Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
that brings you up-to-date
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news, views and discussion
on religious freedom issues
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in the United States
and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on the program is
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Melissa Reid, Associate
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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Yes, it's pleasure to
be here with you today--
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So we often know what the others
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working on and thinking,
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but for the
benefit of our viewers
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I'm gonna point
you toward a topic
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for this program. Okay.
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Not too long ago,
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there was a very
special program held by
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the International
Religious Liberty Association.
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Yeah. In Sydney, Australia.
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Yes. You were
there, I was there.
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There were about
20, 25 other people.
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It was the meeting of experts
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organized by the
IRLA. Right, right.
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It was such an opportunity
for me to be able to attend.
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I was appreciative of that.
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It made me feel like I
wanted to go back to school
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to be involved in that sort of--
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It was held at the Law Building
at the University of Sydney.
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Right, right.
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So it did have a school
environment, didn't it--
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Yes, yes, and
papers were presented
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and anything like that so
it was, I really enjoyed it.
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I remember when I first started
working with Liberty Magazine.
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I think it's been
about eight years ago now.
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We had an event
down in Richmond,
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which was similar as far
as papers being presented
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and whatever and that was to me
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just a really great crash course
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into the issues
of religious freedom,
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it reminded me of that again.
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Well, you know, I
have to say something,
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you know, I look at the camera
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and I see a young
guy, even see hair on.
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But it was a little
off putting together
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University of Sydney and to
walk there in the quadrangle,
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in front of the
building and I would think
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who are all these preteens. Yes.
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Well if makes you
feeling like that,
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I thought the same thing. Yes.
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I commented to other
people and they reminded me
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'cause, like you said we
were on the law school campus,
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but they reminded
me and as Australia,
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you probably can affirm this,
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that you actually
don't do undergraduate,
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and then do law school,
you go straight to law school,
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so they actually were a
little bit younger than--
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Well, they weren't
all law students there,
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the law university
students-- Yes, yes--
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And, you know,
together with the airline pilots
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and the bus drivers and so on,
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they've got inordinately
young of life. Yes, yes--
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But it was good to
be in that environment
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to sort of latch on to
the energy, university campus.
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And yes as an Australian,
that's where I grow up,
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live there till I 16 and
then work there a little later,
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it was good together back
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and sort of
re-culturated again. Right.
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To make up a word. Right.
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But I think it was a good
choice and been another others,
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in fact the last meeting
of experts was in Jordan,
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as I remember, so Dr. John Grats
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organizing the IRLA is
held these very diverse places.
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Yes, yes.
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And he always
has various themes.
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And so what was
theme with this one?
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Right, right, well, it
was the threat of secularism
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on religious freedom.
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And the effect and it
was really interesting
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as you mentioned there
was about 25 presenters
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and I think they represented
like 12 different countries.
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And it was really
interesting to hear
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sort of the
effect of secularism on,
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you know, religious
freedom within various,
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and varied regions
or continents even.
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And there was a certain irony,
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I presented something
really wasn't secularism,
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per se, it was
security in the United States,
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post 9/11. Yes.
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And I know that very well,
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but there was a
certain irony of Australia,
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in Australia talking
about American situation.
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But secularism sort
of probably in a way,
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what was your take
on this discussion?
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Is there a real
threat from secularism?
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Well, I thought
that it was interesting
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and may be a little sad,
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that the majority
of the conversation
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dealt with Islam and Secularism.
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And I think that's because
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Islam is a sort of
the vibrant religion
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as far as growth right now.
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At least in Europe, and
we talked a bit about it
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as far as Australia,
but it didn't seem like
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it was so much
threat Christianity
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because unfortunately
Christianity doesn't seem
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to have the growth.
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Well, I still
from another program
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where I want to
about to talk about this.
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One day, well, I
was in Australia,
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I went to one of
the beach resorts
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and I struck up a conversation
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with a Coptic Egyptian
woman, obviously from Egypt.
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And we talked about
Islam and Coptic Christians
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the old Christian
community in Egypt.
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Now any about 20%
of the population,
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but they used to be the majority
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before Islam. Right.
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And they have great
antagonisms with Islam
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and she made an
interesting comment.
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She told me
what you noticed that
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Islam is growing relatively,
rapidly in Australia,
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I mean, it's still
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an extremely small minority
of the population. Right, right
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But in years
slightly proceeding 9/11
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to the present has been
an explosion of the numbers.
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And I said, you know,
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what's the appeal of Islam to,
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for want of a better word,
indigenous or at least not,
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they're not really indigenous,
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but the Australians. Sure.
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Which are mostly English
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if not European
background. Right.
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And she said, well, she said,
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"Here religion
is being destroyed,
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these people have
no real religious point
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of reference anymore,
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it's just a
secular society." Yes.
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And she says,
"they're very vulnerable
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to any new
religion coming along."
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And that, so they don't
have, which is good on a level,
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they don't have prejudice. Yes.
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But they don't have
knowledge to judge it correctly,
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so they're believing
into it rapidly. Yeah.
