Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program that
brings you discussion, news,
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views and
up-to-date information on
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Religious Liberty
events in the United States
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and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine
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and with me on the program
is my guest, Greg Hamilton
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Welcome back. Thank you, Steed.
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This is not the first time
and nor will it be the last.
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And Greg, you're the President
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of the Northwest
Religious Liberty Association.
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And you're Editor
of Liberty Magazine.
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Thank you for re-affirming that.
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And those that
watch this program know
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that Liberty Magazine is
near and dear to my heart. Yes.
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Thanks for the
chance to promote it again.
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It's a magazine you can go,
if you're watching this program
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to libertymagazine.org.
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We can just show
to them right here.
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That's the latest edition right
here, the latest, very good.
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Right here, look at that.
Yeah, barely off the press,
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it's a very good issue.
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I highly recommended
especially your editorial.
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Well, thank you,
that sort of guarantee
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that you're coming
back on the program.
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I hope our viewers who
are reading Liberty Magazine
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read the editorials too.
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It was a great
editorial on globalization.
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I really appreciated it,
everybody should read it, good.
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Anyhow, I'm from Australia
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and I remember a number
of things growing up there,
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but one thing that
stuck in my mind is the,
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the trade Union
control of that country.
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And often it would
be something as simple
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as say a train driver is
disciplined by his supervisor
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and he didn't
like what they said.
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And, so his Union
would go out on strike
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and then immediately
maybe the bus drivers
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would go out on sympathy strike,
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then it would be the long
showman and before you knew it,
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it happened many times
all the Unions would go down.
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And I remember on one occasion
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every single Union in
the country was on strike
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and the Prime Minister
needed to go to the US,
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he had a plane meeting there
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and they would not fuel
his plane, he couldn't leave.
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So, I know that
writ large Unionism
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can absolutely
control all of civil society.
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That's not the case in the
United States though, is it?
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Well, it's...
it's they're actually
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at a very small minority.
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But they have tremendous power,
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and they're not
growing by any means.
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In fact, governors
because of the economic crisis
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are hitting them
hard, even democrats
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like the Governor Cuomo in
New York is attacking Unions,
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so is the Governor
0Gregoire in Washington,
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even our Governor in
Oregon, new Governor Kitzhaber.
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Even Democratic Governors,
Liberal Democratic Governors
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are going after
Unions, especially the...
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Which is in the grand
tradition of the United States.
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Again when I first came
to the U.S. back in the 60s
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and then watch
things through into the 70s.
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I can remember the FBI and
Edgar Hoover was still alive
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when I first came, they were
perusing Jimmy Hoffa big time.
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Broke that Union pretty much
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of course Jimmy
Hoffa disappeared.
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So, it's not just
Republican phenomena,
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that's happening right now
was Scott Walker with Hudson,
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it's democrats too.
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And of course...there was the
air traffic controllers Union.
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Yes. With President Reagan.
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So on a certain
level I see Unions
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under the perpetual
attack in this country.
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But as a Seventh-day
Adventist, Ellen White
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picking up on prophecy in that
dynamic of the end of time says
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that we'll see
this, this Union scourge
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or Unions in a form of a
scourge at the end of time.
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So something must have changed.
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Yes, and of course
with the auto workers Union
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that occurred recently
that was the part of the
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political and economic fall
out that occurred back in 2009
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and 2010 with
the economic crash.
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Basically United Auto Workers,
one of the main causes for
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that crash in the
automobile industry.
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And, yet Obama... President
Obama chose to restore them
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by infusing
tons of Federal money
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and even taking over the
auto industry essentially.
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And...and they
have recovered somewhat.
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But what's happening in
Wisconsin is very interesting,
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They're blaming the Unions
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for the economic fall
out nationwide. And, and...
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It's not going
to help them much?
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It's not going to
help the Unions much,
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but I also see it back
firing on Republican zealots
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who want to do away
with Unions all together.
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Now, I have to extrapolate
on a lot of this myself
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because I don't see it presently
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evidenced in the
United States society,
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as I say, weak Union
situation compared to Australia.
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But I look in the Bible and
it says that the great thing
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of the end of time is
the capital holding back
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the workers wages by fraud.
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Then it's clear that at the end
of time people rise up against
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the economic
system that's collapsing.
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So, looking at that Bible
outline and they're looking
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at the way
revolutions typically work,
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as they're working
in the Middle East.
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I would expect that
the every man, the worker,
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the, the... everyday
citizen that makes thing happen
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is going to assert
himself in the United States,
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as he's done elsewhere.
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And in that environment,
yes, I think Unionism
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probably has a second,
if not last life to go.
