Welcome to "The
Liberty Insider."
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This is the
program that brings you
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up-to-date news, views,
information, and discussion
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on religious liberty events
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in the United States
and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on the
program is Dwayne Leslie.
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Dwayne, welcome. Thank you.
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And I need to tell
our viewers what you do.
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Your work for the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
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World
Headquarters in Washington DC
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and you're the
legislative liaison
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to the U.S. Congress basically.
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That's correct,
yes. I, being in the--
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padding up the
legislative affairs
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for the world
church, I'm in Washington.
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And I represent the
church to the administration,
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to Capitol Hill and then also
to the diplomatic community.
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Very good. I'd be
remiss if I didn't like
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a liberty
connection not with you
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but the position you're holding.
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The Seventh-day Adventist Church
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has long been
interested in religious freedom
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and in liaison to Washington
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and the first editor of
our religious liberty journal,
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Alonzo T. Jones, had a
lot of dealings with Congress,
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gave congressional testimony
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on in Cyprian
Sunday Law in his day.
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All right. Back
in the late 1880s.
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Tell me what you've
discovered already in the hectic
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few months that you've
been working in Washington.
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Do we have a ready ear
with some of these Legislatives?
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Do they want to talk
about religious freedom?
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Well, it's seems to.
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I think we're seeing much
more of an up-take right now
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as we head into
the election season,
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but the issues that I
think of particular interest
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are what's going on all
over the world internationally,
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much less so domestic issues.
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In prior congresses, there
were specific domestic issues
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that really rallied
the community together.
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What we're finding is
that there are a lot of
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anti-religion laws being
passed all over the world.
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And so what we're
doing in our department
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is trying to
work with US resources
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and State
Department or the embassies
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to try to put some
international pressure
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to protect religion everywhere.
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That's interesting. You
bring up the anti-religion
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measures on this program.
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We'd discussed not too long ago
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the United Nation's initiatives
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that have been spearheaded
by a number of countries,
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most of them Islamic,
where they were bringing in
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guidelines called
"Anti-Defamation Laws"
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where they were really
making it an international crime
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of sorts to speak
ill of their religion.
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And I know this
troubled the western powers.
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Has anything happened on that?
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I believe that it was a
resolution from the U.N.
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but how formal that was
and whether it's possible
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to revoke that I don't know.
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Well, I know that there has
been quite a bit of discussion
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with the United Nations
on the Anti-Defamation Law
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but I've really--
because we have someone who is
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from the church, who
actually is in New York,
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who's been more focused on that.
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I've been really
looking at from the other end
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with the protection of the
rights of religious minorities
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because Pakistan
is a classic example
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where they had a defamation law,
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but then there was
political persecution
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for people who would
speak out against that.
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And that's something
that we're really concerned
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about because we wanna make sure
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that religious minorities are
protected all over the world.
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And my
observation on Pakistan is,
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yes, because of the
strong Islamic society
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and some extreme
elements they invoke
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this defamation of Islam
often with scary results,
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where people are
subject to the death penalty.
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But nearly always
there is a political reason
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why they've invoked that.
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There is a political
agenda and the religion
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is invoked to
serve a political cause.
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And it just reminds me that
we need to be always pushing
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for the separation
of church and state.
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Absolutely. We can't
change the nature of religion.
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It's not our business, is it?
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Not all. As Christians
we can project our religion
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in the most
winsome way possible,
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but I don't think
it's the business of those
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in the religious liberty circles
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to denature any
religion from its claims.
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All right, because I
think what government
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should hopefully realize
is there is a certain benefit
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to having diversity of religion.
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And just, unfortunately
when certain groups
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have power it's very easy
to trample upon the rights
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of those that are
smaller in number.
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Yeah, I got the
idea the other day.
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You and I
actually attended a meeting
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near the White House
where we heard some feedback
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from what's going on and I
got the distinct impression
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that the United
States has been able to,
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if not turn back and maybe
moderate this U.N. initiative.
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Well, I think it
remains to be seen,
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but I think there is
definitely interest in bringing
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sort of a global pressure
to do this because this is,
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this is something
which is a very serious issue
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and we're concerned about it.
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What do you see
coming up on the horizon
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within the U.S.
through the government?
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Are there legislative proposals
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that might have
religious implications
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or religious
liberty implications?
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In terms of U.S.
Legislation that-- Yeah.
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Well, I think
right now this has been
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a bit of a quiet
period, but I think we're gonna
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start to see
some things heat up.
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I think one area that's
been a bit of a political fight
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is the reauthorization
of the U.S. Commission
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on International
Religious Freedom.
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And so what we're
finding is we have
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that which is there in
essence a watchdog agency
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but you also have
the State Department
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International
Religious Freedom Office
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and some time
they're with each other.
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And as it's going
through the process
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we found that there
have been some people
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that want to actually
diminish their standing for that
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and even though
sometimes those groups
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don't always work in
context with each other.