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You know, we're
dancing on the knife edge
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here on this program.
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We're not
opposed to Islam. Right.
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Now more than the
United States government
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exemplified recently
by President Obama says,
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"America is not
a war with Islam,
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we're at war with
no religion." Right.
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But there's no question
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that when we talk
about religious liberty,
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there's an inordinate amount
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at the moment of
Islamic countries
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and Islamic societies
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that are acting
in very prejudicial,
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even violent ways
toward non-believers. Right.
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And that shouldn't be allowed,
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I'm not gonna give
them a pass on that.
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Right. I think that's wrong.
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No, no, no I guess
it was interesting to me
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or disappointing to
me, because as a Christian,
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I really believe
that, you know, my faith,
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my beliefs are-- Of course.
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Are correct-- And we
grant that to Muslims
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and Buddhists and so on.
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Everybody has to be, in
fact what's the statement,
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persuaded in their
own mind. Yes, yes.
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And we're called
as followers of Christ
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to share those beliefs
with others. Absolutely.
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So I, it's just
a bit discourage--
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And it's problematic in a
normally Christian culture
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to see people
living in large numbers
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to anything else.
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Certainly in a Muslim society,
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they get ballistic when they see
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people moving away. Right.
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So what explains
it, and this, I think
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that was as good
an explanation as any.
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So in a certain way,
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secularism is the
culprit there. Yeah, yeah.
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Secularism is denatured there,
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sensibility to
really critically evaluate.
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Right. As they once did.
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Well, and as visiting Australia
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as an American, it
was also interesting,
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I mean, our nation,
you know, whether or not
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we were founded as
a Christian nation.
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We were certainly
founded by Christians
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and we have a very
Protestant sort of,
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you know, jumping
off point as far as our,
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you know, our laws and our,
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you know, dominant
religion and things like that.
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Where as Australia, you
very much in that society,
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it seems like, you're
making room for religion,
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you know, it's the
exception rather than the rule.
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And so I certainly saw that,
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one of the very
interesting presentations
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that we saw was the
Attorney General, Greg Smith
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from New South Wales came
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and gave a very interesting
sort of history lesson.
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And he is a person of
some open faith, I mean. Yes.
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He was not neutral on this,
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but he gave a good
historical explanation--
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Yeah, yeah, and I
just really felt like
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that was so interesting,
it was such a contrast
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to United States as
far as, you know, really,
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you know, that
secular emphasis and--
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Well, you know-- Dominance.
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I'll come to the defense,
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not that you're
attacking Australia,
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but you can come
across to Australia
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as not got the right
attitude toward religion
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or could be a suspect attitude.
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He did say, or I think he said,
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but, I know, it was
said during the conference
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pointed out the
Australian constitution
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has the guarantee
of religious freedom
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and separation of
state and those clauses
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in that constitution
were directly lifted
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from the United States
constitution. Okay, yes, yes.
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And there's also
an interesting history
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that I can't give fine
details of at the moment,
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but I know that when
that was being formulated,
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it was Seventh-Day Adventist,
who helped push that home.
00:09:23.27\00:09:28.37
Because Adventists
in the United States
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had already battled that through
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and were comfortable
with the first amendment
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guarantee of
separation of church and state--
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Yes, no and I felt like,
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you know, the
Australian constitution
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absolutely
provides religious freedom
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for its citizens,
but I just thought
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it was an interesting sort
of the perspective was different
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as far as where they
were coming from rather--
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The perspective is
mostly sociologically by view,
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the society has
turned against religion
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as default setting. Yes, yes.
00:09:58.73\00:10:02.95
They don't persecute religion
00:10:02.96\00:10:04.12
in any form or affect-- Right.
00:10:04.13\00:10:05.47
In some ways I think
they are more legal supports
00:10:05.48\00:10:09.28
for religious institutions
and practices in the US.
00:10:09.29\00:10:14.58
But the society thinks religion
00:10:14.59\00:10:17.18
should be kept in its
place, you know, it's fine,
00:10:17.19\00:10:19.64
you expect it
to a certain level,
00:10:19.65\00:10:21.14
but I don't need
it. Right, right.
00:10:21.15\00:10:22.65
And our society will go ahead
00:10:22.66\00:10:24.47
just fine with that. Right.
00:10:24.48\00:10:25.86
So there's almost,
it's not an indifference,
00:10:25.87\00:10:27.68
it's almost an antagonism
00:10:27.69\00:10:29.35
to an intrusion of
faith in the society.
00:10:29.36\00:10:32.29
Yes, that's
exactly what I noticed.
00:10:32.30\00:10:34.34
And then we have
presenters from, from Europe,
00:10:34.35\00:10:38.18
a couple from Europe, I mean,
00:10:38.19\00:10:40.38
from Spain and one from France.
00:10:40.39\00:10:43.15
And I always find
that so interesting
00:10:43.16\00:10:45.91
for readers of Liberty Magazine,
00:10:45.92\00:10:47.22
we know that we've
covered several situations
00:10:47.23\00:10:51.48
and laws with Europe,
and going back to the Muslims
00:10:51.49\00:10:56.77
and the headscarf situation,
the minarets in Switzerland
00:10:56.78\00:11:01.84
and really seeing
religious freedom diminished,
00:11:01.85\00:11:05.24
I think would be
a fair word to use.
