Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
that brings you discussions,
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news, updates and all
around valuable information
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on Religious Liberty issues.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest with
me on the program is
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Alan Reinach,
Attorney Alan Reinach.
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And you are with
the Church State Counsel
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over the West of the U.S.
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Alan, I want to talk with you
about some interesting things
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that have not just
legal ramifications,
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but ramifications
for Religious Liberty
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and for people of faith.
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Arizona...Arizona,
people gonna think,
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we gonna talk about
immigration issues, right?
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We may get to that
in another program.
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But there's a concern
for state aid for churches
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or an apparent
state of churches through
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not to watch your program
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but something that's
almost an equivalent.
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Well, it's not an equivalent
for more than a decade
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Arizona has had a
tax credit system.
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Thirteen years out of it.
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Going back to the late
1990s, and frankly you know
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as a church-state separationist,
I was very skeptical
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of this program
when it first came in.
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The purpose of it was
to help provide funding
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for private and
religious schools.
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And at times, something
like 80 percent of the money
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has been used to assist
tuition at religious schools.
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It's a little bit lowered now,
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I think it's
closer to 60 percent.
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Now, do you think that this
was setup from the beginning
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with the averting attention of
funding or enabling attendance
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at church schools or is
this just sort of muffed out
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of the original plan?
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Well look, there's a
lot of different motivations
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when it comes to education
and education financing.
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There's a general
perception which has some merit
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that our public education
system is deeply flawed
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and that it needs competition
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and that we ought
to provide alternatives
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to public education.
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Now in Arizona,
I've been amazed that
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the state authorities
that are designed to,
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that are charged with analyzing
the fiscal impact have said that
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this tax credit
program saves the state money.
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Now of course even if it doesn't
save state money that's almost
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immaterial to the real issue
that we discuss about it...
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Well, in terms of the church
state issues it's immaterial.
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Can we go back? I
want to get back further.
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Let's explain how....
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Let me go back
further. All right.
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I'd like our readers to
know the basis of two things,
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education, why do we have the
education we now....now have?
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And you know
why...why are we trying to keep
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church and state separate
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or the funding
issues separate, right?
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Is not true, isn't it
true that education was once
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solely religious, yes,
then even hundreds of years ago,
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then it was the Jones
that started educating,
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and it was very
late in the piece
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that the state
got into education.
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And I think that's
created some of the problem
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that many people, so
called Religious Right,
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I know in a
couple of decades ago.
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They started to try
to reverse the trend,
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they were troubled where secular
education was taking people,
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they saw that it was training
away from values and more toward
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the dictates of the state,
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and they're
uncomfortable with it.
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Okay, as far as
separation of church and state,
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why is this important?
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I know it's
Religious Liberty one on one,
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but we need to
explain to our listeners.
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If you want to put
this in historical contexts,
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our, not just the industrial
revolution but the modern,
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social and economic system
depends on universal education.
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And that was
something that the state came in
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and brought to us. Right.
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But the Supreme Court as cases
began to be presented to it
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concerning things like
religion in the schools,
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Bible reading,
teaching of the Bible, etc,
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the Supreme Court
rightly said, look,
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the public schools are for
everybody and they should not
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try to determine
that one religion
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should be thought as the truth.
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That the public schools as
being public have to be neutral
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and even handed
with respect to religion.
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And so, those cases
came down in the 60s.
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The interesting thing is,
it was not those decisions
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that prompted the explosion of
the Christian School Movement.
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The thing that really motivated
the Christian School Movement
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was the attack on
Bob Jones University.
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And the race issue,
when it became apparent,
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that the public schools
would be desegregated. Yeah.
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Then there was an
explosion of schools
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that were private
schools ostensibly
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to re-segregate our education.
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And this is very unfortunate
where religious identity
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was used to further, all right,
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to perpetuate really
a social and justice.
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But of course
Seventh-day Adventist
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have operated the
largest worldwide system
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of religious schools
in the Protestant world.
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We have been
committed to Christian education
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from the beginning.
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Yeah, but I really
want to go back to basics,
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because I think
it's important here,
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why is the separation of
church and state so important?
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And why is it so necessary
to applied in the United States?
