Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
that brings you up to date
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news, views
discussion and information on
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religious liberty developments
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in the United States
and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
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Editor of Liberty
Magazine and my guest
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on the program is Sam Thomas,
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welcome very much.
Thank you, Lincoln.
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To the program
not your first time,
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but maybe for some
of our viewers it is.
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Let's talk about some
of the things that are
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happening in the United States
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in our world on religious dress.
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It's been quite a while since
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Seventh-day Adventist
had any sort of dress code
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or you know way back
at the beginning of about
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church Ellen White
toyed with the idea of
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what did they call it
again, I'm trying to remember
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there was a dress
that was recommended.
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I don't know you are beyond me.
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Yeah I'm reaching back into,
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I don't remember personally,
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it was back in the mid
1800s or mid to late 1800s.
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But even in the
United States more and more
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you go into shopping
mall particularly in some
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of our larger cities
and you are likely to see a
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women with the
partial head covering now
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and then, the full in
Muslim country I think it's
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the chado when
it's the whole business,
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we call them burqas
and the hijab think is the
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small head
covering its very open sign
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of usually well
women who is a Muslim.
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Around the world and
even in the United States
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the wearing of
this has been challenged
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either by society or
sometime by legislation.
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In France recently
they forbade the wearing
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of the hijab, did
you hear about that.
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I did, I did, but
you know what comes to...
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By the way I
should throw one thing
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in that most people didn't know.
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There was a certain
fine for the women but a much
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larger fine for the man
who required her to wear that.
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That part I did not hear.
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So it had sort of
a women's liberal,
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or women's liberation aim
to stop the cohesive nature
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because oftenthe
women are required,
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but has been nullify.
The question that came
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to my mind when I read
about it in the French law,
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was what's
really motivating this.
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Now I noted that some
have suggested that it's
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because bombs can conveniently
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be hidden under the garb.
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Is that really
was motivating it?
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Is it western
culture's disfavor to the way
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the women are allegedly
treated in all instances
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which we don't
know all instances,
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or is it a matter of
we are not comfortable
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because we really
can't see all of them
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and we are used to a
more visible appearance,
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so I should say
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somewhat complete. You
kept it to chase, absolutely.
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And this is why Liberty magazine
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I think should
show interest in this.
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There is clearly a
simplistic legal question,
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whether it's appropriate
to restrict religious garb.
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But behind this,
there is something
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big that's going on.
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And yes, they might say
that there is a security
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question and they
could be in some cases,
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but I think what's
coming into play here
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is broad-based
prejudice by the larger society
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that does not
share that religious
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or that cultural well
you would say he is the
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objectionable ever,
that they don't think it
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should be is,
not in my backyard.
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But let me tell
you what's interesting,
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I recently had a
visit to the Midwest area
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that of Indiana, okay.
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Not too many hijabs.
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No, no at all. The burqas.
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But, what I did was I
took the time to visit
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a history of the
Amish people in America
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and I learned about
their roots in as Anabaptist.
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And all that comes with Amish,
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the Mennonites as
well as those who are
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involved in the communal living.
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What's interesting
is Americans have never
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decried the idea of
the Amish people in their
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simplistic way of
living, their dress.
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There are lot of
Mennonites that live
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close to my home where
you see even the little
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girls dressed in long dresses.
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They are almost,
they are very simplistic
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in their appearance
and it's almost like
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a cookie cutter, you know,
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in the way that
they are dressed.
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But we really don't
take issue with that.
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We allow them that freedom
of religious expression but.
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What we did now that
there is quite a history
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and over the years I
know Liberty has dealt
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with that on conscientious
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objection and education issues.
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The Amish and the
Mennonites have had
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rocky road in American society
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and with American laws.
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So historically we have
had as much difficultly.
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Not as no, not as
much, but it's not been
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without some troubles.
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I think what has
enabled their lifestyle
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and their
continuing existence with these
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dress markers and so
on is that they are very
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fairly exclusive communities,
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Amish much more
than the Mennonites,
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but still they are clustered,
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they are not sort of
out and around. Right.
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Where more and
more we are seeing,
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signs just randomly
of Muslim women wearing
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head scarves and so
on in the U.S at the same
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time as we are told that
just over and over again.
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You go into any
airport, there is you know,
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what it's orange at the moment,
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it's been orange
threat level and, you know,
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Bin Laden is
determined to do something
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and of course Bin
Laden is a Muslim terrorist.