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And in that phase,
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I think we need to b e
careful because Unionism...
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You're saying, they
have... they have another life.
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A big life, writ large, and
the problem with the Unionism
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from the Religious
Liberty perspective is that they
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they're a close
shop type of arrangement
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where they can decide,
this is the Union policy
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and we'll do as the Union
says, and...and your principles
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religious few point
may... maybe restricted.
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Which goes to the
fact in my dealing
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with work place
discrimination cases,
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there's no such thing as
an open shop, it's a myth.
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Yeah, so, you know, I got
to be careful on Unionism,
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I have a historical
view and a prophetic view.
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I'm quite certain as
a Seventh-day Adventist
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reading prophecy that at
some point in the United States
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Unions will at far greater
problem then they are now.
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But I do know that they
did some very good things
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and at present
they're not the major problem.
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But, I agree with you
as we look at some of this
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dynamic in
Wisconsin and elsewhere.
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And even with this
present administration,
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which is a very pro-Union.
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And not socialistic in the
ideological sense but maybe
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in the sense of an
agenda that is more egalitarian.
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I think that might be the
climate for the renewed Union
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power. There's some paradoxical
cross currents anomalies
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if you will, that's occurring
though at the same time.
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What's ironic is when the Tea
Party got it started in 2009,
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they made huge appeals
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to unemployed Blue
Collar labor Union members.
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And it even caught up to
the point of 12 percent of all
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Tea Party members
were labor Union members.
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Now this is very interesting
because you know the Tea Party
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is more of a Libertarian,
independent streaks,
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sort of that broad middle
pushing back the extremes,
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demanding for original
intent and other things.
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It's a very populist movement,
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and a leaderless
movement, I'll be with that.
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But the thing I see
going on with the Tea Party
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is it started with
Scott Brown in Massachusetts
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where nearly 59
percent of the AFL CIO
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elected Scott
Brown a Republican,
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a Tea Party candidate
to take Ted Kennedy's seat.
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Which should have said to
the Tea Party that Scott Brown
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would be, you know,
fairly moderate to liberal
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once he got in there,
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especially if he's
going to survive re-election
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after 6 years to
continue to hold Kennedy's seat.
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So, to me that's an
interesting phenomenon,
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and also the phenomenon that
occurred in Olympia, Washington
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at their capital
recently when there was a forced
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Unionization of
all child care centers,
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both, public,
private and religious.
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Of the 18
Republican Senators five,
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and all five are Catholic,
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were very much for this
forced Unionization bill.
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The bill said that all
employees and the owners
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of the child care centers
are employees of the governor.
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And this was sponsored by the
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Service Employees
International Union.
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And fortunately, I was
blessed to be able to get
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there in time
to defeat the bill,
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getting 10 Democratic Senators
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to pledge no against a
final vote on the Senate floor.
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It was a huge victory for us,
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it was a huge victory
for religious freedom.
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So, what, what's your take...
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what you just described,
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where did you see this
going, what's the next step?
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I don't know,
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it's a very unpredictable
scene in my opinion.
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But I would say that
with current situation with
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great fervor against
collective bargaining
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and all the rights
and benefits that attain,
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they're too from it.
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I think it will
take a hit in the courts.
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And I think the courts as
evidenced already in Wisconsin,
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where the States Supreme
Court judges already stepped in
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and said no, what you're
doing is unconstitutional
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That to me is an element,
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a factor that we're
gonna see more and more of.
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And, and it may not help our
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economic
situation in the country.
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I personally
think that labor Unions
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are, are harmful
to economic recovery.
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Maybe not in the long run,
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but in a short run under
desperate economic times.
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But labor resists some
of the necessary changes
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that at least governments would
think that they have to pursue
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and a Union will
not go along with that.
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I've thought long and
hard about this as I say,
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prophetically I can see
it's inevitable that the dynamic
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that a Union
represents will rise up
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and certainly restrict
the conscience matters.
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How that will happen is...is
what I thought long about,
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and I actually wrote it
in Liberty Magazine once
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and nobody challenged me on it.
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And even those
0who read the editorial.
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But this is what I think,
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in the early
history of the United States
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there was a huge battle that
was won in essence by the Unions
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or at least the Unions
with the beneficiaries.
00:10:37.15\00:10:38.90
There was a battle
between capital and labor.
00:10:38.91\00:10:41.01
And 150 years
ago, the Robber Barons
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and that whole
thing were running a muck
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and of course, this
is a capitalist country,
00:10:47.65\00:10:48.64
the citizens of the
0Unites States forget it.
00:10:52.43\00:10:53.40
It always has been,
money interest controlled this,
00:10:53.41\00:10:57.15
in this country
to a large degree.
