Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Samuel Thomas
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000142
|
00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:24 This is the program that brings you up to date 00:26 news, views discussion and information on 00:28 religious liberty developments 00:30 in the United States and around the world. 00:33 My name is Lincoln Steed, 00:35 Editor of Liberty Magazine and my guest 00:38 on the program is Sam Thomas, 00:40 welcome very much. Thank you, Lincoln. 00:42 To the program not your first time, 00:44 but maybe for some of our viewers it is. 00:47 Let's talk about some of the things that are 00:50 happening in the United States 00:52 in our world on religious dress. 00:56 It's been quite a while since 00:57 Seventh-day Adventist had any sort of dress code 01:00 or you know way back at the beginning of about 01:03 church Ellen White toyed with the idea of 01:06 what did they call it again, I'm trying to remember 01:09 there was a dress that was recommended. 01:12 I don't know you are beyond me. 01:13 Yeah I'm reaching back into, 01:15 I don't remember personally, 01:17 it was back in the mid 1800s or mid to late 1800s. 01:21 But even in the United States more and more 01:24 you go into shopping mall particularly in some 01:28 of our larger cities and you are likely to see a 01:30 women with the partial head covering now 01:35 and then, the full in Muslim country I think it's 01:40 the chado when it's the whole business, 01:42 we call them burqas and the hijab think is the 01:45 small head covering its very open sign 01:48 of usually well women who is a Muslim. 01:53 Around the world and even in the United States 01:56 the wearing of this has been challenged 02:00 either by society or sometime by legislation. 02:04 In France recently they forbade the wearing 02:07 of the hijab, did you hear about that. 02:12 I did, I did, but you know what comes to... 02:15 By the way I should throw one thing 02:16 in that most people didn't know. 02:18 There was a certain fine for the women but a much 02:21 larger fine for the man who required her to wear that. 02:24 That part I did not hear. 02:25 So it had sort of a women's liberal, 02:28 or women's liberation aim to stop the cohesive nature 02:32 because oftenthe women are required, 02:34 but has been nullify. The question that came 02:36 to my mind when I read about it in the French law, 02:40 was what's really motivating this. 02:42 Now I noted that some have suggested that it's 02:45 because bombs can conveniently 02:48 be hidden under the garb. 02:50 Is that really was motivating it? 02:52 Is it western culture's disfavor to the way 02:57 the women are allegedly treated in all instances 03:00 which we don't know all instances, 03:02 or is it a matter of we are not comfortable 03:06 because we really can't see all of them 03:08 and we are used to a more visible appearance, 03:13 so I should say 03:14 somewhat complete. You kept it to chase, absolutely. 03:15 And this is why Liberty magazine 03:17 I think should show interest in this. 03:19 There is clearly a simplistic legal question, 03:23 whether it's appropriate to restrict religious garb. 03:28 But behind this, there is something 03:30 big that's going on. 03:31 And yes, they might say that there is a security 03:34 question and they could be in some cases, 03:36 but I think what's coming into play here 03:38 is broad-based prejudice by the larger society 03:43 that does not share that religious 03:45 or that cultural well you would say he is the 03:48 objectionable ever, that they don't think it 03:51 should be is, not in my backyard. 03:53 But let me tell you what's interesting, 03:54 I recently had a visit to the Midwest area 03:58 that of Indiana, okay. 04:00 Not too many hijabs. 04:01 No, no at all. The burqas. 04:04 But, what I did was I took the time to visit 04:07 a history of the Amish people in America 04:12 and I learned about their roots in as Anabaptist. 04:16 And all that comes with Amish, 04:20 the Mennonites as well as those who are 04:23 involved in the communal living. 04:25 What's interesting is Americans have never 04:28 decried the idea of the Amish people in their 04:32 simplistic way of living, their dress. 04:35 There are lot of Mennonites that live 04:36 close to my home where you see even the little 04:40 girls dressed in long dresses. 04:42 They are almost, they are very simplistic 04:45 in their appearance and it's almost like 04:48 a cookie cutter, you know, 04:49 in the way that they are dressed. 