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It's not that all
terrorists are Muslims.
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Who's now to see?
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But still was it
just, it just staring people
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up to be suspicious
of what is distinctive
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religious expression or
at least cultural marker
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of Muslim behavior.
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I like what the term,
the phrase you just used
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cultural marker because...
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The Quran doesn't
speak to the coverings.
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No, no, but what
was interesting is it's
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a cultural marker
that shows that we have
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certain fears and
certain challenges
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with things that are
distinctively different
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than our own,
because we can see it
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also in America, I mean we see
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teenagers dress a certain way.
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We wonder if they are in a gang,
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you know all that kind of thing.
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So and you might not be
wrong with their friends
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around then they. Yes.
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You might not be
wrong, but on a more serious
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note, are we really
saying that they should
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have the privilege
of wearing the burqas,
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I mean what
should be our approach.
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Well, so far in
the United States,
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or the Worker's Party.
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The voice has
upheld the right. Right.
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Where it's been
tested in the United States
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legally is in relation
to pictures for licenses
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which seems so
illogical to me. Certainly!
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And licenses for
identification purposes.
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There is no identification
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if you got a picture of someone
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with the full face covering.
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So that's the intersection
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of religious freedom
and just things that need
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to be done for the
public good whether, you know,
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it's not an absolute freedom,
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it's a collision of
rights and that seems
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reasonable to
impact the wearing of this
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religious covering for
identification purposes.
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But in Europe, you
know they have vary of that
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laws that is clearly
aimed at just removing
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this marker entirely.
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I was in Australia
recently, you know,
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country I'm from,
but I don't live there.
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I haven't lived
there for many decades.
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But while I was down there,
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there was very high
profile case in the media.
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A women wearing a
full head and face covering
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was stopped for some
traffic infringement.
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And on the news
they actually had
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the police video, you
know, police in their car,
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they have video now that
takes it all in real time.
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And the policeman was very calm,
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he didn't
harass her or anything,
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but he asked for
her license and then he
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asked to see her face, to
see if this was the women.
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And she lit out
after him, swearing at him,
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saying he was
racist and all the rest,
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no way she gonna do this.
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And there was an altercation
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and in the end
she brought charge
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against him for
police mistreatment.
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And they put a
charge against her,
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I forget what it was,
but she was brought up
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on charges for her behavior.
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And it was very interesting that
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the judge actually
dismissed the case saying
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that since she
never removed her burqa
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and if they could
not be legally sure that
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she was the women that
was charged with the garb.
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Which makes me
believe the next time around
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they will be very certain
to make sure she takes it off.
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So a victory and
this is what I see in some
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religious liberty cases.
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Sometimes a
victory is really well,
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you know, the old statement
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"a Pyrrhic victory"
from a Greek a term.
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You can win that,
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but it can be a win
that actually alienates
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the public mood and so next time
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you will loose
legally and societally
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So where do you
see all of this going?
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Well, I think it's a
provocation to a secular
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mindset with us in
your face religious behavior
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that the society
might find defensive.
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And while in
theory obviously we should
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respect the right
of someone to dress
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and act according to
their religious conscience.
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If it's social provocation,
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we need to expect some backlash.
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And I'm not saying
that the old Muslim women
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wearing that doing it
just to aggravates you,
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but I'm quite certain
that there is new found
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sense that they
are gonna parade it,
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and I don't know the answer,
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because but I
wouldn't, it would be
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irresponsible and country
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to the principles of
Liberty Magazine to say well
00:10:28.62\00:10:30.68
Muslim women
should not wear the burqa,
00:10:30.69\00:10:33.85
you should not wear the hijab.
00:10:33.86\00:10:34.96
But I'm quite
certain that in our context
00:10:34.97\00:10:38.43
of stress after 9/11
the sense of religious
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conflict, clash of
civilizations as was
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written famously
by, I'm trying to think
00:10:50.36\00:10:52.74
of a professor few
years ago, Samuel Huntington.
00:10:52.75\00:10:58.85
In that context
this increased display on
00:10:58.86\00:11:05.31
earth lightened suspicion
00:11:05.32\00:11:08.42
in the community and
you know what Jesus say,
00:11:08.43\00:11:11.31
you know, to live
in a way before men's
00:11:11.32\00:11:14.45
that they see you
know they see a witness
00:11:14.46\00:11:17.04
and are persuaded by that,
not to be like the Pharisees,
00:11:17.05\00:11:20.55
you know, parade and so on so.