00:10:57.16\00:10:58.15
had to make his way and he had
little rights back in that era.
00:11:02.42\00:11:05.37
The police, the Pinkerton,
00:11:05.38\00:11:11.28
I was fishing for
that name, the Pinkertons,
00:11:11.29\00:11:12.87
which were private
police, paramilitary force
00:11:12.88\00:11:15.83
was brought out
against the strikers,
00:11:15.84\00:11:17.34
they were more of
them than the military
00:11:17.35\00:11:18.80
which is worth remembering.
00:11:18.81\00:11:19.90
But anyhow, the up shot of
that was the forty hour a week,
00:11:20.32\00:11:24.05
the guaranteed
wages, and the whole thing.
00:11:24.06\00:11:26.10
And middle class
America, now we're losing it.
00:11:26.74\00:11:30.99
But, what I think, we're facing,
00:11:31.75\00:11:33.45
and sort of inevitable
but no one has announced it.
00:11:33.46\00:11:34.45
We're in a new model with a
whole structure of the economy
00:11:36.42\00:11:39.46
is broken,
regardless where stock market
00:11:39.47\00:11:42.50
goes in the 0next few months.
00:11:43.53\00:11:44.50
The system is broken,
it is, the old conventions,
00:11:44.51\00:11:46.64
the old
assumptions don't work anymore.
00:11:46.65\00:11:49.11
It's a shaky house of cards,
it has been a house of card
00:11:49.78\00:11:52.91
for decades but it
is seen to be such now.
00:11:52.92\00:11:55.08
And they haven't
erected anything instead.
00:11:55.29\00:11:56.94
And, we are all just sort of on
tenterhooks, how do we survive?
00:11:56.95\00:12:00.04
And I think in this new model,
00:12:00.05\00:12:01.84
we're going to, already
0starting to see a bit of it.
00:12:04.98\00:12:05.95
But it probably will get
to be a major development
00:12:05.96\00:12:07.94
where capital and labor and
now co equals working together
00:12:08.17\00:12:12.19
for the same end and that's
not being the case before.
00:12:12.20\00:12:15.09
And in that environment,
00:12:15.35\00:12:16.79
capital might actually
work through the government
00:12:16.80\00:12:19.15
to ensure that Unionism is the
prevailing status of workers.
00:12:19.40\00:12:24.41
And....when that's the
case in essence in the back door
00:12:24.86\00:12:28.43
where you got church and state
working, not church and state,
00:12:28.44\00:12:31.94
but the state and the private,
and the religious sentiments
00:12:31.95\00:12:35.06
working through, to
inhibit religious autonomy
00:12:35.07\00:12:39.77
within a Union environment.
00:12:39.78\00:12:41.13
We would also
suggest that labor Unions
00:12:41.32\00:12:45.19
aren't as much factor,
00:12:45.60\00:12:46.57
a bigger factor in
even presidential elections.
00:12:46.58\00:12:49.15
They were with
perhaps President Obama,
00:12:49.16\00:12:51.13
but what does that
say for the future?
00:12:51.14\00:12:53.26
In terms of you know,
the influence of Labor Unions
00:12:53.99\00:12:54.96
on the election
of the President.
00:12:56.42\00:12:57.87
I don't know, I don't have
the answer to the question?
00:12:57.88\00:12:59.53
Well, we'll....we'll
see a lot of this as we go,
00:12:59.54\00:13:01.29
and as we discuss a little
bit further after the break,
00:13:01.30\00:13:03.21
we'll be back
discussing labor Unions
00:13:03.22\00:13:06.13
and what their
development and their rights
00:13:06.14\00:13:09.35
to power means
for Religious Liberty.
00:13:09.36\00:13:11.32
One-hundred years! A
long time to do anything,
00:13:19.40\00:13:22.92
much less publish a
magazine, but this year Liberty,
00:13:22.93\00:13:26.74
the Seventh-Day Adventist
voice of Religious Freedom,
00:13:26.75\00:13:29.75
celebrates one hundred years
of doing what it does best,
00:13:29.76\00:13:33.25
collecting,
analyzing, and reporting the ebb
00:13:33.26\00:13:36.76
and flow of religious
expression around the world.
00:13:36.77\00:13:39.23
Issue after
issue, Liberty has taken
00:13:39.76\00:13:42.36
on the tough assignments,
tracking down threats
00:13:42.37\00:13:44.95
of the devil in
every corner of the globe.
00:13:46.97\00:13:49.24
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:49.75\00:13:52.15
corporate assaults,
even Religious Freedom issues
00:13:52.62\00:13:55.14
sequestered within the church
community itself have been
00:13:55.65\00:13:57.88
clearly and honestly exposed.