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We still would hate to
see one of the bodies charged
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with promoting
religious freedom to actually
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either be go away
or reduced in stature.
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We need to
explain for our viewers,
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what is the U.S.
Commission on religious freedom.
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Sure. How is it
set up for example?
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Well, the U.S.
Commission was established,
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in essence to be
a watchdog agency
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but unfortunately with the way
it's actually been implemented
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sometimes it's a little unclear
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as to who has the proper
authority internationally.
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But what they do is they look
at countries around the world,
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they issue an annual
report that identifies countries
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that are not doing,
that are not promoting
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religious freedom
and they work with other,
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with the government
basically to protect religions.
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Yeah, that be
nine commissioners--
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That's correct. As I understand
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and an executive
director and I believe,
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in fact, I know in reality,
they've reported pretty must
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to the U.S.
Ambassador for religious freedom
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or at least informed him.
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Well, actually not
reported to the U.S. Ambassador,
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is actually an ex-officio
member of the Commission
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but the U.S.
Ambassador actually--
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Yeah, brings it,
brings it. That's true.
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Because that
position actually works
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with the State Department.
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Yeah, and it's worth
mentioning that James Standish
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who once held your opposition
for a short time was actually
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the executive director
of the U.S. Commission.
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That's correct. So we've
had some direct involvement,
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by extension from our church.
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I must tell you and the viewers
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what's stuck in my mind
about the U.S. Commission
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was once in New
York I sat in a meeting
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where one of the
members, a young woman,
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a Buddhist I believe was
her religious affiliation,
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but one of the
commission members gave a report
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on what the
commission had been doing
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in Iraq and Afghanistan.
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And she was scandalized
and did not hold back in
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giving her cautions on the fact
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that in both those countries
we had allowed somehow,
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not been able to prevent
the adoption of constitutions
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that put the Qur'an
as the reference point
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for all the lawyers there.
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Well, but in a situation
like that though again where,
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where religious power
equates the political power
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and you don't
have representation
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or protection of
religious minorities,
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then you're gonna
have those situations.
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Yeah, well, here was a
case where the commission,
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I think clearly
identified the problem
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but they didn't have the
direct political power to--
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Right. To push the
government to intervene.
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I mean it might not
have been proper for the U.S.
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to intervene so directly as
to prohibit those constitutions
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but we certainly
as an occupier of Iraq
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and a big partner
with the Afghan government.
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We have more than some
little influence to direct
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how those
constitutions were formulated.
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And I think that
there is actually,
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you ask about growing trends.
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I think there is an
increasing trend right now
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to look at the
protection of religious freedom
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as a component of
U.S. formed policy.
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And so we think that's something
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that could actually
hopefully be beneficial.
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Yeah, that's good. And you know,
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all American citizens
and I think the citizens
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of other
countries around the world
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that value religious
freedom can be encouraged
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that the United
States is consistently
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taking the task of
sort of being a watchdog
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on religious
liberty around the world.
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I mean, the U.S. cannot
be the world's policeman,
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I think that's a
bit of a misnomer.
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Absolutely. But it's
a large enough country
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and you can debate its
influence I think in the world
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that it might be a little
bit on the wane at the moment
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but still a predominant country
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and so if the
U.S. speaks favorably
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and forcibly for
religious freedom,
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I think that
carries a lot of weight.
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Now, I completely agree
and it's the right thing to do
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and it sets a good example
for some of the other countries
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that are not as
progressive on that front.
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So in another program, in
other time I'd like to talk
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about religion
during the political season,
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yeah, the presidential season
00:10:18.56\00:10:20.35
but I know at the moment
things are sort of frozen.
00:10:20.36\00:10:24.80
Right. But looking
ahead what do you see,
00:10:24.81\00:10:27.61
some of the-- maybe rather than
00:10:27.62\00:10:30.45
what you see
coming up legislatively.
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What opportunities do you
think we have to participate
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in the dynamic in Washington
for religious freedom?
00:10:36.90\00:10:40.15
You know, what
entities we can make with
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and who were some
of the major players
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that have impressed you?
00:10:45.23\00:10:46.46
Well, I think what
viewers should really understand
00:10:46.47\00:10:50.00
is that they can
actually make a difference
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because even in Washington,
00:10:51.63\00:10:53.81
even though regardless of the
problems that they might have,
00:10:53.82\00:10:57.09
they still want to
know what's happening
00:10:57.10\00:10:58.47
at the grassroots level.
00:10:58.48\00:10:59.83
And so when issues
of religious freedom
00:10:59.84\00:11:02.13
or other things that
are important to you come up
00:11:02.14\00:11:04.87
you should
absolutely not hesitate
00:11:04.88\00:11:06.56
to contact your representative
and make your voice be heard.
00:11:06.57\00:11:10.62
That's a good point.
