Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
that brings you news, views,
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and discussion on
religious liberty events
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in the United States
and around the World.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And on this program I
have a very special guest,
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Pastor Samuel Thomas.
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You've had many jobs
including being Pastor
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of the Church near
3ABN's Headquarters.
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Indeed. Here in
West Frankfort, Illinois.
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I want to talk to you
today about magazines.
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And of course you
are gonna light up
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like a Christmas
tree because, you know,
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I edit Liberty
Magazine but at the moment
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you have a very
special responsibility
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for another magazine.
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That's correct.
"Message Magazine."
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That's correct. As
director of marketing
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it's been my
pleasure to promote a magazine
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that upholds values
and promotes current issues
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for people within
our metropolitan centers.
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Good. Now, you
know, I freely say
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one of the
reasons that I am happy
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to have you on the program,
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not just that I know
you and I know your sister
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who used to work
with Liberty Magazine.
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But over the years I have
looked at Message Magazine
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and appreciated what's there.
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And I have
noticed about message,
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but I have also noticed about
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some of our other Church papers
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as well as many other
Church related publications.
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They cannot avoid
Religious Liberty stories
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from time to time.
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And I see some
really great stories
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in Message Magazine,
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commenting on
some of the real big
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Church-State
issues of the times.
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I think many
people-- our membership,
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our viewers probably don't grasp
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our Religious Liberty
Issues are all around us.
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Absolutely. And
they are embedded
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in many
different layers of life.
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Sometimes we want to relegate it
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to just a work
place, you know, issue.
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But there are lot of
things that have far reaching
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applications on
what we do and ultimately
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that affect our liberty.
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Well, if you
really think about it
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then almost everything
that Church is concerned
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would impacts with
society. Certainly.
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I mean, that's
the Gospel commission.
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Taking the Gospel to the world
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but the world has its own
rulership, its own system,
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and how the Church
impacts that is the full story
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of Church-State
Religious Liberty discussion.
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Well, when you
know the challenge
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Lincoln really comes
that so much of religion today
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has taken on the
look of the State,
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and it's something that
Jesus drew a clear line out,
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you know, between
Caesar and obedience to God.
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Remnant of Caesar.
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Exactly. And then
even before pilot,
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you know, and his accusers,
he gives his true distinction.
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You know, my
kingdom is not of this world
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or else my servants would fight.
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So because of that many
times the lines are blurred
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and it's our responsibility
to bring about a clear
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distinction on
what's really involved
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in Religious
Liberty issues Absolutely.
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I've had some good
discussions over the years
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with a few of the
editors of Message Magazine
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and I found them all
to be very conversant
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in the target audience.
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And maybe you can speak to them,
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Message Magazine is designed
to have a general appeal
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but its target audience
is the African-American,
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Black community right?
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That's correct. That's correct.
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And one of the reasons
why is because we realize
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that the urban
dwellers have different mindset
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and as a result of that
they are many influences
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and dynamics that
come to bear on their,
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on their view of the World,
their view of their community,
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and their view of American
values to use that cliché.
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We know that
Islam has a strong hold
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within our correctional
institutions of United States.
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And as a result of that,
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we recognize that
Christianity is viewed
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through very jaded lenses.
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It's not accepted the same way.
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So we have to
position Message in a way
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that people are
willing to embrace it before
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they can get past the initial
distinction of Christianity.
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They have to see common
values and common themes
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that resonate with
them in the community.
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And I think you
put the finger better
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than one of the previous
editors did when I discussed,
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you've put your finger
on why Message Magazine
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has an application beyond just
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an African-American
Black Community?
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It speaks more to
communities in perhaps
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a city environment
than something like
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Signs of the Times,
which is very broad-based.
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This is a missionary magazine,
another missionary magazine
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on the
Seventh-day Adventist Church.
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I see them as very complementary
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but in some ways
little overlapping.
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Well, indeed. And
in truth we compliment
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Liberty Magazine
as well. Thank you.
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Yes. You are leading me....
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Yes, well, I have to do
that. Liberty Magazine...
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Yeah, you know,
where I am coming from,
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because I am not
going to leave that
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that just hanging
up there. Exactly.
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Well, Liberty Magazine
is for thought leaders.
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And Message Magazine is
for the general populous.
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One of the
distinctions that makes Message
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extremely
effective is that addressing
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metropolitan concerns, and
always I'm using metropolitan
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and not urban because
when people hear urban
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they generally think
Black, you know, metropolitan...
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Or in a city, which is in a...
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Or in a city, which is
not, you know, quite accurate.
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Well, we've had a
couple of opportunities,
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in fact three,
where we have distributed
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large volumes of
Message Magazine.