00:11:20.56\00:11:24.01
Religion has an
element of rights,
00:11:24.02\00:11:26.11
but is also has
element of direct communication
00:11:26.12\00:11:31.14
between people and a
few offend them by an
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unnecessary display,
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I think it can be
kind of predictive.
00:11:36.07\00:11:37.49
So I'm really saying
this by way of caution
00:11:37.50\00:11:41.74
to religious groups not saying
00:11:41.75\00:11:43.31
they don't have the right.
00:11:43.32\00:11:44.29
We will defend the right,
00:11:44.30\00:11:46.09
we must defend the
right to the death if need be
00:11:46.10\00:11:49.28
for anyone to
believe and to hold
00:11:49.29\00:11:52.39
and even proselytize
especially to proselytize
00:11:52.40\00:11:55.27
any faith or any faith
group or a faith belief.
00:11:55.28\00:12:00.50
But in the dynami
we are living in there
00:12:00.51\00:12:02.09
is no question that
it's acting as a provocation.
00:12:02.10\00:12:05.46
It's really a negative
stimulation for society,
00:12:05.47\00:12:09.33
yeah... I don't
know the answer to it,
00:12:09.34\00:12:11.81
but I just
describing it as it happens,
00:12:11.82\00:12:13.93
I can see that and
they are not the only ones,
00:12:13.94\00:12:18.35
there is the
Sikhs with their dress.
00:12:18.36\00:12:21.80
They are the
Amish and the Mennonites
00:12:21.81\00:12:25.36
who they don't offend
people day-to-day this been
00:12:25.37\00:12:29.13
times when they have
during World War Two,
00:12:29.14\00:12:30.75
they were not
highly thought off,
00:12:30.76\00:12:32.88
not that they were
seen as draft dodges.
00:12:32.89\00:12:35.25
We will be back
after the break to further
00:12:35.26\00:12:37.70
pursue this
issue of public display
00:12:37.71\00:12:41.29
of religion dress and
where we are in the current
00:12:41.30\00:12:44.21
cultural war if you like that
00:12:44.22\00:12:48.73
has religion at the center.
00:12:48.74\00:12:49.88
One-hundred years, a
long time to do anything
00:12:59.32\00:13:02.85
much less publish a
magazine, but this year Liberty,
00:13:02.86\00:13:06.93
the Seventh-day Adventist
voice of religious freedom,
00:13:06.94\00:13:09.51
celebrates one hundred years
of doing what it does best,
00:13:09.52\00:13:13.11
collecting,
analyzing, and reporting the ebb
00:13:13.12\00:13:16.61
and flow of religious
expression around the world.
00:13:16.62\00:13:19.64
Issue after issue,
00:13:19.65\00:13:20.92
Liberty has taken on
the tough assignments,
00:13:20.93\00:13:23.67
tracking down
threats to religious freedom
00:13:23.68\00:13:25.78
and exposing the
work of the devil
00:13:25.79\00:13:27.32
in every corner of the globe.
00:13:27.33\00:13:29.38
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:29.39\00:13:32.14
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom issues
00:13:32.15\00:13:35.04
sequestered within the
church community itself
00:13:35.05\00:13:37.19
have been clearly
and honestly exposed.
00:13:37.20\00:13:39.83
Liberty exists for one purpose
00:13:39.84\00:13:42.40
to help God's people maintain
00:13:42.41\00:13:44.62
that all important
separation of Church and State,
00:13:44.63\00:13:47.61
while recognizing the dangers
inherent in such a struggle.
00:13:47.62\00:13:51.81
During the past
century, Liberty has experienced
00:13:51.82\00:13:54.34
challenges of its own,
but it remains on the job.
00:13:54.35\00:13:57.35
Thanks to the inspired
leadership of a long line
00:13:57.36\00:14:00.45
of dedicated Adventist Editors,
00:14:00.46\00:14:01.86
three of whom
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00:14:01.87\00:14:03.90
of the publications
existence and the foresight
00:14:03.91\00:14:06.60
of a little
woman from New England.
00:14:06.61\00:14:08.54
One hundred years of struggle,
00:14:08.55\00:14:10.67
one hundred years of victories,
00:14:10.68\00:14:13.06
religious
freedom isn't just about
00:14:13.07\00:14:15.08
political machines
and cultural prejudices.
