Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Alan Reinach
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000138
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00:22 Welcome to the "Liberty Insider."
00:24 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine, 00:27 and we're going to discuss some very important 00:32 court cases relating to Religious Liberty. 00:34 Remember this program brings you news, views, discussion 00:37 and up to date information on Religious Liberty 00:39 issues in the U.S and overseas. 00:42 But these cases relate to the U.S. 00:44 And my guest Alan Reinach, Attorney, 00:47 so I think you can give us some 00:49 inside information on these. 00:50 There is a court case that's really currently 00:53 as we film this, and of course 00:55 we don't when it comes out 00:56 and when the decision will come down, 00:57 but the Supreme Court is currently looking at case, 01:01 Hosanna-Tabor versus 01:02 you can probably give the full title. 01:04 Well, it's the actually the 01:07 Equal Employment Opportunity Commission 01:09 that filed the case. 01:11 Presenting the Hosanna-Tabor! 01:12 Hosanna-Tabor Evangelical Lutheran Church and School. 01:16 And it has, I think myself some incredible implications 01:20 way beyond just, you know, how they displays this case 01:22 because it's concerning the exception, 01:27 ministerial exception given to churches 01:30 and church run operations. 01:32 Let's put it in context before 01:34 we get into the facts. 01:35 The real issue is whether Christian schools 01:38 will be allowed to remain 01:40 Christian schools in America whether... 01:42 Expedient and even church organizations maybe 01:45 come under governed oversight 01:46 like never before at this point. 01:47 Can we as Christian schools hire people 01:51 who we think are representative 01:54 of our faith to teach into transmit the faith 01:57 to our young people or is the State gonna 01:59 come in and tell us whom we can or cannot hire, 02:03 and in fact require us to retain teachers 02:07 that we deem unsuitable to transmit 02:10 the faith to our young people? 02:11 Now I will give personal preface 02:13 to this and of course, you now, 02:14 probably challenge that take it another direction. 02:16 But I think this is very hazardous 02:20 because of an anti-Satan to this 02:23 where in a number of cases Christian colleges 02:27 wanting government funding have seen it fit 02:30 to de-minimize their religious function, 02:33 which was ill-advised in my view, ill-advised because... 02:37 Can we name the institute? 02:39 No, but there is more than one. We oppose that. 02:42 Yeah, but there is more one, 02:43 but there is one that I have... 02:44 I got in trouble for opposing it. 02:47 But the dynamics were very interesting. 02:48 Clearly it was an argument of expediency, 02:51 it's the church constituency. 02:53 So, on the one hand... Always believed and still hope 02:55 that these institutions are promulgating... 02:58 You want make your institution appear 03:00 to be nonsectarian in order to qualify 03:03 for government funding. 03:04 And now when this exception principle comes up 03:08 suddenly we have to prove what I think has been 03:12 the case that there is pervasively religious 03:16 function, and this is..... or church 03:17 related function of the schools. 03:18 And this is really the problem 03:19 is that the courts no longer understand 03:24 what religious education is, if they ever did. 03:27 And so they looked at the status of a teacher 03:31 in Lutheran school who, you know, 03:35 how religious were her functions well let's see. 03:39 She taught religion classes 03:41 four days a week. Can I get back... 03:43 She read here students three times a day in prayer, 03:46 led a chapel service school wide twice each year. 03:51 But the courts have said that she was not a minister, 03:56 was not sufficiently engaged in religious activity 04:00 and therefore she could sue for discrimination. 04:03 What.... I mean she had some health issues 04:06 as I remember it was, what's the illness 04:10 when you fall asleep, Narcolepsy. Well... 04:13 She had narcolepsy and it appears 04:17 that was the issue that led them to dismiss her. 04:20 And her sue claims that's irrelevant because of, 04:26 sorry, yeah, she claimed that, the school claimed 04:29 that is ministerial exception, 04:31 so they have the right. 04:32 So let's bring this in contacts. 04:35 They can't bring these conditions forward. 04:38 The courts have generally recognized 04:40 that because of the first amendment, 04:42 because of what Christians have come to despise 04:46 the separation of church and State, 04:48 because of the separation of church and State 04:51 the courts are gonna stay out of telling the churches 04:55 about how to run their internal affairs, 04:58 and one which has to do with who is suitable 05:01 to be a minister within the church. 