Welcome to the
"Liberty Insider."
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine,
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and we're going to
discuss some very important
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court cases relating
to Religious Liberty.
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Remember this program brings
you news, views, discussion
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and up to date
information on Religious Liberty
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issues in the U.S and overseas.
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But these cases
relate to the U.S.
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And my guest Alan
Reinach, Attorney,
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so I think you can give us some
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inside information on these.
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There is a court case
that's really currently
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as we film this, and of course
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we don't when it comes out
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and when the
decision will come down,
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but the Supreme Court is
currently looking at case,
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Hosanna-Tabor versus
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you can probably
give the full title.
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Well, it's the actually the
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Equal Employment
Opportunity Commission
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that filed the case.
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Presenting the Hosanna-Tabor!
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Hosanna-Tabor Evangelical
Lutheran Church and School.
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And it has, I think myself
some incredible implications
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way beyond just, you know,
how they displays this case
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because it's
concerning the exception,
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ministerial
exception given to churches
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and church run operations.
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Let's put it in context before
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we get into the facts.
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The real issue is
whether Christian schools
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will be allowed to remain
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Christian schools
in America whether...
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Expedient and even
church organizations maybe
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come under governed oversight
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like never before at this point.
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Can we as
Christian schools hire people
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who we think are representative
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of our faith to teach
into transmit the faith
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to our young people
or is the State gonna
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come in and tell us
whom we can or cannot hire,
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and in fact require
us to retain teachers
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that we deem
unsuitable to transmit
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the faith to our young people?
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Now I will give personal preface
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to this and of course, you now,
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probably challenge that
take it another direction.
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But I think this
is very hazardous
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because of an anti-Satan to this
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where in a number of
cases Christian colleges
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wanting government
funding have seen it fit
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to de-minimize
their religious function,
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which was ill-advised in my
view, ill-advised because...
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Can we name the institute?
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No, but there is more
than one. We oppose that.
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Yeah, but there is more one,
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but there is one that I have...
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I got in
trouble for opposing it.
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But the dynamics
were very interesting.
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Clearly it was an
argument of expediency,
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it's the church constituency.
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So, on the one hand...
Always believed and still hope
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that these
institutions are promulgating...
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You want make
your institution appear
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to be nonsectarian
in order to qualify
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for government funding.
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And now when this
exception principle comes up
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suddenly we have to
prove what I think has been
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the case that there
is pervasively religious
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function, and
this is..... or church
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related function of the schools.
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And this is really the problem
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is that the courts
no longer understand
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what religious
education is, if they ever did.
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And so they looked at
the status of a teacher
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in Lutheran
school who, you know,
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how religious were her
functions well let's see.
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She taught religion classes
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four days a
week. Can I get back...
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She read here students
three times a day in prayer,
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led a chapel service
school wide twice each year.
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But the courts have said
that she was not a minister,
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was not sufficiently
engaged in religious activity
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and therefore she
could sue for discrimination.
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What.... I mean she
had some health issues
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as I remember it
was, what's the illness
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when you fall
asleep, Narcolepsy. Well...
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She had
narcolepsy and it appears
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that was the issue that
led them to dismiss her.
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And her sue claims
that's irrelevant because of,
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sorry, yeah, she
claimed that, the school claimed
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that is ministerial exception,
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so they have the right.
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So let's bring this in contacts.
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They can't bring
these conditions forward.
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The courts have
generally recognized
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that because of
the first amendment,
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because of what
Christians have come to despise
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the separation
of church and State,
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because of the
separation of church and State
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the courts are gonna stay
out of telling the churches
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about how to run
their internal affairs,
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and one which has to
do with who is suitable
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to be a minister
within the church.
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Well the
Lutheran schools like the
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Seventh-day Adventist schools,
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we give a ministerial
credential to teachers,
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why because we regard
teachers as performing
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a vital ministerial
function in transmitting
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the faith to the kids.
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But all the courts
see is the education
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to them is
secular not religious.
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And just because
you have a Bible class
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for 45 minutes or an
hour in day or you pray
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with that kids that
does not make you a minister.
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But the woman who is suing here,
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she actually had
accepted the both privileges
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and the responsibilities
of a ministerial license,
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a ministerial
credential, she was a minister.
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But that I understand
that different churches
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in different ways
formerly recognize different
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employees as other a
church pastor or minister,
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right, or teacher
with the ministerial
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accreditation, right.
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But that's not what
determines whether or not
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the States gives
them that exception.
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Well, in this case alright...
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...it is to establish
within the church environment...
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in this case... So
there's no synchronicity
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between the Church determining
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this person is a minister
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and the State recognizing it,
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that's not really
what is stake here.
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This case is up
before the Supreme Court.
