Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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We want you to come with us
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on a, perhaps sometimes
a fire ranging discussion
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of religious liberty issues.
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This is the program
that brings you up to date
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and inside reviews
on religious liberty
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in the United States
and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest on the program is
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Samuel Thomas,
minister of religion,
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and your
particular job description
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at the moment
involves promotion and,
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well it's promotion.
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I like to use the
term, advanced is what...
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Well that's what
I was fishing for,
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promotion sounds a
little commercial. Yes.
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But advancement
of Message Magazine,
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which is a
spiritual outreach magazine
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largely targeted
but not exclusively
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for the Black
community. Correct.
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Since I began Liberty Magazine,
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I pursued a lot
of my preoccupations
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for religious
freedom and one of the things
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that's concerned
me from the beginning
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is prisoner's rights.
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Here and now
they're very important
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but as we move into
tougher times when people,
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perhaps who are in prison
for their religious stands,
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I think it's important
to recognize that in jail
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they might have even less
rights than in the outside world
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and that's more important.
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Do you see any danger right now
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for the sort of
religious indoctrination
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or pressures that
might be brought to bear
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against some
prisoners in some prisons.
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It's interesting that
you asked that question,
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because I've actually done
ministry in different prisons,
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different areas of the nation,
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both men and women's
correctional facilities.
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One of the common
threads that unites
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all of them is the surge,
especially those that have
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high concentration of
African-American population
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with this surge of the
Nation of Islam in the prisons.
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Now people might wonder,
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who are watching this program,
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why the Islamic faith might show
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some degree of attraction or,
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it's the first question
I'm gonna ask you, yeah.
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You know, why is it
something like a magnet
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for African-American males.
Several reasons, number one,
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it promotes the
idea of self advancement,
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it takes away the
emphasis of White Christianity.
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Now the downside
of White Christianity
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and I'm using that in quotes,
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is that there is always a face
given to White Christianity.
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Which means that however
Christ, angels, prophets,
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or biblical
figures are portrayed
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they are Caucasian,
that's a problem in,
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which is
interesting because certainly
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the biblical
figures were Middle-Eastern,
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correct, correct but.
But we've westernized,
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yeah, we've westernized you
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because that's who
the artists were, exactly.
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The other pieces that
it puts an emphasis on
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the male having
a stronger level of
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self
development and improvement.
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Now, that's missing
in the black community,
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because you've the
cycle of single parenting
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and female presence
as a result of that.
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So these guys are
looking for their own identity
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and it's a religious order,
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so they're able to
now obtain discipline,
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self control, a
sense of purpose,
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a sense of-- if you wanna use
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the psychological term
actualization, you know...
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Now, a lot of
what you're describing
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from the Nation of Islam.
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Well, it's Islamic it's
fairly unique to the structure
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of Elijah Muhammad and
Malcolm X, that's correct,
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that's correct, constructive.
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It's not really
necessarily some you can say
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generally, that's
correct, that's correct,
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most special subset.
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You know, most people don't know
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the history of
the nation of Islam.
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I had a interest when
I was in my teenage years
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in the nation of Islam which is,
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you know, probably quite unique
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because being a minister's son
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you wouldn't see that naturally.
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But I had this bond
with this strong male image
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that was portrayed
by Elijah Muhammad.
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And when I lived
in Columbus, Ohio,
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I would always go
downtown and try to pickup
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I think the name of
the paper is Nation Speaks
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or something like that.
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But anyway I would
pickup a copy of paper
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and I would read while
riding the bus or at work.
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Then I picked up a
copy of Alex Haley's book
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on Malcolm X and he of
course became famous for Roots.
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That was written earlier.
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Yeah, but he
actually wrote that earlier.
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And Malcolm X had actually
had Seventh-day Adventist,
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you know, background
that comes out in that book.
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But it didn't specifically
say Seventh-day Adventist,
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it talked about
keeping the Sabbath
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and so on and so forth.
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Now when you put
all of that together,
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what do you see?
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Well, you see these
men who were clean cut,
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if you ever see gentlemen
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who are a part of
the nation of Islam,
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in the Black community,
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their shirt and tie,
well groomed, well articulate,
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generally quite
intelligent, well read,
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and they have a sense
of purpose in their lives.
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Just like Hamas and
Hezbollah in the Middle East.
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They're very concern
with social and family and,
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community value.
Correct, correct, correct.
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So their wives are
generally close behind.
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There is not a
lot of fraternizing
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with the opposite sex
and even in the older footage
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that you can see some time,
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the rallies that Elijah Muhammad
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had and Malcolm X, you would see
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the separation of the genders.
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So all of this is
attractive to people
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who want to better
themselves and achieve more.
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However, the sidebar of the
nation of Islam of course is,
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it's salvation by works,
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it's all the
emphasis on the self.
