Welcome to the Liberty
Insider. This is the program
00:00:23.10\00:00:25.76
that brings you news,
views, discussion and up to date
00:00:25.77\00:00:28.80
information on
religious Liberty Issues.
00:00:28.81\00:00:31.07
In the United
States, and around world.
00:00:31.08\00:00:33.52
My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
00:00:33.53\00:00:36.39
And my guest on the
program Greg Hamilton.
00:00:36.40\00:00:38.76
Welcome Greg. Glad to be here.
00:00:39.38\00:00:40.61
You are the President
00:00:41.05\00:00:42.86
of the Northwest
Religious Liberty Association
00:00:42.87\00:00:45.13
among other things, but
that's very important work
00:00:45.14\00:00:48.86
that you carry
on there. Thank you.
00:00:48.87\00:00:50.40
Now like all of us
working with Religious Liberty
00:00:50.41\00:00:53.63
you're watching political events
very closely in particularly
00:00:53.64\00:00:56.22
in the United States,
because so much of what we do
00:00:56.23\00:00:58.60
relates to the US
Constitution and separation
00:00:58.61\00:01:00.94
of church and state.
Very important principle.
00:01:00.95\00:01:03.18
Now, President Obama
came in at an incredible time,
00:01:03.99\00:01:07.56
the economy
collapsing and then quickly,
00:01:07.57\00:01:11.16
great polarization
of political viewpoints.
00:01:11.17\00:01:13.66
You know, he's
been called a socialist,
00:01:13.67\00:01:15.01
a communist, a Muslim.
00:01:15.02\00:01:16.80
He definitely has an agenda.
How do you see the developments
00:01:19.22\00:01:23.61
under his
presidency and his agenda
00:01:23.62\00:01:26.08
and all relating
to Religious Liberty?
00:01:26.09\00:01:27.97
Well, obviously
circumstances come to him,
00:01:28.28\00:01:30.49
worldwide events
come to him as they come.
00:01:30.50\00:01:32.28
But I think as we
explain in another show
00:01:32.88\00:01:34.59
we have to look his
childhood background.
00:01:34.60\00:01:36.96
In terms of his
religion, what is he?
00:01:36.97\00:01:39.95
Or what religion
is he? Absolutely.
00:01:39.96\00:01:42.54
By the way, I know,
you know this very well,
00:01:43.14\00:01:46.26
but it's worth
reminding our viewers,
00:01:46.27\00:01:47.99
that this is not a mystery,
because twice that I know
00:01:48.00\00:01:51.06
of at a national prayer
breakfast about a month ago.
00:01:51.07\00:01:53.92
And then in 2006 he
gave long presentations
00:01:53.93\00:01:58.48
on his religious upbringing,
he characterized himself
00:01:58.49\00:02:01.44
as very secular, his
family is almost anti-religious.
00:02:01.45\00:02:04.23
But then he gave
very ringing affirmation
00:02:04.24\00:02:06.85
of his religious
commitment in recent years.
00:02:06.86\00:02:08.77
Yeah, that's what
I wanted to address,
00:02:09.43\00:02:10.79
is that we have to look at
his childhood specifically,
00:02:10.80\00:02:14.20
because his
mother was an Atheist,
00:02:14.54\00:02:16.41
his real father
was a Jack Muslim,
00:02:16.42\00:02:19.67
always getting in trouble
with the Muslim authorities
00:02:19.68\00:02:21.67
in Canada, in Kenya.
00:02:21.68\00:02:23.25
And his stepfather,
in Jakarta, Indonesia,
00:02:23.26\00:02:26.57
the same problem and
they were both Jack Muslims.
00:02:26.58\00:02:29.51
So this idea that somehow
Obama have developed Muslim
00:02:29.52\00:02:32.56
just because he attended
a Madrassa School for life.
00:02:32.57\00:02:35.59
Is it not a
Madrassa school? Well, yeah.
00:02:35.60\00:02:37.69
In, I need to qualify
this, I've been to Indonesia,
00:02:37.70\00:02:42.47
by law there, Islam
is taught in the schools
00:02:42.48\00:02:47.13
and there are a
few non-Islamic schools
00:02:47.14\00:02:49.72
are Seventh-day
Adventist church run schools.
00:02:49.73\00:02:51.48
But they are
forbidden to teach Muslims.
