Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Alan Reinach
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000134
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:25 This is the program that brings you discussions, 00:27 news, updates and all around valuable information 00:30 on Religious Liberty issues. 00:32 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:35 And my guest with me on the program is 00:37 Alan Reinach, Attorney Alan Reinach. 00:40 And you are with the Church State Counsel 00:43 over the West of the U.S. 00:45 Alan, I want to talk with you about some interesting things 00:48 that have not just legal ramifications, 00:50 but ramifications for Religious Liberty 00:52 and for people of faith. 00:54 Arizona...Arizona, people gonna think, 00:58 we gonna talk about immigration issues, right? 01:00 We may get to that in another program. 01:02 But there's a concern for state aid for churches 01:07 or an apparent state of churches through 01:09 not to watch your program 01:10 but something that's almost an equivalent. 01:13 Well, it's not an equivalent for more than a decade 01:16 Arizona has had a tax credit system. 01:18 Thirteen years out of it. 01:20 Going back to the late 1990s, and frankly you know 01:23 as a church-state separationist, I was very skeptical 01:27 of this program when it first came in. 01:31 The purpose of it was to help provide funding 01:35 for private and religious schools. 01:38 And at times, something like 80 percent of the money 01:42 has been used to assist tuition at religious schools. 01:46 It's a little bit lowered now, 01:48 I think it's closer to 60 percent. 01:50 Now, do you think that this was setup from the beginning 01:53 with the averting attention of funding or enabling attendance 01:58 at church schools or is this just sort of muffed out 02:01 of the original plan? 02:03 Well look, there's a lot of different motivations 02:07 when it comes to education and education financing. 02:12 There's a general perception which has some merit 02:15 that our public education system is deeply flawed 02:18 and that it needs competition 02:20 and that we ought to provide alternatives 02:25 to public education. 02:27 Now in Arizona, I've been amazed that 02:32 the state authorities that are designed to, 02:37 that are charged with analyzing the fiscal impact have said that 02:41 this tax credit program saves the state money. 02:47 Now of course even if it doesn't save state money that's almost 02:52 immaterial to the real issue that we discuss about it... 02:54 Well, in terms of the church state issues it's immaterial. 02:57 Can we go back? I want to get back further. 02:58 Let's explain how.... 02:59 Let me go back further. All right. 03:02 I'd like our readers to know the basis of two things, 03:05 education, why do we have the education we now....now have? 03:10 And you know why...why are we trying to keep 03:12 church and state separate 03:14 or the funding issues separate, right? 03:17 Is not true, isn't it true that education was once 03:21 solely religious, yes, then even hundreds of years ago, 03:27 then it was the Jones that started educating, 03:29 and it was very late in the piece 03:31 that the state got into education. 03:33 And I think that's created some of the problem 03:35 that many people, so called Religious Right, 03:38 I know in a couple of decades ago. 03:40 They started to try to reverse the trend, 03:42 they were troubled where secular education was taking people, 03:46 they saw that it was training away from values and more toward 03:50 the dictates of the state, 03:51 and they're uncomfortable with it. 03:53 Okay, as far as separation of church and state, 03:56 why is this important? 03:57 I know it's Religious Liberty one on one, 04:00 but we need to explain to our listeners. 04:02 If you want to put this in historical contexts, 04:04 our, not just the industrial revolution but the modern, 04:09 social and economic system depends on universal education. 04:13 And that was something that the state came in 04:16 and brought to us. Right. 04:17 But the Supreme Court as cases began to be presented to it 04:22 concerning things like religion in the schools, 04:24 Bible reading, teaching of the Bible, etc, 04:27 the Supreme Court rightly said, look, 04:31 the public schools are for everybody and they should not 04:35 try to determine that one religion 04:39 should be thought as the truth. 04:41 That the public schools as being public have to be neutral 04:46 and even handed with respect to religion. 04:49 And so, those cases came down in the 60s. 04:52 The interesting thing is, it was not those decisions 04:56 that prompted the explosion of the Christian School Movement. 