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One of things we identified
in those distribution processes
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was that people were
actively engaged by Message
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whether they were
Black, Caucasian, Hispanic,
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and I have noticed
that even in my travels
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just giving a gift
at the terminal and,
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you know, that kind of thing.
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So I have-it's been,
it's been assuring to me
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that issues are what
people are looking for
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and if we resonate
with issues of the community
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and especially of cities,
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you know, metropolitan centers
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which are again distinctly
different from rural society,
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then people have
an interest peaked
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and then we have
these multiple ways
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of communicating truth
which people have a certain
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degree of ambiguity about today.
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Yeah, that's true.
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You know, it used
to be said globally
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that we were in a
post-Christian era,
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which is true but I
think that's little misleading.
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People think a lot
about religion now,
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but they don't think
about it in the same ways.
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They don't. They
have got a very secular,
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non-doctrinaire
way of looking in it,
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and I think Message,
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Signs of the Times is
the other Outreach Magazine
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of the Church and even
Liberty to its select audience
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you can present
religion in a very contemporary,
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approachable way,
and one the best ways
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is to link at the current events
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and there are some of the
most pivotal current events
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of Church-State
issues, aren't they?
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Well, they are. It's
certainly since 9/11.
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Since 9/11 just
almost everything to do
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with the war on
terrorism, the security state
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and that has
religious implication.
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Well, let me give a
compliment to Liberty.
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I've read Liberty
and one of the things
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that capture my
attention is the fact that
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it prompts a larger discussion.
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And the larger discussion for me
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that I see as a ministry
is the issue of creation.
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Because if you
don't ascribe to God being
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our father and our creator,
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then a lot of
the subsequent issues
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that we are facing
today really become
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a spin off, a natural spin off.
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They are more of
a discussion point
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if people don't
believe that God created us,
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if we believe that we have all,
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we don't have the
same view of values,
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of marriage, of liberty,
of the right of freedom,
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you know, freedom of conscience.
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We don't have those dynamics.
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You bring up
something in private.
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I would love to talk about,
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because it's
sort of a prime course
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to the argument or first course.
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And I think many
people, yes, have lost the track
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of the argument in favor of God.
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Why there is a God?
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In Liberty
Magazine I can't really
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get on that
purely doctrinal level.
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We are defending the
rights of all people to believe
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or not believe
whatever they want.
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But I am always referring
to a cosmological view.
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And I do not believe in
every society in all times.
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People have had an explanation
as to why we are here?
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How we came about?
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It's very
important to emphasize that
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and to-in case the United States
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to see that's intact.
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Because then if you are
talking about doctorial issues
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or Church-State separation,
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if they don't
have this bedrock view
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of how they relate to the God's
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or to the Universe
strait, the rest of this is just
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sort of a
deckchairs on the Titanic.
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Well, I think to
that's our challenge,
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communicating the truth of
God's word in relevant terms
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without losing or modularizing
the significance of God
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and our relationship to
Him because Christ comes
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as a result of
God having created us
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and our having an
estrangement with God.
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Absolutely.
Anyhow, Liberty Magazine
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I think has some common threads.
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I observe with Message Magazine,
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but very different target
audience and that's obvious.
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As you promote Message and
reach out to the community,
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do you sense that
there is a real hungering
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for an explanation of some
of these Church-State Issues
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or not just Church-State,
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but issues of
conscience relating to society?
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They are. They are,
because when we read
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the comments that we
receive from Message Magazine,
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the internet, or
communication we receive emails,
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it's evident that
people have a larger view.
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They do have a world view.
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They do have
opinions about government
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and its involvement, and
how far they reach should go.
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These dynamics do not
always come to the surface
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and the thing that's
different between cultures is,
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for instance in Black Culture,
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we verbalized a great deal more,
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what our feelings are and
then we walk away from it,
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whereas in Caucasian
culture we may see more writing,
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extensive blogs,
and that kind of things.
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Yeah, there're some
things that are not to be said.
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Yes, exactly! And
driving, and come up.
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Yeah , yeah, yeah exactly.
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Well, you get these
new answers that come
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and as I travel
around we recognized that
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there is this unfolding
that once you put the discussion
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on the table then people
will began to discuss it.
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They will begin to
seek to fair it out
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what's really
involved in the core issues.
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And they may not
know and the magazine
00:10:38.55\00:10:41.08
gives them a direction,
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it gives them sense of presence
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and purpose and
that's important.
00:10:43.60\00:10:45.38
Now let me ask you a
serious leading question
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that I want to
pursue even after the break.