00:14:15.09\00:14:17.98
It's about people fighting
00:14:17.99\00:14:20.39
for the right to serve the God
00:14:20.40\00:14:22.02
they love as their hearts
and the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:22.03\00:14:25.86
Thanks to the
prayers and generous support
00:14:25.87\00:14:28.38
of Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere.
00:14:28.39\00:14:30.54
Liberty will
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00:14:30.55\00:14:32.74
its work of providing
00:14:32.75\00:14:33.72
timely information,
spirit filled inspiration,
00:14:33.73\00:14:36.24
and heaven sent encouragement
00:14:36.25\00:14:38.14
to all who long to live and work
00:14:38.15\00:14:41.02
in a world bound
together by the God ordained
00:14:41.03\00:14:44.11
bonds of religious freedom.
00:14:44.12\00:14:46.93
Welcome back this is
the Liberty Insider program.
00:14:57.46\00:15:00.39
I'm Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine,
00:15:00.40\00:15:02.62
talking to my guest Sam Thomas.
00:15:02.63\00:15:06.08
Let's change
direction slightly there.
00:15:06.09\00:15:09.15
Again using as a
reference my recent
00:15:09.16\00:15:11.93
trip to Australia, which
is always nostalgic for me.
00:15:11.94\00:15:16.04
I grew up in
Australia, the smell
00:15:16.05\00:15:17.71
of the eucalyptus
leaves gets me going.
00:15:17.72\00:15:19.87
And you tell me I was
little excited the last
00:15:19.88\00:15:24.16
segment, maybe it
was just the stimulative
00:15:24.17\00:15:26.20
thing about Australia.
00:15:26.21\00:15:27.21
But when I was
back there and I grow up
00:15:27.22\00:15:30.74
in Sydney, I decided
to take my family even
00:15:30.75\00:15:34.37
that was winter,
but not, you know,
00:15:34.38\00:15:37.15
snowfall or anything like that
00:15:37.16\00:15:38.29
just a slightly chilly day.
00:15:38.30\00:15:41.44
I decided to take the
family from the Northern Suburbs
00:15:41.45\00:15:45.91
cutting this
across toward the coast
00:15:45.92\00:15:48.12
either beach
where we used to swim.
00:15:48.13\00:15:50.10
And there is lot of
empty land even though
00:15:50.11\00:15:52.02
its closer to the city
between there so we were
00:15:52.03\00:15:54.13
basically driving
through the woodlands
00:15:54.14\00:15:56.31
and then I saw on the
top of the tallest hill
00:15:56.32\00:15:59.27
over looking the
coast something that brought
00:15:59.28\00:16:01.41
me back to childhood memories,
00:16:01.42\00:16:02.71
it look like the Taj Mahal.
00:16:02.72\00:16:05.11
Most of our viewers,
I'm sure know the classic
00:16:05.12\00:16:07.01
shape of the Taj Mahal.
00:16:07.02\00:16:08.84
Same shape, same
white marble look alike,
00:16:08.85\00:16:12.41
wasn't made out of
marble and we pulled in
00:16:12.42\00:16:14.73
and we spend an interesting hour
00:16:14.74\00:16:16.38
or so looking
through the temple of one
00:16:16.39\00:16:19.89
of the better
term of Baha'i Faith.
00:16:19.90\00:16:24.06
Have you heard
much of that Baha'i's.
00:16:24.07\00:16:25.91
Well, I did little reading
on the Baha'i Faith once.
00:16:25.92\00:16:29.21
I was pastoring in
the city where a Baha'i
00:16:29.22\00:16:33.26
House of Worship was very closed
00:16:33.27\00:16:35.77
to the
residence, my residence so.
00:16:35.78\00:16:38.16
I had a chance to
read about, you know,
00:16:38.17\00:16:40.20
this belief of
bringing all faiths together.
00:16:40.21\00:16:42.66
Well, that's one
element of it, yes.
00:16:42.67\00:16:44.06
It's a spin off
from Islamic culture
00:16:44.07\00:16:47.12
and I knew it
quite a bit about them.
00:16:47.13\00:16:50.21
And I as the child I
have gone to this center.
00:16:50.22\00:16:53.77
But, I really couldn't
say I was knowledgeable
00:16:53.78\00:16:55.68
at that point,
but I remembered it.