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So it's totally
disconnected from Christianity
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and what it values.
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That just be your
judgment of course
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and my question too
but do you think that there
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is a subtext in this attraction
to that it is a religion
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as a radical alternative
to the religion of America,
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which has all sorts of
historic baggage to it.
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Oh, without a
doubt, without a doubt.
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There is a story that I
will try tell cryptically,
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but years ago at a
camp meeting down south
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I was a small bit
speaker during the program
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and I had to go
up on the platform,
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and that was a church and
this was with a circular passage
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all the way around even
at the back of the platform.
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So I went around the
back and here was a group of
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about 30 or more
young Adventist pastors.
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And they were in a
very heated discussion
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and the minute I
appeared, they just clammed up,
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everybody shut up.
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And I said, what
are you talking about,
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didn't tell me at first
and after a while someone,
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Brother Ramsey says,
why don't we ask him,
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why don't we ask him.
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And they said we were discussing
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whether Christianity or
Islam is more appropriate
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for African-Americans
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since Christianity was
the religion of the oppressor.
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Yeah, you see, that's a
very interesting dynamic,
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I can't say and I
would hope it would never
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mean that any of
them would leave.
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Right. But it
was emotional enough
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that there was a
great division among them,
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it wasn't just an
academic argument.
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Let me, let me
insert this very quickly
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and that is for
our viewing audience,
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they might
wonder how is there even
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this thought but you must,
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you must
incorporate in this dialog
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the history of what Christianity
looks like in America.
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Christianity in
America would jail
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Martin Luther King
and hence he writes this
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letter from Birmingham
jail where he is appealing
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to the southern
preacher to come out
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and stand for the
biblical principles.
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I mean, we're all
reading the same Bible,
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what's the problem here.
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So if you take it
back several generations,
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this is what the
Black American knows.
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African-American knows
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Christianity only
in this narrow view,
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of course, we
often hear the upside
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of what the Christian church
is done in the Black community
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and how many great
singers have come out of it
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and so on and so
forth, great preachers.
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Well, I think
Christianity on its own merits
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clearly penetrated
that community just,
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certainly, as
generally, certainly.
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But as far as the
historic and political message
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that it was not always
positive it was not positive.
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So when you deal
with a person who is more
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free thinking and they're
seeking to analyze and balance,
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why would I want to
connect with that religion.
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And there are probably
even some who are viewing
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this program and say
well we need to forget that.
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Well, let me tell you
it's not as easy to let go...
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It's not as
ancient as people imagine.
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No, it's not as ancient
because I was born in 1957
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and we didn't have a voting
rights bill passed until 64.
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So all of this has
been in my lifetime.
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And I should tell those viewers
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especially in the United
States who may have forgotten
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that history studies
will never have taken them.
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But I was a history
major and while the civil war,
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you know, it was
just after the mid 1800s,
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1860s that really
didn't settle this issue, no.
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In many legal ways,
not just social ways,
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the issue of the civil
war in slow but continued
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at least another
generation, perhaps two.
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Yeah, in fact it
was actually modified
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to the Jim Crow
practices of the south,
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which really became a law.
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So it's not such
an ancient history.
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It's not. Certainly
there's plenty of grandparents
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that tell the stories of it.
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Well to make it very
real and very personal,
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I'm old enough to remember
where my dad in pastoring,
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not pastoring but ministering
throughout the south east.
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Had to stay in
specific people homes
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as he would travel
between North Carolina
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and Florida in that conference,
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South Atlantic
was the territory.
00:10:16.50\00:10:19.03
Because we could
not stay in hotels.
00:10:19.63\00:10:22.39
So I'm old
enough to be, you know,
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just old enough to
remember that transition period.
00:10:24.60\00:10:27.51
But that is, that becomes
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the catalyst for people saying,
I need to take a different look.
00:10:29.85\00:10:34.59
And see here is another
thing when you talk about
00:10:34.60\00:10:36.92
the Seventh-day
Adventist Christians.
00:10:36.93\00:10:38.25
I've actually had to evaluate
my own faith simply because
00:10:38.26\00:10:43.41
when you see a lot of
the history of our faith,
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it focuses more
on those Caucasians.
00:10:49.55\00:10:51.90
Okay, not the Blacks
or any other ethnic groups
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that contributed.
Well, I agree with you,
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but sometimes we
need to eject Ellen White,
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I was gonna say
the founding prophet,
00:10:59.74\00:11:02.75
but that might be
overstating a role that,
00:11:02.76\00:11:04.96
right, a woman
with a prophetic gift
00:11:04.97\00:11:06.85
that played a very central role
00:11:06.86\00:11:08.20
in the establishment
of the Adventist church.