00:10:49.55\00:10:53.22
Religious
Freedom Issues of course
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have a historic
basis and our church,
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the Seventh-day Adventist Church
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is always referring
to the reaffirmation.
00:11:00.11\00:11:03.57
Of course,
Christian story goes way back
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to Christ
Himself and by extension
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it's the whole
story of God's dealing
00:11:08.83\00:11:10.36
with man in the Bible.
00:11:10.37\00:11:13.17
But in a very real way
the United States seems to me,
00:11:13.18\00:11:18.26
you can't
separate religious freedom
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for the developing
views of freedom in general.
00:11:20.71\00:11:24.10
And it strikes me.
It always struck me.
00:11:24.11\00:11:27.01
The black community
in the United States
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must have a little
different take on freedom
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in general and
religious freedom in particular.
00:11:33.50\00:11:36.46
And that is true, that is true.
00:11:36.47\00:11:38.78
You will find
within the black community
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whether it's African-American
or Caribbean black
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or Korean black, African black.
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There is a
commonality of tolerance.
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They are variables to that.
00:11:49.88\00:11:51.59
So I don't want
anyone viewing to think
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that this is a
wholesale rule of thumb,
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because you can find tribalism.
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You can find
geographic distinctions
00:11:57.83\00:12:01.04
in that kind of thing.
00:12:01.05\00:12:02.02
But overall
there is a high degree
00:12:02.03\00:12:04.62
of tolerance and acceptance.
00:12:04.63\00:12:07.90
There is the, the
willingness to embrace people
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in their distinction
which is why unfortunately
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we see this historical tolerance
00:12:13.66\00:12:17.20
within the Black
Church for homosexuality
00:12:17.21\00:12:20.45
and the music arena
and that kind of thing,
00:12:20.46\00:12:23.68
because there is and
its, you know, they turn away
00:12:23.69\00:12:27.90
from the
distinctions of gay-straight.
00:12:27.91\00:12:31.04
We need to talk a
little bit more about,
00:12:31.05\00:12:32.64
but after the break.
Let's take a break now.
00:12:32.65\00:12:35.29
We will be right back
to continue this discussion
00:12:35.30\00:12:37.57
with Pastor Samuel Thomas,
representing Message Magazine.
00:12:37.58\00:12:42.57
We are talking
about Religious Liberty
00:12:42.58\00:12:44.18
with me the Editor
of Liberty Magazine.
00:12:44.19\00:12:45.98
We will be right back.
00:12:45.99\00:12:47.15
One-hundred years, a
long time to do anything
00:12:56.73\00:13:00.61
much less publish a magazine.
00:13:00.62\00:13:02.44
But this year Liberty,
the Seventh-day Adventist
00:13:02.45\00:13:05.67
voice of religious freedom,
celebrates one hundred years
00:13:05.68\00:13:08.96
of doing what it does
best-- collecting, analyzing,
00:13:08.97\00:13:12.44
and reporting the ebb and flow
00:13:12.45\00:13:14.36
of religious
expression around the world.
00:13:14.37\00:13:16.92
Issue after
issue, Liberty has taken
00:13:16.93\00:13:19.72
on the tough assignments,
tracking down threats
00:13:19.73\00:13:22.23
to religious freedom
and exposing the work
00:13:22.24\00:13:24.10
of the devil in
every corner of the globe.
00:13:24.11\00:13:26.70
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:26.71\00:13:29.67
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom issues
00:13:29.68\00:13:32.41
sequestered within
the Church community
00:13:32.42\00:13:34.08
itself have been
clearly and honestly exposed.
00:13:34.09\00:13:37.82
Liberty exists for one
purpose to help God's people
00:13:37.83\00:13:41.31
maintain that all important
00:13:41.32\00:13:43.16
separation of Church and State,
00:13:43.17\00:13:45.15
while recognizing the dangers
inherent in such a struggle.
00:13:45.16\00:13:49.08
During the past
century, Liberty has experienced
00:13:49.09\00:13:51.57
challenges of its own,
but it remains on the job.
00:13:51.58\00:13:55.24
Thanks to the
inspired leadership
00:13:55.25\00:13:56.97
of a long line of
dedicated Adventist Editors,
00:13:56.98\00:13:59.69
three of whom represent
almost half of the publications
00:13:59.70\00:14:02.10
existence and the foresight
00:14:02.11\00:14:04.01
of a little
woman from New England.
00:14:04.02\00:14:06.18
One hundred years of struggle,
00:14:06.19\00:14:08.51
one hundred years of victories,
00:14:08.52\00:14:10.73
religious freedom isn't
just about political machines
00:14:10.74\00:14:13.74
and cultural prejudices.