You know, the dealings
00:11:10.63\00:11:13.52
I have had now that
you've found it out.
00:11:13.53\00:11:14.93
They pay big attention and
often in different meetings
00:11:14.94\00:11:17.50
they'll quote just
a handful of letters
00:11:17.51\00:11:19.60
that they've got in, it
catches their attention.
00:11:19.61\00:11:21.71
They really do
because what happens
00:11:21.72\00:11:22.75
is that people will write
and you might get a standard
00:11:22.76\00:11:25.44
formal letter back but people,
00:11:25.45\00:11:26.78
they actually
really do track that
00:11:26.79\00:11:28.25
because they
really wanna have a sense
00:11:28.26\00:11:30.13
for what's going on
with their constituency
00:11:30.14\00:11:32.00
and if something upsets
you, you should absolutely call,
00:11:32.01\00:11:34.79
write, email and they
really will take that seriously.
00:11:34.80\00:11:37.70
Yeah, very good.
Now I'm sure already
00:11:37.71\00:11:41.57
you're being in,
you're becoming involved
00:11:41.58\00:11:43.68
in a bunch of maybe not
so much formal committees
00:11:43.69\00:11:50.48
or anything but there
are a lot of advisories
00:11:50.49\00:11:52.79
and avenues for
someone like yourself to become
00:11:52.80\00:11:56.88
involved in the
Washington seat right.
00:11:56.89\00:11:59.15
Well, one of the
things, that's very useful
00:11:59.16\00:12:00.97
is working with other
people who have similar interest
00:12:00.98\00:12:04.28
in protecting religious freedom
00:12:04.29\00:12:05.98
and so representing our church
and our interest to say that,
00:12:05.99\00:12:09.20
well, we wanna protect the
rights of religion everywhere,
00:12:09.21\00:12:13.51
but also to make sure
that within our own church
00:12:13.52\00:12:15.67
that we have a voice
and a seat at the table.
00:12:15.68\00:12:18.38
Yeah, and I'm sure
you'll always make it clear
00:12:18.39\00:12:21.18
to these contacts
that you're representing
00:12:21.19\00:12:23.07
the Seventh-day
Adventist Church.
00:12:23.08\00:12:24.21
Absolutely. I'm
still a little bit mused
00:12:24.22\00:12:27.45
a few years ago and I
won't name the individual
00:12:27.46\00:12:29.78
but there is fairly
prominent Seventh-day Adventist.
00:12:29.79\00:12:35.08
Who was actually
socially involved
00:12:35.09\00:12:37.34
in the Washington area
00:12:37.35\00:12:38.36
and knew some of the
very high level people
00:12:38.37\00:12:40.85
and I quizzed him publicly once.
00:12:40.86\00:12:42.53
I said, do these people know
you're a Seventh-day Adventist
00:12:42.54\00:12:44.98
and he couldn't give a
definitive answer on that.
00:12:44.99\00:12:47.03
Well, now, well, that's-- Yeah.
00:12:47.98\00:12:49.00
That's not something
that I'm trying to do.
00:12:49.01\00:12:50.88
No, I know. That
I'm just bringing it up
00:12:50.89\00:12:52.78
because I know that
you're very upfront.
00:12:52.79\00:12:56.56
You know, there's one
thing to be personally
00:12:56.57\00:12:58.95
connected into the
network, which you will become.
00:12:58.96\00:13:02.67
But the bottom line
on this is to witness,
00:13:02.68\00:13:05.20
witness for
Christianity and the values,
00:13:05.21\00:13:09.75
the dignity of an
individual, the worship
00:13:09.76\00:13:11.64
or not worship
God as they moved.
00:13:11.65\00:13:13.29
Right. I mean
obviously it's a disaster
00:13:13.30\00:13:17.04
for that individual if they
choose not to acknowledge God
00:13:17.05\00:13:19.90
but we can't force
them into it. Absolutely.
00:13:19.91\00:13:22.71
But we need to create
the environment where--
00:13:22.72\00:13:25.64
And to be an effective witness--
00:13:25.65\00:13:27.23
So the people when they
hear Seventh-day Adventist
00:13:27.24\00:13:29.59
and they hear what we're doing
00:13:29.60\00:13:31.06
that we provide a
positive witness to the world.
00:13:31.07\00:13:33.65
We'll be back
after a short break
00:13:33.66\00:13:35.69
and I'll continue this
discussion with Dwayne Leslie.
00:13:35.70\00:13:38.08
One hundred years a long time
00:13:47.08\00:13:49.74
to do anything much
less publish a magazine.
00:13:49.75\00:13:52.88
But this year Liberty the
Seventh-day Adventist voice
00:13:52.89\00:13:56.31
to religious
freedom celebrates 100 years
00:13:56.32\00:13:59.35
of doing what it does best.