00:11:05.25\00:11:07.18
Now even as you're
recounting what we heard there,
00:11:07.19\00:11:10.85
I certainly realize that
00:11:10.86\00:11:12.44
secularism probably
wasn't the right way
00:11:12.45\00:11:14.72
to express that discussion.
00:11:14.73\00:11:16.48
Because, I know, they've
mentioned again in France,
00:11:16.49\00:11:18.91
they have the
concept of laicite.
00:11:18.92\00:11:23.29
But that's not really
the same as secularism,
00:11:23.30\00:11:26.71
it's more religion in
its place and a society,
00:11:26.72\00:11:30.55
that functions without the,
00:11:30.56\00:11:33.07
they get a little
bit like Australia,
00:11:33.08\00:11:34.58
the intrusion of religion.
00:11:34.59\00:11:35.80
But that is not
the same as secularism,
00:11:35.81\00:11:38.02
because what I see in secularism
00:11:38.03\00:11:40.64
is its problematic form
00:11:40.65\00:11:42.45
from a point of
religious practice.
00:11:42.46\00:11:44.30
It's something a modern analogy
00:11:44.31\00:11:46.48
to the French
Revolution, where they exalted
00:11:46.49\00:11:48.51
the God of reason
and cast down religion.
00:11:48.52\00:11:52.76
What I think the secularism,
that Australia exemplifies
00:11:52.77\00:11:57.42
that they should
have been talking about
00:11:57.43\00:11:58.75
was really an
indifference to faith. Yes.
00:11:58.76\00:12:02.31
And that is problematic,
it's not an eminent danger
00:12:02.32\00:12:06.57
because it's not persecution,
you know, it's not even
00:12:06.58\00:12:09.96
a legal exclusion necessarily,
00:12:09.97\00:12:12.68
but it's the worse thing,
00:12:12.69\00:12:14.46
which we should
actually sometimes exemplify
00:12:14.47\00:12:17.20
when there's an argument.
00:12:17.21\00:12:18.30
You know, it takes two to argue,
00:12:18.31\00:12:19.82
the fight stops instantly
if one just won't participate
00:12:19.83\00:12:22.82
and that's what
frustrates religionists. Yes.
00:12:22.83\00:12:24.83
The secular, the secularist,
00:12:24.84\00:12:27.04
the secular
society more and more
00:12:27.05\00:12:28.69
is indifferent to religion.
00:12:28.70\00:12:30.42
So, in that
regard it's a threat,
00:12:30.43\00:12:33.64
but it is not an
antagonist toward religion like,
00:12:33.65\00:12:38.55
competing religions
or prejudiced attitudes
00:12:38.56\00:12:41.01
can be in a religious community.
00:12:41.02\00:12:43.44
They're not persecuting another.
00:12:43.45\00:12:45.13
Right, right, right.
00:12:45.14\00:12:47.34
We'll be back
right after a break,
00:12:47.35\00:12:48.98
to continue this
discussion of secularism
00:12:48.99\00:12:51.67
and the meeting of
experts in Australia.
00:12:51.68\00:12:54.32
One-hundred years, a
long time to do anything
00:13:02.95\00:13:06.94
much less publish a magazine,
00:13:06.95\00:13:08.82
but this year Liberty,
the Seventh-Day Adventist
00:13:08.83\00:13:11.95
voice of religious freedom,
celebrates one hundred years
00:13:11.96\00:13:15.36
of doing what it does
best, collecting, analyzing,
00:13:15.37\00:13:18.94
and reporting the ebb and flow
00:13:18.95\00:13:20.77
of religious
expression around the world.
00:13:20.78\00:13:23.37
Issue after issue.
00:13:23.38\00:13:25.10
Liberty has taken on
the tough assignments,
00:13:25.11\00:13:27.51
tracking down
threats to religious freedom
00:13:27.52\00:13:29.49
and exposing the
work of the devil
00:13:29.50\00:13:31.02
in every corner of the globe.
00:13:31.03\00:13:33.29
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:33.30\00:13:36.04
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom issues
00:13:36.05\00:13:38.78
sequestered within
the church community
00:13:38.79\00:13:40.40
itself have been
clearly and honestly exposed.
00:13:40.41\00:13:44.11
Liberty exists for one purpose,
00:13:44.12\00:13:46.36
to help God's
people maintain that
00:13:46.37\00:13:48.77
all the important
separation of Church and State,
00:13:48.78\00:13:51.54
while recognizing the dangers
inherent in such a struggle.
00:13:51.55\00:13:55.40
During the past century,
00:13:55.41\00:13:56.80
Liberty has experienced
challenges of its own,
00:13:56.81\00:13:59.41
but it remains on the job.