00:02:51.49\00:02:55.41
So if one Muslim
child comes to your school,
00:02:55.42\00:02:58.29
you have to hire a
Muslim teacher to teach the...
00:02:58.30\00:03:00.64
Well, he had some prevailing...
00:03:00.65\00:03:03.31
I'm sure he had
all Muslim teachers.
00:03:03.32\00:03:05.06
Right. For about
a year and a half
00:03:05.07\00:03:06.92
and they didn't last long
and but most of his education
00:03:06.93\00:03:11.59
was actually in
Catholic schools,
00:03:11.60\00:03:13.16
which his grandfather,
his grandmother were Catholic.
00:03:13.17\00:03:15.46
So, he had this eclectic
mix. In fact he said prior
00:03:15.47\00:03:19.92
to winning for President,
he says I felt confused,
00:03:19.93\00:03:22.16
even when he was a
social coordinator in Chicago,
00:03:22.17\00:03:26.79
he a Community Organizer.
Community Organizer, yeah.
00:03:26.80\00:03:29.21
He said that I felt
lost, I felt like I didn't have
00:03:29.22\00:03:34.15
a faith and you can read
this in Steve Mansfield's book
00:03:34.16\00:03:37.30
"Barack Obama's Faith"
and it's a interesting book
00:03:38.82\00:03:41.52
because he says
his faith is eclectic
00:03:41.53\00:03:44.09
and that's why young
people can relate to him.
00:03:44.10\00:03:45.94
It's almost like anything
goes. And when he decided upon
00:03:45.95\00:03:49.15
Pentecostal
forms of Christianity
00:03:49.16\00:03:51.80
or Christianity
itself. He says, Obama says,
00:03:51.81\00:03:55.79
I found myself, I found
Jesus and I accept Jesus
00:03:55.80\00:03:59.17
as my personal
Savior. Yes, this is gonna be.
00:03:59.18\00:04:00.83
So, I had a hard
time with people who say
00:04:00.84\00:04:02.94
that Obama is a Muslim,
actually he is a new ager
00:04:02.95\00:04:06.28
in a way because, you know,
00:04:06.29\00:04:08.08
all paths lead to heaven
in Obama's thinking really.
00:04:08.09\00:04:11.40
Because that's
where he comes from,
00:04:11.41\00:04:13.76
that's where he is at.
And it leads to our discussion
00:04:13.77\00:04:18.10
of Obama's
Olive Branch doctrine,
00:04:18.11\00:04:21.33
which I'd believe as his
actual foreign-policy doctrine.
00:04:21.34\00:04:24.56
And it's centered
around Interfaith,
00:04:24.57\00:04:28.06
Interfaith Alliances. And
it actually is at the core,
00:04:28.07\00:04:32.73
its central to his
overall foreign-policy,
00:04:32.74\00:04:36.15
as described in his speech both
in Turkey and also in Cairo.
00:04:36.16\00:04:41.91
The one that everybody
remembers is the June 2009
00:04:41.92\00:04:45.37
big speech before
government leaders,
00:04:45.38\00:04:47.07
military leaders and religious
leaders in Cairo, Egypt.
00:04:47.08\00:04:49.76
And I think that those speeches
had a lot to do with at least
00:04:49.77\00:04:53.52
creating a climate
for this radical movement
00:04:53.53\00:04:57.00
within the Middle East recently.
Yeah, in fact Thomas Friedman
00:04:57.01\00:04:59.55
in New York Times
gave just that endorsement.
00:04:59.56\00:05:01.99
He said that people forget
about his 2009 speech in Cairo,
00:05:02.00\00:05:06.72
which attempted
to distance himself
00:05:06.73\00:05:08.95
from the Bush administration,
which was in your face
00:05:08.96\00:05:12.12
democratic
reform, you know, or else.
00:05:12.13\00:05:14.84
And he is saying no,
we're not gonna force
00:05:14.85\00:05:17.21
you politically or religiously
to adopt Americas ways
00:05:17.22\00:05:21.81
or our ways of thinking whether
it's Christian or otherwise.
00:05:21.82\00:05:24.89
Now, the Right Wing Republicans
mostly criticized him
00:05:24.90\00:05:29.87
for apologizing for America,
I didn't really see it that way.
00:05:29.88\00:05:33.20
But they feel that we should
be like Bush in your face.