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It hasn't been argued yet.
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Probably in the fall sometime,
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by the spring of
next year of 2012
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is when a
decision would be expected.
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The courts, State
and Federal courts
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all over the
country have been all over
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the map on how
inclusive or how narrow
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they want to define
the freedom of churches
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to hire and fire
clergy and ministers
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and who is
covered by this exception.
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There is lot of stake isn't it?
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Really in some
ways they are very rude,
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the operational
autonomy of a church
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organization from the State.
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No question,
because what this, look.
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There are protections
built into Federal law
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that you can hire
and fire ministers
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and discriminate on the
basis of religion, okay.
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But the
ministerial exception covers
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discrimination of any kind,
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so for example race
discrimination, gender, age,
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and in this case disability.
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And it's
unseemly it's a violation
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of religious
freedom for the State
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to intrude on the
internal affairs of the church.
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But we learned long
ago that when it comes
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to a lot of our Labor
Laws like do we have to comply
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with the Equal
Pay Act and pay women
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the same has what we pay men.
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Yes we do. We have
to comply with minimum
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Wage Laws and all
kinds of Labor Laws
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just because we are church
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we still have to treat people
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according to the Labor Laws.
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But this has to
do with how we select
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and who we deem
suitable to teach
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children in a Christian school.
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And so this really
gets to the heart of whether
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we're even permitted to operate
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Christian
schools in this country
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because if we can't
select our own faculty
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for our schools then we
might as well close up shop.
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It's true, and then
we don't need to talk
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about it here but I
need to make an illusion
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to there is parallel
gruyere developing around
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home schooling
and the State control.
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So Christians who
in the past have either
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had church schools or
educated their children
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themselves may find
that under extreme pressure
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by law as well as by
society to send their
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children only to a State school.
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And, you know, if
you want of getting
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a little glimpse
of how important it is
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that we keep our
Christian schools.
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I did a radio show on
my Freedom's Ring program
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a few months ago
about four Baptists families
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in Germany that were arrested
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because they objected
to their fourth graders
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participating in
the sex-ed curriculum.
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They were being
taught a very progressive...
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This is a big reason for lot
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of them home school of course...
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And so you know there
is all kinds of reasons
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why public
education can get out of hand
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and why we need our
Christian alternative.
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Yeah, and of
course this whole creation
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Evolution debate is,
sure, or is as of many people
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of faith reason to
send the children to public
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to private religious
schools. No questions.
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My kids learned far more about
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Evolution in Christian schools,
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but they learned it from
the standpoint of a biblical
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worldview so they
understood the weaknesses of it.
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They know it inside
out far better than kids
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in public schools, yeah.
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But they also
understand limitations.
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You know, currently
within Seventh-day Adventism
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there is a bit of vibrate debate
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you don't need to
get worried about,
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how evolutionist is being taught
00:10:00.44\00:10:02.30
in one of our
colleges and this lot going on
00:10:02.31\00:10:05.34
we don't need to share here.
00:10:05.35\00:10:06.56
But the
underlying thing people need
00:10:06.57\00:10:07.77
to understand there
is a great advantage
00:10:07.78\00:10:10.55
in a Christian
school to be taught
00:10:10.56\00:10:12.34
something like Evolution,
00:10:12.35\00:10:14.09
but it's not though
in unfiltered manner
00:10:14.10\00:10:16.24
it though in relationship
to their faith. Right.
00:10:16.25\00:10:18.73
I would be very unhappy
if in an Adventist school,
00:10:18.74\00:10:23.37
college or whatever
that they never taught
00:10:23.38\00:10:26.47
about Evolution
they would be sitting
00:10:26.48\00:10:27.78
to ducks to go out in the world.
00:10:27.79\00:10:29.01
They need to be forewarned,
educated, and informed.
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I know, you know, I'm
on the same kind premise.
00:10:31.72\00:10:34.07
You know, we're
sitting here in the studio
00:10:34.08\00:10:36.17
a few days before the
raptures been predicted.
00:10:36.18\00:10:39.29
Well, I taught my
kids all about the rapture
00:10:39.30\00:10:42.34
in the context of
verses like, you know,
00:10:42.35\00:10:45.14
the Lord shall descend
from heaven with a shout
00:10:45.15\00:10:47.43
and with the
voice of the archangel
00:10:47.44\00:10:49.76
and the trump of God
00:10:49.77\00:10:51.81
and it's gonna be so quiet,
00:10:51.82\00:10:53.04
nobody is gonna hear it, yeah.
00:10:53.05\00:10:54.94
They got it. They understand.
00:10:54.95\00:10:57.35
You know, you
have to expose kids
00:10:57.36\00:11:00.29
to these ideas in a
context that helps them
00:11:00.30\00:11:03.31
to think for themselves
and understand the depth of it.