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You and I know this it is given.
Well, let's give you an example.
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I served the
Seventh-day Adventist church
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in the western region
including the State of Utah.
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So, if you happen to, you know,
Salt Lake has become something
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of the back
office of Silicon Valley.
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So supposing you are very
secular family and you get
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transferred to Salt Lake
City, and you put your kids
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in the public
school, and lo and behold
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they get
indoctrinated into Mormonism.
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And you are a
Protestant, Baptist, Adventist,
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you know,
whatever you are, secular.
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Do you want the public
schools having the freedom
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to indoctrinate your
children into a religion
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that you don't describe to?
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And it could be, you know,
a more common or more socially
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acceptable religion or
not, it doesn't matter.
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It's not the business of
the state to make decisions
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about what
religion should be taught,
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or what is religious truth?
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In our system,
it is fundamentally
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the individual right and
the family right to choose
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a religion to teach
our faith to our kids.
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And in particularly
since education is required,
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unless you can
find a private school,
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your child has to go
to that public school.
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So, if...if a Muslim family
sends their kids to the public
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school, do they want
them coming home Christian?
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The Jewish family
sends their kids, you know,
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if a Protestant family sends
their kids to a public school,
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do they want them coming
home Catholic or vise versa,
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because the first battles
over religion in public schools
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were prompted by the
use of the King James Bible
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and they were riots
because the Catholics objected.
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The whole origin of the
Catholic Parochial School system
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in America is because
the Protestant public schools
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were unhospitable places,
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inhospitable, for Catholic kids.
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Yeah, and of course
that itself was an abuse
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of the Constitutional principle.
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It's not always been acted
upon as the Constitution says.
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But the Constitution after
much discussion by the framers
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sets up requirement that
the government not establish
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a religion by funding or
avert backing of this idea.
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So, you know,
those who attack...
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And you also put your finger
on what we believe is the reason
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that came as a natural decision
because there is a fragment
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religious identity
in the United States,
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even though a great
majority might be happy
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with the certain religion pushed
on them through a public school
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in an area like
Salt Lake City say.
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We know the prejudice
against movements historically,
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and Protestants in
another area would not like.
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The state to be pushing
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through the school
that religion required.
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If the public
schools could push religion,
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we would vulcanize.
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And you'd have
communities forming
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around religious
speakers, absolutely,
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you'd choose your school
district based on, there were,
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many people would based
on what kind of religion
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was taught
in...in the public school.
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So...so it's not only required
by the Constitution to keep
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church and state separate,
it's very illogical, I mean,
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it's for the public good. Right.
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Mean, the alternative
is, we could adapt the system
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like Iran and have, you know,
Christian version of Sharia Law
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and have, you know,
some common denominator.
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It may come, it
may come one day,
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but we'll try to stop it right.
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And we need to
legally challenge it,
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all right, so explain then,
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we've given a fair
background discussion,
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what really precipitated
this thing in Arizona?
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One of the key
issues and one of roles of
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the church state counsel
is to monitor legislation
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and to protect the
independence and the freedom
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of our religious schools.
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Make sure that the
government regulations
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don't clip our wings when
it comes to how our schools
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carryout our religious message.
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And one of the
concerns that we have,
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and why we have
opposed for example vouchers
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for so long is that the golden
rule has never been repealed.
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The version of the
golden rule that is it says,
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he who has the
gold makes the rules.
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And we know that if we take
government funding directly,
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we're likely to have
regulation of the content
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of our curriculum.
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We're likely not to be
able to select teachers
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based on their being
faithful representatives
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of our religious teachings etc.
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Now Liberty
Magazine over the years,
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well, before I became editor,
had many, many articles arguing
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against vouchers, it's
seems a dangerous policy
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and of course
clearly compromises
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the first amendment intention.
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Now the tax credit
system in Arizona is actually
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a pretty good compromise, okay,
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from a pure
separation standpoint, you know,
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at least from a
theoretical standpoint,
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it auto violate the
separation of church and state
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because it's a tax benefit
that flows to religious schools.
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But it's a nice compromise
because it really does not run
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the risk of government
regulation of those schools.
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Let me just explain
for a minute, how it works?