05:04 Well the Lutheran schools like the 05:07 Seventh-day Adventist schools, 05:09 we give a ministerial credential to teachers, 05:13 why because we regard teachers as performing 05:18 a vital ministerial function in transmitting 05:22 the faith to the kids. 05:23 But all the courts see is the education 05:26 to them is secular not religious. 05:29 And just because you have a Bible class 05:31 for 45 minutes or an hour in day or you pray 05:35 with that kids that does not make you a minister. 05:38 But the woman who is suing here, 05:40 she actually had accepted the both privileges 05:45 and the responsibilities of a ministerial license, 05:49 a ministerial credential, she was a minister. 05:52 But that I understand that different churches 05:55 in different ways formerly recognize different 05:58 employees as other a church pastor or minister, 06:03 right, or teacher with the ministerial 06:04 accreditation, right. 06:06 But that's not what determines whether or not 06:08 the States gives them that exception. 06:11 Well, in this case alright... 06:12 ...it is to establish within the church environment... 06:14 in this case... So there's no synchronicity 06:16 between the Church determining 06:19 this person is a minister 06:20 and the State recognizing it, 06:21 that's not really what is stake here. 06:22 This case is up before the Supreme Court. 06:25 It hasn't been argued yet. 06:26 Probably in the fall sometime, 06:29 by the spring of next year of 2012 06:33 is when a decision would be expected. 06:37 The courts, State and Federal courts 06:39 all over the country have been all over 06:41 the map on how inclusive or how narrow 06:44 they want to define the freedom of churches 06:48 to hire and fire clergy and ministers 06:50 and who is covered by this exception. 06:52 There is lot of stake isn't it? 06:54 Really in some ways they are very rude, 06:56 the operational autonomy of a church 06:58 organization from the State. 07:00 No question, because what this, look. 07:02 There are protections built into Federal law 07:06 that you can hire and fire ministers 07:09 and discriminate on the basis of religion, okay. 07:14 But the ministerial exception covers 07:17 discrimination of any kind, 07:19 so for example race discrimination, gender, age, 07:23 and in this case disability. 07:25 And it's unseemly it's a violation 07:29 of religious freedom for the State 07:31 to intrude on the internal affairs of the church. 07:35 But we learned long ago that when it comes 07:38 to a lot of our Labor Laws like do we have to comply 07:41 with the Equal Pay Act and pay women 07:44 the same has what we pay men. 07:46 Yes we do. We have to comply with minimum 07:49 Wage Laws and all kinds of Labor Laws 07:51 just because we are church 07:52 we still have to treat people 07:56 according to the Labor Laws. 07:57 But this has to do with how we select 08:01 and who we deem suitable to teach 08:04 children in a Christian school. 08:06 And so this really gets to the heart of whether 08:09 we're even permitted to operate 08:12 Christian schools in this country 08:14 because if we can't select our own faculty 08:18 for our schools then we might as well close up shop. 08:21 It's true, and then we don't need to talk 08:23 about it here but I need to make an illusion 08:25 to there is parallel gruyere developing around 08:30 home schooling and the State control. 08:32 So Christians who in the past have either 08:35 had church schools or educated their children 08:38 themselves may find that under extreme pressure 08:41 by law as well as by society to send their 08:44 children only to a State school. 08:46 And, you know, if you want of getting 08:49 a little glimpse of how important it is 08:51 that we keep our Christian schools. 08:53 I did a radio show on my Freedom's Ring program 08:57 a few months ago about four Baptists families 09:00 in Germany that were arrested 09:02 because they objected to their fourth graders 09:07 participating in the sex-ed curriculum. 09:10 They were being taught a very progressive... 09:12 This is a big reason for lot 09:13 of them home school of course... 09:14 And so you know there is all kinds of reasons 09:18 why public education can get out of hand 09:21 and why we need our Christian alternative. 09:24 Yeah, and of course this whole creation 09:26 Evolution debate is, sure, or is as of many people 09:30 of faith reason to send the children to public 09:32 to private religious schools. No questions. 