00:11:08.21\00:11:10.11
Sure, had a great burden
for the work in the south,
00:11:10.12\00:11:13.83
right, among, well not
just freed slaves but the whole,
00:11:13.84\00:11:17.68
sure, non White population.
00:11:17.69\00:11:19.82
And became very supportive
of her son Edson White,
00:11:19.83\00:11:22.13
absolutely, with
the morning scholar.
00:11:22.14\00:11:23.46
The Adventist church
has had a good strain
00:11:23.47\00:11:25.65
from the very
beginning, correct,
00:11:25.66\00:11:26.86
even though it
fought against the impulse,
00:11:26.87\00:11:29.83
societal impulses that many
00:11:29.84\00:11:31.41
Adventist
themselves as examples.
00:11:31.42\00:11:34.03
Correct, and I appreciate
the way that you have,
00:11:34.04\00:11:35.84
you know,
packaged that effectively.
00:11:35.85\00:11:37.20
But that was one of the
things that I had to define,
00:11:37.21\00:11:41.20
I had to work
through all of that.
00:11:41.21\00:11:42.90
Well, why do
you work through it?
00:11:42.91\00:11:44.96
I'm sure that in other cultures
00:11:44.97\00:11:46.43
you don't have to work
through those tensions.
00:11:46.44\00:11:48.06
Because the dynamic
of the social fabric
00:11:48.07\00:11:50.60
doesn't exist in other nations
00:11:50.61\00:11:52.56
as it did here in America.
00:11:52.57\00:11:53.79
How does that fact
of the nation of Islam
00:11:54.46\00:11:56.68
it becomes a very
attractive alternative religion,
00:11:56.69\00:12:01.37
religious group for people
who are looking for a way out
00:12:01.38\00:12:06.16
of and not desires of
connecting to anything
00:12:06.17\00:12:09.86
that's a part of the oppressor.
00:12:09.87\00:12:11.29
So it's a
continued, continuing appeal
00:12:11.30\00:12:13.37
and it's not a question of
who to believe in lot of what
00:12:13.38\00:12:16.67
we hear and read from
government authorities
00:12:16.68\00:12:19.21
as well as in the media.
00:12:19.22\00:12:20.28
But since 9/11 their
recruiting in the prisons
00:12:20.29\00:12:23.80
has sort of picked up
and perhaps even taken
00:12:23.81\00:12:26.28
on in some places
of more radical tinge.
00:12:26.29\00:12:29.30
Great, but I don't think that
00:12:29.31\00:12:31.08
our viewing
audience should ever think
00:12:31.09\00:12:32.85
the Nation of
Islam is anyway connected
00:12:32.86\00:12:35.02
to Islamic fundamentalism.
00:12:35.03\00:12:36.77
No. Because...
00:12:36.78\00:12:38.41
I haven't seen any
evidence what so ever that
00:12:38.42\00:12:40.55
we connected to groups
like Al-Qaeda and Al Jazeera.
00:12:40.56\00:12:43.59
Correct. Yeah,
they're worlds apart.
00:12:43.60\00:12:45.23
In fact, the Nation of Islam
00:12:45.24\00:12:48.47
is almost like a strain off
00:12:48.48\00:12:50.26
of Islamic faith
in its true sense.
00:12:51.19\00:12:54.49
By the way, go
back to that story that
00:12:54.50\00:12:55.91
I walked into the
discussion, once they asked me,
00:12:55.92\00:13:00.57
I said well, I said,
you got to remember that
00:13:00.58\00:13:03.63
the actual slogans
themselves were Muslims,
00:13:03.64\00:13:06.39
Arabs, that's
right, and someone said
00:13:06.40\00:13:09.90
that's what I was
telling them, that's what.
00:13:09.91\00:13:11.52
So the very least
that showed that in that
00:13:11.53\00:13:13.82
very back historical
chapter both Christianity
00:13:13.83\00:13:16.85
and Islam were not much
to defend in their position.
00:13:16.86\00:13:20.68
And it's only human
beings that have that view.
00:13:20.69\00:13:24.16
We'll be back after the break
to continue this discussion.
00:13:25.41\00:13:28.35
I think you'll
find it's interesting,
00:13:28.36\00:13:30.61
very
illuminating, so stay with us.
00:13:30.62\00:13:32.75
One-hundred
years, a long time to do
00:13:41.96\00:13:44.96
anything much less
publish a magazine,
00:13:44.97\00:13:47.69
but this year Liberty,
the Seventh-day Adventist
00:13:47.70\00:13:50.82
voice of religious freedom,
00:13:50.83\00:13:52.42
celebrates one hundred years
00:13:52.43\00:13:54.16
of doing what it does
best, collecting, analyzing,
00:13:54.17\00:13:57.69
and reporting the ebb and flow
00:13:57.70\00:13:59.49
of religious
expression around the world.