00:11:11.21\00:11:13.85
Okay, because under tax policy,
you cannot get a tax benefit
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if you for example
give a contribution
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for the benefit of
your own kid, okay.
00:11:22.59\00:11:25.36
So you can't
just pay some tuition,
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and for your own child to go
to a private or religious school
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and then get a
tax credit for that.
00:11:32.65\00:11:34.63
What you do, do,
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is you contribute to a fund,
00:11:35.62\00:11:41.48
our church has setup a separate
fund, our scholarship fund.
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It's not tax deductible,
it's from your tax, right?
00:11:46.46\00:11:49.17
Okay, you can contribute
up to a $1000 per person
00:11:49.18\00:11:55.01
and then to the
scholarship fund.
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And the scholarship
fund will then allocate
00:11:58.06\00:12:00.30
the moneys to the students.
00:12:00.31\00:12:02.73
You can't allocate
it to your own students
00:12:02.74\00:12:04.74
but you can give for
somebody else's student.
00:12:04.75\00:12:09.30
And then you'll get a
credit on your state taxes
00:12:09.31\00:12:14.25
up to the amount
that you pay and stay.
00:12:14.26\00:12:16.62
If you're not....if you're not
earning enough to pay a $1000
00:12:16.63\00:12:21.01
in state income tax then
you can't get the $1000 credit.
00:12:21.02\00:12:25.23
Now, if you participated
in this and if your child goes
00:12:25.24\00:12:29.17
to say a church school,
they will automatically be able
00:12:29.18\00:12:33.81
to get the scholarship there on.
00:12:33.82\00:12:35.69
I don't know that it's automatic
but as a practical matter....
00:12:37.81\00:12:41.44
a reasonable expectation,
it's not an exception.
00:12:41.45\00:12:44.76
This program has caused
a lot of money to flow into
00:12:46.33\00:12:52.20
all of the religious
schools, and certainly
00:12:52.21\00:12:54.42
the Adventists and the Catholics
having the larger systems
00:12:54.43\00:12:57.60
have benefited tremendously.
00:12:57.61\00:12:59.54
Okay, we'll discuss
this after the break.
00:12:59.55\00:13:02.10
So stay with us and
we'll be back talking about
00:13:02.11\00:13:04.28
the Arizona schools subsidy case
00:13:04.29\00:13:08.04
that's not vouchers but maybe
00:13:08.05\00:13:10.32
has some of the
same issues applied.
00:13:10.33\00:13:12.45
One-hundred years, a
long time to do anything
00:13:21.39\00:13:25.30
much less publish a
magazine, but this year Liberty,
00:13:25.31\00:13:29.18
the Seventh-day Adventist
voice of religious freedom,
00:13:29.19\00:13:31.91
celebrates one hundred years
of doing what it does best,
00:13:31.92\00:13:35.56
collecting, analyzing,
and reporting the ebb and flow
00:13:35.57\00:13:39.16
of religious
expression around the world.
00:13:39.17\00:13:41.68
Issue after issue, Liberty has
taken on the tough assignments,
00:13:41.69\00:13:45.88
tracking down
threats to religious freedom
00:13:45.89\00:13:47.86
and exposing the
work of the devil
00:13:47.87\00:13:49.47
in every corner of the globe.
00:13:49.48\00:13:51.68
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:51.69\00:13:54.10
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom issues
00:13:54.11\00:13:57.21
sequestered within the
church community itself
00:13:57.22\00:13:59.49
have been clearly
and honestly exposed.
00:13:59.50\00:14:02.51
Liberty exists for one purpose
to help God's people maintain
00:14:02.52\00:14:06.73
that all important
separation of Church and State,
00:14:06.74\00:14:09.72
while recognizing the dangers
inherent in such a struggle.
00:14:09.73\00:14:13.84
During the past
century, Liberty has experienced
00:14:13.85\00:14:16.42
challenges of its own,
but it remains on the job.
00:14:16.43\00:14:19.95
Thanks to the inspired
leadership of a long line of
00:14:19.96\00:14:22.74
dedicated Adventist
Editors, three of whom represent
00:14:22.75\00:14:25.20
almost half of the publications
existence and the foresight
00:14:25.21\00:14:28.73
of a little
woman from New England.