04:51 But we really don't take issue with that. 04:55 We allow them that freedom of religious expression but. 04:59 What we did now that there is quite a history 05:01 and over the years I know Liberty has dealt 05:03 with that on conscientious 05:05 objection and education issues. 05:09 The Amish and the Mennonites have had 05:12 rocky road in American society 05:15 and with American laws. 05:16 So historically we have had as much difficultly. 05:19 Not as no, not as much, but it's not been 05:22 without some troubles. 05:24 I think what has enabled their lifestyle 05:28 and their continuing existence with these 05:31 dress markers and so on is that they are very 05:33 fairly exclusive communities, 05:35 Amish much more than the Mennonites, 05:37 but still they are clustered, 05:39 they are not sort of out and around. Right. 05:41 Where more and more we are seeing, 05:44 signs just randomly of Muslim women wearing 05:49 head scarves and so on in the U.S at the same 05:52 time as we are told that just over and over again. 05:55 You go into any airport, there is you know, 05:58 what it's orange at the moment, 05:59 it's been orange threat level and, you know, 06:01 Bin Laden is determined to do something 06:03 and of course Bin Laden is a Muslim terrorist. 06:05 It's not that all terrorists are Muslims. 06:08 Who's now to see? 06:09 But still was it just, it just staring people 06:12 up to be suspicious of what is distinctive 06:16 religious expression or at least cultural marker 06:20 of Muslim behavior. 06:23 I like what the term, the phrase you just used 06:26 cultural marker because... 06:28 The Quran doesn't speak to the coverings. 06:31 No, no, but what was interesting is it's 06:33 a cultural marker that shows that we have 06:38 certain fears and certain challenges 06:39 with things that are distinctively different 06:41 than our own, because we can see it 06:44 also in America, I mean we see 06:46 teenagers dress a certain way. 06:48 We wonder if they are in a gang, 06:50 you know all that kind of thing. 06:51 So and you might not be wrong with their friends 06:54 around then they. Yes. 06:56 You might not be wrong, but on a more serious 07:01 note, are we really saying that they should 07:05 have the privilege of wearing the burqas, 07:08 I mean what should be our approach. 07:11 Well, so far in the United States, 07:13 or the Worker's Party. 07:14 The voice has upheld the right. Right. 07:16 Where it's been tested in the United States 07:20 legally is in relation to pictures for licenses 07:23 which seems so illogical to me. Certainly! 07:26 And licenses for identification purposes. 07:28 There is no identification 07:29 if you got a picture of someone 07:31 with the full face covering. 07:33 So that's the intersection 07:35 of religious freedom and just things that need 07:38 to be done for the public good whether, you know, 07:41 it's not an absolute freedom, 07:42 it's a collision of rights and that seems 07:46 reasonable to impact the wearing of this 07:51 religious covering for identification purposes. 07:54 But in Europe, you know they have vary of that 07:57 laws that is clearly aimed at just removing 07:59 this marker entirely. 08:01 I was in Australia recently, you know, 08:03 country I'm from, but I don't live there. 08:06 I haven't lived there for many decades. 08:09 But while I was down there, 08:10 there was very high profile case in the media. 08:14 A women wearing a full head and face covering 08:18 was stopped for some traffic infringement. 08:23 And on the news they actually had 08:24 the police video, you know, police in their car, 08:26 they have video now that takes it all in real time. 08:29 And the policeman was very calm, 08:31 he didn't harass her or anything, 08:32 but he asked for her license and then he 08:36 asked to see her face, to see if this was the women. 08:39 And she lit out after him, swearing at him, 08:41 saying he was racist and all the rest, 08:43 no way she gonna do this. 08:44 And there was an altercation 08:47 and in the end she brought charge 08:49 against him for police mistreatment. 08:54 And they put a charge against her, 08:55 I forget what it was, but she was brought up 08:57 on charges for her behavior. 09:01 And it was very interesting that 09:03 the judge actually dismissed the case saying 09:06 that since she never removed her burqa 09:11 and if they could not be legally sure that 09:13 she was the women that was charged with the garb. 09:17 Which makes me believe the next time around 09:19 they will be very certain to make sure she takes it off. 09:23 So a victory and this is what I see in some 09:26 religious liberty cases. 