00:14:13.75\00:14:15.44
It's about people
fighting for the right
00:14:15.45\00:14:18.36
to serve the God
they love as their hearts
00:14:18.37\00:14:21.24
and the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:21.25\00:14:23.60
Thanks to the
prayers and generous support
00:14:23.61\00:14:25.71
of Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere.
00:14:25.72\00:14:28.14
Liberty will continue
to accomplish its work
00:14:28.15\00:14:30.39
of providing timely information,
00:14:30.40\00:14:32.24
spirit filled inspiration,
and heaven sent encouragement
00:14:32.25\00:14:35.44
to all who long to
live and work in a world
00:14:35.45\00:14:39.48
bound together
by the God ordained
00:14:39.49\00:14:41.61
bonds of religious freedom.
00:14:41.62\00:14:44.82
Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:14:54.67\00:14:56.74
Before the break, I was talking
00:14:56.75\00:14:58.15
with guest Elder Sam Thomas.
00:14:58.16\00:15:02.46
Talking about something that
you were vexing eloquent on,
00:15:02.47\00:15:07.15
the connection
between Religious Liberty
00:15:07.16\00:15:09.06
and attitudes
toward religious freedom
00:15:09.07\00:15:11.07
and the Black
experience in the United States.
00:15:11.08\00:15:14.50
Well, I think one
of the reasons why
00:15:14.51\00:15:16.99
other culture
groups from a distance
00:15:17.00\00:15:19.25
peer into
African-American Community
00:15:19.26\00:15:21.97
or to the community of color.
00:15:21.98\00:15:24.76
I prefer that
because African-Americans
00:15:24.77\00:15:26.95
and Caribbean
Blacks and African Blacks
00:15:26.96\00:15:29.50
see themselves very
distinctly, different.
00:15:29.51\00:15:32.19
But the difficulty when
you look from the outside
00:15:32.20\00:15:34.96
is that you will see
this willingness to accept
00:15:34.97\00:15:39.08
certain or have a
tolerance, let's use that term,
00:15:39.09\00:15:43.69
they have a
tolerance for homosexuals
00:15:43.70\00:15:47.39
and is even seen in a Church.
00:15:47.40\00:15:50.26
Ministers can
make certain decisions
00:15:50.27\00:15:53.53
that are contrary
even to scripture.
00:15:53.54\00:15:55.79
And there is an
acceptance level.
00:15:55.80\00:15:57.85
You are giving a reason for
something that shouldn't be.
00:15:57.86\00:16:00.08
That's correct, and when I am...
00:16:00.09\00:16:01.70
And you're not
suggesting that's...
00:16:01.71\00:16:03.32
That's is the problem.
Yeah, it's inappropriate.
00:16:03.33\00:16:05.82
Yeah, that's correct. But--
00:16:05.83\00:16:06.81
That comes because
there are more hesitant
00:16:06.82\00:16:09.93
to condemn someone,
00:16:09.94\00:16:11.49
recognizing they
have been through.
00:16:11.50\00:16:12.93
Exactly, and see that's the core
00:16:12.94\00:16:16.37
that unless you are able
to step out and say okay,
00:16:16.38\00:16:19.16
what has this
person been through?
00:16:19.17\00:16:20.68
What is his
cultural group experience?
00:16:20.69\00:16:22.71
That makes them more tolerant.
00:16:22.72\00:16:24.52
And we haven't
hand a thousand years
00:16:24.53\00:16:26.78
since some of these events.
00:16:26.79\00:16:27.76
We only have hundreds of years,
00:16:27.77\00:16:28.97
and the stories
continue to transfer
00:16:28.98\00:16:31.57
from generation to
generation. So it's ever fresh.
00:16:31.58\00:16:34.02
One of the
challenges that we have to own
00:16:34.03\00:16:37.09
on our side is that, some
of these are abbreviations
00:16:37.10\00:16:41.10
of scripture are
not tolerable by God.
00:16:41.11\00:16:47.20
So even though we
might say that we permit
00:16:47.21\00:16:51.07
or there is a
liberty for this expression,
00:16:51.08\00:16:54.10
we must still have
that distinction that,
00:16:54.11\00:16:57.35
yes I can't condemn
you because this is sin.
00:16:57.36\00:17:00.44
On the other hand
God has a standard.
00:17:00.45\00:17:02.22
He has a expectation.
00:17:02.23\00:17:03.59
Well, you know,
this is the trick.
00:17:03.60\00:17:05.36
Of course the
whole Christian society
00:17:05.37\00:17:07.62
in the United States is
facing--and other countries.
