00:25:57.23\00:26:01.80
is sort of what happens if
you play this out; if one way of
00:26:01.83\00:26:06.03
religious thought becomes too
strong and then they are able to
00:26:06.06\00:26:10.23
have the power to
oppress the religious world.
00:26:10.27\00:26:12.89
Yeah, so I think the genius
of the United States is that it
00:26:12.92\00:26:15.58
stands both for religious
freedom and for the separation
00:26:15.62\00:26:18.24
of church and state,
or a secular governance.
00:26:18.28\00:26:21.41
Right. And I think that that is
one of the things that we really
00:26:21.44\00:26:23.59
want to focus on. Because
particularly in our department
00:26:23.63\00:26:26.58
we focus on protecting religious
freedom and really getting that
00:26:26.62\00:26:30.48
message out and so to folks in
other parts of the world we want
00:26:30.51\00:26:34.98
to set a good example that
it's possible as we sort of move
00:26:35.01\00:26:39.41
together a little bit but we can
still protect religious freedom
00:26:39.44\00:26:42.94
and still protect the rights
of all Americans to believe what
00:26:42.98\00:26:46.44
they want and share
their faith accordingly.
00:26:46.48\00:26:49.42
Years ago, decades actually,
I traveled to Jamaica during the
00:26:49.45\00:26:54.61
prime ministership of Prime
Minister Manly and attended a
00:26:54.64\00:26:58.98
political gathering. I'll never
forget it. There were tens of
00:26:59.01\00:27:03.00
thousands in the crowd and when
the prime minister arrived as he
00:27:03.04\00:27:06.99
walked up to the podium they
chanted out lion, lion, lion,
00:27:07.03\00:27:11.51
lion of Judah. And he got
up there and ranted and raved
00:27:11.54\00:27:15.96
against his political enemies,
these were the Philistines, and
00:27:15.99\00:27:19.55
he said I will take you, he says
my people to the promised land.
00:27:19.58\00:27:23.10
I found it very interesting
political theater, almost
00:27:23.14\00:27:27.91
humorous at the time because
there was not an edge to it.
00:27:27.94\00:27:32.68
It was almost a naive
religiosity. But I must admit
00:27:32.71\00:27:36.25
as the years have gone by,
and particularly in the U.S.
00:27:36.29\00:27:39.76
presidential campaign, I hear
religion similarly invoked and
00:27:39.79\00:27:43.59
the same marginalization of
the political religious enemies.
00:27:43.62\00:27:47.39
My blood runs cold because
I don't think this thing is
00:27:47.42\00:27:51.14
healthy. It's not healthy
any time. It certainly is not
00:27:51.17\00:27:54.77
healthy when there is a
constitutional requirement of
00:27:54.80\00:27:58.33
the separation of church and
state. For Liberty Insider this
00:27:58.36\00:28:03.07
is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:03.10\00:28:06.13