05:00 The thing that really motivated the Christian School Movement 05:03 was the attack on Bob Jones University. 05:06 And the race issue, when it became apparent, 05:11 that the public schools would be desegregated. Yeah. 05:16 Then there was an explosion of schools 05:19 that were private schools ostensibly 05:22 to re-segregate our education. 05:25 And this is very unfortunate where religious identity 05:28 was used to further, all right, 05:31 to perpetuate really a social and justice. 05:33 But of course Seventh-day Adventist 05:35 have operated the largest worldwide system 05:40 of religious schools in the Protestant world. 05:44 We have been committed to Christian education 05:47 from the beginning. 05:48 Yeah, but I really want to go back to basics, 05:52 because I think it's important here, 05:54 why is the separation of church and state so important? 05:56 And why is it so necessary to applied in the United States? 06:00 You and I know this it is given. Well, let's give you an example. 06:03 I served the Seventh-day Adventist church 06:05 in the western region including the State of Utah. 06:08 So, if you happen to, you know, Salt Lake has become something 06:12 of the back office of Silicon Valley. 06:15 So supposing you are very secular family and you get 06:18 transferred to Salt Lake City, and you put your kids 06:21 in the public school, and lo and behold 06:23 they get indoctrinated into Mormonism. 06:25 And you are a Protestant, Baptist, Adventist, 06:29 you know, whatever you are, secular. 06:31 Do you want the public schools having the freedom 06:35 to indoctrinate your children into a religion 06:38 that you don't describe to? 06:40 And it could be, you know, a more common or more socially 06:45 acceptable religion or not, it doesn't matter. 06:48 It's not the business of the state to make decisions 06:52 about what religion should be taught, 06:55 or what is religious truth? 06:56 In our system, it is fundamentally 06:59 the individual right and the family right to choose 07:04 a religion to teach our faith to our kids. 07:07 And in particularly since education is required, 07:10 unless you can find a private school, 07:11 your child has to go to that public school. 07:14 So, if...if a Muslim family sends their kids to the public 07:19 school, do they want them coming home Christian? 07:21 The Jewish family sends their kids, you know, 07:23 if a Protestant family sends their kids to a public school, 07:27 do they want them coming home Catholic or vise versa, 07:29 because the first battles over religion in public schools 07:33 were prompted by the use of the King James Bible 07:36 and they were riots because the Catholics objected. 07:39 The whole origin of the Catholic Parochial School system 07:42 in America is because the Protestant public schools 07:46 were unhospitable places, 07:50 inhospitable, for Catholic kids. 07:52 Yeah, and of course that itself was an abuse 07:56 of the Constitutional principle. 07:58 It's not always been acted upon as the Constitution says. 08:02 But the Constitution after much discussion by the framers 08:07 sets up requirement that the government not establish 08:11 a religion by funding or avert backing of this idea. 08:15 So, you know, those who attack... 08:17 And you also put your finger on what we believe is the reason 08:19 that came as a natural decision because there is a fragment 08:23 religious identity in the United States, 08:27 even though a great majority might be happy 08:30 with the certain religion pushed on them through a public school 08:33 in an area like Salt Lake City say. 08:35 We know the prejudice against movements historically, 08:38 and Protestants in another area would not like. 08:41 The state to be pushing 08:42 through the school that religion required. 08:44 If the public schools could push religion, 08:47 we would vulcanize. 08:48 And you'd have communities forming 08:50 around religious speakers, absolutely, 08:52 you'd choose your school district based on, there were, 08:55 many people would based on what kind of religion 08:57 was taught in...in the public school. 08:59 So...so it's not only required by the Constitution to keep 09:02 church and state separate, it's very illogical, I mean, 09:05 it's for the public good. Right. 09:07 Mean, the alternative is, we could adapt the system 09:09 like Iran and have, you know, Christian version of Sharia Law 09:14 and have, you know, some common denominator. 09:17 It may come, it may come one day, 09:19 but we'll try to stop it right. 