09:34 My kids learned far more about 09:37 Evolution in Christian schools, 09:40 but they learned it from the standpoint of a biblical 09:43 worldview so they understood the weaknesses of it. 09:47 They know it inside out far better than kids 09:50 in public schools, yeah. 09:51 But they also understand limitations. 09:53 You know, currently within Seventh-day Adventism 09:55 there is a bit of vibrate debate 09:57 you don't need to get worried about, 10:00 how evolutionist is being taught 10:02 in one of our colleges and this lot going on 10:05 we don't need to share here. 10:06 But the underlying thing people need 10:07 to understand there is a great advantage 10:10 in a Christian school to be taught 10:12 something like Evolution, 10:14 but it's not though in unfiltered manner 10:16 it though in relationship to their faith. Right. 10:18 I would be very unhappy if in an Adventist school, 10:23 college or whatever that they never taught 10:26 about Evolution they would be sitting 10:27 to ducks to go out in the world. 10:29 They need to be forewarned, educated, and informed. 10:31 I know, you know, I'm on the same kind premise. 10:34 You know, we're sitting here in the studio 10:36 a few days before the raptures been predicted. 10:39 Well, I taught my kids all about the rapture 10:42 in the context of verses like, you know, 10:45 the Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout 10:47 and with the voice of the archangel 10:49 and the trump of God 10:51 and it's gonna be so quiet, 10:53 nobody is gonna hear it, yeah. 10:54 They got it. They understand. 10:57 You know, you have to expose kids 11:00 to these ideas in a context that helps them 11:03 to think for themselves and understand the depth of it. 11:06 So, if you've got any guess to know 11:07 where this is going, 11:08 it's always had the double guess to Supreme Court. 11:11 But do you think, they are going to close 11:12 or narrow or widen the ministerial exception. 11:15 What are the tea-leaves that 11:17 we can read into the situation? 11:18 You know, this Supreme Court 11:22 is kind of funny on religious issues. 11:24 They have been very hostile to the establishment 11:27 clause and this arguably is doctrinally 11:31 an establishment clause case 11:33 because it's Church of Economy, 11:35 it's the State keeping its hand off the church, 11:38 separation church and State. 11:40 But the court has been, this Roberts Court 11:42 has been pretty good on understanding 11:45 free exercise issues. 11:47 And of course there is an element of free 11:49 exercise here, yeah. 11:51 At the same token, when it comes to employment 11:54 the court has a mixed record 11:57 but they tend to favor the business 11:59 over the employer, employees, 12:02 although there have been some 12:03 good cases for employees. 12:06 My sense is that we will muddle through 12:10 somehow with a reasonable protection. 12:14 They will endorse the concept 12:17 of a ministerial exception 12:19 which is a First Amendment Principle, 12:21 it's in a constitutional premise that the court 12:24 stay out of telling the churches 12:27 who they can define as ministers. 12:29 Am I right in presuming not everything 12:30 has to go to the Supreme Court, 12:32 the mere fact that they have taken it, 12:33 must show they haven interest in this topic? 12:36 Well, okay. Typically cases go to 12:39 the Supreme Court when the lower courts 12:42 are divided and in conflict about 12:44 how they are applying the law. 12:46 And that's what's an issue here, 12:47 is a conflict among the circuit courts of appeal. 12:52 We'll be right back after a break to conclude 12:54 our discussion of this very distinct Supreme Court 12:57 case and go on to another one that 12:59 you may find even more interesting. 13:00 Stay with us don't, go away we'll be right back. 13:11 One-hundred years, a long time to do anything 13:14 much less publish a magazine, 13:16 but this year Liberty, 13:18 the Seventh-day Adventist voice of religious freedom, 13:21 celebrates one hundred years of doing 13:24 what it does best, collecting, analyzing, 13:27 and reporting the ebb and flow of religious expression 13:30 around the world. 13:31 Issue after issue, Liberty has taken on the 13:34 tough assignments, tracking down threats 13:37 to religious freedom and exposing the 13:38 work of the devil in every corner of the globe. 13:41 Governmental interference, personal attacks, 13:43 corporate assaults, even religious freedom issues 13:47 sequestered within the church community itself 13:49 have been clearly and honestly exposed. 13:51 Liberty exists for one purpose to help God's people 13:55 maintain that all the important separation of 13:58 Church and State, while recognizing the 14:00 dangers inherent in such a struggle. 