Liberty exists for one purpose,
00:13:57.89\00:14:02.40
to help God's people
maintain that all important
00:14:02.41\00:14:05.90
separation of Church and State,
while recognizing the dangers
00:14:05.91\00:14:09.60
inherent in such a struggle.
During the past century,
00:14:09.61\00:14:13.03
Liberty has experienced
challenges of its own,
00:14:13.04\00:14:15.45
but it remains on the
job. Thanks to the inspired
00:14:15.46\00:14:19.11
leadership of a long line
of dedicated Adventist Editors,
00:14:19.12\00:14:22.07
three of whom represent
almost half of the publications
00:14:22.08\00:14:24.82
existence and the
foresight of a little woman
00:14:24.83\00:14:27.43
from New England. One
hundred years of struggle,
00:14:27.44\00:14:30.62
one hundred years of victories,
Religious Freedom isn't just
00:14:30.63\00:14:34.88
about political machines
and cultural prejudices.
00:14:34.89\00:14:37.72
It's about people fighting
for the right to serve the God
00:14:37.73\00:14:42.11
they love as their hearts
and the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:42.12\00:14:45.91
Thanks to the
prayers and generous support
00:14:46.59\00:14:48.53
of Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere,
00:14:48.54\00:14:50.44
Liberty will continue
to accomplish its work
00:14:51.02\00:14:53.33
of providing timely information,
spirit filled inspiration,
00:14:53.34\00:14:56.23
and heaven sent encouragement
to all who long to live
00:14:56.24\00:15:00.40
and work in a world
bound together by the
00:15:00.41\00:15:03.49
God ordained bonds
of religious freedom.
00:15:03.50\00:15:07.37
Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:15:17.12\00:15:19.00
Before the break
with guest, Greg Hamilton,
00:15:19.01\00:15:21.25
and I'm Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine
00:15:21.88\00:15:23.78
by the way if you
have just joined us.
00:15:23.79\00:15:25.34
Before the break I was talking
with you Greg about trade
00:15:25.54\00:15:29.17
Unions. Seventh-day Adventists
have had a long standing
00:15:29.60\00:15:33.17
suspicion of trade Unions,
not for any political or social
00:15:33.18\00:15:38.61
reason but because we see trade
Unionism working to restrict
00:15:38.62\00:15:41.35
freedom of conscious
00:15:41.36\00:15:42.33
and practice of
religion in the work place.
00:15:42.34\00:15:44.91
And we have
believed with prophetic Ques
00:15:45.71\00:15:48.31
that we would see a
resurgence of Union power
00:15:48.32\00:15:50.81
at the end of time. I
was saying that resurgence.
00:15:50.82\00:15:52.95
Well, I have this book at home,
00:15:53.19\00:15:55.14
and it's the original
manual, the original texts
00:15:55.15\00:15:59.68
of benefits
promised by the AFL CIOs
00:15:59.69\00:16:02.05
written in 1920 and it's
authored by a guy named Bakke.
00:16:02.06\00:16:07.26
And what's interesting
in it is, it talks about
00:16:07.67\00:16:09.69
giving the benefit of
having Sunday Sabbath off.
00:16:09.70\00:16:14.16
Okay, as one of its benefits.
00:16:14.73\00:16:16.24
It spends two whole pages on it,
00:16:16.25\00:16:18.08
and I thought that was
incredible in about a 800 page
00:16:18.76\00:16:21.19
book, that it would
actually talk about that.
00:16:21.65\00:16:23.34
Now Unions, largely had
their beginnings in industrial
00:16:23.35\00:16:29.68
North East and the Midwest,
00:16:30.26\00:16:31.95
but they started to make
their way down to the South.
00:16:32.50\00:16:34.70
That is religious sensibility.
00:16:34.84\00:16:36.54
Right, where they would need
to offer that type of benefit
00:16:38.03\00:16:40.98
and to sell it,
which they have apparently
00:16:41.21\00:16:42.80
have done quite successfully.
00:16:42.81\00:16:44.38
And not as successfully in
another parts of the country,
00:16:45.05\00:16:47.71
but nevertheless,
you factor that in,
00:16:48.00\00:16:50.28
and when you
factor in my office,
00:16:50.29\00:16:53.60
in which I handle all
kinds of people who call up
00:16:53.78\00:16:58.55
and say they want to be
exempt from paying Labor Union
00:16:58.56\00:17:00.79
dues and from being
a Labor Union Member.