00:13:59.36\00:14:01.19
Collecting,
analyzing, and reporting
00:14:01.20\00:14:03.78
the ebb and flow of religious
expression around the world.
00:14:03.79\00:14:07.32
Issue after
issue, Liberty has taken
00:14:07.33\00:14:09.99
on the tough assignments,
tracking down threads
00:14:10.00\00:14:12.48
to religious freedom and
exposing the work of the devil
00:14:12.49\00:14:15.04
in every corner of the globe.
00:14:15.05\00:14:17.25
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:14:17.26\00:14:20.07
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom issues
00:14:20.08\00:14:22.71
sequestered within a
church community itself
00:14:22.72\00:14:25.07
have been clearly
and honestly exposed.
00:14:25.08\00:14:27.95
Liberty exists for one purpose.
00:14:27.96\00:14:30.37
To help God's people
maintain that all important
00:14:30.38\00:14:33.46
separation of church
and state while recognizing
00:14:33.47\00:14:36.53
the dangers
inherent in such a struggle.
00:14:36.54\00:14:39.41
During the past
century, Liberty has experienced
00:14:39.42\00:14:41.89
challenges of its own
but it remains on the job.
00:14:41.90\00:14:45.60
Thanks to the
inspired leadership
00:14:45.61\00:14:47.25
of a long line of
dedicated Adventist editors.
00:14:47.26\00:14:49.93
Three of whom
represent almost half
00:14:49.94\00:14:51.55
of the publication's existence
00:14:51.56\00:14:53.40
and the foresight of a
little woman from New England.
00:14:53.41\00:14:56.59
One hundred years of struggle,
100 hundred of victories.
00:14:56.60\00:15:00.92
Religious freedom isn't
just about political machines
00:15:00.93\00:15:03.89
and cultural
prejudices it's about people
00:15:03.90\00:15:07.54
fighting for the right
to serve the God they love
00:15:07.55\00:15:10.64
as their hearts and
the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:15:10.65\00:15:14.04
Thanks to the
prayers and generous support
00:15:14.05\00:15:16.00
of Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere.
00:15:16.01\00:15:18.37
Liberty will continue
to accomplish its work
00:15:18.38\00:15:20.72
of providing timely information,
00:15:20.73\00:15:22.54
spirit-filled inspiration
and heaven sent encouragement
00:15:22.55\00:15:25.88
to all who long to live and
work in a world bound together
00:15:25.89\00:15:30.64
by the God ordained
bonds of religious freedom.
00:15:30.65\00:15:34.83
Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:15:45.07\00:15:47.17
Before the break I was
talking with guest Dwayne Leslie
00:15:47.18\00:15:50.28
about his work in Washington.
00:15:50.29\00:15:52.93
And you're the
legislative liaison
00:15:52.94\00:15:54.74
for the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
00:15:54.75\00:15:56.88
World
Headquarters to Washington.
00:15:56.89\00:15:59.61
Let's go sort of
globally for the moment.
00:15:59.62\00:16:01.91
You know, there
some global issues
00:16:01.92\00:16:03.17
that definitely come up
in discussion in Washington
00:16:03.18\00:16:07.13
even though the
congress and senator,
00:16:07.14\00:16:09.32
intensively you're
dealing with U.S. governance,
00:16:09.33\00:16:11.43
it's amazing how much of
the concern is international.
00:16:11.44\00:16:15.34
But I'd like to talk with
you for a moment about a trend
00:16:15.35\00:16:19.05
that we've seen
going back some decades now
00:16:19.06\00:16:22.23
in France for example,
00:16:22.24\00:16:23.31
where we had a
minister of religion
00:16:23.32\00:16:25.94
who had very clear
cut prejudiced ideas
00:16:25.95\00:16:28.78
on some other
religions beyond his own.
00:16:28.79\00:16:31.14
And they started
registering all the religions
00:16:31.15\00:16:34.37
or sects as they
call them. S-E-C-T-S.
00:16:34.38\00:16:39.20
And Seventh-day
Adventist were registered.
00:16:39.21\00:16:41.49
Some like Jehovah's
Witnesses were deregistered.
00:16:41.50\00:16:44.23
And that had huge
implications for the real
00:16:44.24\00:16:48.58
everyday freedom of
religions to operate.
00:16:48.59\00:16:51.46
Is that phenomenon finished?
00:16:51.47\00:16:53.43
No, actually I think
what we're actually seeing
00:16:53.44\00:16:55.36
is that's being exported
to other countries in Europe.
00:16:55.37\00:16:58.66
Now, some people say, it's
done on a coordinated basis.
00:16:58.67\00:17:01.33
Some say it's a coincidence,
00:17:01.34\00:17:03.02
but what we're
finding is that the same,
00:17:03.03\00:17:06.62
if you look at
the laws in France,
00:17:06.63\00:17:08.33
which have now
go over to Belgium.