00:17:07.63\00:17:10.94
But I see it
here in this country
00:17:10.95\00:17:12.87
with the emerging
gay rights community.
00:17:12.88\00:17:18.86
We can't accept. We
shouldn't Biblically accept
00:17:18.87\00:17:21.64
what they are doing,
but how do you condemn
00:17:21.65\00:17:23.81
the sin and accept the sinner.
00:17:23.82\00:17:25.58
Yes, that's correct.
00:17:25.59\00:17:26.56
And I don't
think too many people
00:17:26.57\00:17:27.54
of Biblically feels that.
00:17:27.55\00:17:30.00
No, it's... More
difficult choice.
00:17:30.01\00:17:31.93
It is, it is.
00:17:31.94\00:17:33.54
But as far as the experiences
00:17:33.55\00:17:35.20
of the Black African
American communities,
00:17:35.21\00:17:38.70
please tell me the
terminology has changed
00:17:38.71\00:17:40.59
even in the time I
have lived in United States,
00:17:40.60\00:17:43.44
that we don't
want to offend people.
00:17:43.45\00:17:44.76
But you're right and
very few people point out
00:17:44.77\00:17:47.39
the distinction
between different communities
00:17:47.40\00:17:49.16
within the non-want
cultures because I have noticed
00:17:49.17\00:17:54.52
a very distinct
mindset from West Indies.
00:17:54.53\00:17:57.58
Correct. And of course,
00:17:57.59\00:18:01.44
we should remember
that there was slavery
00:18:01.45\00:18:03.32
in the West Indies,
but it had a different,
00:18:03.33\00:18:05.54
dynamo and I think it
changed the attitudes.
00:18:05.55\00:18:09.58
But growing up in Australia
where I was brought up,
00:18:09.59\00:18:12.63
you know, I haven't
experienced any of these.
00:18:12.64\00:18:14.98
But I was very
impressed as a young person
00:18:14.99\00:18:17.35
with the Negros Spirituals,
00:18:17.36\00:18:19.44
is that what
they called back then.
00:18:19.45\00:18:20.66
We hardly hear them,
but powerful statements
00:18:20.67\00:18:23.63
of people and
intolerable situation
00:18:23.64\00:18:28.08
who had
discovered with Christianity.
00:18:28.09\00:18:29.98
And they imbued
those Christian songs
00:18:29.99\00:18:32.95
with the sense of
yearning for a religion.
00:18:32.96\00:18:36.10
And then the one that
I preached out recently,
00:18:36.11\00:18:38.17
you know, Go down
Moses, Go down to Egypt land
00:18:38.18\00:18:41.92
and tell all
Pharaoh, let my people go.
00:18:41.93\00:18:44.28
That's right, that's right.
00:18:44.29\00:18:45.26
You know, that's
the Gospel story. It is.
00:18:45.27\00:18:47.33
A release from
the bondage of sin
00:18:47.34\00:18:49.31
and here that they
were drawing that parallel
00:18:49.32\00:18:51.59
with a state that was
not willing to grant them
00:18:51.60\00:18:54.90
the basic human liberties,
but as well as that...
00:18:54.91\00:18:58.98
by definition some
spiritual restriction as well.
00:18:58.99\00:19:02.19
Well, that's the
commonality that exists
00:19:02.20\00:19:05.08
between most
people of color, Okay.
00:19:05.09\00:19:08.03
Oppression. Release.
00:19:08.04\00:19:10.35
That allows us to
experience the gospel
00:19:10.36\00:19:14.09
in a different way.
00:19:14.10\00:19:15.19
For an example, you may tune
00:19:15.20\00:19:17.08
into evangelical
preachers Caucasian.
00:19:17.09\00:19:19.67
In most of the
sermons derive the emphasis
00:19:19.68\00:19:22.10
from New Testament scriptures.
00:19:22.11\00:19:23.89
But when you
listen to Black preachers
00:19:23.90\00:19:25.69
they are still
willing to reach back
00:19:25.70\00:19:27.75
into the Old Testament.
00:19:27.76\00:19:29.32
Or be it not necessarily
the correct application
00:19:29.33\00:19:33.74
or interpretation of
scripture at all times,
00:19:33.75\00:19:35.82
but at the end of the day
00:19:35.83\00:19:37.32
because they see in the Exodus,
00:19:37.33\00:19:38.82
they see in these
various in that overall motive,
00:19:38.83\00:19:42.25
they see that God is working
00:19:42.26\00:19:44.58
in the human experience
to provide deliverance,
00:19:44.59\00:19:47.85
which is why the issues of
Religious Liberty resonates
00:19:47.86\00:19:52.26
so distinctly within
the civil rights movement.