00:11:03.32\00:11:06.39
So, if you've
got any guess to know
00:11:06.40\00:11:07.67
where this is going,
00:11:07.68\00:11:08.74
it's always had the
double guess to Supreme Court.
00:11:08.75\00:11:11.28
But do you think,
they are going to close
00:11:11.29\00:11:12.63
or narrow or widen
the ministerial exception.
00:11:12.64\00:11:15.68
What are the tea-leaves that
00:11:15.69\00:11:17.55
we can read into the situation?
00:11:17.56\00:11:18.76
You know, this Supreme Court
00:11:18.77\00:11:22.05
is kind of funny
on religious issues.
00:11:22.06\00:11:24.56
They have been very
hostile to the establishment
00:11:24.57\00:11:27.60
clause and this
arguably is doctrinally
00:11:27.61\00:11:31.78
an establishment clause case
00:11:31.79\00:11:33.69
because it's Church of Economy,
00:11:33.70\00:11:35.51
it's the State keeping
its hand off the church,
00:11:35.52\00:11:38.42
separation church and State.
00:11:38.43\00:11:39.97
But the court has
been, this Roberts Court
00:11:39.98\00:11:42.70
has been pretty
good on understanding
00:11:42.71\00:11:45.54
free exercise issues.
00:11:45.55\00:11:47.79
And of course there
is an element of free
00:11:47.80\00:11:49.70
exercise here, yeah.
00:11:49.71\00:11:51.45
At the same token,
when it comes to employment
00:11:51.46\00:11:54.92
the court has a mixed record
00:11:54.93\00:11:57.46
but they tend to
favor the business
00:11:57.47\00:11:59.74
over the employer, employees,
00:11:59.75\00:12:02.43
although there have been some
00:12:02.44\00:12:03.79
good cases for employees.
00:12:03.80\00:12:06.36
My sense is that
we will muddle through
00:12:06.37\00:12:10.71
somehow with a
reasonable protection.
00:12:10.72\00:12:14.50
They will endorse the concept
00:12:14.51\00:12:17.30
of a ministerial exception
00:12:17.31\00:12:18.98
which is a First
Amendment Principle,
00:12:18.99\00:12:21.00
it's in a constitutional
premise that the court
00:12:21.01\00:12:24.60
stay out of telling the churches
00:12:24.61\00:12:27.09
who they can
define as ministers.
00:12:27.10\00:12:29.37
Am I right in
presuming not everything
00:12:29.38\00:12:30.95
has to go to the Supreme Court,
00:12:30.96\00:12:32.14
the mere fact that
they have taken it,
00:12:32.15\00:12:33.90
must show they haven
interest in this topic?
00:12:33.91\00:12:35.99
Well, okay.
Typically cases go to
00:12:36.00\00:12:36.99
the Supreme Court
when the lower courts
00:12:39.32\00:12:42.35
are divided and
in conflict about
00:12:42.36\00:12:44.73
how they are applying the law.
00:12:44.74\00:12:45.99
And that's what's an issue here,
00:12:46.00\00:12:47.86
is a conflict among the
circuit courts of appeal.
00:12:47.87\00:12:50.98
We'll be right back
after a break to conclude
00:12:52.19\00:12:54.25
our discussion of this
very distinct Supreme Court
00:12:54.26\00:12:57.09
case and go on
to another one that
00:12:57.10\00:12:59.02
you may find
even more interesting.
00:12:59.03\00:13:00.43
Stay with us don't, go
away we'll be right back.
00:13:00.44\00:13:03.30
One-hundred years, a
long time to do anything
00:13:11.11\00:13:14.94
much less publish a magazine,
00:13:14.95\00:13:16.66
but this year Liberty,
00:13:16.67\00:13:18.94
the Seventh-day Adventist
voice of religious freedom,
00:13:18.95\00:13:21.49
celebrates one
hundred years of doing
00:13:21.50\00:13:24.19
what it does best,
collecting, analyzing,
00:13:24.20\00:13:27.13
and reporting the ebb and
flow of religious expression
00:13:27.14\00:13:30.11
around the world.
00:13:30.12\00:13:31.20
Issue after issue,
Liberty has taken on the
00:13:31.21\00:13:34.64
tough assignments,
tracking down threats
00:13:34.65\00:13:36.98
to religious
freedom and exposing the
00:13:36.99\00:13:38.58
work of the devil in
every corner of the globe.
00:13:38.59\00:13:41.13
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:41.14\00:13:43.96
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom issues
00:13:43.97\00:13:47.07
sequestered within the
church community itself
00:13:47.08\00:13:49.08
have been clearly
and honestly exposed.