09:27 Sometimes a victory is really well, 09:30 you know, the old statement 09:31 "a Pyrrhic victory" from a Greek a term. 09:33 You can win that, 09:34 but it can be a win that actually alienates 09:37 the public mood and so next time 09:39 you will loose legally and societally 09:42 So where do you see all of this going? 09:45 Well, I think it's a provocation to a secular 09:48 mindset with us in your face religious behavior 09:51 that the society might find defensive. 09:54 And while in theory obviously we should 09:58 respect the right of someone to dress 10:01 and act according to their religious conscience. 10:05 If it's social provocation, 10:08 we need to expect some backlash. 10:11 And I'm not saying that the old Muslim women 10:13 wearing that doing it just to aggravates you, 10:16 but I'm quite certain that there is new found 10:20 sense that they are gonna parade it, 10:24 and I don't know the answer, 10:25 because but I wouldn't, it would be 10:26 irresponsible and country 10:28 to the principles of Liberty Magazine to say well 10:30 Muslim women should not wear the burqa, 10:33 you should not wear the hijab. 10:34 But I'm quite certain that in our context 10:38 of stress after 9/11 the sense of religious 10:44 conflict, clash of civilizations as was 10:50 written famously by, I'm trying to think 10:52 of a professor few years ago, Samuel Huntington. 10:58 In that context this increased display on 11:05 earth lightened suspicion 11:08 in the community and you know what Jesus say, 11:11 you know, to live in a way before men's 11:14 that they see you know they see a witness 11:17 and are persuaded by that, not to be like the Pharisees, 11:20 you know, parade and so on so. 11:24 Religion has an element of rights, 11:26 but is also has element of direct communication 11:31 between people and a few offend them by an 11:34 unnecessary display, 11:36 I think it can be kind of predictive. 11:37 So I'm really saying this by way of caution 11:41 to religious groups not saying 11:43 they don't have the right. 11:44 We will defend the right, 11:46 we must defend the right to the death if need be 11:49 for anyone to believe and to hold 11:52 and even proselytize especially to proselytize 11:55 any faith or any faith group or a faith belief. 12:00 But in the dynami we are living in there 12:02 is no question that it's acting as a provocation. 12:05 It's really a negative stimulation for society, 12:09 yeah... I don't know the answer to it, 12:11 but I just describing it as it happens, 12:13 I can see that and they are not the only ones, 12:18 there is the Sikhs with their dress. 12:21 They are the Amish and the Mennonites 12:25 who they don't offend people day-to-day this been 12:29 times when they have during World War Two, 12:30 they were not highly thought off, 12:32 not that they were seen as draft dodges. 12:35 We will be back after the break to further 12:37 pursue this issue of public display 12:41 of religion dress and where we are in the current 12:44 cultural war if you like that 12:48 has religion at the center. 12:59 One-hundred years, a long time to do anything 13:02 much less publish a magazine, but this year Liberty, 13:06 the Seventh-day Adventist voice of religious freedom, 13:09 celebrates one hundred years of doing what it does best, 13:13 collecting, analyzing, and reporting the ebb 13:16 and flow of religious expression around the world. 13:19 Issue after issue, 13:20 Liberty has taken on the tough assignments, 13:23 tracking down threats to religious freedom 13:25 and exposing the work of the devil 13:27 in every corner of the globe. 13:29 Governmental interference, personal attacks, 13:32 corporate assaults, even religious freedom issues 13:35 sequestered within the church community itself 13:37 have been clearly and honestly exposed. 13:39 Liberty exists for one purpose 13:42 to help God's people maintain 13:44 that all important separation of Church and State, 13:47 while recognizing the dangers inherent in such a struggle. 13:51 During the past century, Liberty has experienced 13:54 challenges of its own, but it remains on the job. 13:57 Thanks to the inspired leadership of a long line 14:00 of dedicated Adventist Editors, 14:01 three of whom represent almost half 14:03 of the publications existence and the foresight 14:06 of a little woman from New England. 14:08 One hundred years of struggle, 14:10 one hundred years of victories, 14:13 religious freedom isn't just about 14:15 political machines and cultural prejudices. 