00:14:28.74\00:14:31.10
One hundred years of struggle,
00:14:31.11\00:14:33.16
one hundred years of victories,
religious freedom isn't
00:14:33.17\00:14:36.57
just about political machines
and cultural prejudices.
00:14:36.58\00:14:40.14
It's about people fighting
for the right to serve the God
00:14:40.15\00:14:44.18
they love as their hearts
and the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:44.19\00:14:48.44
Thanks to the
prayers and generous support
00:14:48.45\00:14:50.52
of Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere.
00:14:50.53\00:14:52.81
Liberty will continue to
accomplish its work of providing
00:14:52.82\00:14:55.89
timely information,
spirit filled inspiration,
00:14:55.90\00:14:58.58
and heaven sent encouragement
to all who long to live and work
00:14:58.59\00:15:03.18
in a world bound together
by the God ordained bonds
00:15:03.19\00:15:07.20
of religious freedom.
00:15:07.21\00:15:09.15
Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider
00:15:19.49\00:15:21.10
before the break
with guest Alan Reinach.
00:15:21.11\00:15:23.30
I was talking about
the Arizona tax credit case
00:15:23.31\00:15:27.30
and hopefully we're
explaining this adequately.
00:15:27.31\00:15:29.14
But I do believe that
before we go further we maybe
00:15:29.15\00:15:32.47
should talk little bit
about what vouchers are because
00:15:32.48\00:15:34.65
this is compared to vouchers.
00:15:34.66\00:15:36.98
And vouchers are
been around a long time
00:15:36.99\00:15:38.49
and we argued in
Liberty Magazine,
00:15:38.50\00:15:41.32
and of course others too
have argued against it that
00:15:41.33\00:15:44.46
it violates the
separation of church and state
00:15:44.47\00:15:46.16
and it's direct funding of
church schools by the state.
00:15:46.17\00:15:50.87
And I think it's helpful to
see why our tax credit system
00:15:50.88\00:15:54.53
is actually an improvement
over a voucher system.
00:15:54.54\00:15:57.89
In a voucher system, the
state will give a coupon,
00:15:57.90\00:16:02.48
a voucher to a parent.
00:16:02.49\00:16:05.60
The parent can choose any
school that has been approved by
00:16:05.61\00:16:10.76
the state to
receive these vouchers.
00:16:10.77\00:16:13.21
And that's the key
because in order for the school
00:16:13.22\00:16:16.31
to be approved it has to
meet the requirements such as
00:16:16.32\00:16:19.52
in...in the existing programs
00:16:19.53\00:16:21.61
it cannot hire
only Christian teachers.
00:16:21.62\00:16:24.58
It can't discriminate
on the bases of religion.
00:16:24.59\00:16:26.20
This is subject to state laws
on discrimination and so on.
00:16:26.21\00:16:29.99
And once that
voucher is handed over
00:16:30.00\00:16:31.82
then the money flows
directly to the school.
00:16:31.83\00:16:33.75
The parent gives a
coupon to the school,
00:16:33.76\00:16:35.95
gives a voucher to the school,
the school turns into the state,
00:16:35.96\00:16:38.99
and the money flows directly
from the state to the school.
00:16:39.00\00:16:42.50
And one thing we
have to understand,
00:16:42.51\00:16:44.29
in this country there
has to be accountability
00:16:44.30\00:16:48.03
for the use of public funds.
00:16:48.04\00:16:49.85
So the state has to hold this
religious school accountable
00:16:49.86\00:16:54.29
and there's a necessity
of regulating the school.
00:16:54.30\00:16:59.12
So in a voucher
system, it really transforms
00:16:59.13\00:17:03.00
the private religious
school into a public school,
00:17:03.01\00:17:06.57
that's the bottom line.
00:17:06.58\00:17:08.65
We loose the independence
of our religious schools
00:17:08.66\00:17:12.18
if we start
taking voucher funds.
00:17:12.19\00:17:14.57
Now how does this
differ then, this tax credit?