00:13:49.09\00:13:51.72
Liberty exists for one
purpose to help God's people
00:13:51.73\00:13:55.90
maintain that all the
important separation of
00:13:55.91\00:13:58.59
Church and State,
while recognizing the
00:13:58.60\00:14:00.90
dangers inherent
in such a struggle.
00:14:00.91\00:14:02.97
During the past
century, Liberty has experienced
00:14:03.70\00:14:06.14
challenges of its own,
but it remains on the job.
00:14:06.15\00:14:09.41
Thanks to the inspired
leadership of a long line
00:14:09.42\00:14:12.59
of dedicated Adventist Editors,
00:14:12.60\00:14:14.01
three of whom
represent almost half of the
00:14:14.02\00:14:16.25
publications
existence and the foresight
00:14:16.26\00:14:18.60
of a little
woman from New England.
00:14:18.61\00:14:20.71
One hundred years of struggle,
00:14:20.72\00:14:22.63
one hundred years of victories,
00:14:22.64\00:14:24.99
religious freedom isn't
just about political machines
00:14:25.00\00:14:28.45
and cultural prejudices.
00:14:28.46\00:14:29.75
It's about people
fighting for the right
00:14:29.76\00:14:33.03
to serve the God
they love as their hearts
00:14:33.04\00:14:35.82
and the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:35.83\00:14:37.81
Thanks to the
prayers and generous support
00:14:37.82\00:14:40.37
of Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere.
00:14:40.38\00:14:42.41
Liberty will continue
to accomplish its work
00:14:42.42\00:14:45.06
of providing timely information,
00:14:45.07\00:14:46.69
spirit filled inspiration,
00:14:46.70\00:14:48.17
and heaven sent encouragement
00:14:48.18\00:14:50.04
to all who long to
live and work in a world
00:14:50.05\00:14:54.01
bound together by
the God ordained bonds
00:14:54.02\00:14:56.89
of religious freedom.
00:14:56.90\00:14:58.71
Welcome back from the break.
00:15:09.11\00:15:10.57
Before the break I was
talking with Alan Reinach
00:15:10.58\00:15:14.16
about a very interesting
ministerial exception case.
00:15:14.17\00:15:18.95
But there is another
case that we should share
00:15:18.96\00:15:22.15
that gets to my sensibilities
00:15:22.16\00:15:24.92
more on prisoner's rights.
00:15:24.93\00:15:26.17
And this is a
case that Supreme Court
00:15:26.18\00:15:28.87
already decided
earlier this year.
00:15:28.88\00:15:31.32
Now, I'm a student of prophecy
00:15:32.12\00:15:35.79
as well as the
student of Current Day events.
00:15:35.80\00:15:38.42
It strikes me first of
all that we are rapidly
00:15:38.43\00:15:41.01
moving into what
the Bible portrays
00:15:41.02\00:15:43.23
last day events
where who knows when Gospel
00:15:43.24\00:15:47.63
come when the final
persecution will come,
00:15:47.64\00:15:50.28
but this clearly a
predicted time of general
00:15:50.29\00:15:52.62
application not just
persecutions as they exist
00:15:52.63\00:15:55.76
in different
countries when Christians,
00:15:55.77\00:15:57.17
people of faith, can be
expected to be in prison
00:15:57.18\00:16:00.13
for more
gratuitously for their faith.
00:16:00.14\00:16:02.75
And it troubles me that
even in these good times
00:16:02.76\00:16:06.28
when you are brought up
on crime and sent to prison,
00:16:06.29\00:16:09.58
you lose lot of
your rights, of course,
00:16:09.59\00:16:11.78
and as well as that
there is more prejudice.
00:16:11.79\00:16:14.30
There is whole
different atmosphere often
00:16:14.31\00:16:16.86
over at force in a prison.
00:16:16.87\00:16:18.86
And this case concerns the right
00:16:19.70\00:16:22.21
to access for
religious materials.
00:16:22.22\00:16:24.84
So let's put this
in context for a minute
00:16:24.85\00:16:27.53
because as you say you commit
00:16:27.54\00:16:29.65
a crime you're locked up.
00:16:29.66\00:16:31.10
You have forfeited
many of your rights.
00:16:31.11\00:16:34.39
But there is
something so basic to humanity
00:16:34.40\00:16:37.63
and so basic to our
country that you don't forfeit.
00:16:37.64\00:16:41.21
And that is your
basic religious freedom
00:16:41.22\00:16:44.17
to have a Bible or
religious literature
00:16:44.18\00:16:48.77
and to participate
in worship services.
00:16:48.78\00:16:51.73
We have laws to that effect.
00:16:51.74\00:16:55.37
I get letters all the time.