00:05:33.21\00:05:35.93
That is psychologically
as far as a human approach,
00:05:35.94\00:05:40.63
I think this is more
likely to be feat isn't it?
00:05:40.64\00:05:43.01
But what is a
feat, can we agree?
00:05:43.02\00:05:44.94
Well. What with
where this is heading?
00:05:44.95\00:05:46.95
The problem is when it
comes to Religious Freedom
00:05:46.96\00:05:49.41
and this is the
problem, is Religious Freedom
00:05:49.42\00:05:52.31
is being acquainted
with religious tolerance
00:05:52.32\00:05:54.57
in many of
President Obama's speeches.
00:05:54.58\00:05:57.52
Well, he is, he
changed the term right?
00:05:57.53\00:05:59.48
From freedom of
worship, not changed that but
00:05:59.49\00:06:02.15
there was shift to
mostly using freedom of worship
00:06:02.16\00:06:05.21
rather than freedom
of religion. Correct.
00:06:05.22\00:06:07.15
And we know that there is world
of difference between, yes,
00:06:07.16\00:06:09.91
how you apply those.
Yes, and the difference
00:06:09.92\00:06:11.68
is basically this.
And this is the problem
00:06:11.69\00:06:14.75
with Interfaith Movement
that I see everywhere including
00:06:14.76\00:06:17.33
Interfaith Alliance in
Portland, Oregon where I belong,
00:06:17.34\00:06:19.55
oh! I remember that,
and that is you have,
00:06:19.56\00:06:22.87
you know, we can
talk about religion,
00:06:22.88\00:06:25.45
we can talk about
our individual faith.
00:06:25.46\00:06:27.28
And respect one and
another. That's otherwise call
00:06:27.29\00:06:30.56
peaceful coexistence in
Indonesia under the 5 point
00:06:30.57\00:06:34.20
philosophical bases of
Indonesia's Constitution
00:06:34.21\00:06:38.44
it's called Pancasila. And
it', it's otherwise known as
00:06:38.45\00:06:41.53
peaceful coexistence,
you have a right to share
00:06:41.54\00:06:44.74
your faith as long
as it, it's agreed to by
00:06:44.75\00:06:49.27
the other person and
not forced up on him.
00:06:49.28\00:06:51.05
But you do not have a
right to evangelize them
00:06:51.06\00:06:53.51
nor do you have a
right to convert okay
00:06:53.52\00:06:56.83
and that's flies in
the face of article 18
00:06:56.84\00:07:00.24
of the Universal
declaration of human rights
00:07:00.25\00:07:01.94
in the covenants.
And that's problematic,
00:07:01.95\00:07:05.03
it also flies in the face
of the US Constitution idea
00:07:05.04\00:07:08.62
of equality of all
religions under the law.
00:07:08.63\00:07:12.19
And so, now I'm not saying
that Obama means that to be
00:07:12.20\00:07:16.05
bases of Religious Freedom
here in America not at all.
00:07:16.06\00:07:18.99
He's now willing to tackle
that mindset where it exists.
00:07:19.00\00:07:22.33
He's saying, I
want to meet Muslims
00:07:22.34\00:07:23.93
where they're at.
Because this is probably
00:07:23.94\00:07:25.45
the only realistic
destination we can arrive at,
00:07:25.46\00:07:28.97
in terms of democratic
reform and Religious Freedom
00:07:28.98\00:07:31.82
in those worlds. I mean,
00:07:31.83\00:07:33.16
can you imagine in
Saudi Arabia, the whole idea
00:07:33.17\00:07:35.87
of the American
model of Religious Freedom
00:07:35.88\00:07:38.22
probably wouldn't
happen. But, what it does mean
00:07:38.23\00:07:40.64
is that he is not
troubling within those countries
00:07:40.65\00:07:43.12
like Egypt some what
and uncertainly Saudi Arabia
00:07:43.13\00:07:47.03
where it's against
the law to convert.
00:07:47.04\00:07:49.13
Like just before the uprising
in Egypt a survey was taken.
00:07:49.14\00:07:54.67
And I think it was 80 plus
percent of that survey said
00:07:54.68\00:07:59.22
that they would support
the law even the death penalty
00:07:59.23\00:08:01.46
on the law against
conversion. So the whole mindset
00:08:01.47\00:08:05.95
in that whole country is against
changing religious identity.