09:21 And we need to legally challenge it, 09:23 all right, so explain then, 09:24 we've given a fair background discussion, 09:28 what really precipitated this thing in Arizona? 09:31 One of the key issues and one of roles of 09:35 the church state counsel is to monitor legislation 09:38 and to protect the independence and the freedom 09:42 of our religious schools. 09:44 Make sure that the government regulations 09:46 don't clip our wings when it comes to how our schools 09:50 carryout our religious message. 09:52 And one of the concerns that we have, 09:55 and why we have opposed for example vouchers 09:58 for so long is that the golden rule has never been repealed. 10:03 The version of the golden rule that is it says, 10:06 he who has the gold makes the rules. 10:09 And we know that if we take government funding directly, 10:13 we're likely to have regulation of the content 10:17 of our curriculum. 10:19 We're likely not to be able to select teachers 10:22 based on their being faithful representatives 10:26 of our religious teachings etc. 10:29 Now Liberty Magazine over the years, 10:30 well, before I became editor, had many, many articles arguing 10:33 against vouchers, it's seems a dangerous policy 10:38 and of course clearly compromises 10:40 the first amendment intention. 10:42 Now the tax credit system in Arizona is actually 10:46 a pretty good compromise, okay, 10:49 from a pure separation standpoint, you know, 10:53 at least from a theoretical standpoint, 10:56 it auto violate the separation of church and state 10:58 because it's a tax benefit that flows to religious schools. 11:03 But it's a nice compromise because it really does not run 11:07 the risk of government regulation of those schools. 11:11 Let me just explain for a minute, how it works? 11:13 Okay, because under tax policy, you cannot get a tax benefit 11:19 if you for example give a contribution 11:22 for the benefit of your own kid, okay. 11:25 So you can't just pay some tuition, 11:29 and for your own child to go to a private or religious school 11:32 and then get a tax credit for that. 11:34 What you do, do, 11:35 is you contribute to a fund, 11:42 our church has setup a separate fund, our scholarship fund. 11:46 It's not tax deductible, it's from your tax, right? 11:49 Okay, you can contribute up to a $1000 per person 11:55 and then to the scholarship fund. 11:58 And the scholarship fund will then allocate 12:00 the moneys to the students. 12:02 You can't allocate it to your own students 12:04 but you can give for somebody else's student. 12:09 And then you'll get a credit on your state taxes 12:14 up to the amount that you pay and stay. 12:16 If you're not....if you're not earning enough to pay a $1000 12:21 in state income tax then you can't get the $1000 credit. 12:25 Now, if you participated in this and if your child goes 12:29 to say a church school, they will automatically be able 12:33 to get the scholarship there on. 12:37 I don't know that it's automatic but as a practical matter.... 12:41 a reasonable expectation, it's not an exception. 12:46 This program has caused a lot of money to flow into 12:52 all of the religious schools, and certainly 12:54 the Adventists and the Catholics having the larger systems 12:57 have benefited tremendously. 12:59 Okay, we'll discuss this after the break. 13:02 So stay with us and we'll be back talking about 13:04 the Arizona schools subsidy case 13:08 that's not vouchers but maybe 13:10 has some of the same issues applied. 13:21 One-hundred years, a long time to do anything 13:25 much less publish a magazine, but this year Liberty, 13:29 the Seventh-day Adventist voice of religious freedom, 13:31 celebrates one hundred years of doing what it does best, 13:35 collecting, analyzing, and reporting the ebb and flow 13:39 of religious expression around the world. 13:41 Issue after issue, Liberty has taken on the tough assignments, 13:45 tracking down threats to religious freedom 13:47 and exposing the work of the devil 13:49 in every corner of the globe. 13:51 Governmental interference, personal attacks, 13:54 corporate assaults, even religious freedom issues 13:57 sequestered within the church community itself 13:59 have been clearly and honestly exposed. 14:02 Liberty exists for one purpose to help God's people maintain 14:06 that all important separation of Church and State, 14:09 while recognizing the dangers inherent in such a struggle. 14:13 During the past century, Liberty has experienced 14:16 challenges of its own, but it remains on the job. 14:19 Thanks to the inspired leadership of a long line of 14:22 dedicated Adventist Editors, three of whom represent 14:25 almost half of the publications existence and the foresight 14:28 of a little woman from New England. 