00:16:55.38\00:16:56.86
I had one just
week ago from someone
00:16:56.87\00:16:58.67
saying that they
have been forbidden
00:16:58.68\00:17:00.73
or at least
severely blocked in their
00:17:00.74\00:17:05.19
application to
get a Bible, right.
00:17:05.20\00:17:07.18
So even though we say
that they happen easily.
00:17:07.19\00:17:09.82
Back in the 90s
when the Supreme Court
00:17:09.83\00:17:12.92
decimated the
Free Exercise Clause
00:17:12.93\00:17:15.72
with the infamous
peyote case, congress
00:17:15.73\00:17:17.92
responded past a
broad statute protecting
00:17:17.93\00:17:22.03
religious freedom, Religious
Freedom Restoration Act.
00:17:22.04\00:17:24.72
Supreme Court struck it down
00:17:24.73\00:17:26.68
and said it's too
broad you have to have
00:17:26.69\00:17:30.58
a statute that
remedies a specific problem.
00:17:30.59\00:17:34.23
So Congress held hearings
00:17:34.24\00:17:36.28
and in those
hearings there were two big
00:17:36.29\00:17:39.61
problems that
emerged what were the great
00:17:39.62\00:17:42.00
free exercise
problems in American life.
00:17:42.01\00:17:45.01
One had do without
churches are treated
00:17:45.02\00:17:48.06
in the land use
process in there communities.
00:17:48.07\00:17:51.47
And the other one
had to do with the rights
00:17:51.48\00:17:53.54
of prisoners and
how prisoners' access
00:17:53.55\00:17:57.90
to religious
services, access to literature,
00:17:57.91\00:18:00.70
is routinely denied.
00:18:00.71\00:18:02.39
And so Congress stepped in
00:18:02.40\00:18:04.11
and applied
constitutional protection
00:18:04.12\00:18:06.99
and a statute
past in the year 2000
00:18:07.00\00:18:09.62
affectionately known
by its acronym, RLUIPA,
00:18:09.63\00:18:13.19
Religious Land Use
00:18:13.20\00:18:14.48
and
Institutionalized Persons Act.
00:18:14.49\00:18:16.53
And it put the
onus in, you know,
00:18:16.54\00:18:20.00
in the case of
prisoners on prisons to respect
00:18:20.01\00:18:22.90
the freedom of
religion of the inmates.
00:18:22.91\00:18:26.04
Yeah, little aside
for those that regularly
00:18:26.05\00:18:28.99
watch this program,
what we missed often
00:18:29.00\00:18:31.57
spoken about from RLUIPA
is churches, land use, yeah,
00:18:31.58\00:18:35.50
which is a huge problem,
which is a huge problem.
00:18:35.51\00:18:37.27
And I think it
continues on a lower level.
00:18:37.28\00:18:39.81
There is lot of
community objection
00:18:39.82\00:18:41.87
on many
occasions to church coming
00:18:41.88\00:18:44.69
in buying land and
building the church.
00:18:44.70\00:18:46.51
Well the
community policy is always
00:18:46.52\00:18:48.14
is loss of tax revenue, yes,
00:18:48.15\00:18:51.34
and they see the
people coming in.
00:18:51.35\00:18:54.08
If you look at
anywhere where there is growth
00:18:54.09\00:18:57.29
just not too
many places right now
00:18:57.30\00:19:00.44
in terms of the housing market,
00:19:00.45\00:19:01.84
but all of these
communities they plan out,
00:19:01.85\00:19:04.84
you know, how many
houses they are gonna built,
00:19:04.85\00:19:07.05
they don't allocate
places to put churches,
00:19:07.06\00:19:09.45
yeah. It's atrocious really.
00:19:09.46\00:19:11.98
Anyhow we are not dwelling that.
00:19:11.99\00:19:14.07
I think an underlying
social problem is that
00:19:14.08\00:19:16.88
more and more of those churches
00:19:16.89\00:19:18.85
and those that
attend them represent an out
00:19:18.86\00:19:19.85
of the neighborhood
phenomena not necessary
00:19:19.86\00:19:23.88
joining from the community,
00:19:23.89\00:19:25.43
but that's still a
legal right to, you know,
00:19:25.44\00:19:28.77
to find some
land and people drive
00:19:28.78\00:19:30.42
from 20, 30 mile
all the way to...
00:19:30.43\00:19:31.85
You build a certain
number houses you gonna
00:19:31.86\00:19:34.71
allocate so much
land for gas station,
00:19:34.72\00:19:37.36
it should be
absolutely, for grocery stores
00:19:37.37\00:19:38.76
and there is no
palace to put a church, yeah,
00:19:38.77\00:19:41.23
doesn't make any sense.
00:19:41.24\00:19:42.30
People do come in this country
00:19:42.31\00:19:44.90
we still come
together to worship.