00:17:08.34\00:17:10.71
You have a very
similar law over there
00:17:10.72\00:17:12.66
and what we're
seeing are many laws
00:17:12.67\00:17:14.81
that are one anti-sect and
two anti-religion in general.
00:17:14.82\00:17:18.41
And that's something in
our office we're very concerned
00:17:18.42\00:17:20.69
about and we're watching and
we wanna speak out against it.
00:17:20.70\00:17:23.70
And in some ways, I
mean, it can be discussed
00:17:23.71\00:17:26.29
from several
angles but I almost see
00:17:26.30\00:17:28.01
this is a backdoor way to have
00:17:28.02\00:17:30.09
an established
government authorized church
00:17:30.10\00:17:33.34
because hugely this
is a religious majority
00:17:33.35\00:17:35.37
or religious
entities that the church,
00:17:35.38\00:17:39.43
that the state looks
favorably upon. Right.
00:17:39.44\00:17:41.62
And then I start
to showing others
00:17:41.63\00:17:44.55
that they suspect for
any number of reasons.
00:17:44.56\00:17:47.22
But the end
effect is that one group
00:17:47.23\00:17:49.79
or at best a few
groups are very favored
00:17:49.80\00:17:53.17
by the government and
others are restricted.
00:17:53.18\00:17:56.24
Right, 'cause I think
we would be very concern
00:17:56.25\00:17:57.87
in some case it's economic issue
00:17:57.88\00:18:00.13
because where you
have, in some countries
00:18:00.14\00:18:02.00
where there is
economic support given,
00:18:02.01\00:18:04.30
they don't want people to leave
00:18:04.31\00:18:05.56
because that's lesser
money that they would get.
00:18:05.57\00:18:07.70
Yes, and this is something
00:18:07.71\00:18:09.06
that we'd mentioned
on this program before
00:18:09.07\00:18:10.64
but people need
to realize religious,
00:18:10.65\00:18:13.31
well, religious
liberty in its pure
00:18:13.32\00:18:15.32
theoretical form
is truly spiritual.
00:18:15.33\00:18:17.94
But how it's
administrated in countries,
00:18:17.95\00:18:21.02
religious
persecution is the, you know,
00:18:21.03\00:18:22.85
is the antithesis
of religious freedom.
00:18:22.86\00:18:25.70
But it's usually not as
simple as, I hate your religion,
00:18:25.71\00:18:28.57
I'm going to punish you.
00:18:28.58\00:18:30.33
It is usually
political considerations.
00:18:30.34\00:18:33.13
It is usually economic things.
00:18:33.14\00:18:34.90
There's geopolitical things,
maybe patterns of immigration--
00:18:34.91\00:18:41.44
Right. Can sort of
stir off religious sentiment
00:18:41.45\00:18:44.58
against our former group.
00:18:44.59\00:18:46.04
Because you see that sometime's
00:18:46.05\00:18:47.14
anti-proselytizing legislation--
00:18:47.15\00:18:50.72
which is often
closely tied to anti-sect
00:18:50.73\00:18:53.13
because when you
read some of the specifics
00:18:53.14\00:18:55.16
of these legislations
you'll see them talk about,
00:18:55.17\00:18:58.21
you know, brainwashing
or mental manipulation
00:18:58.22\00:19:02.47
and anything that would
sort of take people away
00:19:02.48\00:19:05.09
from the majority
religion of that state.
00:19:05.10\00:19:08.45
Well, I remember in
Sri Lanka a few years ago
00:19:08.46\00:19:10.75
with Dr. John Grates, who,
you know, with his associate--
00:19:10.76\00:19:13.38
Yeah. He and I visited Sri Lanka
00:19:13.39\00:19:15.29
and they were in the
process of passing a law
00:19:15.30\00:19:17.52
which I don't think
ever truly got ratified.
00:19:17.53\00:19:20.05
It was declared
unconstitutional at one point.
00:19:20.06\00:19:23.22
But it was actually
imposing at it's maximum point
00:19:23.23\00:19:25.85
a death penalty for a
coercion or coerced conversion,
00:19:25.86\00:19:31.61
but everything rode
on what was coercion.
00:19:31.62\00:19:33.99
Well, right,
because if you were to have
00:19:34.00\00:19:36.17
an evangelistic
crusade and people come in
00:19:36.18\00:19:38.72
and were to get
baptized and convert over.
00:19:38.73\00:19:41.93
Is that
coercion? Is it not? And--
00:19:41.94\00:19:43.73
Yeah, in the way we read it,
00:19:43.74\00:19:45.79
yes, they would
say it was coercion
00:19:45.80\00:19:47.04
because you had
been offered enticements.