00:13:59.50\00:14:02.22
Issue after issue,
Liberty has taken on the
00:14:02.23\00:14:05.16
tough assignments,
tracking down threats
00:14:05.17\00:14:07.49
to religious
freedom and exposing
00:14:07.50\00:14:09.02
the work of the devil in
every corner of the globe.
00:14:09.03\00:14:12.22
Governmental interference,
00:14:12.23\00:14:13.56
personal attacks,
corporate assaults,
00:14:13.57\00:14:16.16
even religious
freedom issues sequestered
00:14:16.17\00:14:18.16
within the
Church community itself
00:14:18.17\00:14:20.02
have been clearly
and honestly exposed.
00:14:20.03\00:14:22.96
Liberty exists for one purpose
00:14:22.97\00:14:25.36
to help God's
people maintain that
00:14:25.37\00:14:27.42
all important
separation of Church and State,
00:14:27.43\00:14:30.36
while recognizing the dangers
inherent in such a struggle.
00:14:30.37\00:14:34.29
During the past
century, Liberty has experienced
00:14:34.30\00:14:36.89
challenges of its own,
but it remains on the job.
00:14:36.90\00:14:40.42
Thanks to the
inspired leadership
00:14:40.43\00:14:42.16
of a long line of
dedicated Adventist Editors,
00:14:42.17\00:14:44.89
three of whom
represent almost half of the
00:14:44.90\00:14:46.69
publications
existence and the foresight
00:14:46.70\00:14:49.22
of a little
woman from New England.
00:14:49.23\00:14:51.56
One hundred years of struggle,
00:14:51.57\00:14:53.69
one hundred years of victories,
00:14:53.70\00:14:55.76
religious
freedom isn't just about
00:14:55.77\00:14:57.82
political machines
and cultural prejudices.
00:14:57.83\00:15:00.56
It's about people
fighting for the right to serve
00:15:00.57\00:15:04.02
the God they
love as their hearts
00:15:04.03\00:15:06.49
and the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:15:06.50\00:15:08.76
Thanks to the prayers
and generous support of
00:15:08.77\00:15:11.09
Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere.
00:15:11.10\00:15:13.22
Liberty will continue
to accomplish its work
00:15:13.23\00:15:15.69
of providing timely information,
00:15:15.70\00:15:17.49
spirit filled inspiration,
00:15:17.50\00:15:19.02
and heaven sent encouragement
00:15:19.03\00:15:20.69
to all who long to live and work
00:15:20.70\00:15:23.89
in a world bound
together by the God
00:15:23.90\00:15:26.42
ordained bonds of
religious freedom.
00:15:26.43\00:15:29.29
Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:15:35.02\00:15:41.56
Before the break
with guest Samuel Thomas
00:15:41.57\00:15:43.72
we were talking
about some, probably things
00:15:43.73\00:15:47.47
that I think some of our viewers
00:15:47.48\00:15:48.79
haven't heard before
about the Nation of Islam,
00:15:48.80\00:15:52.10
about the
situation in the prisons
00:15:52.11\00:15:54.60
where they're often recruited.
00:15:54.61\00:15:55.99
And the mindset
that's really is behind this
00:15:56.00\00:15:59.20
and why it
might be so attractive
00:15:59.21\00:16:00.57
to young Black men particularly.
00:16:00.58\00:16:03.45
Let me also
Lincoln add this point.
00:16:03.46\00:16:05.79
This is a reason why
Message magazine has taken
00:16:05.80\00:16:07.56
such a strong interest
in getting into the prisons.
00:16:07.57\00:16:10.08
In fact we actually
solicited funds for people
00:16:10.09\00:16:12.93
to support
message going behind bars
00:16:12.94\00:16:15.73
and to the families of
those who are incarcerated.
00:16:15.74\00:16:19.37
We have to give
an alternative view,
00:16:19.38\00:16:22.57
we must give them
another view of God
00:16:22.58\00:16:25.53
and we must
change, radically change
00:16:25.54\00:16:27.99
their self view
knowing that they're created
00:16:28.00\00:16:32.29
in the image of God.
00:16:32.30\00:16:33.27
Now, that may be a
stretch for some people to hear,
00:16:33.28\00:16:36.32
but we need to do it.
But we have to do that.
00:16:36.33\00:16:38.41
You mentioned in the
beginning of the program,
00:16:38.42\00:16:39.97
you been-- had to work
in the prison for a while,
00:16:39.98\00:16:42.43
yes, yes, and I
have gone into the prison
00:16:42.44\00:16:43.71
a few times too and one
thing that really struck me,
00:16:43.72\00:16:46.12
even though many of the prisons
00:16:46.13\00:16:48.61
or at least parts
of many of the prisons
00:16:48.62\00:16:50.11
are full of hardened
criminals, very much,
00:16:50.12\00:16:51.94
those things that committed
and there can bestial activity,
00:16:51.95\00:16:56.56
let's just leave it
at that, in the prison.