00:17:00.80\00:17:02.86
And so, we provide that benefit,
00:17:03.37\00:17:05.19
it's pretty routine, it's
about a five page, a form, paper
00:17:05.39\00:17:08.61
form process which
we take them through
00:17:08.62\00:17:10.82
and usually there's no problems.
00:17:10.83\00:17:12.20
But Washington
State of Federal employees
00:17:12.82\00:17:14.68
and the SEIU or The
Service Employees International
00:17:15.36\00:17:18.53
have come up with a new tactic.
00:17:19.04\00:17:20.98
And, the tactic is
blatantly unconstitutional,
00:17:21.34\00:17:23.86
based up on a Six
Circuit Court Ruling,
00:17:23.87\00:17:26.18
Federal Circuit Court Ruling,
00:17:26.19\00:17:27.16
and Eight Circuit Court
Ruling which Bruce Cameron,
00:17:27.17\00:17:29.08
the attorney that we
know in Washington D.C.
00:17:29.31\00:17:31.47
that national
way to a foundation.
00:17:31.48\00:17:32.77
And he's about to
come out with an article
00:17:32.78\00:17:35.16
at Liberty Magazine
on Union development.
00:17:35.17\00:17:37.75
Super, really
smart guy on this issue
00:17:37.76\00:17:42.00
and is a real champion and
has won numerous cases in court.
00:17:42.01\00:17:45.06
The guy is just a, I
mean if anybody is on fire
00:17:45.07\00:17:47.79
on this issue to deal with the
situation, it's Bruce Cameron.
00:17:47.80\00:17:50.47
He's the leading
expert in the nation.
00:17:50.48\00:17:52.58
Absolutely, I think
that he has accepted that.
00:17:52.59\00:17:53.59
And so from these cases,
00:17:55.42\00:17:58.53
, it's proven that
it's unconstitutional,
00:17:58.54\00:18:01.34
which is what Washington
was trying to say to say
00:18:01.35\00:18:03.66
that you got to prove that it's
a religious dogma or doctrine
00:18:03.67\00:18:08.08
of your church that
you're against labor Unions.
00:18:08.09\00:18:09.08
When in fact,
first of all according
00:18:10.69\00:18:12.92
to many Supreme Court
cases, you don't even have to,
00:18:12.93\00:18:15.20
when it comes to
religious free exercise law.
00:18:15.21\00:18:16.20
It should be a matter
of personal conscience.
00:18:22.99\00:18:24.69
Exactly, which is
what they decided,
00:18:24.70\00:18:25.69
and Bruce
Cameron pointed that out.
00:18:26.29\00:18:27.95
And so, I you know
in dealing with both
00:18:27.96\00:18:28.95
Washington
Federal State Employees
00:18:31.21\00:18:32.70
and also the Service
Employees International,
00:18:32.71\00:18:34.37
I said, this an unconstitutional
tactic on your part.
00:18:34.38\00:18:37.05
You know, you're
saying that this is required,
00:18:37.06\00:18:38.05
but that's your requirement
that's not required by law.
00:18:39.27\00:18:41.99
Yeah. I said this
smoke and mirrors,
00:18:42.00\00:18:44.04
this...this is an unfair
tactic and it's a pure tactic.
00:18:44.05\00:18:47.77
And so, and also
in the form it says
00:18:48.35\00:18:50.68
you have 30 days to decide
whether you want to become
00:18:50.69\00:18:53.34
a labor Union member
or not, that's bogus.
00:18:53.35\00:18:55.51
You know, you can
become, you can exempt yourself
00:18:55.84\00:18:58.19
from labor Union
membership any time you want.
00:18:58.20\00:19:00.15
And so this
whole idea of open shop
00:19:00.92\00:19:03.06
and close shop is pure nonsense.
00:19:03.07\00:19:05.06
Well, we haven't revisited
what came up earlier with the
00:19:05.93\00:19:08.94
Obama administration that the
choice provision was no choice?
00:19:10.85\00:19:16.35
You are telling
about faith based issues?
00:19:18.32\00:19:19.57
No, maybe, I got the
wrong term, what was aware,
00:19:19.58\00:19:22.27
where they were
putting it to a general vote
00:19:23.15\00:19:26.31
of the members, it
was an open vote, Greg.
00:19:26.32\00:19:29.35
Oh! Oh! Yeah, I remember that,
00:19:29.65\00:19:31.60
that was actually during
the presidential election.
00:19:31.61\00:19:34.16
It was a ballot initiative.
00:19:34.17\00:19:35.74
And there was some
discussion of it shortly after,
00:19:36.10\00:19:38.63
but it seems to
have gone by the bye.