00:19:47.05\00:19:49.44
If you were enticed
and we like to think--
00:19:49.45\00:19:53.86
And it's often seen that someone
00:19:53.87\00:19:55.17
that comes out of a
new religious background
00:19:55.18\00:19:57.84
maybe with
Seventh-day Adventist Church
00:19:57.85\00:20:00.34
has good health
reform principles--
00:20:00.35\00:20:02.18
Right. So when they
change their lifestyle
00:20:02.19\00:20:04.56
as well as their
religious allegiance
00:20:04.57\00:20:06.14
they usually improve
their personal state.
00:20:06.15\00:20:08.44
They're more responsible.
00:20:08.45\00:20:10.68
They often improve
themselves economically.
00:20:10.69\00:20:12.55
Well, in Sri Lanka that
would be just proved positive
00:20:12.56\00:20:15.48
that you had been
offered an enticement
00:20:15.49\00:20:17.58
to a wealthier way
of life to leave your--
00:20:17.59\00:20:21.66
the religion of your birth--
00:20:21.67\00:20:22.84
And that's-- And in that country
00:20:22.85\00:20:24.02
the religion of your
birth was seen to be synonymous
00:20:24.03\00:20:26.28
with the integrity of the state.
00:20:26.29\00:20:28.73
Right, and that's, that's
really one of the problems
00:20:28.74\00:20:31.37
because again
that's-- most religions,
00:20:31.38\00:20:34.48
that's how they
often bring new people in.
00:20:34.49\00:20:36.78
And that's really protection,
00:20:36.79\00:20:40.61
protection of religious freedom,
00:20:40.62\00:20:41.99
because we
can't have a situation
00:20:42.00\00:20:43.86
where people don't
have the freedom to go
00:20:43.87\00:20:46.19
from one religion to the next.
00:20:46.20\00:20:47.77
Absolutely. Now you're
starting to give examples
00:20:47.78\00:20:51.73
of where we see
this registration
00:20:51.74\00:20:53.40
process working
unfavorably. Right.
00:20:53.41\00:20:55.38
What's one of
the more recent cases
00:20:55.39\00:20:56.92
that you can bring them out?
00:20:56.93\00:20:57.93
one of the things that is
of great significant right now
00:20:57.94\00:21:01.41
is what's going on in
the country of Hungary.
00:21:01.42\00:21:03.73
Hungary passed a law
that was very anti-religion
00:21:03.74\00:21:07.28
and resulted in the
deregistration of 344 churches
00:21:07.29\00:21:13.23
and religious groups including
00:21:13.24\00:21:14.48
the Seventh-day
Adventist Church.
00:21:14.49\00:21:16.17
We're very concerned about it.
00:21:16.18\00:21:17.68
And the net result is
that only 14 religions maintain
00:21:17.69\00:21:21.13
their legal status and now
those that were "deregistered"
00:21:21.14\00:21:25.76
now have to
submit an application,
00:21:25.77\00:21:27.55
a quite vigorous application
and then that application
00:21:27.56\00:21:31.06
must get voted on by
the Hungarian Parliament.
00:21:31.07\00:21:34.58
Now what is some of the--
let's just look at it closely.
00:21:34.59\00:21:37.26
They're deregistered,
what does that mean
00:21:37.27\00:21:38.84
immediately what
happens? What other things--
00:21:38.85\00:21:40.86
Well, the law is
passed but they are still,
00:21:40.87\00:21:44.67
it's not
completely enacted just yet
00:21:44.68\00:21:46.26
and so that's why in
interim we're trying to--
00:21:46.27\00:21:48.61
Okay. Put some
political pressure.
00:21:48.62\00:21:49.87
Let say, say the
deregistration continues
00:21:49.88\00:21:52.12
and under the law
you're not recognized anymore
00:21:52.13\00:21:55.47
as an official
religion what would that mean?
00:21:55.48\00:21:58.27
Well, one of the
first issues really would be
00:21:58.28\00:22:01.17
what we call tax exemption here.
00:22:01.18\00:22:03.98
And then you would also
have certain limitations
00:22:03.99\00:22:06.92
on your freedom of assembly.
00:22:06.93\00:22:09.09
In this country
obviously recognized churches
00:22:09.10\00:22:11.47
have the ability
to do certain things
00:22:11.48\00:22:13.51
but if you're not
a recognized church.
00:22:13.52\00:22:15.13
Again back to the evangelism,
00:22:15.14\00:22:16.74
the state could very easily say,
00:22:16.75\00:22:18.75
you can't hold a public meeting
00:22:18.76\00:22:22.01
because you're not
a recognized entity.
00:22:22.02\00:22:24.21
Well, they
probably would say that,
00:22:24.22\00:22:25.33
very few people realize
even in the United States
00:22:25.34\00:22:29.37
that there are
quite severe restrictions
00:22:29.38\00:22:30.97
on large
meetings if you don't have
00:22:30.98\00:22:34.80
an accepted meeting place
or if you don't have parking--
00:22:34.81\00:22:38.05
Right. There's
so many regulations
00:22:38.06\00:22:39.43
we've had many
articles in Liberty
00:22:39.44\00:22:41.49
where just
Bible studies in homes
00:22:41.50\00:22:43.11
if they've seen
negatively by the neighbors
00:22:43.12\00:22:45.60
they can invoke
any number of laws
00:22:45.61\00:22:47.27
that can drive
you out of existence.