00:16:56.57\00:16:58.61
Right. What impressed me
00:16:58.62\00:17:00.40
with most of the, all
of the people that I met,
00:17:00.41\00:17:03.15
who are admittedly they
were the ones that wanted
00:17:03.16\00:17:06.01
to come together in a
religious complication.
00:17:06.02\00:17:07.79
But they were
broken men. They are.
00:17:07.80\00:17:10.68
They really-- even though
they may not have recognized
00:17:11.51\00:17:14.63
fully their crime
but as human beings
00:17:14.64\00:17:17.47
they're just basically broken.
00:17:17.48\00:17:19.49
They've lost their
spirit, they don't really have
00:17:19.50\00:17:23.06
a sense of identity of course,
00:17:23.07\00:17:24.44
which may be
why they're often so
00:17:24.45\00:17:26.13
open to some of
these efforts by,
00:17:26.14\00:17:30.67
say the Nation of Islam or
gangs it's not just religion.
00:17:30.68\00:17:33.99
Or the area... Yeah, absolutely.
00:17:34.00\00:17:36.02
Yeah, yeah. We didn't mentioned
00:17:36.03\00:17:38.83
before the current
leader of the Nation of Islam,
00:17:38.84\00:17:42.03
Louis
Farrakhan, Louis Farrakhan.
00:17:42.04\00:17:44.01
A very charismatic
and at least I find,
00:17:44.02\00:17:47.06
engaging figure,
because he's clearly
00:17:47.07\00:17:49.24
a very intelligent
person who can make some cutting
00:17:49.25\00:17:52.24
insight in the modern,
political and social America.
00:17:52.25\00:17:55.75
But by the same
token he does some
00:17:55.76\00:17:57.71
rather strange far out
things like visiting Libya
00:17:57.72\00:18:01.37
when Gaddafi was at
his most terroristic
00:18:01.38\00:18:04.90
and then
speaking ill of America,
00:18:05.94\00:18:07.78
which, you know,
there's plenty to criticize
00:18:07.79\00:18:09.31
in any country and, sure,
00:18:09.32\00:18:10.59
America but I don't
think anyone should go
00:18:10.60\00:18:12.71
tortuously
rubbish their own country,
00:18:12.72\00:18:15.21
that's not really a good thing.
00:18:15.22\00:18:16.67
You know, we're talking about
00:18:16.68\00:18:19.42
this sort of
religious appeal in a prison.
00:18:19.43\00:18:23.10
But let's take it in
another direction totally.
00:18:23.11\00:18:26.25
When we talk
about religious freedom,
00:18:26.26\00:18:27.85
there is a
mechanical aspect to it.
00:18:27.86\00:18:30.80
You know, there's
laws that you can pass
00:18:30.81\00:18:32.93
to protect people doing
and believing certain things
00:18:32.94\00:18:36.13
but I often say
when I'm talking about,
00:18:36.14\00:18:39.00
the real issue
when you're talking
00:18:39.01\00:18:41.01
about religious
freedom or religion period
00:18:41.02\00:18:42.71
a spirituality because
that spirituality religion
00:18:42.72\00:18:45.86
I believe is a
pernicious force in society.
00:18:45.87\00:18:48.59
And that's almost heretical.
00:18:48.60\00:18:49.95
But religion
without spirituality is
00:18:49.96\00:18:52.05
responsible for a
lot of bad things.
00:18:52.06\00:18:53.97
Because it actually empowers
00:18:53.98\00:18:55.88
the worst
tenancies in human beings.
00:18:55.89\00:18:57.65
But spirituality, at
least people do apply.
00:18:58.14\00:19:01.69
So accepting that we need
spirituality and religion,
00:19:01.70\00:19:06.25
and that it will smooth
over a lot of the conflicts
00:19:06.26\00:19:11.84
between religions that
under cuts religious freedom.
00:19:11.85\00:19:14.79
How do we get to
revival, how do we review
00:19:14.80\00:19:17.37
a spiritual sense in America?
00:19:17.38\00:19:19.92
Let me take a personal
matter, may I get it personal?
00:19:19.93\00:19:22.78
Yeah, but
before you get to that,
00:19:22.79\00:19:24.55
I just preface that
very often when I met
00:19:24.56\00:19:26.98
with Protestant American leaders
00:19:26.99\00:19:30.87
in a previous job actually.
00:19:30.88\00:19:32.93
They would pray
before the meetings
00:19:33.58\00:19:35.21
and it was
usually about education,
00:19:35.22\00:19:36.39
drug education,
things like that.