00:17:14.58\00:17:17.13
Okay, the tax credit differs
because there is no money
00:17:17.14\00:17:21.56
flowing directly from the
state to the religious school.
00:17:21.57\00:17:25.87
And I think the Supreme
Court was on the right track
00:17:25.88\00:17:28.96
when it analyzed it at
least in one particular.
00:17:28.97\00:17:33.38
In the tax credit system,
the parent or any individual
00:17:33.39\00:17:38.61
can give a donation
to the scholarship fund.
00:17:38.62\00:17:44.42
And those scholarship
funds are then used presumably
00:17:44.43\00:17:48.66
set up for a
particular... particular schools
00:17:48.67\00:17:52.12
or particular
denominations to assist with
00:17:52.13\00:17:55.23
needy children at those schools.
00:17:55.24\00:17:58.17
And so the
money... So as their child,
00:17:58.18\00:17:59.22
when they go there, but
not automatic...not necessarily
00:17:59.23\00:18:02.36
right. The Supreme Court when it
reviewed the case got it right,
00:18:02.37\00:18:06.39
and said look, this
is not about public funds
00:18:06.40\00:18:09.73
going to the religious schools.
00:18:09.74\00:18:12.41
Apparent these are private funds
00:18:12.42\00:18:14.59
just because parents and
others are making donations
00:18:14.60\00:18:17.99
to scholarship funds and
getting a tax credit for it,
00:18:18.00\00:18:21.30
that doesn't
transform those gifts
00:18:21.31\00:18:23.96
into the giving
of public funding.
00:18:23.97\00:18:26.21
But a normal donation
that would be the money
00:18:26.22\00:18:29.95
that would not be
taxed, the donation money
00:18:29.96\00:18:32.53
would not be taxed.
00:18:32.54\00:18:34.51
You'd get a tax
deduction for it,
00:18:34.52\00:18:37.87
and here you get a
dollar for dollar credit.
00:18:37.88\00:18:40.12
This is a little bit different.
00:18:40.13\00:18:41.25
So look, what the separationist
argue is that it's just
00:18:41.26\00:18:45.99
a subterfuge, that the
state money goes from the state
00:18:46.00\00:18:50.56
to the donor to the taxpayer,
from the taxpayer to the school
00:18:50.57\00:18:56.01
and that there
is a straight line
00:18:56.02\00:18:57.48
going directly to the school.
00:18:57.49\00:18:59.31
And it should be analyzed as
government funding of religion.
00:18:59.32\00:19:03.38
And there is a logic to
that, and that's why I said
00:19:03.39\00:19:06.71
at the outset of the program
from a strict separationist
00:19:06.72\00:19:11.46
viewpoint the
program is problematic.
00:19:11.47\00:19:14.63
But as a compromise if you will,
00:19:14.64\00:19:17.21
as a practical compromise,
00:19:18.53\00:19:20.80
it doesn't require the same
kind of intrusive government
00:19:20.81\00:19:25.18
regulation, an
oversight of the schools.
00:19:25.19\00:19:28.36
And what it really is, is
the status is big differential
00:19:28.37\00:19:32.69
to someone that's giving
to the religious institution,
00:19:32.70\00:19:34.86
right, because the
church is a tax free.
00:19:34.87\00:19:37.94
Church donations are,
you pay no tax on them.
00:19:37.95\00:19:41.82
So this is really not another
university that mindset that
00:19:41.83\00:19:45.01
we've had where we begin. And
in terms of education policy.
00:19:45.02\00:19:47.66
I mean, I was
surprised honestly,
00:19:47.67\00:19:49.91
I figured that the program would
be a fiscal drain on the state
00:19:49.92\00:19:54.67
because and often lot of
the kids in the private schools,
00:19:54.68\00:19:58.85
religious schools that
are benefiting would be kids
00:19:58.86\00:20:01.34
that are already there
and you'd be taking money out
00:20:01.35\00:20:04.77
of public education and
moving it to private education.
00:20:04.78\00:20:08.60
But what the Arizona state
authorities have been saying
00:20:08.61\00:20:12.22
for years is, but yes,
there are, because they are kids
00:20:12.23\00:20:15.99
now moving from public
schools to private schools.