00:22:47.28\00:22:48.67
Exactly, and you
wanna have those protections
00:22:48.68\00:22:50.86
that are in place because
if you don't have any status,
00:22:50.87\00:22:54.06
then you really have no rights.
00:22:54.07\00:22:55.38
So, basically you're
legally marginalized.
00:22:55.39\00:22:57.84
Exactly. On any
number of fronts.
00:22:57.85\00:23:00.69
In the workplace some of the
members of that church would,
00:23:00.70\00:23:03.65
could be, well, they
could be acted against
00:23:03.66\00:23:08.74
in a prejudicial
way, sort of marginalized
00:23:08.75\00:23:10.64
and treated as a prier.
00:23:10.65\00:23:12.49
So very soon, we've seen
in number of countries that,
00:23:12.50\00:23:15.79
well, it may not be that
they're rounding people up
00:23:15.80\00:23:18.21
or putting them in prison,
but over a number of years,
00:23:18.22\00:23:21.60
people just sort of drift away
00:23:21.61\00:23:22.78
and the
organization ceases to exist.
00:23:22.79\00:23:24.53
Right. And it's unfortunate
because Adventist Church
00:23:24.54\00:23:26.76
in Hungary has been in
existence for over 100 years.
00:23:26.77\00:23:30.01
While it's small,
about 5,000 members
00:23:30.02\00:23:33.32
and the government
has assured us that,
00:23:33.33\00:23:35.45
oh, you know, we're
not really targeting you,
00:23:35.46\00:23:38.40
you'll be okay
but the problem is
00:23:38.41\00:23:40.99
we're still a minority religion
00:23:41.00\00:23:42.43
and we've to
stand for the rights
00:23:42.44\00:23:43.80
of other minority
religions in their country.
00:23:43.81\00:23:45.58
Who are they targeting?
00:23:45.59\00:23:46.72
What do you thinks
behind the Hungary situation?
00:23:46.73\00:23:49.60
But again I
think it's very similar
00:23:49.61\00:23:50.62
to what we're saying in France
and Belgium. It's the "sects."
00:23:50.63\00:23:54.46
The small religions that they
feel are possibly subversive
00:23:54.47\00:23:58.52
and their stated goal is
that many of their religions
00:23:58.53\00:24:01.79
that got approved
status were really shammed
00:24:01.80\00:24:04.80
or ways for people to
get a financial or tax break.
00:24:04.81\00:24:08.67
You've got me. Even I read
pretty much on these things
00:24:08.68\00:24:12.05
but I can't, thinking
back on the articles I've read,
00:24:12.06\00:24:14.92
I can't remember that Hungary
particularly is suffering
00:24:14.93\00:24:17.74
under the recent immigration
00:24:17.75\00:24:20.48
from the Middle
East and other countries.
00:24:20.49\00:24:22.67
Is that what's troubling them?
00:24:22.68\00:24:24.35
I don't think that what it is.
00:24:24.36\00:24:25.47
I think what happened is
there was a shift politically
00:24:25.48\00:24:27.57
in the country and
so the new government
00:24:27.58\00:24:29.58
they came in and
the political party
00:24:29.59\00:24:32.40
is much more conservative
00:24:32.41\00:24:33.98
and there's a
strong Catholic influence--
00:24:33.99\00:24:36.28
Well, that's what
I was fishing for.
00:24:36.29\00:24:37.44
It's either an
established church influence
00:24:37.45\00:24:39.93
or a fear of immigration
of another religious entities,
00:24:39.94\00:24:44.34
so this it. Right.
00:24:44.35\00:24:45.79
And you know it's not
confined to the Catholic Church.
00:24:45.80\00:24:47.57
Another area is
the Eastern Orthodox
00:24:47.58\00:24:50.21
which has always, often had a,
00:24:50.22\00:24:52.88
before communism
particularly in Eastern Europe
00:24:52.89\00:24:55.19
had a cozy
relationship with the state.
00:24:55.20\00:24:56.82
It's sort of coming now
into a new sense of power.
00:24:56.83\00:25:00.26
You know, we're
the privileged church
00:25:00.27\00:25:01.55
and we'll restrict the others--
00:25:01.56\00:25:02.84
Right. And so they
moved into the government
00:25:02.85\00:25:04.83
and the next thing deregulate
00:25:04.84\00:25:07.23
or deregistering other churches.
00:25:07.24\00:25:09.42
Yeah, and to now go
through that process
00:25:09.43\00:25:11.13
and to submit a
form and basically have
00:25:11.14\00:25:14.00
government officials
and members of parliaments.