00:19:38.64\00:19:40.35
It's not trying to, it was
a device to more easily form
00:19:40.36\00:19:45.00
Unions, because that that's
the real threat of Unionism.
00:19:45.78\00:19:49.04
I don't myself see it
as a threat from Unionism
00:19:49.44\00:19:52.03
just that Unions exists.
00:19:52.04\00:19:53.25
It's when a Union
model is a monopoly.
00:19:53.71\00:19:56.66
Oh, I know it was,
when it came to vote
00:19:56.67\00:19:58.43
and when Unions tried to
infiltrate in the companies,
00:19:58.44\00:20:01.10
when it came to vote
00:20:01.11\00:20:02.08
as to whether they
were Unionized or not.
00:20:02.09\00:20:03.64
Those who chose not to
vote, it said, that they would
00:20:04.34\00:20:07.16
put their names up
and reveal those names.
00:20:07.86\00:20:10.23
Which is, which is absolutely,
talk about pure pressure
00:20:10.97\00:20:14.75
that's not only dominance,
that's bullying. Right.
00:20:14.76\00:20:19.31
And...and, so
even George McGovern,
00:20:19.32\00:20:21.44
the former
presidential candidate,
00:20:21.45\00:20:23.53
1972 rose up
against this tactic.
00:20:26.23\00:20:27.20
And even then Liberal Republican
or modern Republican Senator,
00:20:27.21\00:20:32.47
Arlen Specter, became a
democrat later, was against it,
00:20:32.48\00:20:35.61
and numerous people
stood up against this tactic.
00:20:37.87\00:20:38.84
So, I see what you are
saying in terms of tactics,
00:20:38.85\00:20:40.30
but here's my point.
00:20:40.31\00:20:41.57
They seemed to have
backed off from that,
00:20:41.58\00:20:42.65
we were worried
big time about that
00:20:42.66\00:20:45.35
but that's faded and so
now there's another way to
00:20:45.36\00:20:48.98
to give power back to the Unions
00:20:48.99\00:20:51.00
rather then forced
Unionization of a given.
00:20:51.01\00:20:56.56
But here's my point, in
regard to Sabbath keeping,
00:20:56.98\00:20:58.90
whenever we have a combined
Sabbath conflict situation.
00:20:58.91\00:20:59.90
And the Seventh-day Adventist,
00:21:03.07\00:21:04.46
the Seventh-day
Sabbath, Saturday.
00:21:04.47\00:21:06.72
And their Labor Union member
as well as having a Sabbath
00:21:06.73\00:21:09.38
conflict in the work place.
00:21:09.39\00:21:10.51
We have found that when
they get a representative
00:21:10.93\00:21:14.07
assigned to them, okay.
00:21:14.08\00:21:16.00
It amounts to nothing,
0they really don't do much.
00:21:19.72\00:21:20.69
And when they do appeal
it beyond the Union system
00:21:20.70\00:21:23.03
and they go court many,
times a court will remand
00:21:23.04\00:21:25.28
it back and say, well you had
a fair internal equal employment
00:21:25.29\00:21:29.47
opportunity
process within your Union.
00:21:29.48\00:21:31.55
So they say,
it's out of our hands,
00:21:32.28\00:21:34.25
you deal that within your Union.
00:21:34.26\00:21:35.89
What I have told
my church members,
00:21:35.90\00:21:38.26
and warned them
about labor Unions.
00:21:38.83\00:21:40.20
Is that, it... it's true,
00:21:40.53\00:21:42.39
you haven't signed
your religious freedom
00:21:42.40\00:21:44.13
rights away
under the constitution.
00:21:44.14\00:21:45.81
But in practice you almost have
00:21:45.82\00:21:48.13
in a way when you
sign on the bottom line
00:21:48.14\00:21:50.27
to become a labor Union member.
00:21:50.28\00:21:51.32
And, so that's why I
want to warn people about,
00:21:51.80\00:21:53.72
is it that you don't
have the protections there
00:21:53.73\00:21:55.81
that you think
that you might have.
00:21:55.82\00:21:57.30
Let's...it acts in two ways,
00:21:57.70\00:21:58.88
as we've always seen
just voting in general.
00:21:58.89\00:22:01.34
It may restrict you in
your practice of religion
00:22:01.92\00:22:04.38
but you might be then
party to certain actions
00:22:04.99\00:22:07.76
that are antithetical to
what your religion stands for,
00:22:07.77\00:22:10.68
both general morality or of
particular actions of the Union.