00:19:52.27\00:19:56.95
But unfortunately they
want to get some money.
00:19:56.96\00:20:00.96
And then there
is this belief that
00:20:00.97\00:20:03.07
because people
have rights on the basis
00:20:03.08\00:20:05.35
of color that and race
that we don't need to take
00:20:05.36\00:20:11.21
a different view
of how we come at
00:20:11.22\00:20:14.08
this matter of homosexuality,
00:20:14.09\00:20:16.54
in God's view of homosexuality.
00:20:16.55\00:20:18.45
Oh! Yeah, I would
like to talk about that
00:20:18.46\00:20:19.77
in depth in another program.
00:20:19.78\00:20:21.41
But I want to pursue you this,
00:20:21.42\00:20:22.50
I don't have to characterize it,
00:20:26.80\00:20:28.46
but what we are
talking about that
00:20:28.47\00:20:29.63
the Black
experience in United States
00:20:29.64\00:20:31.86
that they drew
on biblical imagery,
00:20:31.87\00:20:34.74
and the overall self perception
00:20:34.75\00:20:38.87
of the United
States beyond rights,
00:20:38.88\00:20:40.66
characterizes
American exceptionalism,
00:20:40.67\00:20:43.67
and I think the best argument
00:20:43.68\00:20:45.47
against the Globe
American Exceptionalism or is,
00:20:45.48\00:20:51.62
talking about globe,
we have President Bush
00:20:51.63\00:20:53.36
at the time characterize it.
00:20:53.37\00:20:54.59
He said God has Blessed America
00:20:54.60\00:20:56.64
and He couldn't have
blessed more deserving people.
00:20:56.65\00:20:59.10
Now, that's a peril
statement in my view.
00:20:59.11\00:21:02.79
Well, we see, we see...
00:21:02.80\00:21:03.77
No group of human
being is inherently deserving
00:21:03.78\00:21:06.12
of God's favor and
while there are wonderful
00:21:06.13\00:21:09.64
Christian people and always
have been in this country,
00:21:09.65\00:21:12.32
the object lesson that
this was not a divine symbol is,
00:21:12.33\00:21:17.03
is precisely the
experience of slavery
00:21:17.04\00:21:19.52
and the cruel story you have
had that was done away with.
00:21:19.53\00:21:24.34
Well, and also I
think it resonates
00:21:24.35\00:21:26.96
more profoundly with you.
00:21:26.97\00:21:28.05
I mean you are able to capture
00:21:28.06\00:21:30.75
that the sheer
mockery that that's imbedded
00:21:30.76\00:21:33.26
in that concept because
you come from another country.
00:21:33.27\00:21:36.33
But being born in this country
00:21:36.34\00:21:38.55
then as an African-American
I can look at it
00:21:38.56\00:21:40.91
and say it too is mockery,
00:21:40.92\00:21:42.84
because I grow up
in Jim Crow South.
00:21:42.85\00:21:44.80
So you cannot have
this duality of purity,
00:21:44.81\00:21:49.45
holiness, this God
breathe perfect nation,
00:21:49.46\00:21:54.83
perfect nation
and at the same time
00:21:54.84\00:21:57.34
have all of these
abrasions of law and liberty,
00:21:57.35\00:22:01.27
and the pursuit of happiness.
00:22:01.28\00:22:02.45
They just all go together.
00:22:02.46\00:22:03.62
Absolutely, and where I think
00:22:03.63\00:22:05.45
as the genius of
the United States,
00:22:05.46\00:22:07.00
and where God has
worked his way through human
00:22:07.01\00:22:09.02
and demotist and
holding at high ideal
00:22:09.03\00:22:11.61
that it slowly
but surely refined.
00:22:11.62\00:22:15.63
And I came to
United States in 1966
00:22:15.64\00:22:19.37
which is a
horrible dead point probably
00:22:19.38\00:22:22.03
for our viewing
audience, switch off.
00:22:22.04\00:22:25.53
I don't remember that year.
00:22:25.54\00:22:27.37
But I came in '66.
00:22:27.38\00:22:28.77
That was right at the tail end
00:22:28.78\00:22:30.03
of the whole
civil rights movements
00:22:30.04\00:22:31.81
and within over the '68
00:22:31.82\00:22:34.33
I think Martin
Luther King's assassination,
00:22:34.34\00:22:37.14
tumultuous times,
very much impressed me.