14:31 One hundred years of struggle, 14:33 one hundred years of victories, religious freedom isn't 14:36 just about political machines and cultural prejudices. 14:40 It's about people fighting for the right to serve the God 14:44 they love as their hearts and the Holy Spirit dictate. 14:48 Thanks to the prayers and generous support 14:50 of Seventh-day Adventists everywhere. 14:52 Liberty will continue to accomplish its work of providing 14:55 timely information, spirit filled inspiration, 14:58 and heaven sent encouragement to all who long to live and work 15:03 in a world bound together by the God ordained bonds 15:07 of religious freedom. 15:19 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider 15:21 before the break with guest Alan Reinach. 15:23 I was talking about the Arizona tax credit case 15:27 and hopefully we're explaining this adequately. 15:29 But I do believe that before we go further we maybe 15:32 should talk little bit about what vouchers are because 15:34 this is compared to vouchers. 15:37 And vouchers are been around a long time 15:38 and we argued in Liberty Magazine, 15:41 and of course others too have argued against it that 15:44 it violates the separation of church and state 15:46 and it's direct funding of church schools by the state. 15:50 And I think it's helpful to see why our tax credit system 15:54 is actually an improvement over a voucher system. 15:57 In a voucher system, the state will give a coupon, 16:02 a voucher to a parent. 16:05 The parent can choose any school that has been approved by 16:10 the state to receive these vouchers. 16:13 And that's the key because in order for the school 16:16 to be approved it has to meet the requirements such as 16:19 in...in the existing programs 16:21 it cannot hire only Christian teachers. 16:24 It can't discriminate on the bases of religion. 16:26 This is subject to state laws on discrimination and so on. 16:30 And once that voucher is handed over 16:31 then the money flows directly to the school. 16:33 The parent gives a coupon to the school, 16:35 gives a voucher to the school, the school turns into the state, 16:39 and the money flows directly from the state to the school. 16:42 And one thing we have to understand, 16:44 in this country there has to be accountability 16:48 for the use of public funds. 16:49 So the state has to hold this religious school accountable 16:54 and there's a necessity of regulating the school. 16:59 So in a voucher system, it really transforms 17:03 the private religious school into a public school, 17:06 that's the bottom line. 17:08 We loose the independence of our religious schools 17:12 if we start taking voucher funds. 17:14 Now how does this differ then, this tax credit? 17:17 Okay, the tax credit differs because there is no money 17:21 flowing directly from the state to the religious school. 17:25 And I think the Supreme Court was on the right track 17:28 when it analyzed it at least in one particular. 17:33 In the tax credit system, the parent or any individual 17:38 can give a donation to the scholarship fund. 17:44 And those scholarship funds are then used presumably 17:48 set up for a particular... particular schools 17:52 or particular denominations to assist with 17:55 needy children at those schools. 17:58 And so the money... So as their child, 17:59 when they go there, but not automatic...not necessarily 18:02 right. The Supreme Court when it reviewed the case got it right, 18:06 and said look, this is not about public funds 18:09 going to the religious schools. 18:12 Apparent these are private funds 18:14 just because parents and others are making donations 18:18 to scholarship funds and getting a tax credit for it, 18:21 that doesn't transform those gifts 18:23 into the giving of public funding. 18:26 But a normal donation that would be the money 18:29 that would not be taxed, the donation money 18:32 would not be taxed. 18:34 You'd get a tax deduction for it, 18:37 and here you get a dollar for dollar credit. 18:40 This is a little bit different. 18:41 So look, what the separationist argue is that it's just 18:46 a subterfuge, that the state money goes from the state 18:50 to the donor to the taxpayer, from the taxpayer to the school 18:56 and that there is a straight line 18:57 going directly to the school. 18:59 And it should be analyzed as government funding of religion. 19:03 And there is a logic to that, and that's why I said 19:06 at the outset of the program from a strict separationist 19:11 viewpoint the program is problematic. 