00:19:36.40\00:19:37.92
They would always
pray that the Lord
00:19:37.93\00:19:40.08
would heal our
nation. I love that prayer.
00:19:40.09\00:19:42.13
Lord heal our nation.
Well, that's a faulty premise.
00:19:42.14\00:19:46.97
I hate to just go there.
00:19:46.98\00:19:48.27
Well it's a faulty
premise if they think that
00:19:48.28\00:19:49.42
it operates at the
governmental level, certainly.
00:19:49.43\00:19:53.43
But if, you know,
what is that song it says
00:19:53.44\00:19:57.87
"Let It Begin With Me" and..
00:19:57.88\00:19:59.16
Right it's individualistic.
00:19:59.17\00:20:00.48
Yes, if we can think that
our nation would be healed,
00:20:00.49\00:20:04.04
could be healed
and it could be done
00:20:04.05\00:20:06.11
by many individuals
seeking God, right, right,
00:20:06.12\00:20:08.50
I think that's the genuine.
Wrong tense of the word,
00:20:08.51\00:20:10.72
it's not individualistic,
it's individual.
00:20:10.73\00:20:12.36
But I have to
what as Samuel Thomas
00:20:12.37\00:20:17.17
to have a
relationship with Christ
00:20:17.18\00:20:20.17
Where I am Christ like.
00:20:20.18\00:20:22.33
And to take that attitude means
00:20:23.13\00:20:25.69
that I've to shed
my desire for power,
00:20:25.70\00:20:28.64
my quest for authority,
the desire for national good.
00:20:28.65\00:20:33.02
Because Christ wanted
national good even in Israel.
00:20:33.03\00:20:37.18
You know, he was rejected
00:20:37.94\00:20:39.91
because he could not
bring them to an understanding
00:20:39.92\00:20:43.04
of his purpose.
00:20:43.05\00:20:44.07
It was not the
advancement of national good
00:20:44.62\00:20:47.30
or nationhood, but
it was the advancement
00:20:47.31\00:20:50.01
of spiritual values.
00:20:50.02\00:20:51.89
And so
everything he talked about,
00:20:51.90\00:20:54.11
Christ built it on the
premise of acknowledging
00:20:54.12\00:20:59.45
God first and minimizing self.
00:20:59.46\00:21:02.11
Everything we've
talked about when it pertains
00:21:02.78\00:21:06.99
to religious liberty concerns
is generally the advancement
00:21:07.00\00:21:11.18
of self even if it's in
the context of the logic group.
00:21:11.19\00:21:14.15
So its many selves coming
together wanting to advance
00:21:14.16\00:21:18.35
a particular
philosophy of theology.
00:21:18.36\00:21:20.14
Christ allowed
himself to get marginalized,
00:21:20.15\00:21:25.18
He was treated
in such a way that
00:21:27.49\00:21:30.12
at the end of the
day they crucified Him,
00:21:30.13\00:21:32.75
because He would
not, He would not comply
00:21:32.76\00:21:36.14
with status quo,
He would not march
00:21:36.15\00:21:38.90
with the movement
toward national significance.
00:21:38.91\00:21:42.85
I mean, it's--
and that ought to,
00:21:42.86\00:21:45.27
you know, Lincoln,
00:21:45.28\00:21:46.26
that ought to
rattle evangelicals.
00:21:46.27\00:21:48.61
He could not, but
maybe He could not because--
00:21:48.62\00:21:52.07
I quoted in another program,
00:21:52.08\00:21:53.58
the statement of
Jesus that all that live
00:21:53.59\00:21:55.35
a Godly life will
suffer prosecution, right.
00:21:55.36\00:21:57.21
And I think anybody
that identifies themselves
00:21:57.22\00:21:59.84
with the-- we're
talking Christianity there,
00:21:59.85\00:22:02.28
which is a subset of the larger
00:22:02.29\00:22:04.32
philosophy religious liberty.
00:22:04.33\00:22:06.34
But Christianity
which I believe is valid,
00:22:06.35\00:22:08.88
right, it's not just
a belief but not many.
00:22:08.89\00:22:11.19
But if you buy
into that absolutely,
00:22:11.20\00:22:14.09
the kingdom of God
there is an immediate conflict
00:22:14.10\00:22:17.31
with the world
around you. Immediately.
00:22:17.32\00:22:18.98
You don't have to
chose not to corporate
00:22:18.99\00:22:21.63
with it or to challenge
it. You're out of sync,
00:22:21.64\00:22:24.43
you're on a
different wavelength.
00:22:24.44\00:22:25.49
Immediately.
00:22:25.50\00:22:26.75
So that's what was
going on with Christ
00:22:26.76\00:22:28.79
and any true follower of
Christ that they might be
00:22:28.80\00:22:32.03
in conflict in the
antagonistic sense.