00:13:59.42\00:14:01.50
Thanks to the
inspired leadership
00:14:01.51\00:14:03.28
of a long line of
dedicated Adventist editors,
00:14:03.29\00:14:05.91
three of whom represent
00:14:05.92\00:14:06.89
almost half of the
publications' existence
00:14:06.90\00:14:09.20
and the foresight of a
little woman from New England.
00:14:09.21\00:14:12.66
One hundred years of struggle,
00:14:12.67\00:14:14.85
one hundred years of victories,
00:14:14.86\00:14:17.01
religious freedom isn't
just about political machines
00:14:17.02\00:14:20.03
and cultural prejudices.
00:14:20.04\00:14:21.74
It's about people,
fighting for the right
00:14:21.75\00:14:24.67
to serve the God
they love as their hearts
00:14:24.68\00:14:27.53
and the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:27.54\00:14:30.01
Thanks to the
prayers and generous support
00:14:30.02\00:14:32.00
of Seventh-Day
Adventists everywhere.
00:14:32.01\00:14:34.42
Liberty will continue
to accomplish its work
00:14:34.43\00:14:36.69
of providing timely information,
00:14:36.70\00:14:38.43
spirit filled inspiration,
00:14:38.44\00:14:40.17
and heaven sent
encouragement to all
00:14:40.18\00:14:42.59
who long to live
and work in a world
00:14:42.60\00:14:45.77
bound together by the God
00:14:45.78\00:14:47.45
ordained bonds of
religious freedom.
00:14:47.46\00:14:50.90
Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider,
00:15:00.80\00:15:02.65
before the break, I'm
with guest Melisa Reid.
00:15:02.66\00:15:06.17
We were
remembering some of the events
00:15:06.18\00:15:08.48
and presentations
in Sydney, Australia
00:15:08.49\00:15:11.21
at the Sydney University
Law School at the IRLA,
00:15:11.22\00:15:16.00
Meeting of
Experts, which was convened
00:15:16.01\00:15:18.82
under the general
topic of secularism
00:15:18.83\00:15:21.21
as a threat to
religious freedom. Right.
00:15:21.22\00:15:23.35
Now even during the
break, I was telling,
00:15:23.36\00:15:25.90
I don't see
secularism as the threat.
00:15:25.91\00:15:28.69
It is clearly a
negative dynamic,
00:15:28.70\00:15:31.81
when you talk about
religious expression because
00:15:31.82\00:15:33.95
it sort of freezes
out religious initiative.
00:15:33.96\00:15:36.84
Right. It's largely indifferent.
00:15:36.85\00:15:39.18
I don't see other
than radical communism
00:15:39.19\00:15:42.27
that secularism is
usually aggressively opposed.
00:15:42.28\00:15:46.41
Well, that was
actually one of the,
00:15:46.42\00:15:47.63
one of the
presenters, his paper was,
00:15:47.64\00:15:49.69
you know, is
secularism a neutral force.
00:15:49.70\00:15:52.65
And-- And what did
you think the conclusion?
00:15:52.66\00:15:54.93
I felt like his
conclusion was that no it isn't.
00:15:54.94\00:15:58.46
And I think I agree with that.
00:15:58.47\00:15:59.87
I think he convinced
me of that with his paper.
00:15:59.88\00:16:02.65
I think-- Which person was this?
00:16:02.66\00:16:04.58
This was the gentleman
from, from New Zealand,
00:16:04.59\00:16:07.69
the law
professor from New Zealand.
00:16:07.70\00:16:11.02
I was the one in
charge of taking notes
00:16:11.03\00:16:12.28
for that presentation so I
remember it most specifically--
00:16:12.29\00:16:14.06
Yeah, we have to, remember
00:16:14.07\00:16:15.04
I said to summarize that. Yes.
00:16:15.05\00:16:17.28
I summarize one and I,
00:16:17.29\00:16:18.64
I say this is a
melange of ideas.
00:16:18.65\00:16:22.00
So I won't even try to
come up with-- Yeah, yeah.
00:16:22.01\00:16:24.70
But that's true,
secularism is not good,
00:16:24.71\00:16:29.89
but both from
religious freedom point of view
00:16:29.90\00:16:31.77
and just a point of view
of the dynamic of any faith.
00:16:31.78\00:16:33.98
Secularism is nominalism,
00:16:33.99\00:16:36.17
it's indifferent to the
reality of faith. Right.
00:16:36.18\00:16:40.22
But I'm still not so convinced,
00:16:40.23\00:16:42.78
for example in
the Untied States,
00:16:42.79\00:16:45.63
many politically activist,
00:16:45.64\00:16:47.60
conservative religious
people are trying to say
00:16:47.61\00:16:50.44
that secularism
mimics the models of faith
00:16:50.45\00:16:53.81
and it should be
listed as a religion. Yeah.
00:16:53.82\00:16:56.60
What they're trying to
do, if you really analyze it,
00:16:56.61\00:16:59.34
is even though
they don't believe
00:16:59.35\00:17:01.55
in the separation
of church and state.
00:17:01.56\00:17:03.65
Which is, we're
often talking about
00:17:03.66\00:17:06.14
in Liberty Magazine
and on this program.