00:19:44.91\00:19:46.99
So that's the Religious Land Use
00:19:47.00\00:19:48.44
and Institutionalized
Persons Act is...
00:19:48.45\00:19:50.41
So this case saw
some inverses taxes.
00:19:50.42\00:19:53.64
The issue was whether
you can get money damages
00:19:53.65\00:19:57.60
if you prove a violation.
00:19:57.61\00:19:59.26
The prisoner and it's
very difficult for prisoners
00:19:59.27\00:20:02.68
ever to win cases by the way.
00:20:02.69\00:20:04.34
But in this case the
prisoner won claiming
00:20:04.35\00:20:07.28
that he was denied access
00:20:07.29\00:20:08.84
to Chapel and Religious Services
00:20:08.85\00:20:11.04
and I think also
literature that he was denied.
00:20:11.05\00:20:15.38
To point this he won,
00:20:15.39\00:20:17.63
he was awarded damages
and courts overturned it
00:20:17.64\00:20:21.65
and said no, under the statute
00:20:21.66\00:20:24.37
you are not
entitled to collect damages.
00:20:24.38\00:20:27.37
Because the statute provided
00:20:27.38\00:20:30.94
'Appropriate
Relief' is the term,
00:20:30.95\00:20:33.95
which in, you
know, in Federal Statutes
00:20:33.96\00:20:38.18
that will always
the most basic relief
00:20:38.19\00:20:41.03
if you sue what
you get, your money if,
00:20:41.04\00:20:43.64
you know, what you've
suffered you get money.
00:20:43.65\00:20:45.92
But the courts are
saying, no sovereign immunity,
00:20:45.93\00:20:48.76
the States did not
wave their immunity,
00:20:48.77\00:20:52.89
you can't sue
them from money so...
00:20:52.90\00:20:55.40
In this case did they
reverse those polices,
00:20:55.41\00:20:57.27
they gave to rise to
the suit in the first place.
00:20:57.28\00:21:00.25
Is he receiving the
religious materials and so...
00:21:00.26\00:21:03.74
I don't know but
with the prisoners
00:21:03.75\00:21:05.43
they play so many
games they will just move
00:21:05.44\00:21:07.85
them somewhere else
and say the case is moved.
00:21:07.86\00:21:10.05
Look, if you can't
sue for money either
00:21:10.06\00:21:13.68
in the land use
context or the prisoner
00:21:13.69\00:21:15.93
context then the
State has no incentive
00:21:15.94\00:21:18.78
at all to follow the law.
00:21:18.79\00:21:21.56
They just dig
in their heels and,
00:21:21.57\00:21:23.50
you know, they don't care.
00:21:23.51\00:21:25.16
And this is where we are now.
00:21:25.17\00:21:26.36
This is exactly where we are...
00:21:26.37\00:21:28.14
So this is
extremely grave for prisoners'
00:21:28.15\00:21:30.02
rights of religious freedom.
00:21:30.03\00:21:31.20
Earlier we were
talking about the importance
00:21:31.21\00:21:33.84
of people joining
the North American
00:21:33.85\00:21:35.72
Religious Liberty
Association, NARLA,
00:21:35.73\00:21:38.20
and this is
exactly the kind of issue
00:21:38.21\00:21:40.53
we need to introduce legislation
00:21:40.54\00:21:42.90
to clarify the statute,
to provide money damages
00:21:42.91\00:21:47.39
and people who care
about Religious Liberty
00:21:47.40\00:21:49.78
need to be part of an
organization like NARLA,
00:21:49.79\00:21:52.96
so that when we
introduce it or they can
00:21:52.97\00:21:56.33
right there
letters, they can visit
00:21:56.34\00:21:58.06
their congressional
offices and we can fix it.
00:21:58.07\00:22:00.91
It's easy to fix. It
has to go through Congress.
00:22:00.92\00:22:03.85
Congress has to clarify money
00:22:03.86\00:22:06.11
damages for these violations.
Yeah, I think you are right.
00:22:06.12\00:22:09.02
Legislative fixes the
only way this will go...
00:22:09.03\00:22:11.44
Well you can't go, you can't
appeal beyond the Supreme Court
00:22:11.45\00:22:14.64
But they're
interpreting a statute.
00:22:14.65\00:22:16.92
They said the
statute was not sufficiently
00:22:16.93\00:22:20.07
clear in providing money damages
00:22:20.08\00:22:22.31
we can go back
and we do that often
00:22:22.32\00:22:25.51
if the Supreme Court
gets reversed by Congress.
00:22:25.52\00:22:28.13
I think this is
shown you are right.
00:22:28.14\00:22:29.11
There is appeal
beyond the court,
00:22:29.12\00:22:30.22
but I think it's shown
that this is not an aberration.