00:22:32.04\00:22:34.13
But they will out
of sync with the world.
00:22:34.14\00:22:35.86
They're different, Jesus says,
00:22:35.87\00:22:37.49
my kingdom is not of this world.
00:22:37.50\00:22:38.99
Yes. And so we need to recognize
00:22:39.00\00:22:41.05
that so religious
freedom in the sense
00:22:41.06\00:22:43.46
of seeking laws that accommodate
00:22:43.47\00:22:45.07
our beliefs can only go so far.
00:22:45.08\00:22:46.71
They can smooth out
the intended obstructions,
00:22:46.72\00:22:51.11
so you practicing your faith,
00:22:51.12\00:22:52.91
but they can never take away
00:22:52.92\00:22:54.02
this dissonance
between a life of the spirit
00:22:54.03\00:22:56.48
and a carnal earthly life
with its goals and ambitions,
00:22:56.49\00:23:00.87
and so on that are here and now.
00:23:00.88\00:23:02.60
But someone with
faith is looking beyond
00:23:02.61\00:23:05.14
to the transcendent.
00:23:05.15\00:23:06.72
But people today in faith
are so--of Christian faith,
00:23:06.73\00:23:10.23
they're so confused because
there are so many voices.
00:23:10.24\00:23:13.06
There are those
who preach affluence,
00:23:13.07\00:23:15.91
those who speak
about national greatness,
00:23:15.92\00:23:20.44
those who are-- you
know, these, these different--
00:23:20.45\00:23:23.01
We should take a cue from it.
00:23:23.02\00:23:24.37
You know, there was a certain
00:23:24.38\00:23:25.45
glass sided cathedral that was
00:23:25.46\00:23:27.31
part of what you spoke about.
00:23:27.32\00:23:28.38
I think it's up
for sale at the moment.
00:23:28.39\00:23:29.99
So these appeals come and go.
00:23:30.00\00:23:31.87
Yeah, actually
bankruptcy has been filed
00:23:31.88\00:23:34.29
by some of the creditors.
But what does that tell us?
00:23:34.30\00:23:37.68
It tells us that the
solid integrity of God's word
00:23:37.69\00:23:42.43
when taken in it's
entirety for what it is,
00:23:42.44\00:23:45.58
is life changing if
we let it change us.
00:23:45.59\00:23:49.15
Yeah. So liberty actually
becomes an individual position.
00:23:49.16\00:23:53.92
If we are willing to
embrace it individually
00:23:53.93\00:23:57.00
before we try to
encourage it corporately.
00:23:57.01\00:24:00.31
You will have
the natural outcome.
00:24:01.21\00:24:03.00
Now, you know, I
must say something good
00:24:03.01\00:24:04.48
about how the United
States at least looks
00:24:04.49\00:24:06.74
at the rights of
free exercise of religion.
00:24:06.75\00:24:08.85
I think it is
the correct dynamic
00:24:08.86\00:24:12.29
and very people seem to,
few people understand it.
00:24:12.30\00:24:14.68
In the work place if you
have a religious conflict
00:24:14.69\00:24:19.00
it's not necessary to
say that your church believes
00:24:19.01\00:24:22.10
this or that,
or that your priest
00:24:22.11\00:24:24.12
or your pastor
requires you to do something.
00:24:24.13\00:24:26.29
It was handed down
instruction or rabbi even,
00:24:26.30\00:24:28.78
yeah, yes, thank you.
00:24:28.79\00:24:30.24
You know, we can broaden it up
00:24:30.25\00:24:32.04
to any belief system or--
00:24:32.05\00:24:33.54
what it is are you
under conscious conviction.
00:24:34.24\00:24:37.16
It's a personal matter,
00:24:37.17\00:24:38.14
it could be that
it is out of sync
00:24:38.15\00:24:40.37
with whatever
church you belong to,
00:24:40.38\00:24:41.96
but if you're under conviction.
00:24:41.97\00:24:43.09
And at the end of
the day I believe that's
00:24:43.10\00:24:45.96
what it-- it all comes down to.
00:24:45.97\00:24:47.54
What Shakespeare
said, you must be true to--
00:24:47.55\00:24:50.03
"to thine own self be true."
00:24:50.04\00:24:51.93
Yes. And that's
what God expects of us.
00:24:51.94\00:24:54.73
I mean, he wants obedience
00:24:54.74\00:24:56.58
but we can only
obedient when we're honest
00:24:56.59\00:24:59.40
in our mind and our
inclinations toward God
00:24:59.41\00:25:02.45
and He will guard
that, not everybody see's
00:25:02.46\00:25:04.80
everything the same
way at any given instance.
00:25:04.81\00:25:06.94
Right, but the obligation
00:25:06.95\00:25:08.25
is upon us to act honestly
from an internal motivation.