14:18 It's about people fighting 14:20 for the right to serve the God 14:22 they love as their hearts and the Holy Spirit dictate. 14:25 Thanks to the prayers and generous support 14:28 of Seventh-day Adventists everywhere. 14:30 Liberty will continue to accomplish 14:32 its work of providing 14:33 timely information, spirit filled inspiration, 14:36 and heaven sent encouragement 14:38 to all who long to live and work 14:41 in a world bound together by the God ordained 14:44 bonds of religious freedom. 14:57 Welcome back this is the Liberty Insider program. 15:00 I'm Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine, 15:02 talking to my guest Sam Thomas. 15:06 Let's change direction slightly there. 15:09 Again using as a reference my recent 15:11 trip to Australia, which is always nostalgic for me. 15:16 I grew up in Australia, the smell 15:17 of the eucalyptus leaves gets me going. 15:19 And you tell me I was little excited the last 15:24 segment, maybe it was just the stimulative 15:26 thing about Australia. 15:27 But when I was back there and I grow up 15:30 in Sydney, I decided to take my family even 15:34 that was winter, but not, you know, 15:37 snowfall or anything like that 15:38 just a slightly chilly day. 15:41 I decided to take the family from the Northern Suburbs 15:45 cutting this across toward the coast 15:48 either beach where we used to swim. 15:50 And there is lot of empty land even though 15:52 its closer to the city between there so we were 15:54 basically driving through the woodlands 15:56 and then I saw on the top of the tallest hill 15:59 over looking the coast something that brought 16:01 me back to childhood memories, 16:02 it look like the Taj Mahal. 16:05 Most of our viewers, I'm sure know the classic 16:07 shape of the Taj Mahal. 16:08 Same shape, same white marble look alike, 16:12 wasn't made out of marble and we pulled in 16:14 and we spend an interesting hour 16:16 or so looking through the temple of one 16:19 of the better term of Baha'i Faith. 16:24 Have you heard much of that Baha'i's. 16:25 Well, I did little reading on the Baha'i Faith once. 16:29 I was pastoring in the city where a Baha'i 16:33 House of Worship was very closed 16:35 to the residence, my residence so. 16:38 I had a chance to read about, you know, 16:40 this belief of bringing all faiths together. 16:42 Well, that's one element of it, yes. 16:44 It's a spin off from Islamic culture 16:47 and I knew it quite a bit about them. 16:50 And I as the child I have gone to this center. 16:53 But, I really couldn't say I was knowledgeable 16:55 at that point, but I remembered it. 16:58 I went and studied, well actually read 17:00 the materials while we were there that day 17:01 and something struck me, that the, 17:04 I forget the man's full name, 17:05 but he is known as the Bob, 17:07 the fellow in around that came up with the 17:10 concept of Baha'i Faith. 17:13 He came up in the mid 1800s and that sort 17:16 of rang a sudden bell with me, 17:17 you know the Jehovah's witnesses, the Mormons, 17:21 the Christian scientists, 17:24 who else about the spiritualism 17:27 Seventh-day Adventists. 17:29 Let me date it 100s a lot of beliefs 17:32 and sectarian views leveled up, 17:36 there was something going on. 17:37 And in the Islamic world this leader rose up 17:41 and he believed that he was the Messiah in Christian 17:44 terminology or Juda, I guess Old Testament 17:47 Judaistic terminology. 17:49 But in the Islamic context he was the 17:56 promised one, the Makti, which of course as Jesus 18:03 claims with the Jewess rather shocking claim 18:06 to make in Muslim community you better really be or 18:10 else you are going to called heretic 18:11 and that in a nutshell explains why the Baha'i today 18:15 are persecuted often viciously in Islamic world. 18:20 In Iran in recent years, hundreds of thousands 18:24 have been killed and in other countries 18:28 they are ostracized and openly persecuted. 18:31 So this mean to connection are you saying that 18:34 because of the identification with messianic figure, 18:37 that puts that give creates 18:40 in strange relationship with Islam. 18:42 What it does with Islam. 18:44 First of all there is universal aspect to it, 18:47 that you identified and Islam is the one true 18:49 religion, so they broadened it from Islam 18:52 they arrives from Islam and he is now 18:54 the Messiah figure, so they are heretics to Islam. 