00:16:55.69\00:16:58.10
I went and
studied, well actually read
00:16:58.11\00:17:00.01
the materials while
we were there that day
00:17:00.02\00:17:01.64
and something
struck me, that the,
00:17:01.65\00:17:04.53
I forget the man's full name,
00:17:04.54\00:17:05.96
but he is known as the Bob,
00:17:05.97\00:17:07.07
the fellow in around
that came up with the
00:17:07.08\00:17:10.50
concept of Baha'i Faith.
00:17:10.51\00:17:13.43
He came up in the
mid 1800s and that sort
00:17:13.44\00:17:16.36
of rang a sudden bell with me,
00:17:16.37\00:17:17.80
you know the Jehovah's
witnesses, the Mormons,
00:17:17.81\00:17:21.78
the Christian scientists,
00:17:21.79\00:17:24.30
who else about the spiritualism
00:17:24.31\00:17:27.87
Seventh-day Adventists.
00:17:27.88\00:17:29.72
Let me date it
100s a lot of beliefs
00:17:29.73\00:17:32.48
and sectarian views leveled up,
00:17:32.49\00:17:36.04
there was something going on.
00:17:36.05\00:17:37.33
And in the Islamic
world this leader rose up
00:17:37.34\00:17:41.30
and he believed that he
was the Messiah in Christian
00:17:41.31\00:17:44.58
terminology or Juda,
I guess Old Testament
00:17:44.59\00:17:47.54
Judaistic terminology.
00:17:47.55\00:17:49.27
But in the
Islamic context he was the
00:17:49.28\00:17:56.36
promised one, the
Makti, which of course as Jesus
00:17:56.37\00:18:03.57
claims with the
Jewess rather shocking claim
00:18:03.58\00:18:06.26
to make in Muslim community
you better really be or
00:18:06.27\00:18:10.05
else you are
going to called heretic
00:18:10.06\00:18:11.34
and that in a nutshell
explains why the Baha'i today
00:18:11.35\00:18:15.34
are persecuted often
viciously in Islamic world.
00:18:15.35\00:18:20.39
In Iran in recent
years, hundreds of thousands
00:18:20.40\00:18:24.79
have been killed
and in other countries
00:18:24.80\00:18:28.26
they are ostracized
and openly persecuted.
00:18:28.27\00:18:31.55
So this mean to
connection are you saying that
00:18:31.56\00:18:34.02
because of the identification
with messianic figure,
00:18:34.03\00:18:37.48
that puts that give creates
00:18:37.49\00:18:40.77
in strange
relationship with Islam.
00:18:40.78\00:18:42.94
What it does with Islam.
00:18:42.95\00:18:44.20
First of all there is
universal aspect to it,
00:18:44.21\00:18:47.24
that you identified
and Islam is the one true
00:18:47.25\00:18:49.38
religion, so they
broadened it from Islam
00:18:49.39\00:18:52.02
they arrives from
Islam and he is now
00:18:52.03\00:18:54.31
the Messiah figure, so
they are heretics to Islam.
00:18:54.32\00:18:58.08
They have left Islam
turn their back on that faith,
00:18:58.09\00:19:00.73
creating a new
faith view that other
00:19:00.74\00:19:03.48
non-Muslims find attractive,
00:19:03.49\00:19:05.48
because it has
universal sort of an appeal to.
00:19:05.49\00:19:08.69
It's a new age type
appealed to people just,
00:19:08.70\00:19:13.24
so they love each
other and look to one eternal
00:19:13.25\00:19:16.82
deity, doesn't
really identifying
00:19:16.83\00:19:18.60
as the Old Testament God.
00:19:18.61\00:19:20.61
But all intensive
purposes it's a very
00:19:20.62\00:19:22.53
benign non-specific faith,
00:19:22.54\00:19:27.43
but in the Islamic
world is seen us directly
00:19:27.44\00:19:29.87
heretical persecuted,
persecuted viciously.
00:19:29.88\00:19:34.31
I mentioned on this
program before that in
00:19:34.32\00:19:38.61
at the World Conference
we had in South Africa.
00:19:38.62\00:19:41.50
We had a leading figure
from Iranian Government,
00:19:41.51\00:19:45.17
he was invited as a
president few years back
00:19:45.18\00:19:48.79
and he got up
when he was giving his
00:19:48.80\00:19:51.07
presentation
someone asked him about
00:19:51.08\00:19:52.53
persecution of the
Baha'i's and we thought
00:19:52.54\00:19:55.67
he would give
some charitable reply.