00:25:08.26\00:25:12.85
Not because someone
else, some other church,
00:25:12.86\00:25:15.26
some state, entity
or whatever tells us.
00:25:15.27\00:25:16.80
And that's in the
best sense goes back
00:25:16.81\00:25:20.69
to the reformation,
00:25:20.70\00:25:21.93
the dynamic of the reformation.
00:25:21.94\00:25:23.65
Got to be
convicted in your own mind
00:25:23.66\00:25:25.71
that this is what God
and morality requires of me.
00:25:25.72\00:25:30.49
And it doesn't come
by political persuasion,
00:25:30.50\00:25:32.69
because it was a
surge of new interest in
00:25:32.70\00:25:35.87
a particular segment of
a major political party,
00:25:35.88\00:25:37.95
as we have here
in the United States.
00:25:37.96\00:25:39.84
It has to come
from a conscious effort
00:25:39.85\00:25:42.45
of pursuing truth and
doing the will of God.
00:25:42.46\00:25:45.38
It's not gonna come
because of a whimsical feeling
00:25:45.39\00:25:48.94
and even to the point
that people are energized
00:25:48.95\00:25:52.40
by a particular party or
set of energetic thoughts,
00:25:52.41\00:25:57.26
they're really only motivated
00:25:57.27\00:25:59.66
for now and then
something else comes
00:25:59.67\00:26:01.68
along and move them. Absolutely.
00:26:01.69\00:26:02.95
And you're
right, as a last warning
00:26:02.96\00:26:05.49
I guess in the
United States for coming up
00:26:05.50\00:26:08.11
to the silly season of politics.
00:26:08.12\00:26:09.37
And we can expect
religion to be mixed in with it
00:26:09.38\00:26:12.23
and we should be aware of that.
00:26:12.24\00:26:13.23
Political religion
is never a solution.
00:26:13.24\00:26:15.31
Well the reason
it's never a solution is
00:26:15.32\00:26:17.90
because it doesn't
solve the problem ultimately.
00:26:17.91\00:26:20.32
And what God
gives us in His word
00:26:20.33\00:26:22.86
is something very clear.
00:26:22.87\00:26:24.39
Jesus summarized it
in two basic principles,
00:26:24.40\00:26:28.11
"Thou shalt love the Lord
thy God with all thy heart,
00:26:28.12\00:26:30.36
and thy neighbor as thyself."
00:26:30.37\00:26:32.41
Well if we love God
purposefully lovingly
00:26:32.42\00:26:34.89
as He loves us
then we'll have a very
00:26:34.90\00:26:36.87
different attitude
about other people.
00:26:36.88\00:26:38.95
And if we love our
neighbors as ourselves
00:26:38.96\00:26:41.31
we'll seek to do them justice
and goodness and not harm.
00:26:41.32\00:26:45.54
A prison
situation is clearly fought
00:26:47.83\00:26:50.27
with a lot of
emotion, a lot is at stake.
00:26:50.28\00:26:52.75
Liberty is being
lost, but personality
00:26:52.76\00:26:56.19
and
individuality is still at play.
00:26:56.20\00:26:58.22
It is very interesting
to read in the Book of Acts
00:26:58.23\00:27:00.51
the experience of Paul
and Silas there in prison
00:27:00.52\00:27:04.19
for their faith and then
a great earthquake stirred
00:27:04.20\00:27:08.05
everything up, freed
most of the prisoners.
00:27:08.06\00:27:10.17
The prison keeper, the
guard was ready to kill
00:27:10.18\00:27:14.47
himself out of desperation
that the prisoners that escaped.
00:27:14.48\00:27:17.24
Then Paul answered
him, reassuringly that
00:27:18.18\00:27:21.33
because of their
faith and their integrity
00:27:21.34\00:27:23.82
they were still there,
he should not kill himself.
00:27:23.83\00:27:26.25
A great revival ensured.
00:27:26.26\00:27:28.52
The jailor was
converted and his whole family.
00:27:28.53\00:27:32.86
I think we can draw a
little parallel to that,
00:27:33.72\00:27:36.42
and today's
experience of prison.
00:27:36.43\00:27:38.79
Many of these men are in there
00:27:38.80\00:27:41.85
with self inflecting
wounds with no question.
00:27:41.86\00:27:45.09
But in prison,
they are receptive
00:27:45.10\00:27:47.70
to somebody
bringing them the good news.
00:27:47.71\00:27:50.17
They need to have
the religious freedom
00:27:50.18\00:27:52.95
in opposing the
ability to choose the best,
00:27:52.96\00:27:56.61
to seek God and to find
redemption even in the most
00:27:56.62\00:28:01.75
irredeemable replacement.
00:28:01.76\00:28:04.30
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:05.49\00:28:08.59