00:17:06.15\00:17:08.41
They have misguidedly seen
00:17:08.42\00:17:11.18
the separation
of church and state
00:17:11.19\00:17:12.74
as restricting their
expression of religion
00:17:12.75\00:17:15.12
and a normally
Christian Country.
00:17:15.13\00:17:17.31
So they argue
against the separation
00:17:17.32\00:17:18.66
of church and state, but
in dealing with secularism,
00:17:18.67\00:17:21.67
which they don't like
and I understand that,
00:17:21.68\00:17:23.38
I don't care for
secularism myself.
00:17:23.39\00:17:26.05
They want to define
that it is a religion
00:17:26.06\00:17:28.02
so under the model of separation
00:17:28.03\00:17:29.97
of church and state,
they can exclude secularism
00:17:29.98\00:17:33.88
from a civil path. Yeah.
00:17:33.89\00:17:36.57
That's what they're
trying to do. Right.
00:17:36.58\00:17:38.17
And I think it's
wrong on two count.
00:17:38.18\00:17:41.05
They're mixed up on the
separation of church and state
00:17:41.06\00:17:43.83
and just because, I
know, what's that saying,
00:17:43.84\00:17:47.30
if it quacks like a duck,
00:17:47.31\00:17:48.95
and waddles like a
duck, it is a duck.
00:17:48.96\00:17:50.76
But I think, this
regard that's just a syllogism
00:17:50.77\00:17:52.97
because you're not talking about
00:17:52.98\00:17:54.34
the same sort of
thing. Right, right.
00:17:54.35\00:17:56.29
You're not
talking about a religion,
00:17:56.30\00:17:58.48
even if it's
modeling it because religion,
00:17:58.49\00:18:01.85
if you really
chase it to ground,
00:18:01.86\00:18:03.82
I think is an
expression of the God shape
00:18:03.83\00:18:07.01
void in human beings
00:18:07.02\00:18:08.27
and there's a
patterns of behavior and,
00:18:08.28\00:18:10.41
and group thing and,
00:18:10.42\00:18:12.57
and organizing groups of
fellow thinkers and so on.
00:18:12.58\00:18:16.92
That's how a
church develops. Right.
00:18:16.93\00:18:19.54
Well, when they're
doing any shared comment
00:18:19.55\00:18:23.80
and they all mimic
some of the same patterns,
00:18:23.81\00:18:25.87
but it's not a religion,
00:18:25.88\00:18:26.97
secularism is not
a religion-- Right.
00:18:26.98\00:18:31.37
Like Madlyn O'Hair,
the, the infamous agnostic
00:18:31.38\00:18:37.07
or atheist, she was one variety,
00:18:37.08\00:18:41.38
but I'm sure you would
not find most secularists
00:18:41.39\00:18:43.78
willing to sign
up under that banner
00:18:43.79\00:18:45.54
so they're not all
the same thing. Right.
00:18:45.55\00:18:47.39
No, no, no it's
not a monolithic--
00:18:47.40\00:18:48.47
Oh! Yes and I there is you know,
00:18:48.48\00:18:49.48
we know there is
a difference between
00:18:49.49\00:18:50.75
a secularist and an
atheist as well-- Absolutely.
00:18:50.76\00:18:54.26
But I absolutely agree with you,
00:18:54.27\00:18:55.52
that it is not the
greatest threat to religionist,
00:18:55.53\00:18:59.61
at least, well, specifically
00:18:59.62\00:19:01.96
I always have a
North American mindset,
00:19:01.97\00:19:03.71
it's certainly not
within the United States.
00:19:03.72\00:19:06.83
And we've talked before
about actually even you know,
00:19:06.84\00:19:11.38
as you say nominal Christians
00:19:11.42\00:19:12.83
or Christians
that don't understand,
00:19:12.84\00:19:17.00
or who want to
legislate their beliefs
00:19:17.01\00:19:20.11
or enforce
their beliefs through,
00:19:20.12\00:19:22.55
through legislation,
or through the government
00:19:22.56\00:19:26.38
I feel like that is a much
greater threat. Absolutely.
00:19:26.39\00:19:29.49
On our, you know,
freedom of religion--
00:19:29.50\00:19:31.93
And I base a lot
of my, not opinions
00:19:31.94\00:19:33.99
but my underline
awareness of this both
00:19:34.00\00:19:38.35
on what the Bible
says, prophecy is very plain,
00:19:38.36\00:19:40.61
it's not secularism
that comes is the great enemy
00:19:40.62\00:19:44.26
it's a false form of worship,
00:19:44.27\00:19:46.61
it's usurping
the authority of God
00:19:46.62\00:19:48.51
under the guise of religion.
00:19:48.52\00:19:51.41
And then
historically I looked through
00:19:51.42\00:19:53.51
most of the persecution
through the ages and yes,
00:19:53.52\00:19:57.91
I can allow communism
you know, secular state,
00:19:57.92\00:20:01.14
Nazism, those were
overtly secular states
00:20:01.15\00:20:05.91
and they did persecute
some Christians not all of them,
00:20:05.92\00:20:08.51
you know,
Nazi's have an alliance
00:20:08.52\00:20:10.15
with the major Christian groups,
00:20:10.16\00:20:11.97
so people forget that.