00:20:16.00\00:20:19.76
Then they are saving
money on the public schools
00:20:19.77\00:20:22.41
and the saving
are more than enough
00:20:22.42\00:20:24.47
to offset what's being spent.
00:20:24.48\00:20:26.68
Although the complication
that I should throw in,
00:20:26.69\00:20:29.82
this is a state program,
this is a state program.
00:20:29.83\00:20:33.41
But aren't most educational
taxes at the local level?
00:20:33.42\00:20:38.40
Well, it's matter of faith.
00:20:38.41\00:20:39.62
That out of
your...out of your property tax?
00:20:39.63\00:20:42.46
In most states
that's how it works, right.
00:20:42.47\00:20:45.46
But in this case
income tax is as well.
00:20:45.47\00:20:47.90
Yes, but it's only the part of
the funding of the state school?
00:20:47.91\00:20:51.22
Right. State school
seems to me is a very local
00:20:51.23\00:20:55.18
from the property taxes,
perhaps some state government
00:20:55.19\00:20:58.29
involvement, and then Federal.
00:20:58.30\00:20:59.58
But the Federal government
is not the primary....
00:20:59.59\00:21:01.02
No, Federal government doesn't
fund our local public schools.
00:21:01.03\00:21:04.00
No, but there's Federal
money that make the way into it.
00:21:04.01\00:21:06.95
For certain kinds of
programs. Absolutely yeah. Yeah.
00:21:08.04\00:21:10.62
But I do believe that
most people they reduce papers
00:21:10.63\00:21:14.17
and listen to the TV and
they get the idea there's
00:21:14.18\00:21:16.65
the Federal government
involved in these programs.
00:21:16.66\00:21:18.59
No, this is a
completely state program,
00:21:18.60\00:21:22.35
it has been
copied in several states,
00:21:22.36\00:21:25.36
I can't give you
chapter and verse on which ones
00:21:25.37\00:21:28.10
because you know
we work in the West,
00:21:28.11\00:21:30.54
and we've been following
this Arizona situation.
00:21:30.55\00:21:33.01
But, it...it's
working is the thing,
00:21:33.02\00:21:35.80
it's working very well,
it has helped certainly a lot
00:21:35.81\00:21:39.38
of our own Seventh-day Adventist
schools and young people.
00:21:39.39\00:21:43.68
If the biggest flaw
frankly in the program is that
00:21:43.69\00:21:48.45
it does tend to
make the school systems,
00:21:48.46\00:21:51.86
the private schools
systems become dependent
00:21:51.87\00:21:54.88
upon these income streams.
00:21:54.89\00:21:56.69
And if policy shifted,
and the program was terminated
00:21:56.70\00:22:00.98
that would have a devastating
impact on the schools.
00:22:00.99\00:22:04.68
And this is something that
in our own Adventist church
00:22:04.69\00:22:07.04
policies have always
said, we should avoid becoming
00:22:07.05\00:22:10.66
dependent upon any
sort of public funding.
00:22:10.67\00:22:13.72
But still it would
be difficult to say,
00:22:13.73\00:22:16.70
don't take advantage of
government's own stated policy.
00:22:16.71\00:22:20.71
So as long as
the policy is there,
00:22:20.72\00:22:21.98
there's nothing immoral
or inherently, you know,
00:22:21.99\00:22:26.37
a moral taint to
participate in this.
00:22:26.38\00:22:29.45
And this is what I
think the Liberty Magazine,
00:22:29.46\00:22:31.88
we sometimes not able to
say, because we're dealing with
00:22:31.89\00:22:34.26
Constitution and
historic arguments.
00:22:34.27\00:22:36.46
But the Seventh-day
Adventist know themselves now
00:22:36.47\00:22:39.32
and I hope our department,
00:22:39.33\00:22:40.69
Religious Liberty
has explained to them.
00:22:40.70\00:22:42.53
It's not wrong,
it's no great moral wrong
00:22:42.54\00:22:46.36
for as Ellen White once said.
pioneer, leader of Adventist,
00:22:46.37\00:22:50.13
she says, you know,
God still moves upon
00:22:50.14\00:22:52.29
kings and princess to
give money. Right, right.