00:22:30.23\00:22:32.96
I mean this is
the standard dynamic
00:22:32.97\00:22:36.94
and it's not
about to be changed.
00:22:36.95\00:22:38.44
The on-going problem is
pretty much now formalized,
00:22:38.45\00:22:42.29
but I felt for a
long time that even though
00:22:42.30\00:22:46.54
we pay lip service to
the rights of prisoners
00:22:46.55\00:22:50.02
in practice, behind bars,
00:22:50.03\00:22:52.00
it's the luck of the draw
00:22:52.01\00:22:53.33
what you get and I
believe in times of stress.
00:22:53.34\00:22:55.52
Right now if you
are someone accused
00:22:55.53\00:22:58.33
of terrorism what will happen,
00:22:58.34\00:23:00.63
if you're someone
accused of a sex crime
00:23:00.64\00:23:03.73
we know what happens,
the prisoners deal with you.
00:23:03.74\00:23:06.02
And sometimes
you need protecting
00:23:06.03\00:23:09.76
from the other prisoners,
not just from the State.
00:23:09.77\00:23:11.85
So that whole thing
when you have people
00:23:11.86\00:23:14.56
on Conscience issues, we
can say Religious Liberty
00:23:14.57\00:23:17.22
is whole array of
Conscience issues.
00:23:17.23\00:23:19.34
When you know that if
they're put behind bars
00:23:19.35\00:23:21.72
in this country the
American legal system,
00:23:21.73\00:23:24.65
the
constitution that we hold so,
00:23:24.66\00:23:26.30
we all hold so dear
that pretty much evaporates.
00:23:26.31\00:23:30.35
I think that's the reason
to do something about this.
00:23:30.36\00:23:32.44
Well they are somebasic things
00:23:32.45\00:23:35.32
that we are to
provide for our prisoners.
00:23:35.33\00:23:37.55
Number one a
physically safe environment.
00:23:37.56\00:23:41.27
They shouldn't be
put in prison to be,
00:23:41.28\00:23:43.59
you know, beaten up,
tortured, abused whatever.
00:23:43.60\00:23:46.39
It should be
safe and they should
00:23:46.40\00:23:48.68
at least have the
freedom to worship God.
00:23:48.69\00:23:50.94
We take away
many of their rights
00:23:50.95\00:23:54.35
as we should, if
they are in prison.
00:23:54.36\00:23:56.15
But the basic
Liberty of Conscience
00:23:56.16\00:23:59.37
the idea that people
are answerable to God
00:23:59.38\00:24:03.21
if anything we
should be encouraging people
00:24:03.22\00:24:06.58
to develop the
spiritual side of their lives
00:24:06.59\00:24:11.08
because that's how
they can turnaround.
00:24:11.09\00:24:13.54
Eventually most of
the folks we put away,
00:24:13.55\00:24:16.77
guess what they
are coming back out
00:24:16.78\00:24:19.15
to be our neighbors.
00:24:19.16\00:24:20.25
And so, you
know, what do we want.
00:24:20.26\00:24:22.44
We want them to go to
the college of criminal
00:24:22.45\00:24:26.86
achievement and make
the prisons, you know,
00:24:26.87\00:24:29.82
a school of
criminal endeavor or do
00:24:29.83\00:24:32.07
we want them to actually
turn their lives around.
00:24:32.08\00:24:34.47
Absolutely. I think
there is another dynamic.
00:24:34.48\00:24:36.61
It's probably not legal
discussion to put with this,
00:24:36.62\00:24:40.71
but just a present day reality.
00:24:40.72\00:24:42.79
We know that since 911,
00:24:42.80\00:24:44.70
Homeland Security and whole
00:24:44.71\00:24:47.72
society has looked more closely
00:24:47.73\00:24:49.16
what's happening
at the prisoners.
00:24:49.17\00:24:50.44
And we see
recruitment for radical
00:24:50.45\00:24:54.42
form in this case Islam,
that's true, that's right.
00:24:54.43\00:24:57.36
And the prison
system and society
00:24:57.37\00:24:59.76
is starting to look at answers
00:24:59.77\00:25:02.01
of that how we deal with it.
00:25:02.02\00:25:04.07
And I think the
net effect is going
00:25:04.08\00:25:05.93
to be unless you are
part of one of the major
00:25:05.94\00:25:09.09
religious affections in
the United States today,
00:25:09.10\00:25:12.02
they're going to start
restricting all religious
00:25:12.03\00:25:14.70
activity in a prison
outside of that rationalizing
00:25:14.71\00:25:18.41
that this protects
the safety and security
00:25:18.42\00:25:20.12
not only of the
prison but of the country,
00:25:20.13\00:25:21.79
that's not gonna
come to a good end.