00:20:11.98\00:20:13.27
Yeah, I don't know
how much they forget it,
00:20:13.28\00:20:15.80
they choose to ignore it.
00:20:15.81\00:20:17.19
Well, I think a lot
of people didn't know it
00:20:17.20\00:20:18.69
to start with. Yeah, yeah.
00:20:18.70\00:20:19.67
Not so much forget,
00:20:19.68\00:20:20.69
but culpably
we've forgotten. Yes.
00:20:20.70\00:20:22.46
But most individuals have
not been aware of it. Right.
00:20:22.47\00:20:26.09
So there are some exceptions,
00:20:26.10\00:20:27.21
but generally when
you look through history,
00:20:27.22\00:20:29.48
the great
persecution the religions wars
00:20:29.49\00:20:32.05
were between
religions. Of course.
00:20:32.06\00:20:33.88
You know, the
crusades that. Yes.
00:20:33.89\00:20:35.40
That lies somewhat at
the root of the antagonism
00:20:35.41\00:20:38.18
of the Islamic world. Yeah.
00:20:38.19\00:20:39.67
I've never forgotten that. Yeah.
00:20:39.68\00:20:41.00
That was a purely
religious war between Islam
00:20:41.01\00:20:44.79
and the Christian West.
00:20:44.80\00:20:47.03
Yeah, liberties had
some great series, on--
00:20:47.04\00:20:50.45
Yes, I think
they've been very good,
00:20:50.46\00:20:51.70
we've got good
feedback on those.
00:20:51.71\00:20:52.99
Yes, so for those
of who watching at home
00:20:53.00\00:20:56.04
if you haven't seen,
00:20:56.05\00:20:57.46
or if you haven't
read those series,
00:20:57.47\00:20:58.71
go to our web site
which is libertymagazine.org.
00:20:58.72\00:21:01.55
And I think the most recent one
00:21:01.56\00:21:02.75
we had was
Christianity and persecution.
00:21:02.76\00:21:04.89
The persecutory impulse.
00:21:04.90\00:21:07.44
Impulse yeah, and then we had
00:21:07.45\00:21:08.85
several on the
English reformation
00:21:08.86\00:21:10.29
and things like that.
00:21:10.30\00:21:12.52
So David Trim is an author
00:21:12.53\00:21:14.00
and he's been
guest on here before too,
00:21:14.01\00:21:16.31
he's a historian
and an archivist.
00:21:16.32\00:21:17.93
And I would really encourage you
00:21:17.94\00:21:20.77
readers to-- our viewers to go
00:21:20.78\00:21:22.63
and check this
series out if you haven't--
00:21:22.64\00:21:24.82
He was a great discovery
of liberty some years ago
00:21:24.83\00:21:27.48
and I've hunted for few others
00:21:27.49\00:21:30.12
but I have a
burden to tell the history
00:21:30.13\00:21:33.68
of not just Protestantism
but religion through the years
00:21:33.69\00:21:36.77
and then in particular
00:21:36.78\00:21:38.18
the Seventh-day
Adventist Church,
00:21:38.19\00:21:39.28
how we've come at our view
points on religions liberty.
00:21:39.29\00:21:43.02
You know, history
doesn't tell you everything,
00:21:43.03\00:21:44.54
but it tells you
most that you need to know
00:21:44.55\00:21:46.55
in looking to the
future. Oh! Sure, yeah.
00:21:46.56\00:21:49.43
Now, so I absolutely
enjoy the discussion or--
00:21:49.44\00:21:54.54
I was very
trustable in Australia.
00:21:54.55\00:21:56.27
In Australia, yeah,
00:21:56.28\00:21:58.64
just really
interesting perspectives,
00:21:58.65\00:22:00.76
like I said, it made me
00:22:00.77\00:22:02.10
you know, when you
give a little taste,
00:22:02.11\00:22:05.66
first of all of a world view
or you know, a world dynamic
00:22:05.67\00:22:12.32
I was just talking
to someone the other day
00:22:12.33\00:22:13.53
and talking about how watching
00:22:13.54\00:22:15.89
even just the nightly
news in the United States
00:22:15.90\00:22:17.82
is completely
different than watching it
00:22:17.83\00:22:19.24
anywhere else in the world,
just the slant that you know,
00:22:19.25\00:22:21.96
that's given or
whatever and someone occur--
00:22:21.97\00:22:23.85
So did you watch
the news in Australia?
00:22:23.86\00:22:25.34
Well someone,
someone encouraged me
00:22:25.35\00:22:26.77
to watch Al Shazeera or
whatever the-- Al Jazeera.
00:22:26.78\00:22:30.11
Yes, and which I don't, I
don't have a television so,
00:22:30.12\00:22:34.19
I get the news from
radio or the Internet.