00:19:55.68\00:19:57.58
And he says oh no,
he says they deserve
00:19:57.59\00:19:59.82
what they got, because
they back the wrong regime,
00:19:59.83\00:20:02.82
phenomenal view.
00:20:02.83\00:20:04.38
So the Baha'i's
are persecuted group.
00:20:04.39\00:20:08.42
And so we need to
recognize and I'm saying
00:20:08.43\00:20:11.70
this for purpose,
because when we talk
00:20:11.71\00:20:13.22
about the war on terror,
and the classic civilizations
00:20:13.23\00:20:19.89
on the East and the West
00:20:19.90\00:20:21.12
and Islamic and Christianity.
00:20:21.13\00:20:22.26
We forget that there
are groups on the fringes
00:20:22.27\00:20:25.49
of both Christianity
and Islam who are persecuted
00:20:25.50\00:20:29.44
by one or both of the factions.
00:20:29.45\00:20:32.22
When we discover
this type of persecution
00:20:32.23\00:20:36.35
in your research has
it been primarily because
00:20:36.36\00:20:38.40
of simple
religious differences or
00:20:38.41\00:20:41.37
adaptations of
religious beliefs or there is
00:20:41.38\00:20:44.88
something more to it that...
00:20:44.89\00:20:46.15
Well, with the
Baha'i's there its absolutely
00:20:46.16\00:20:48.85
because they are
seen as heretical set,
00:20:48.86\00:20:52.13
that they have
denied the Prophet,
00:20:52.14\00:20:55.25
see in essence by saying that
00:20:55.26\00:20:58.68
he is the Messiah figure.
00:20:58.69\00:21:03.28
It diminishes the
prominence of Mohammad.
00:21:03.29\00:21:05.83
Yeah he is in essence moved
into role of Mohammad. Okay.
00:21:05.84\00:21:09.69
So that's absolutely
heretical and of course
00:21:09.70\00:21:13.22
in the realm of religious ideas,
00:21:13.23\00:21:15.09
we have to hold someone's right
00:21:15.10\00:21:16.56
to believe that or
anything else. Right.
00:21:16.57\00:21:18.46
But too many
religions and Islam is not
00:21:18.47\00:21:21.11
the only one,
Christianity has its,
00:21:21.12\00:21:22.81
has and still a
share will condemn,
00:21:22.82\00:21:26.50
ostracize and even
overtly persecute groups
00:21:26.51\00:21:29.23
for having different viewpoints.
00:21:29.24\00:21:31.19
Now let me get on
to something that some
00:21:31.20\00:21:34.31
Seventh-day
Adventists might misunderstand.
00:21:34.32\00:21:36.39
When we support
everybody's right
00:21:36.40\00:21:38.32
to believe whatever
their conscience draws them
00:21:38.33\00:21:42.37
too, that doesn't
mean that we should
00:21:42.38\00:21:44.37
automatically
encourage or support within
00:21:44.38\00:21:48.60
a church group, any
dissident group that
00:21:48.61\00:21:51.34
want to thumb
their nose at what,
00:21:51.35\00:21:53.71
by with the baptism, you know,
00:21:53.72\00:21:57.60
membership or calling
00:21:57.61\00:21:58.80
whatever the
group have agreed to.
00:21:58.81\00:22:00.82
It's a legitimate
right of any religious group
00:22:00.83\00:22:03.63
to hold their
viewpoint and if someone departs
00:22:03.64\00:22:06.61
from that, well, you
know, sorry, you know,
00:22:06.62\00:22:09.32
one of us any
more, that's not the same
00:22:09.33\00:22:11.33
as religious persecution.
00:22:11.34\00:22:13.85
So how do we define religious
persecution in his context?
00:22:13.86\00:22:17.15
Well, would be depriving people
00:22:17.16\00:22:19.69
of their rights of free thought.
00:22:19.70\00:22:21.74
We are depriving
people of their right to human
00:22:21.75\00:22:26.42
interchange,
depriving them of their living,
00:22:26.43\00:22:28.85
penalizing them
of course usually
00:22:28.86\00:22:30.63
government do this
are the property or
00:22:30.64\00:22:34.35
employment that sort of things.
00:22:34.36\00:22:36.63
But just to say that
you we don't agree with you
00:22:36.64\00:22:39.09
that you are
holding this viewpoint,
00:22:39.10\00:22:41.70
you know, you are not
one of us anymore that's
00:22:41.71\00:22:44.99
not in itself
persecution they comes
00:22:45.00\00:22:47.90
parting of the way, you know,
00:22:47.91\00:22:49.20
the Bible says so and so,
00:22:49.21\00:22:50.38
he is no longer with us,
he has departed, you know.