19:14 But as a compromise if you will, 19:18 as a practical compromise, 19:20 it doesn't require the same kind of intrusive government 19:25 regulation, an oversight of the schools. 19:28 And what it really is, is the status is big differential 19:32 to someone that's giving to the religious institution, 19:34 right, because the church is a tax free. 19:37 Church donations are, you pay no tax on them. 19:41 So this is really not another university that mindset that 19:45 we've had where we begin. And in terms of education policy. 19:47 I mean, I was surprised honestly, 19:49 I figured that the program would be a fiscal drain on the state 19:54 because and often lot of the kids in the private schools, 19:58 religious schools that are benefiting would be kids 20:01 that are already there and you'd be taking money out 20:04 of public education and moving it to private education. 20:08 But what the Arizona state authorities have been saying 20:12 for years is, but yes, there are, because they are kids 20:16 now moving from public schools to private schools. 20:19 Then they are saving money on the public schools 20:22 and the saving are more than enough 20:24 to offset what's being spent. 20:26 Although the complication that I should throw in, 20:29 this is a state program, this is a state program. 20:33 But aren't most educational taxes at the local level? 20:38 Well, it's matter of faith. 20:39 That out of your...out of your property tax? 20:42 In most states that's how it works, right. 20:45 But in this case income tax is as well. 20:47 Yes, but it's only the part of the funding of the state school? 20:51 Right. State school seems to me is a very local 20:55 from the property taxes, perhaps some state government 20:58 involvement, and then Federal. 20:59 But the Federal government is not the primary.... 21:01 No, Federal government doesn't fund our local public schools. 21:04 No, but there's Federal money that make the way into it. 21:08 For certain kinds of programs. Absolutely yeah. Yeah. 21:10 But I do believe that most people they reduce papers 21:14 and listen to the TV and they get the idea there's 21:16 the Federal government involved in these programs. 21:18 No, this is a completely state program, 21:22 it has been copied in several states, 21:25 I can't give you chapter and verse on which ones 21:28 because you know we work in the West, 21:30 and we've been following this Arizona situation. 21:33 But, it...it's working is the thing, 21:35 it's working very well, it has helped certainly a lot 21:39 of our own Seventh-day Adventist schools and young people. 21:43 If the biggest flaw frankly in the program is that 21:48 it does tend to make the school systems, 21:51 the private schools systems become dependent 21:54 upon these income streams. 21:56 And if policy shifted, and the program was terminated 22:01 that would have a devastating impact on the schools. 22:04 And this is something that in our own Adventist church 22:07 policies have always said, we should avoid becoming 22:10 dependent upon any sort of public funding. 22:13 But still it would be difficult to say, 22:16 don't take advantage of government's own stated policy. 22:20 So as long as the policy is there, 22:22 there's nothing immoral or inherently, you know, 22:26 a moral taint to participate in this. 22:29 And this is what I think the Liberty Magazine, 22:31 we sometimes not able to say, because we're dealing with 22:34 Constitution and historic arguments. 22:36 But the Seventh-day Adventist know themselves now 22:39 and I hope our department, 22:40 Religious Liberty has explained to them. 22:42 It's not wrong, it's no great moral wrong 22:46 for as Ellen White once said. pioneer, leader of Adventist, 22:50 she says, you know, God still moves upon 22:52 kings and princess to give money. Right, right. 22:55 So the money is not, it's not tainted money. 22:57 It may compromise you and that's where we are concerned 23:00 with this whole dynamic. 23:03 We don't want to be compromised where the state either 23:05 is then able to exert some control 23:07 or that we are comprised by you, the nipple of the....right. 23:13 I'm going to mix a metaphor like...like most preachers, 23:16 I was going to say, the nipple of the public purse. 23:19 Well, I think a lot of can be that way, 23:22 Seventh-day Adventist have historically being champions 23:25 of the separation of church and state. 23:26 And we have been battling against provocate 23:30 it for so long, but many church members 23:32 are confused because our policies are actually quite 23:37 pragmatic and we want to protect the freedom 23:40 of our schools to be Christian schools. 