00:22:34.20\00:22:37.71
But anyway just absolutely
you know, hearing the world
00:22:37.72\00:22:40.70
perspective of how secularism is
00:22:40.71\00:22:43.37
influencing the other societies,
00:22:43.38\00:22:45.54
which is
absolutely fascinating to me.
00:22:45.55\00:22:47.10
And I really appreciated it.
00:22:47.11\00:22:48.39
I felt like
Sydney law school was
00:22:48.40\00:22:50.29
just such a
consummate host for us
00:22:50.30\00:22:53.38
and really made
us feel welcome--
00:22:53.39\00:22:54.84
No, they were
very, very hospitable
00:22:54.85\00:22:56.52
and you mentioned
the Attorney General
00:22:56.53\00:22:58.53
because part of the university,
00:22:58.54\00:22:59.80
the part of the
state government. Yes.
00:22:59.81\00:23:03.68
But, but was it
the second day of the,
00:23:03.69\00:23:06.00
the three day event.
00:23:06.01\00:23:07.96
We had a reception
hosted by the vice-chancellor
00:23:07.97\00:23:10.33
effectively the
CEO of the university.
00:23:10.34\00:23:12.80
Yes, yes, yes.
00:23:12.81\00:23:13.80
And that was very
much appreciated--
00:23:13.81\00:23:16.25
Yeah, they made us feel
very much as, as if you know,
00:23:16.26\00:23:19.12
we were an
important group to be there
00:23:19.13\00:23:21.57
and so that was
very kind of them.
00:23:21.58\00:23:23.00
Which we were.
00:23:23.01\00:23:26.26
Well, we certainly are
important in our minds,
00:23:26.27\00:23:27.98
but and it's
funny because you know,
00:23:27.99\00:23:29.40
every time I tell
people about the event
00:23:29.41\00:23:30.80
it's called the
meeting of experts.
00:23:30.81\00:23:32.22
So it makes you feel
like just kind of a jerk
00:23:32.23\00:23:34.21
saying that
that's what you were at.
00:23:34.22\00:23:35.83
But anyway one thing
00:23:35.84\00:23:38.27
I didn't want to a
mention too was this,
00:23:38.28\00:23:39.96
this meeting or this topic
00:23:39.97\00:23:41.66
is also a jumping
off point for an event
00:23:41.67\00:23:44.64
that the International
Religious Liberty Association
00:23:44.65\00:23:47.38
is holding in the
Dominican Republic,
00:23:47.39\00:23:50.84
if you want to
get-- No, it's not
00:23:50.85\00:23:52.05
so this is January, isn't it?
00:23:52.06\00:23:55.09
It's in-- I thought,
anyhow next year. Yes.
00:23:55.10\00:23:58.91
And we will bring more
news on other programs,
00:23:58.92\00:24:02.40
early next year the
00:24:02.41\00:24:03.38
International
Religious Liberty Association
00:24:03.39\00:24:05.69
which the North American
Religious Liberty Association
00:24:05.70\00:24:09.08
that you take a
lead, are all about,
00:24:09.09\00:24:10.91
and I'm Vice-President of it
00:24:10.92\00:24:12.37
and that's integrated into
all that we do with liberty.
00:24:12.38\00:24:15.50
But the NRLA, IRLA. IRLA.
00:24:15.51\00:24:22.67
The IRLA, no the National
Religious Liberty Association.
00:24:22.68\00:24:25.59
So there is NRLA--
00:24:25.60\00:24:26.57
There is a subsidiary
of the IRLA. Correct, yes.
00:24:26.58\00:24:29.82
Which on an international forum
00:24:29.83\00:24:32.52
is organizing in Punta Cana,
00:24:32.53\00:24:34.79
Dominican Republic
for next year. Yes.
00:24:34.80\00:24:36.98
A major seminar not,
you know, 20-25 people
00:24:36.99\00:24:42.47
I think they're aiming
for about a thousand people.
00:24:42.48\00:24:44.33
Yes, it's a conferences
actually the world congress
00:24:44.34\00:24:46.56
which they hold
every five years.
00:24:46.57\00:24:48.57
And I would
really encourage you,
00:24:48.58\00:24:49.97
we've been promoting
it in Liberty Magazine
00:24:49.98\00:24:52.58
for those that are
interested in attending.
00:24:52.59\00:24:54.03
Again, this is not
an academic conference
00:24:54.04\00:24:55.78
it's more open to you
know, those interested,
00:24:55.79\00:24:58.67
you know, us lay people
00:24:58.68\00:25:00.12
that are interested
in religious freedom.
00:25:00.13\00:25:01.34
Well, it's a combination,
somethings are more teaching,
00:25:01.35\00:25:04.75
others are bringing information,
00:25:04.76\00:25:05.98
others are
sharing what they're doing
00:25:05.99\00:25:07.79
in different
parts of the world so,
00:25:07.80\00:25:09.16
all in all if anyone that
has the slightest interest
00:25:09.17\00:25:12.44
in religious liberty there
will be something for them--
00:25:12.45\00:25:14.62
Right, right.