18:58 They have left Islam turn their back on that faith, 19:00 creating a new faith view that other 19:03 non-Muslims find attractive, 19:05 because it has universal sort of an appeal to. 19:08 It's a new age type appealed to people just, 19:13 so they love each other and look to one eternal 19:16 deity, doesn't really identifying 19:18 as the Old Testament God. 19:20 But all intensive purposes it's a very 19:22 benign non-specific faith, 19:27 but in the Islamic world is seen us directly 19:29 heretical persecuted, persecuted viciously. 19:34 I mentioned on this program before that in 19:38 at the World Conference we had in South Africa. 19:41 We had a leading figure from Iranian Government, 19:45 he was invited as a president few years back 19:48 and he got up when he was giving his 19:51 presentation someone asked him about 19:52 persecution of the Baha'i's and we thought 19:55 he would give some charitable reply. 19:57 And he says oh no, he says they deserve 19:59 what they got, because they back the wrong regime, 20:02 phenomenal view. 20:04 So the Baha'i's are persecuted group. 20:08 And so we need to recognize and I'm saying 20:11 this for purpose, because when we talk 20:13 about the war on terror, and the classic civilizations 20:19 on the East and the West 20:21 and Islamic and Christianity. 20:22 We forget that there are groups on the fringes 20:25 of both Christianity and Islam who are persecuted 20:29 by one or both of the factions. 20:32 When we discover this type of persecution 20:36 in your research has it been primarily because 20:38 of simple religious differences or 20:41 adaptations of religious beliefs or there is 20:44 something more to it that... 20:46 Well, with the Baha'i's there its absolutely 20:48 because they are seen as heretical set, 20:52 that they have denied the Prophet, 20:55 see in essence by saying that 20:58 he is the Messiah figure. 21:03 It diminishes the prominence of Mohammad. 21:05 Yeah he is in essence moved into role of Mohammad. Okay. 21:09 So that's absolutely heretical and of course 21:13 in the realm of religious ideas, 21:15 we have to hold someone's right 21:16 to believe that or anything else. Right. 21:18 But too many religions and Islam is not 21:21 the only one, Christianity has its, 21:22 has and still a share will condemn, 21:26 ostracize and even overtly persecute groups 21:29 for having different viewpoints. 21:31 Now let me get on to something that some 21:34 Seventh-day Adventists might misunderstand. 21:36 When we support everybody's right 21:38 to believe whatever their conscience draws them 21:42 too, that doesn't mean that we should 21:44 automatically encourage or support within 21:48 a church group, any dissident group that 21:51 want to thumb their nose at what, 21:53 by with the baptism, you know, 21:57 membership or calling 21:58 whatever the group have agreed to. 22:00 It's a legitimate right of any religious group 22:03 to hold their viewpoint and if someone departs 22:06 from that, well, you know, sorry, you know, 22:09 one of us any more, that's not the same 22:11 as religious persecution. 22:13 So how do we define religious persecution in his context? 22:17 Well, would be depriving people 22:19 of their rights of free thought. 22:21 We are depriving people of their right to human 22:26 interchange, depriving them of their living, 22:28 penalizing them of course usually 22:30 government do this are the property or 22:34 employment that sort of things. 22:36 But just to say that you we don't agree with you 22:39 that you are holding this viewpoint, 22:41 you know, you are not one of us anymore that's 22:45 not in itself persecution they comes 22:47 parting of the way, you know, 22:49 the Bible says so and so, 22:50 he is no longer with us, he has departed, you know. 22:53 And we need to be careful the persecution 22:55 is not just difference of opinion and the world 22:59 is in the process, I think that United Nations 23:01 Nations level and down into the national level 23:03 of thinking it can solve the religious 23:07 differences by edicts against criticizing 23:11 another religion or proclaiming your belief 23:14 that differs from another or you 23:17 if you say that you believe something and they hold 23:19 another deity and they can say, 23:21 well this is defamation of my religion, 23:24 that those things shouldn't be allowed, 23:25 because they can be, definitely be persecution. 23:29 But there are times when belief systems create 23:32 difference in the person no longer has anything 23:35 in common with that group, that's their right. 