14:03 During the past century, Liberty has experienced 14:06 challenges of its own, but it remains on the job. 14:09 Thanks to the inspired leadership of a long line 14:12 of dedicated Adventist Editors, 14:14 three of whom represent almost half of the 14:16 publications existence and the foresight 14:18 of a little woman from New England. 14:20 One hundred years of struggle, 14:22 one hundred years of victories, 14:25 religious freedom isn't just about political machines 14:28 and cultural prejudices. 14:29 It's about people fighting for the right 14:33 to serve the God they love as their hearts 14:35 and the Holy Spirit dictate. 14:37 Thanks to the prayers and generous support 14:40 of Seventh-day Adventists everywhere. 14:42 Liberty will continue to accomplish its work 14:45 of providing timely information, 14:46 spirit filled inspiration, 14:48 and heaven sent encouragement 14:50 to all who long to live and work in a world 14:54 bound together by the God ordained bonds 14:56 of religious freedom. 15:09 Welcome back from the break. 15:10 Before the break I was talking with Alan Reinach 15:14 about a very interesting ministerial exception case. 15:18 But there is another case that we should share 15:22 that gets to my sensibilities 15:24 more on prisoner's rights. 15:26 And this is a case that Supreme Court 15:28 already decided earlier this year. 15:32 Now, I'm a student of prophecy 15:35 as well as the student of Current Day events. 15:38 It strikes me first of all that we are rapidly 15:41 moving into what the Bible portrays 15:43 last day events where who knows when Gospel 15:47 come when the final persecution will come, 15:50 but this clearly a predicted time of general 15:52 application not just persecutions as they exist 15:55 in different countries when Christians, 15:57 people of faith, can be expected to be in prison 16:00 for more gratuitously for their faith. 16:02 And it troubles me that even in these good times 16:06 when you are brought up on crime and sent to prison, 16:09 you lose lot of your rights, of course, 16:11 and as well as that there is more prejudice. 16:14 There is whole different atmosphere often 16:16 over at force in a prison. 16:19 And this case concerns the right 16:22 to access for religious materials. 16:24 So let's put this in context for a minute 16:27 because as you say you commit 16:29 a crime you're locked up. 16:31 You have forfeited many of your rights. 16:34 But there is something so basic to humanity 16:37 and so basic to our country that you don't forfeit. 16:41 And that is your basic religious freedom 16:44 to have a Bible or religious literature 16:48 and to participate in worship services. 16:51 We have laws to that effect. 16:55 I get letters all the time. 16:56 I had one just week ago from someone 16:58 saying that they have been forbidden 17:00 or at least severely blocked in their 17:05 application to get a Bible, right. 17:07 So even though we say that they happen easily. 17:09 Back in the 90s when the Supreme Court 17:12 decimated the Free Exercise Clause 17:15 with the infamous peyote case, congress 17:17 responded past a broad statute protecting 17:22 religious freedom, Religious Freedom Restoration Act. 17:24 Supreme Court struck it down 17:26 and said it's too broad you have to have 17:30 a statute that remedies a specific problem. 17:34 So Congress held hearings 17:36 and in those hearings there were two big 17:39 problems that emerged what were the great 17:42 free exercise problems in American life. 17:45 One had do without churches are treated 17:48 in the land use process in there communities. 17:51 And the other one had to do with the rights 17:53 of prisoners and how prisoners' access 17:57 to religious services, access to literature, 18:00 is routinely denied. 18:02 And so Congress stepped in 18:04 and applied constitutional protection 18:07 and a statute past in the year 2000 18:09 affectionately known by its acronym, RLUIPA, 18:13 Religious Land Use 18:14 and Institutionalized Persons Act. 18:16 And it put the onus in, you know, 18:20 in the case of prisoners on prisons to respect 18:22 the freedom of religion of the inmates. 18:26 Yeah, little aside for those that regularly 18:29 watch this program, what we missed often 18:31 spoken about from RLUIPA is churches, land use, yeah, 18:35 which is a huge problem, which is a huge problem. 18:37 And I think it continues on a lower level. 18:39 There is lot of community objection 18:41 on many occasions to church coming 18:44 in buying land and building the church. 18:46 Well the community policy is always 18:48 is loss of tax revenue, yes, 18:51 and they see the people coming in. 18:54 If you look at anywhere where there is growth 18:57 just not too many places right now 19:00 in terms of the housing market, 19:01 but all of these communities they plan out, 19:04 you know, how many houses they are gonna built, 19:07 they don't allocate places to put churches, 19:09 yeah. It's atrocious really. 