At this conference.
00:25:14.63\00:25:15.61
So go to their website--
00:25:15.62\00:25:16.62
And anyone that
likes to swim on the side.
00:25:16.63\00:25:19.22
Yeah, the beautiful location
doesn't hurt, I don't think.
00:25:19.23\00:25:21.30
And also I think it's,
from what I understand,
00:25:21.31\00:25:23.18
I haven't look it up, but
I think airfare is actually
00:25:23.19\00:25:25.68
pretty inexpensive and,
00:25:25.69\00:25:27.02
I think the
conference registration fee
00:25:27.03\00:25:28.97
is not very
expensive either but www--
00:25:28.98\00:25:31.79
You don't wanna
sell this on low cost,
00:25:31.80\00:25:32.98
because if someone
believes in something,
00:25:32.99\00:25:36.37
any reasonable expense is
worth paying to participate--
00:25:36.38\00:25:38.91
Oh, sure absolutely, no,
00:25:38.92\00:25:40.09
but I just want to give
the website which is-- Okay.
00:25:40.10\00:25:41.86
www.irla, International
Religious Liberty Association
00:25:41.87\00:25:45.51
is what it stands for, irla.org.
00:25:45.52\00:25:48.28
We'll have
information about that congress
00:25:48.29\00:25:49.95
there in Dominican Republic,
00:25:49.96\00:25:51.41
which is a
continuation of this topic
00:25:51.42\00:25:53.28
and so if you are finding
our conversation interesting,
00:25:53.29\00:25:55.62
which I hope that you are.
00:25:55.63\00:25:57.40
Then I would encourage you
to, to take a look at that.
00:25:57.41\00:25:59.92
We have many regular
viewers of this program.
00:25:59.93\00:26:01.59
I meet them almost every weekend
00:26:01.60\00:26:03.04
when I go somewhere. Yes.
00:26:03.05\00:26:05.31
To take way on, on this thing
in Australia for me at least,
00:26:05.32\00:26:08.80
even though I'm an Australian
00:26:08.81\00:26:09.88
I think it's just
further verification
00:26:09.89\00:26:12.68
that religious liberty
is a global concern. Yes.
00:26:12.69\00:26:15.07
It's not just in
the United States,
00:26:15.08\00:26:16.73
it's not just concern
with the U.S. Constitution.
00:26:16.74\00:26:19.69
People of many
faiths, many nationalities
00:26:19.70\00:26:23.05
have dynamic issues today.
00:26:23.06\00:26:25.47
I mean the news
is swelling round us
00:26:25.48\00:26:27.24
and it was great to see them
00:26:27.25\00:26:28.25
coming together as
experts in Australia.
00:26:28.26\00:26:30.28
Yeah, it is, it is, I find it
00:26:30.29\00:26:32.99
as a Christian
encouraging sometime
00:26:33.00\00:26:35.67
here in the United
States, I'm a little discouraged
00:26:35.68\00:26:38.36
because I don't see
Christianity growing like
00:26:38.37\00:26:41.86
I'd love to see it growing.
00:26:41.87\00:26:43.15
And so this conference to me
00:26:43.16\00:26:46.15
was just to see religion alive
00:26:46.16\00:26:48.81
and well in the world
was just really encouraging.
00:26:48.82\00:26:53.65
At the height of
the French Revolution
00:26:53.66\00:26:55.58
the crowd held up
a woman on a platform
00:26:55.59\00:26:58.92
and paraded her
though the streets.
00:26:58.93\00:27:01.20
Literally worshiping her
00:27:01.21\00:27:02.88
as the epitome
of wisdom or reason.
00:27:02.89\00:27:06.93
That really was a low point
00:27:06.94\00:27:09.41
in how a
population looked at religion.
00:27:09.42\00:27:12.04
Because they were
dismissing religion as illogical
00:27:12.05\00:27:14.49
and they would worship reason.
00:27:14.50\00:27:17.25
You know, God in
the Bible says to man,
00:27:17.26\00:27:19.79
come, let us reason together.
00:27:19.80\00:27:22.81
So there's not a question
that in thinking about faith
00:27:22.82\00:27:25.65
we're to use
intelligent analysis.
00:27:25.66\00:27:30.30
In our modern
world many people have
00:27:30.31\00:27:32.11
gotten confused on this
dynamic and thought secularism
00:27:32.12\00:27:36.36
or rational thought is
in some opposition to faith.
00:27:36.37\00:27:40.08
I don't see secularism
in itself an enemy of faith.
00:27:40.09\00:27:44.10
But secularism practice
to the exclusion of religion
00:27:44.11\00:27:47.62
can be very detrimental
to the practice of faith
00:27:47.63\00:27:51.03
and ultimately can unable
distinct attacks against faith,
00:27:51.04\00:27:56.50
ultimately might
even enable persecution.
00:27:56.51\00:27:59.42
We need to work as we
did in Australia to inform
00:27:59.43\00:28:02.34
and to create a
climate that encourages faith.
00:28:02.35\00:28:06.53
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:06.54\00:28:10.60