00:22:10.69\00:22:15.31
The biggest problem
that Ellen G White saw
00:22:15.87\00:22:17.69
in regards to labor Unions
in almost all of the writings
00:22:17.70\00:22:20.25
that I see coming through
is the thuggery type nature
00:22:20.26\00:22:24.02
of labor Unions
that if you won't join,
00:22:24.03\00:22:26.52
then it's the old
Bush statement, you know,
00:22:27.24\00:22:30.47
you're either for us or
you're against us. Absolutely.
00:22:30.48\00:22:32.59
And that becomes problematic
in a last day scenario.
00:22:32.60\00:22:35.46
I'd work in another way
a term that against here
00:22:35.65\00:22:39.33
I use, is monopolistic,
monopolistic behavior.
00:22:39.34\00:22:42.27
Yeah. This is, we are it
and you do what we say or else.
00:22:42.28\00:22:46.04
How many times we have seen
that when Unions have striked.
00:22:46.29\00:22:49.79
And then the non-Union members
come in to take their places.
00:22:50.42\00:22:54.35
Well, that's where
the violence erupt.
00:22:54.36\00:22:55.61
And then the people
get their baseball bats out
00:22:55.62\00:22:57.77
and their guns and they
started attacking these people.
00:22:57.78\00:23:00.34
Yeah. And...and that's really
00:23:00.35\00:23:02.66
problematic, and so
it's true that labor Unions,
00:23:02.67\00:23:06.72
I think when it comes to
collective bargaining law.
00:23:07.33\00:23:10.44
they have a right to preserve
the benefits that's due them.
00:23:11.19\00:23:14.25
But...and so what's
happening in Wisconsin
00:23:15.08\00:23:16.73
is a very interesting
phenomena, in Iowa and Indiana
00:23:16.74\00:23:21.01
I believe, the other
state where this is happening,
00:23:21.02\00:23:23.63
it's an interesting phenomena.
00:23:23.64\00:23:24.98
But where does it actually
goes I don't know, but I think,
00:23:25.55\00:23:28.17
I really don't see Unions
dying off and like you said,
00:23:28.34\00:23:31.63
I see them actually
coming back with a roar.
00:23:31.64\00:23:34.36
Yeah, and something that
I've never heard said before
00:23:34.75\00:23:37.82
that it just strikes
me, we would need Unions
00:23:37.83\00:23:41.63
in a modern democratic state
if the state had taken up on
00:23:41.64\00:23:46.25
itself to defend the
rights of the worker,
00:23:46.26\00:23:48.84
but that's not often the case.
00:23:48.85\00:23:50.33
And in reality the United States
00:23:50.34\00:23:53.02
is not so much
controlled by big business
00:23:53.03\00:23:55.78
but it is the...the family
documents make quite plan,
00:23:55.79\00:23:59.94
the pursuit of happiness
involves the pursuit of money
00:23:59.95\00:24:04.21
and so money was very
much at the root of this.
00:24:04.22\00:24:07.15
So, by nature the
government tends to support
00:24:07.16\00:24:09.83
the making of money, the big
companies that make the money.
00:24:09.84\00:24:13.40
And they're the captains of
industry less than the janitor.
00:24:13.61\00:24:18.52
But if there was a rigorous
defensive workers rights,
00:24:19.12\00:24:22.12
I would be the first to argue,
00:24:22.13\00:24:23.43
you don't need a
Union whatsoever.
00:24:23.44\00:24:25.27
Now, I don't want
people to get wrong impression,
00:24:25.50\00:24:26.98
I'm sure you don't either.
00:24:26.99\00:24:27.98
And that is, we don't
want to give people the
00:24:28.00\00:24:29.83
idea that being a labor
Union member is somehow a sin.
00:24:29.84\00:24:32.66
No. Because there are number of
00:24:32.67\00:24:35.06
of church members in the
Seventh-day Adventist church,
00:24:35.07\00:24:36.77
they are Labor Union members.
00:24:36.78\00:24:37.96
And I have had people
call my office all the time
00:24:38.40\00:24:40.21
saying I don't see any
wrong with Labor Unions.
00:24:40.22\00:24:42.35
And I tell them, you
know to the contrary that
00:24:42.36\00:24:44.73
I think just the opposite
00:24:44.74\00:24:45.82
But, nevertheless we
need to remember that,
00:24:46.54\00:24:48.24
people who are
Labor Union member
00:24:48.25\00:24:50.02
should not be
discriminated in our churches.
00:24:50.19\00:24:52.61
And even our North
American division policy manual
00:24:52.95\00:24:56.26
stated it very clearly
that to withhold a church office
00:24:56.27\00:25:00.32
from a Labor Union member
00:25:00.33\00:25:01.72
is actually a
discriminatory by law.