19:12 Anyhow we are not dwelling that. 19:14 I think an underlying social problem is that 19:16 more and more of those churches 19:18 and those that attend them represent an out 19:19 of the neighborhood phenomena not necessary 19:23 joining from the community, 19:25 but that's still a legal right to, you know, 19:28 to find some land and people drive 19:30 from 20, 30 mile all the way to... 19:31 You build a certain number houses you gonna 19:34 allocate so much land for gas station, 19:37 it should be absolutely, for grocery stores 19:38 and there is no palace to put a church, yeah, 19:41 doesn't make any sense. 19:42 People do come in this country 19:44 we still come together to worship. 19:47 So that's the Religious Land Use 19:48 and Institutionalized Persons Act is... 19:50 So this case saw some inverses taxes. 19:53 The issue was whether you can get money damages 19:57 if you prove a violation. 19:59 The prisoner and it's very difficult for prisoners 20:02 ever to win cases by the way. 20:04 But in this case the prisoner won claiming 20:07 that he was denied access 20:08 to Chapel and Religious Services 20:11 and I think also literature that he was denied. 20:15 To point this he won, 20:17 he was awarded damages and courts overturned it 20:21 and said no, under the statute 20:24 you are not entitled to collect damages. 20:27 Because the statute provided 20:30 'Appropriate Relief' is the term, 20:33 which in, you know, in Federal Statutes 20:38 that will always the most basic relief 20:41 if you sue what you get, your money if, 20:43 you know, what you've suffered you get money. 20:45 But the courts are saying, no sovereign immunity, 20:48 the States did not wave their immunity, 20:52 you can't sue them from money so... 20:55 In this case did they reverse those polices, 20:57 they gave to rise to the suit in the first place. 21:00 Is he receiving the religious materials and so... 21:03 I don't know but with the prisoners 21:05 they play so many games they will just move 21:07 them somewhere else and say the case is moved. 21:10 Look, if you can't sue for money either 21:13 in the land use context or the prisoner 21:15 context then the State has no incentive 21:18 at all to follow the law. 21:21 They just dig in their heels and, 21:23 you know, they don't care. 21:25 And this is where we are now. 21:26 This is exactly where we are... 21:28 So this is extremely grave for prisoners' 21:30 rights of religious freedom. 21:31 Earlier we were talking about the importance 21:33 of people joining the North American 21:35 Religious Liberty Association, NARLA, 21:38 and this is exactly the kind of issue 21:40 we need to introduce legislation 21:42 to clarify the statute, to provide money damages 21:47 and people who care about Religious Liberty 21:49 need to be part of an organization like NARLA, 21:52 so that when we introduce it or they can 21:56 right there letters, they can visit 21:58 their congressional offices and we can fix it. 22:00 It's easy to fix. It has to go through Congress. 22:03 Congress has to clarify money 22:06 damages for these violations. Yeah, I think you are right. 22:09 Legislative fixes the only way this will go... 22:11 Well you can't go, you can't appeal beyond the Supreme Court 22:14 But they're interpreting a statute. 22:16 They said the statute was not sufficiently 22:20 clear in providing money damages 22:22 we can go back and we do that often 22:25 if the Supreme Court gets reversed by Congress. 22:28 I think this is shown you are right. 22:29 There is appeal beyond the court, 22:30 but I think it's shown that this is not an aberration. 22:32 I mean this is the standard dynamic 22:36 and it's not about to be changed. 22:38 The on-going problem is pretty much now formalized, 22:42 but I felt for a long time that even though 22:46 we pay lip service to the rights of prisoners 22:50 in practice, behind bars, 22:52 it's the luck of the draw 22:53 what you get and I believe in times of stress. 22:55 Right now if you are someone accused 22:58 of terrorism what will happen, 23:00 if you're someone accused of a sex crime 23:03 we know what happens, the prisoners deal with you. 23:06 And sometimes you need protecting 23:09 from the other prisoners, not just from the State. 23:11 So that whole thing when you have people 23:14 on Conscience issues, we can say Religious Liberty 23:17 is whole array of Conscience issues. 23:19 When you know that if they're put behind bars 23:21 in this country the American legal system, 23:24 the constitution that we hold so, 23:26 we all hold so dear that pretty much evaporates. 