00:22:50.39\00:22:53.62
And we need to be
careful the persecution
00:22:53.63\00:22:55.94
is not just difference
of opinion and the world
00:22:55.95\00:22:59.67
is in the process, I
think that United Nations
00:22:59.68\00:23:01.95
Nations level and down
into the national level
00:23:01.96\00:23:03.63
of thinking it can
solve the religious
00:23:03.64\00:23:07.25
differences by
edicts against criticizing
00:23:07.26\00:23:11.52
another religion or
proclaiming your belief
00:23:11.53\00:23:14.51
that differs from another or you
00:23:14.52\00:23:17.64
if you say that you
believe something and they hold
00:23:17.65\00:23:19.72
another deity and they can say,
00:23:19.73\00:23:21.22
well this is
defamation of my religion,
00:23:21.23\00:23:24.32
that those things
shouldn't be allowed,
00:23:24.33\00:23:25.73
because they can be,
definitely be persecution.
00:23:25.74\00:23:29.49
But there are times
when belief systems create
00:23:29.50\00:23:32.73
difference in the
person no longer has anything
00:23:32.74\00:23:35.69
in common with that
group, that's their right.
00:23:35.70\00:23:38.76
And if that group
says that you can't remain
00:23:38.77\00:23:41.27
a callithumpian to make up
00:23:41.28\00:23:44.15
a term believing
that, then you move on.
00:23:44.16\00:23:46.66
We often here about persecution,
00:23:46.67\00:23:48.67
religious
persecution and let's use
00:23:48.68\00:23:51.79
the context of
apposing religious groups
00:23:51.80\00:23:55.68
or faiths or orders between
00:23:55.69\00:23:57.84
Christianity and
Islam for example.
00:23:57.85\00:24:00.03
But what does it look like
00:24:00.04\00:24:01.24
when we see within Christianity?
00:24:01.25\00:24:03.65
Well it can look
very messy and nasty,
00:24:03.66\00:24:05.32
it can be very prejudice,
00:24:05.33\00:24:07.19
looking as it with down south,
00:24:07.20\00:24:10.78
you know there were
cases of people being
00:24:10.79\00:24:15.09
literally driven out
of their homes because
00:24:15.10\00:24:16.92
they share different
view going further back.
00:24:16.93\00:24:20.01
But I think was
Christian persecution.
00:24:20.02\00:24:23.21
The whole social
structure of the south
00:24:23.22\00:24:25.47
was justified by
theological religious
00:24:25.48\00:24:31.07
construct and used then
as a justification to go
00:24:31.08\00:24:36.49
out and literally harass people,
00:24:36.50\00:24:39.26
order their lives,
tell them where they can do,
00:24:39.27\00:24:41.26
what they can do and
so on, that's persecution.
00:24:41.27\00:24:44.44
Or take it
further field South Africa
00:24:44.45\00:24:46.92
in the apartheid idea
00:24:46.93\00:24:48.34
that was all done
on doctrinal basis.
00:24:48.35\00:24:51.12
People forget it now,
but there was a doctrine
00:24:51.13\00:24:53.60
in a Dutch Reform
Church that justified
00:24:53.61\00:24:56.42
the mistreatment of
many within that society,
00:24:56.43\00:24:59.51
that's religious
persecution in my view.
00:24:59.52\00:25:01.42
Passing is a political turmoil.
00:25:01.43\00:25:04.46
So it starts with a
biblical underpinning
00:25:04.47\00:25:07.05
or theological underpinning.
00:25:07.06\00:25:08.99
Absolutely, very often.
00:25:09.00\00:25:09.97
And moves with moves forward
00:25:09.98\00:25:11.41
with the political phase.
00:25:11.42\00:25:12.62
The biggest issue
through history usually
00:25:12.63\00:25:15.81
have a grand
philosophy behind them.
00:25:15.82\00:25:18.50
It's not enough
for some, you know,
00:25:18.51\00:25:20.87
or do they come up
and say I believe this
00:25:20.88\00:25:22.75
or whatever as they do.