00:25:01.73\00:25:04.76
No it's a matter of individual
conscience which is why
00:25:05.29\00:25:07.18
we objected the
Union in the first place,
00:25:07.19\00:25:08.18
right, to restrict the exercise
of the individual conscience.
00:25:09.04\00:25:12.37
But Ellen White writing
to Seventh-day Adventist,
00:25:12.84\00:25:14.79
this is no grand pronouncement
of the world at large,
00:25:14.80\00:25:18.30
but she said that any,
I'm slightly paraphrasing
00:25:18.47\00:25:22.02
any person that expects the
soon coming of Christ, right,
00:25:22.15\00:25:26.09
cannot belong to any Union
00:25:26.60\00:25:28.64
that has been formed
or will ever be formed.
00:25:28.65\00:25:31.35
So the caution against Union
was not tied to time and place.
00:25:31.97\00:25:36.56
It was...it was
there's something inherently
00:25:36.57\00:25:41.39
antithetical to freedom
of conscience in the Union
00:25:41.40\00:25:43.99
structure. Absolutely.
But clearly as I explain
00:25:44.13\00:25:46.98
from history, you could
look at the history of capital
00:25:46.99\00:25:49.57
and labor and
there's a good argument
00:25:49.58\00:25:50.95
what Unions needed and
have done a good thing.
00:25:50.96\00:25:54.08
So we are not opposed
to Unions in that sense,
00:25:54.45\00:25:56.86
right, it's the point
of view of conscience.
00:25:56.87\00:25:58.46
And conscience when it
comes to that resisting
00:25:59.70\00:26:03.48
the effects politically,
even of Unions, which
00:26:04.91\00:26:08.13
tend to side with
the democratic party...
00:26:08.14\00:26:10.94
party mainly and
that's the other thing
00:26:10.95\00:26:12.85
is that we haven't factored
in here in this discussion
00:26:12.86\00:26:15.38
is that typically Labor
Unions are the huge donors,
00:26:15.39\00:26:21.27
politically, towards the big war
chess of democratic politicians.
00:26:21.28\00:26:26.05
And that's not casting
concrete, that could shift
00:26:26.06\00:26:28.21
and we will see in a little....
little in the current.
00:26:28.66\00:26:29.97
You can, but
that's one of the reasons
00:26:29.98\00:26:31.34
why Seventh-day
Adventist have traditionally
00:26:31.35\00:26:33.38
not been favor
of the Labor Unions.
00:26:33.39\00:26:37.09
And it happens to attached
to the nature of the very fact
00:26:37.10\00:26:42.21
that we are very
conservative in our beliefs
00:26:42.22\00:26:44.65
and we should be
conservative in our beliefs.
00:26:44.66\00:26:46.31
We should be concerned
about Labor Unions today.
00:26:46.75\00:26:49.25
Imagine you're one of the
Israelites slaves toiling there
00:26:51.35\00:26:54.33
at Egypt thousands of years ago.
00:26:54.34\00:26:56.02
Working on shore
from before the sun up
00:26:57.69\00:26:59.75
till after the sun down always
under the last shift over here.
00:26:59.76\00:27:03.21
And yet we're told
that when Moses appeared
00:27:04.20\00:27:06.73
on the scene and proclaimed
00:27:06.74\00:27:08.18
that the Lord required
certain things of them.
00:27:08.71\00:27:11.03
Then they were
actually worked harder,
00:27:11.50\00:27:14.72
they were given the same or
greater quarter but no straw.
00:27:15.12\00:27:18.44
There's been a great
battle between capital
00:27:20.83\00:27:22.45
and labor through the years.
00:27:22.46\00:27:24.44
Seventh-day
Adventist have recognized
00:27:25.23\00:27:27.10
that while the
workers has rights.
00:27:27.11\00:27:29.45
And that the workers very
much like those Israelites
00:27:29.80\00:27:32.76
of your bending under
the lash of the task master
00:27:32.94\00:27:36.66
that they too have
rights and dignity of labor
00:27:36.67\00:27:41.13
and a right to living wage.
00:27:41.14\00:27:42.94
But there is a
question of autonomy
00:27:44.01\00:27:46.08
of someone who has
a spiritual commitment
00:27:46.27\00:27:48.46
and because of that
Seventh-day Adventist
00:27:49.03\00:27:51.19
have long seen Labor
Unions as working to repress
00:27:51.20\00:27:54.45
individual
freedoms, spiritual rights.
00:27:54.46\00:27:57.66
And as we come toward
the very close of time
00:27:58.29\00:28:00.24
it will be more
important than ever to maintain
00:28:00.85\00:28:02.92
this position in our current
war between capital and labor.
00:28:03.08\00:28:06.55
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:07.81\00:28:10.38