00:25:21.80\00:25:23.78
You know, that's
a very interesting
00:25:23.79\00:25:27.40
thought Lincoln and I hadn't,
00:25:27.41\00:25:28.88
I really hadn't given
00:25:28.89\00:25:30.19
consideration
to that previously.
00:25:30.20\00:25:31.48
I have seen it developing
00:25:31.49\00:25:32.46
and I only see
it becoming more so,
00:25:32.47\00:25:35.39
it's not diminishing.
00:25:35.40\00:25:36.39
Well, we know that
outside of the prison
00:25:36.40\00:25:38.76
that the mosques
are very concerned
00:25:38.77\00:25:41.82
about FBI infiltration
and monitoring and restricting
00:25:41.83\00:25:45.76
the religious
freedom because of the
00:25:45.77\00:25:47.55
suspicion of terrorist
activity in the mosques
00:25:47.56\00:25:50.79
and, you know, as someone
who values religious freedom
00:25:50.80\00:25:53.92
I have, you know, mixed feelings
00:25:53.93\00:25:56.10
so I certainly want
the FBI to keep the same.
00:25:56.11\00:25:58.39
Well, it's true. Our
sensibilities are blown
00:25:58.40\00:26:02.05
about by government statements
00:26:02.06\00:26:05.08
because we want to feel secure
00:26:05.09\00:26:06.38
and on one level we
might believe on religious
00:26:06.39\00:26:09.99
and several freedoms but yet
00:26:10.00\00:26:12.20
then we see this
picture of a threat the society
00:26:12.21\00:26:14.53
would easily manipulated,
well we are, and in a prison
00:26:14.54\00:26:17.73
the
vulnerability is even greater.
00:26:17.74\00:26:20.22
Well, look. If
religious freedom means
00:26:20.23\00:26:23.16
anything for any
Americans it has to also mean
00:26:23.17\00:26:26.59
something to the most vulnerable
00:26:26.60\00:26:28.33
and to the most
despised the ones
00:26:28.34\00:26:30.92
we put away in prison.
00:26:30.93\00:26:31.98
This RLUIPA statute is critical,
00:26:31.99\00:26:34.86
and this issue just
shows the importance of people
00:26:34.87\00:26:39.30
stepping up to the
plate, being informed,
00:26:39.31\00:26:41.68
getting involved
in the North American
00:26:41.69\00:26:43.83
Religious Liberty Association
00:26:43.84\00:26:45.40
and doing your part to
protect religious freedom.
00:26:45.41\00:26:48.13
Jesus gave some very
interesting responses
00:26:49.16\00:26:51.80
to the
challenges thrown out at Him
00:26:51.81\00:26:54.13
by the skeptics in his day.
00:26:54.14\00:26:55.76
On one occasion they asked Him
00:26:55.77\00:26:58.00
about a great catastrophe
00:26:58.01\00:26:59.83
that had just taken place.
00:26:59.84\00:27:01.02
He said, in reply
He said those people
00:27:01.03\00:27:04.85
that were killed when
that terror fell on them.
00:27:04.86\00:27:07.51
He said do you
suppose that they will
00:27:07.52\00:27:09.72
worse sinners than anyone else.
00:27:09.73\00:27:11.62
I tell you no.
When we look at those
00:27:11.63\00:27:15.18
who are
imprisoned in our country,
00:27:15.19\00:27:17.36
in our society we
know that many of them
00:27:18.79\00:27:22.08
are what we would call criminals
00:27:22.09\00:27:23.88
for particular criminal acts.
00:27:23.89\00:27:26.00
But before God can
we really say that they
00:27:26.01\00:27:29.46
are less morally
deserving than any
00:27:29.47\00:27:32.57
of it or have fallen short.
00:27:32.58\00:27:33.99
And therefore it
is in our compass
00:27:34.00\00:27:37.87
I think to defend their rights
00:27:37.88\00:27:39.99
and particularly to make
sure that they have access
00:27:40.00\00:27:42.92
to religious services,
00:27:42.93\00:27:45.38
that they have
access to Holy Books
00:27:45.39\00:27:47.78
and to religious instruction.
00:27:47.79\00:27:49.52
We can do no
better work than to defend
00:27:49.53\00:27:53.00
this in any system of law,
00:27:53.01\00:27:55.77
but to defend
those who are under
00:27:55.78\00:27:58.19
the compass of the law,
00:27:58.20\00:27:59.88
under the punishment of the law
00:27:59.89\00:28:01.13
and greatly in need of the help
00:28:01.14\00:28:05.04
that's spiritual
advices can give.
00:28:05.05\00:28:07.71
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:07.72\00:28:10.58