00:22:52.30\00:22:55.10
So the money is not,
it's not tainted money.
00:22:55.11\00:22:57.13
It may compromise you and
that's where we are concerned
00:22:57.14\00:23:00.88
with this whole dynamic.
00:23:00.89\00:23:03.13
We don't want to be compromised
where the state either
00:23:03.14\00:23:05.64
is then able to
exert some control
00:23:05.65\00:23:07.57
or that we are comprised by
you, the nipple of the....right.
00:23:07.58\00:23:13.42
I'm going to mix a metaphor
like...like most preachers,
00:23:13.43\00:23:16.30
I was going to say, the
nipple of the public purse.
00:23:16.31\00:23:18.19
Well, I think a
lot of can be that way,
00:23:19.39\00:23:22.30
Seventh-day Adventist have
historically being champions
00:23:22.31\00:23:25.17
of the separation
of church and state.
00:23:25.18\00:23:26.94
And we have been
battling against provocate
00:23:26.95\00:23:30.56
it for so long,
but many church members
00:23:30.57\00:23:32.91
are confused because our
policies are actually quite
00:23:32.92\00:23:37.63
pragmatic and we want
to protect the freedom
00:23:37.64\00:23:40.61
of our schools to
be Christian schools.
00:23:40.62\00:23:44.39
But we've always said following
the counsel of Ellen White,
00:23:44.40\00:23:49.06
that if there are
funding schemes that are legal
00:23:49.07\00:23:53.10
and that do not make
us become overly dependent
00:23:53.11\00:23:56.51
on public funding
that it's perfectly okay
00:23:56.52\00:24:00.69
to participate in.
00:24:00.70\00:24:01.67
Absolutely, and that's what
I was trying to get you to say.
00:24:01.68\00:24:04.69
You mentioned the
Supreme Court before,
00:24:04.70\00:24:06.34
this is....this
case came before...
00:24:06.35\00:24:07.32
This case went through the
Supreme Court earlier this year.
00:24:07.33\00:24:09.90
And we know from
their discussion,
00:24:09.91\00:24:11.45
but how did they disposed this?
00:24:11.46\00:24:13.16
Well, there's actually there's
a dark side to their decision,
00:24:13.17\00:24:15.88
they didn't get to
the merits of the case,
00:24:15.89\00:24:17.94
they didn't say the
tax credit program is okay,
00:24:17.95\00:24:20.78
or it's not okay,
what they said is,
00:24:20.79\00:24:23.04
that the tax payers who file
the challenge have no right.
00:24:23.05\00:24:27.16
The legal term is
standing, they have no right,
00:24:27.17\00:24:29.95
no standing to
come into the court
00:24:29.96\00:24:31.82
and challenge the program,
because it doesn't involve
00:24:31.83\00:24:36.02
the use of taxpayer funding.
00:24:36.03\00:24:37.82
And I read the
transcript one point,
00:24:37.83\00:24:39.71
I know Justice Kagan
just sniffed it that,
00:24:39.72\00:24:42.16
she thought that
was... that was ridiculous.
00:24:42.17\00:24:44.39
Well, it's very disappointing
that they didn't get to that.
00:24:44.40\00:24:47.59
Now, she was a
little negative on this,
00:24:47.60\00:24:49.11
but what I think she recognized
is a couple of times lately
00:24:49.12\00:24:53.53
the Supreme Court have used that
as the couplet on the challenge
00:24:53.54\00:24:57.09
to the faith based initiative,
same thing no standing.
00:24:57.10\00:24:59.95
And I have a fear that this
is gonna be a standard argument
00:24:59.96\00:25:03.27
on religious cases to
just to take if off the table.
00:25:03.28\00:25:06.66
And the government is
free to proceed on whatever.
00:25:06.67\00:25:09.31
There's an
ancient legal principle,
00:25:09.32\00:25:12.31
that there is no
right without a remedy,
00:25:12.32\00:25:15.43
there's no right
without a remedy.
00:25:15.44\00:25:17.76
The Supreme Court is
increasingly saying that
00:25:17.77\00:25:21.07
there's no remedy for violations
of the establishment clause
00:25:21.08\00:25:25.98
for violations of the
separation of church and state.