23:30 I think that's the reason to do something about this. 23:32 Well they are somebasic things 23:35 that we are to provide for our prisoners. 23:37 Number one a physically safe environment. 23:41 They shouldn't be put in prison to be, 23:43 you know, beaten up, tortured, abused whatever. 23:46 It should be safe and they should 23:48 at least have the freedom to worship God. 23:50 We take away many of their rights 23:54 as we should, if they are in prison. 23:56 But the basic Liberty of Conscience 23:59 the idea that people are answerable to God 24:03 if anything we should be encouraging people 24:06 to develop the spiritual side of their lives 24:11 because that's how they can turnaround. 24:13 Eventually most of the folks we put away, 24:16 guess what they are coming back out 24:19 to be our neighbors. 24:20 And so, you know, what do we want. 24:22 We want them to go to the college of criminal 24:26 achievement and make the prisons, you know, 24:29 a school of criminal endeavor or do 24:32 we want them to actually turn their lives around. 24:34 Absolutely. I think there is another dynamic. 24:36 It's probably not legal discussion to put with this, 24:40 but just a present day reality. 24:42 We know that since 911, 24:44 Homeland Security and whole 24:47 society has looked more closely 24:49 what's happening at the prisoners. 24:50 And we see recruitment for radical 24:54 form in this case Islam, that's true, that's right. 24:57 And the prison system and society 24:59 is starting to look at answers 25:02 of that how we deal with it. 25:04 And I think the net effect is going 25:05 to be unless you are part of one of the major 25:09 religious affections in the United States today, 25:12 they're going to start restricting all religious 25:14 activity in a prison outside of that rationalizing 25:18 that this protects the safety and security 25:20 not only of the prison but of the country, 25:21 that's not gonna come to a good end. 25:23 You know, that's a very interesting 25:27 thought Lincoln and I hadn't, 25:28 I really hadn't given 25:30 consideration to that previously. 25:31 I have seen it developing 25:32 and I only see it becoming more so, 25:35 it's not diminishing. 25:36 Well, we know that outside of the prison 25:38 that the mosques are very concerned 25:41 about FBI infiltration and monitoring and restricting 25:45 the religious freedom because of the 25:47 suspicion of terrorist activity in the mosques 25:50 and, you know, as someone who values religious freedom 25:53 I have, you know, mixed feelings 25:56 so I certainly want the FBI to keep the same. 25:58 Well, it's true. Our sensibilities are blown 26:02 about by government statements 26:05 because we want to feel secure 26:06 and on one level we might believe on religious 26:10 and several freedoms but yet 26:12 then we see this picture of a threat the society 26:14 would easily manipulated, well we are, and in a prison 26:17 the vulnerability is even greater. 26:20 Well, look. If religious freedom means 26:23 anything for any Americans it has to also mean 26:26 something to the most vulnerable 26:28 and to the most despised the ones 26:30 we put away in prison. 26:32 This RLUIPA statute is critical, 26:34 and this issue just shows the importance of people 26:39 stepping up to the plate, being informed, 26:41 getting involved in the North American 26:43 Religious Liberty Association 26:45 and doing your part to protect religious freedom. 26:49 Jesus gave some very interesting responses 26:51 to the challenges thrown out at Him 26:54 by the skeptics in his day. 26:55 On one occasion they asked Him 26:58 about a great catastrophe 26:59 that had just taken place. 27:01 He said, in reply He said those people 27:04 that were killed when that terror fell on them. 27:07 He said do you suppose that they will 27:09 worse sinners than anyone else. 27:11 I tell you no. When we look at those 27:15 who are imprisoned in our country, 27:18 in our society we know that many of them 27:22 are what we would call criminals 27:23 for particular criminal acts. 27:26 But before God can we really say that they 27:29 are less morally deserving than any 27:32 of it or have fallen short. 27:34 And therefore it is in our compass 27:37 I think to defend their rights 27:40 and particularly to make sure that they have access 27:42 to religious services, 27:45 that they have access to Holy Books 27:47 and to religious instruction. 27:49 We can do no better work than to defend 27:53 this in any system of law, 27:55 but to defend those who are under 27:58 the compass of the law, 27:59 under the punishment of the law 28:01 and greatly in need of the help 28:05 that's spiritual advices can give. 28:07 For Liberty Insider this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17