23:44 But we've always said following the counsel of Ellen White, 23:49 that if there are funding schemes that are legal 23:53 and that do not make us become overly dependent 23:56 on public funding that it's perfectly okay 24:00 to participate in. 24:01 Absolutely, and that's what I was trying to get you to say. 24:04 You mentioned the Supreme Court before, 24:06 this is....this case came before... 24:07 This case went through the Supreme Court earlier this year. 24:09 And we know from their discussion, 24:11 but how did they disposed this? 24:13 Well, there's actually there's a dark side to their decision, 24:15 they didn't get to the merits of the case, 24:17 they didn't say the tax credit program is okay, 24:20 or it's not okay, what they said is, 24:23 that the tax payers who file the challenge have no right. 24:27 The legal term is standing, they have no right, 24:29 no standing to come into the court 24:31 and challenge the program, because it doesn't involve 24:36 the use of taxpayer funding. 24:37 And I read the transcript one point, 24:39 I know Justice Kagan just sniffed it that, 24:42 she thought that was... that was ridiculous. 24:44 Well, it's very disappointing that they didn't get to that. 24:47 Now, she was a little negative on this, 24:49 but what I think she recognized is a couple of times lately 24:53 the Supreme Court have used that as the couplet on the challenge 24:57 to the faith based initiative, same thing no standing. 24:59 And I have a fear that this is gonna be a standard argument 25:03 on religious cases to just to take if off the table. 25:06 And the government is free to proceed on whatever. 25:09 There's an ancient legal principle, 25:12 that there is no right without a remedy, 25:15 there's no right without a remedy. 25:17 The Supreme Court is increasingly saying that 25:21 there's no remedy for violations of the establishment clause 25:26 for violations of the separation of church and state. 25:29 If there is no remedy, if you can't go into court, 25:31 and have the court decide on the merits 25:34 the substance of the claim. 25:36 Then the establishment clause for all intense 25:38 and purposes doesn't exist. Okay. 25:40 And that's very problematic. 25:42 And it seems to me we're all taxpayers are the sponsors 25:46 of the government it's acting on our behalf. 25:48 So to say, that just because it doesn't concern me particularly 25:52 as this particular taxpayer but another taxpayer issue 25:55 is to dodge the issue of the government. 25:57 You know, there's an awful lot of cases, 26:00 that involve the establishment clause, 26:02 and some of them like challenges to under God in the pledge, 26:05 we may think that these are silly. 26:08 But we still want the courts to be able to decide 26:12 on the merits, thumbs up, thumbs down. 26:15 What does the establishment clause mean, 26:17 how much religion is appropriate in public life 26:21 and where religion, where the state needs 26:24 to be even handed and neutral with respect to religion. 26:28 It's very important that we have a vigorous 26:30 establishment clause, and that the court provide guidance. 26:33 What the Supreme Court is doing and saying, 26:36 essentially the establishment clause is irrelevant, 26:39 we are undermining it, and we won't get 26:42 to the merits of these cases. 26:43 And so we're left with decreasing vitality 26:48 to the wall of separation. 26:51 There's an old saying about the hand that rocks 26:54 the cradle determining the direction of the nation. 26:57 It's no accident that education policy 27:00 is so vigorously debated because that's determining 27:04 the future of society. 27:06 When we talk about church state issues and education, 27:10 we must concern usually to ensure that the state doesn't 27:14 dictate or control religious instruction the young people. 27:19 For a long time an undercover way of subverting 27:23 a separation of church and state and education 27:26 has been through introduce something like vouchers 27:29 or a subterfuge whereby government money can be passed 27:32 through church school but not so obvious 27:35 that is seen as direct funding. 27:38 Vouchers have been one way to do this, 27:42 a tax deduction is another, but whatever the mechanism, 27:46 we must realize that the principle is what 27:48 we are arguing with that. 27:49 We do not want the government controlling education. 27:52 We do want religious instruction to be under the hand 27:56 of the cradle if you like in the home. 27:59 We do want religious values, but we do not want need 28:03 or can't risk the state being the one imparting them. 28:08 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17