00:25:22.76\00:25:24.56
But usually it
appeals to some great scheme
00:25:24.57\00:25:26.66
and the greatest
schemes of the God's if heaven
00:25:26.67\00:25:30.28
is mandated this,
this is the view, you know,
00:25:30.29\00:25:33.20
the divine book
say such and such,
00:25:33.21\00:25:35.37
that can be used
to justify the most
00:25:35.38\00:25:37.70
egregious mistreatment
of fellowmen or the most
00:25:37.71\00:25:41.45
bizarre
constructive society to restrict
00:25:41.46\00:25:44.47
people who believe differently.
00:25:44.48\00:25:45.91
So how do we get there?
00:25:45.92\00:25:48.62
Well I think the way
to get there at least
00:25:48.63\00:25:51.23
to inoculate
ourselves against is to do
00:25:51.24\00:25:53.65
what is even
with Liberty Magazine
00:25:53.66\00:25:55.75
was sometimes accused of.
00:25:55.76\00:25:56.87
Encourage what can
be accused of is being
00:25:56.88\00:25:59.95
sort of a liberal mindset.
00:25:59.96\00:26:02.42
You and I are
Seventh-day Adventists.
00:26:02.43\00:26:04.10
We believe this, I
mean this is not just sort
00:26:04.11\00:26:06.99
of give it, take it
or leave it type belief,
00:26:07.00\00:26:10.21
you know, I
believe its worthy dying
00:26:10.22\00:26:12.10
for the faith that
I see in the Bible.
00:26:12.11\00:26:13.97
But as far as religious
liberty I have to allow
00:26:13.98\00:26:17.27
people to believe anything.
00:26:17.28\00:26:19.33
As I told one
religious leader, you know,
00:26:19.34\00:26:22.34
your religion can
be pure out to me,
00:26:22.35\00:26:24.24
it can be the
craziest sort of nonsense,
00:26:24.25\00:26:26.93
that's your
right to believe that.
00:26:26.94\00:26:28.68
And I should be
prepared if you are challenged
00:26:28.69\00:26:31.31
in that to go to the very ends
00:26:31.32\00:26:34.04
and defend it with
my life if necessary.
00:26:34.05\00:26:36.04
Oh, that's challenging statement
00:26:36.05\00:26:37.98
and we are all
challenged by that.
00:26:37.99\00:26:39.57
And how we live it,
it has to be according
00:26:39.58\00:26:42.72
to the word of God and
our example, Jesus Christ.
00:26:42.73\00:26:45.64
It used to be said
that dress makes the man,
00:26:47.70\00:26:51.43
I guess you can
say the women also.
00:26:51.44\00:26:53.39
But there is no
question that very often
00:26:53.40\00:26:56.21
we define ourselves
and others categorize us
00:26:56.22\00:26:59.55
by what we wear.
00:26:59.56\00:27:00.86
I know at the General
Conference where I work
00:27:00.87\00:27:03.82
for the North American division
00:27:03.83\00:27:05.12
of the Seventh-day
Adventist church this our world
00:27:05.13\00:27:07.41
headquarters, dress
has been important although
00:27:07.42\00:27:10.73
of late they have adopted
00:27:10.74\00:27:11.89
the standard of business casual.
00:27:11.90\00:27:14.91
People define that differently,
00:27:14.92\00:27:16.06
but I think you can
usually tell a minister
00:27:16.07\00:27:18.97
by the way he dresses.
00:27:18.98\00:27:20.67
I know when two men
come to the door dressed
00:27:20.68\00:27:24.02
in severe dark business suits,
00:27:24.03\00:27:26.28
I know I'm in for Bible study.
00:27:26.29\00:27:29.52
There is no question
that in the world today
00:27:29.53\00:27:31.56
is clash of
religious civilizations.
00:27:31.57\00:27:34.53
The issue of religious
dress has become contentious.
00:27:34.54\00:27:38.43
There is no
question, but it's legitimate
00:27:38.44\00:27:40.86
for people to define
themselves by their dress.
00:27:40.87\00:27:42.99
But what is more important to me
00:27:43.00\00:27:45.44
and I think we should
not loose sight of it is
00:27:45.45\00:27:47.89
the witness, the
personal testimony,
00:27:47.90\00:27:50.94
the faith stands that's
exemplified by the life,
00:27:50.95\00:27:54.66
not just that we
have a certain head dress
00:27:54.67\00:27:58.29
that we wear a
certain suit, but that we ask
00:27:58.30\00:28:01.28
something, we
stand for something.
00:28:01.29\00:28:04.23
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:04.24\00:28:06.61