00:22:37.15\00:22:41.14
But I revisit
that now as an editor
00:22:41.15\00:22:43.17
of Liberty
Magazine because so often
00:22:43.18\00:22:45.82
when we talk about free exercise
00:22:45.83\00:22:47.21
of religion in United States,
00:22:47.22\00:22:48.36
the point of reference is title
00:22:48.37\00:22:50.59
seven of the Civil
Rights Legislation.
00:22:50.60\00:22:53.01
It says you
can't be discriminated
00:22:53.02\00:22:54.52
against on the basis of
race, sex, religion, and so on.
00:22:54.53\00:22:59.22
That's the bedrock, a defense,
00:22:59.23\00:23:01.54
a practice of faith in
the workplace particularly,
00:23:01.55\00:23:05.64
in some ways not so openly
00:23:05.65\00:23:07.83
even it is the first amendment.
00:23:07.84\00:23:10.12
The first amendment
it's fine high ideal,
00:23:10.13\00:23:12.65
but in the real world
the government worked out
00:23:12.66\00:23:14.50
and legislated on through
the Civil Rights Legislation.
00:23:14.51\00:23:17.81
So you know, again
all liberties can't,
00:23:17.82\00:23:22.66
are gathered
together and Religious Liberty
00:23:22.67\00:23:24.61
we believe is a first
liberty, it's often been said.
00:23:24.62\00:23:27.22
And I would imagine the question
00:23:27.23\00:23:29.08
can be posed at this point,
00:23:29.09\00:23:32.02
is there bad
liberty? You know, it's...
00:23:32.03\00:23:35.24
Well, it's licensed.
Yes. That's another story.
00:23:35.25\00:23:39.28
You know, Paul spoke about that.
00:23:39.29\00:23:41.40
Don't turn your
liberty into license,
00:23:41.41\00:23:42.86
and some countries
looking at the United States
00:23:42.87\00:23:45.71
even in its
practice of religion think
00:23:45.72\00:23:47.76
that it's
licensed. Well, we last Satan
00:23:47.77\00:23:50.25
and all of that,
they miss certain points
00:23:50.26\00:23:52.94
under the constitution.
00:23:52.95\00:23:54.29
And they look at it
as the many religious
00:23:54.30\00:23:56.52
writers in this country.
00:23:56.53\00:23:57.50
They see
abhorrent religious behavior
00:23:57.51\00:23:59.22
and think that's an abomination
00:23:59.23\00:24:00.27
and may be
legislatively stop it.
00:24:00.28\00:24:02.87
But we need to do
what God did right
00:24:02.88\00:24:06.06
in the original creation.
00:24:06.07\00:24:08.01
He allowed man the
choice to choose bad,
00:24:08.02\00:24:10.74
choose evil, choose death
00:24:10.75\00:24:12.84
or to choose life
in a correct view.
00:24:12.85\00:24:15.83
And so far that's
worked for the United States.
00:24:15.84\00:24:19.45
But it is a pretty messy
affair, pretty messy affair.
00:24:19.46\00:24:21.62
It is, and it is a
tough journey because
00:24:21.63\00:24:22.77
even Moses before he
departed in Deuteronomy
00:24:22.78\00:24:25.28
he brings the people to,
put before you life and death.
00:24:25.29\00:24:28.69
That's what I was
lenient to it before.
00:24:28.70\00:24:30.15
Exactly, and that's, that's
really the issue, its choice.
00:24:30.16\00:24:33.90
That's not a word
that's highly accepted
00:24:33.91\00:24:36.24
in American Culture.
00:24:36.25\00:24:38.05
Now we really want to
dictate what a person's view is,
00:24:38.06\00:24:42.47
so even if we say we
say we give you freedoms,
00:24:42.48\00:24:44.70
the freedom is
always managed on our terms.
00:24:44.71\00:24:48.39
So they are really
freedoms that are super imposed
00:24:48.40\00:24:51.40
under the control or
the guys of a true Liberty.
00:24:51.41\00:24:55.04
And only God gives
Liberty of conscience to choose.
00:24:55.05\00:24:58.14
And we need to be careful.
00:24:58.15\00:24:59.43
And I am getting
back on something
00:24:59.44\00:25:00.83
that I used to have
on several years ago
00:25:00.84\00:25:03.03
at the beginning of the
post 9/11, leave it there.
00:25:03.04\00:25:06.00
But you know, we were in danger
00:25:06.01\00:25:08.13
and still
abusing language loosely,
00:25:08.14\00:25:11.19
talk about freedom, talk
about freedom of expression,
00:25:11.20\00:25:15.10
in other ways meaning it.
00:25:15.11\00:25:16.69
For example, there used
to be the free speech zones.