00:25:14.01\00:25:15.77
So now it's
politicized, making, you know,
00:25:15.78\00:25:19.33
what is an appropriate religion
00:25:19.34\00:25:21.49
and that's really unfortunate.
00:25:21.50\00:25:22.72
So I think the best,
one of the best things
00:25:22.73\00:25:24.89
that we can do at
least theologically
00:25:24.90\00:25:26.84
or philosophically is to
explain to these countries
00:25:26.85\00:25:29.96
the value to the citizenry to
accept this general principle,
00:25:29.97\00:25:35.43
the individual has the
right and should have the right
00:25:35.44\00:25:38.64
and are most free
when they can accept
00:25:38.65\00:25:41.04
or reject any
religious identity on their own,
00:25:41.05\00:25:44.22
not have the government or
even another church tell him.
00:25:44.23\00:25:47.16
Absolutely and
so one of the things
00:25:47.17\00:25:49.21
that we're doing on
that front is meeting
00:25:49.22\00:25:51.41
with representatives of
the Hungarian Government
00:25:51.42\00:25:53.61
both at the United
Nation, U.N. Mission
00:25:53.62\00:25:56.13
and then also with
their embassy here.
00:25:56.14\00:25:58.76
I've had meetings
with the State Department
00:25:58.77\00:26:00.83
talking to the
about our concerns
00:26:00.84\00:26:02.41
both from our
church's prospective
00:26:02.42\00:26:04.42
and then also for
the other church's--
00:26:04.43\00:26:05.86
So we have ongoing dialogs
00:26:05.87\00:26:07.77
that really can make a
difference in this situation.
00:26:07.78\00:26:10.03
Right, because in that situation
00:26:10.04\00:26:11.41
that's one of the
things I really try to do
00:26:11.42\00:26:13.60
is to go out and talk
on behalf of our church,
00:26:13.61\00:26:17.62
so that we can, people can hear
00:26:17.63\00:26:20.17
what's going on internationally.
00:26:20.18\00:26:21.86
I can explain our concerns
and really try to make it
00:26:21.87\00:26:26.05
so that everyone understands
00:26:26.06\00:26:27.46
that the protection
of religious freedom
00:26:27.47\00:26:29.53
is of the utmost importance,
00:26:29.54\00:26:31.62
because it's a fundamental right
00:26:31.63\00:26:33.56
and it also degrades
Hungary's status internationally
00:26:33.57\00:26:38.03
as a country that
really should be standing
00:26:38.04\00:26:40.47
for human rights
and the protection
00:26:40.48\00:26:42.78
of religious
freedom for everyone.
00:26:42.79\00:26:44.75
And so we're gonna be very busy
00:26:44.76\00:26:46.74
in our department
trying to dig that.
00:26:46.75\00:26:48.58
Of all of the
fantastical stories
00:26:50.47\00:26:52.48
that I find in the
Bible, none is more amazing
00:26:52.49\00:26:55.38
than the story of Daniel.
00:26:55.39\00:26:57.19
How this man could
be the trusted confidant
00:26:57.20\00:27:01.19
of a succession
of kings, despots,
00:27:01.20\00:27:03.77
rulers of the known world and
not just different individuals
00:27:03.78\00:27:08.54
but different regimes,
whole different people,
00:27:08.55\00:27:10.78
the Medes and the Persians
00:27:10.79\00:27:11.86
came in and
replaced the Babylonians.
00:27:11.87\00:27:15.00
How did he do this? It
seems to me he did this
00:27:15.01\00:27:18.10
because he was true to himself
00:27:18.11\00:27:19.91
and to his God, not just a,
00:27:19.92\00:27:22.59
yes ma'am to whatever the
political entities require.
00:27:22.60\00:27:26.22
We have that same
need today as people relate
00:27:26.23\00:27:29.87
on behalf of faith
entities, on behalf of a church
00:27:29.88\00:27:33.13
such as the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
00:27:33.14\00:27:34.96
and we have a
liaison in Washington.
00:27:34.97\00:27:37.68
Dwayne Leslie is
the man at the moment
00:27:37.69\00:27:40.38
and Dwayne and his predecessors
00:27:40.39\00:27:42.70
and those like him will succeed
00:27:42.71\00:27:44.42
only if they are true
to the faith imperative.
00:27:44.43\00:27:48.13
They're not there to
conspire with secular leaders.
00:27:48.14\00:27:51.97
They are there to present
their faith to these leaders
00:27:51.98\00:27:55.78
who need to know
what faith is all about.
00:27:55.79\00:27:57.98
They need to know that
the same God can help them
00:27:57.99\00:28:01.05
and they need to
know that the person
00:28:01.06\00:28:02.53
they're dealing with
is a man of integrity.
00:28:02.54\00:28:04.91
This is Lincoln
Steed for Liberty Insider.
00:28:06.54\00:28:09.91