23:38 And if that group says that you can't remain 23:41 a callithumpian to make up 23:44 a term believing that, then you move on. 23:46 We often here about persecution, 23:48 religious persecution and let's use 23:51 the context of apposing religious groups 23:55 or faiths or orders between 23:57 Christianity and Islam for example. 24:00 But what does it look like 24:01 when we see within Christianity? 24:03 Well it can look very messy and nasty, 24:05 it can be very prejudice, 24:07 looking as it with down south, 24:10 you know there were cases of people being 24:15 literally driven out of their homes because 24:16 they share different view going further back. 24:20 But I think was Christian persecution. 24:23 The whole social structure of the south 24:25 was justified by theological religious 24:31 construct and used then as a justification to go 24:36 out and literally harass people, 24:39 order their lives, tell them where they can do, 24:41 what they can do and so on, that's persecution. 24:44 Or take it further field South Africa 24:46 in the apartheid idea 24:48 that was all done on doctrinal basis. 24:51 People forget it now, but there was a doctrine 24:53 in a Dutch Reform Church that justified 24:56 the mistreatment of many within that society, 24:59 that's religious persecution in my view. 25:01 Passing is a political turmoil. 25:04 So it starts with a biblical underpinning 25:07 or theological underpinning. 25:09 Absolutely, very often. 25:10 And moves with moves forward 25:11 with the political phase. 25:12 The biggest issue through history usually 25:15 have a grand philosophy behind them. 25:18 It's not enough for some, you know, 25:20 or do they come up and say I believe this 25:22 or whatever as they do. 25:24 But usually it appeals to some great scheme 25:26 and the greatest schemes of the God's if heaven 25:30 is mandated this, this is the view, you know, 25:33 the divine book say such and such, 25:35 that can be used to justify the most 25:37 egregious mistreatment of fellowmen or the most 25:41 bizarre constructive society to restrict 25:44 people who believe differently. 25:45 So how do we get there? 25:48 Well I think the way to get there at least 25:51 to inoculate ourselves against is to do 25:53 what is even with Liberty Magazine 25:55 was sometimes accused of. 25:56 Encourage what can be accused of is being 25:59 sort of a liberal mindset. 26:02 You and I are Seventh-day Adventists. 26:04 We believe this, I mean this is not just sort 26:07 of give it, take it or leave it type belief, 26:10 you know, I believe its worthy dying 26:12 for the faith that I see in the Bible. 26:14 But as far as religious liberty I have to allow 26:17 people to believe anything. 26:19 As I told one religious leader, you know, 26:22 your religion can be pure out to me, 26:24 it can be the craziest sort of nonsense, 26:26 that's your right to believe that. 26:28 And I should be prepared if you are challenged 26:31 in that to go to the very ends 26:34 and defend it with my life if necessary. 26:36 Oh, that's challenging statement 26:38 and we are all challenged by that. 26:39 And how we live it, it has to be according 26:42 to the word of God and our example, Jesus Christ. 26:47 It used to be said that dress makes the man, 26:51 I guess you can say the women also. 26:53 But there is no question that very often 26:56 we define ourselves and others categorize us 26:59 by what we wear. 27:00 I know at the General Conference where I work 27:03 for the North American division 27:05 of the Seventh-day Adventist church this our world 27:07 headquarters, dress has been important although 27:10 of late they have adopted 27:11 the standard of business casual. 27:14 People define that differently, 27:16 but I think you can usually tell a minister 27:19 by the way he dresses. 27:20 I know when two men come to the door dressed 27:24 in severe dark business suits, 27:26 I know I'm in for Bible study. 27:29 There is no question that in the world today 27:31 is clash of religious civilizations. 27:34 The issue of religious dress has become contentious. 27:38 There is no question, but it's legitimate 27:40 for people to define themselves by their dress. 27:43 But what is more important to me 27:45 and I think we should not loose sight of it is 27:47 the witness, the personal testimony, 27:50 the faith stands that's exemplified by the life, 27:54 not just that we have a certain head dress 27:58 that we wear a certain suit, but that we ask 28:01 something, we stand for something. 28:04 For Liberty Insider this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17