00:25:25.99\00:25:29.02
If there is no remedy,
if you can't go into court,
00:25:29.03\00:25:31.85
and have the court
decide on the merits
00:25:31.86\00:25:34.51
the substance of the claim.
00:25:34.52\00:25:36.59
Then the establishment
clause for all intense
00:25:36.60\00:25:38.62
and purposes
doesn't exist. Okay.
00:25:38.63\00:25:40.39
And that's very problematic.
00:25:40.40\00:25:42.23
And it seems to me we're
all taxpayers are the sponsors
00:25:42.24\00:25:46.52
of the government
it's acting on our behalf.
00:25:46.53\00:25:48.57
So to say, that just because it
doesn't concern me particularly
00:25:48.58\00:25:52.67
as this particular taxpayer
but another taxpayer issue
00:25:52.68\00:25:55.54
is to dodge the
issue of the government.
00:25:55.55\00:25:57.58
You know, there's
an awful lot of cases,
00:25:57.59\00:26:00.53
that involve the
establishment clause,
00:26:00.54\00:26:02.64
and some of them like challenges
to under God in the pledge,
00:26:02.65\00:26:05.86
we may think
that these are silly.
00:26:05.87\00:26:08.54
But we still want the
courts to be able to decide
00:26:08.55\00:26:12.44
on the merits,
thumbs up, thumbs down.
00:26:12.45\00:26:15.34
What does the
establishment clause mean,
00:26:15.35\00:26:17.47
how much religion is
appropriate in public life
00:26:17.48\00:26:21.69
and where religion,
where the state needs
00:26:21.70\00:26:24.66
to be even handed and neutral
with respect to religion.
00:26:24.67\00:26:28.28
It's very important
that we have a vigorous
00:26:28.29\00:26:30.59
establishment clause, and
that the court provide guidance.
00:26:30.60\00:26:33.93
What the Supreme
Court is doing and saying,
00:26:33.94\00:26:36.01
essentially the establishment
clause is irrelevant,
00:26:36.02\00:26:39.53
we are undermining
it, and we won't get
00:26:39.54\00:26:42.05
to the merits of these cases.
00:26:42.06\00:26:43.84
And so we're left
with decreasing vitality
00:26:43.85\00:26:48.77
to the wall of separation.
00:26:48.78\00:26:50.48
There's an old saying
about the hand that rocks
00:26:51.76\00:26:54.06
the cradle determining
the direction of the nation.
00:26:54.07\00:26:57.68
It's no accident
that education policy
00:26:57.69\00:27:00.84
is so vigorously debated
because that's determining
00:27:00.85\00:27:04.57
the future of society.
00:27:04.58\00:27:06.73
When we talk about church
state issues and education,
00:27:06.74\00:27:10.47
we must concern usually to
ensure that the state doesn't
00:27:10.48\00:27:14.32
dictate or control religious
instruction the young people.
00:27:14.33\00:27:18.57
For a long time an
undercover way of subverting
00:27:19.72\00:27:23.65
a separation of church
and state and education
00:27:23.66\00:27:26.13
has been through introduce
something like vouchers
00:27:26.14\00:27:29.46
or a subterfuge whereby
government money can be passed
00:27:29.47\00:27:32.63
through church
school but not so obvious
00:27:32.64\00:27:35.72
that is seen as direct funding.
00:27:35.73\00:27:38.77
Vouchers have been
one way to do this,
00:27:38.78\00:27:42.31
a tax deduction is another,
but whatever the mechanism,
00:27:42.32\00:27:46.44
we must realize that
the principle is what
00:27:46.45\00:27:48.24
we are arguing with that.
00:27:48.25\00:27:49.29
We do not want the government
controlling education.
00:27:49.30\00:27:52.76
We do want religious
instruction to be under the hand
00:27:52.77\00:27:56.89
of the cradle if
you like in the home.
00:27:56.90\00:27:59.23
We do want religious
values, but we do not want need
00:27:59.24\00:28:03.14
or can't risk the state
being the one imparting them.
00:28:03.15\00:28:08.00
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:08.01\00:28:10.86