00:25:16.70\00:25:22.80
There was a road off there
where you could speak freely
00:25:22.81\00:25:25.76
but nowhere else.
Did you know that?
00:25:25.77\00:25:28.12
I didn't know that.
00:25:28.13\00:25:29.10
After 9/11 President Bush
kept that to higher point.
00:25:29.11\00:25:32.44
They didn't want disruptions
to pedestrians who meditate.
00:25:32.48\00:25:34.64
So better mile away.
00:25:34.65\00:25:35.62
They'd rope off
to free speech zone.
00:25:35.63\00:25:38.03
So there is a contradiction.
00:25:38.04\00:25:39.28
So is that all the protestors
would gather at that point?
00:25:39.29\00:25:42.26
Absolutely, could get
arrested anywhere else
00:25:42.27\00:25:43.38
to speak freely but there.
00:25:43.39\00:25:46.27
You know, whether it's
talking about political speech
00:25:46.28\00:25:48.84
or religious speech,
the issue of freedom.
00:25:48.85\00:25:51.35
It always is. It
release people to express
00:25:51.36\00:25:53.87
themselves in their inner
most yearnings for a country,
00:25:53.88\00:25:58.00
but of course
that other country,
00:25:58.01\00:25:59.65
that far country how we
relate to heavenly things.
00:25:59.66\00:26:02.41
And God allowed that
even from the beginning,
00:26:02.42\00:26:06.18
in the Garden of Eden, he
gave them the opportunity.
00:26:06.19\00:26:09.28
And He said to them
that here is what you can do,
00:26:09.29\00:26:12.35
here the boundaries and
you can work within that.
00:26:12.36\00:26:14.83
Let me take a
moment Lincoln to introduce
00:26:14.84\00:26:16.66
our viewing
audience to Message Magazine.
00:26:16.67\00:26:19.05
If you are not familiar with it,
00:26:19.06\00:26:20.43
this is the
magazine we are speaking
00:26:20.44\00:26:22.36
about that
compliments the work of liberty.
00:26:22.37\00:26:25.24
You can find out more
about it on Message Magazine,
00:26:25.25\00:26:28.00
I should say on the web,
00:26:28.01\00:26:29.42
at messagemagazine.org or .com
00:26:29.43\00:26:32.33
And it's great as a
gift as a sharing peace.
00:26:32.34\00:26:35.54
Thank you for being
a part of this program,
00:26:35.55\00:26:37.60
it's been a wonder that we
have a wonderful opportunity
00:26:37.61\00:26:39.42
to having you
and we look forward
00:26:39.43\00:26:41.60
to you being with us, next time.
00:26:41.61\00:26:44.16
Religious Liberty is
an inexhaustible topic
00:26:45.85\00:26:48.40
for me at least, as I
edit Liberty Magazine,
00:26:48.41\00:26:51.50
there is an
unending stream of articles
00:26:51.51\00:26:53.72
mostly documenting Religious
Liberty in the negative.
00:26:53.73\00:26:57.44
But we need to
recognize that something
00:26:57.45\00:27:00.25
very positive exists in
relation to Religious Liberty.
00:27:00.26\00:27:03.96
This is what we practice
because are already liberated.
00:27:03.97\00:27:09.65
As Christians we know
that Christ released us
00:27:09.66\00:27:12.34
from the power of sin.
00:27:12.35\00:27:14.29
When we look
around us on the lives
00:27:14.30\00:27:16.34
Religious
Liberty front of course,
00:27:16.35\00:27:18.48
on a dynamic to
enable all people the right
00:27:18.49\00:27:23.00
to choose the correct destiny
00:27:23.01\00:27:25.60
we must may allow
people to disbelieve something,
00:27:25.61\00:27:28.97
to believe something erroneous,
00:27:28.98\00:27:30.75
something bizarre, but it root,
00:27:30.76\00:27:33.20
I believe in
Religious Liberty because
00:27:33.21\00:27:35.14
God is the great liberator.
00:27:35.15\00:27:38.69
This is a
privilege that is so inherent
00:27:38.70\00:27:41.20
and a proclamation that
we need to keep it in mind.
00:27:41.21\00:27:43.82
It's not legal.
It's not historic.
00:27:43.83\00:27:46.60
It's not social, and
all of these arguments
00:27:46.61\00:27:49.65
and aspects supply very equally,
00:27:49.66\00:27:52.76
but play
predominantly and singularly
00:27:52.77\00:27:55.99
when we look at it is the
fact that God is the creator
00:27:56.00\00:27:59.69
the liberator and the
guarantor of ongoing freedom.
00:27:59.70\00:28:06.23
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:06.24\00:28:09.40