00:08:05.96\00:08:09.40
Lot of people
don't realize that even
00:08:09.41\00:08:11.21
the Bush administration
and the Obama administration
00:08:11.22\00:08:13.20
is basically
saying the same thing,
00:08:13.21\00:08:15.09
it didn't originate with Obama.
But, they are basically saying,
00:08:15.10\00:08:18.71
as with Condoleezza Rice,
the Former Secretary of State
00:08:18.72\00:08:21.12
and George W.
Bush. There was this idea
00:08:21.13\00:08:23.46
that Sharia law
can be compatible
00:08:23.47\00:08:27.39
with democratic
reform, which I think
00:08:27.40\00:08:30.63
is wholly nonsense.
Yeah. And nevertheless,
00:08:30.64\00:08:34.25
that is their mindset
and this is coming out
00:08:34.26\00:08:38.32
in the news quite a
bit, by from very credible
00:08:38.33\00:08:40.50
foreign policy
experts, not on the far right
00:08:40.51\00:08:42.67
but credible people
like Fareed Zakaria,
00:08:42.68\00:08:45.38
you name it, even
the Defense Secretary
00:08:47.23\00:08:49.79
Robert Gates. Well,
the way its floating.
00:08:49.80\00:08:51.62
And I've heard a number of
discussions is that we keep
00:08:51.63\00:08:53.50
our western law, or constitution
00:08:53.51\00:08:55.46
and all that goes with
it. But in day to day matters
00:08:55.47\00:08:58.29
people be subject
to a Sharia law court.
00:08:58.30\00:09:00.54
But they don't realize
that there is an essentially
00:09:00.55\00:09:03.55
incompatibility between the two.
So you can't have this operate
00:09:03.56\00:09:06.68
and then the regular civil
law kick in at a certain level.
00:09:06.69\00:09:10.30
These will be in conflict
from day one even on matters
00:09:10.31\00:09:14.17
of marriage and
divorce and so on...
00:09:14.18\00:09:15.75
Well, women's right.
Instantly, they would
00:09:15.76\00:09:17.88
be deprive to civil
rights that the constitution.
00:09:17.89\00:09:19.97
And the whole concept
of the roles of church
00:09:19.98\00:09:21.81
and state, it would
be very problematic.
00:09:21.82\00:09:24.11
Well, it doesn't accept
it, there is no separation.
00:09:24.12\00:09:25.96
Right, Well,
there is a separation
00:09:25.97\00:09:27.44
in one sense. In the
Sunni system they believe
00:09:27.45\00:09:29.36
that cleric should not rule,
where as in the Shiya system
00:09:29.37\00:09:32.31
which is in Iran. They
say that clerics absolutely
00:09:32.32\00:09:36.31
must rule. So,
that's the clear difference
00:09:36.32\00:09:38.23
between the two. Well yes,
00:09:38.24\00:09:39.74
that's the custom but
in... from the Quran they do not
00:09:39.75\00:09:43.91
acccept that the
religious affairs to be separate
00:09:43.92\00:09:47.52
of civil affairs.
Right, that's right.
00:09:47.53\00:09:49.08
And the religious
economy rules the State.
00:09:49.09\00:09:50.99
And there is, these
optimistic reports even
00:09:51.00\00:09:53.81
by various Muslim
professors that teach at Harvard
00:09:53.82\00:09:56.69
and else where.
They are saying that,
00:09:56.70\00:09:58.93
there is no problem.
There will be separation
00:09:58.94\00:10:02.01
of church and state. You know,
00:10:02.02\00:10:03.52
I'm hearing this all the time.
00:10:03.53\00:10:04.85
Yeah, I don't know
why they are saying.
00:10:04.86\00:10:06.12
I don't know why?
Either they're thoroughly
00:10:06.13\00:10:07.94
deluded and you hope
not, because then you wonder
00:10:07.95\00:10:09.94
about their intelligence
or they're being disingenuous.
00:10:09.95\00:10:12.16
And I think there is an effort
not so much to deceive people
00:10:12.17\00:10:15.45
but they see an
inevitability in this,
00:10:15.46\00:10:17.83
they want to
sort of rationalize,
00:10:17.84\00:10:19.54
well it will be
okay. But I think
00:10:19.55\00:10:21.72
it's an intellectually dishonest
way to carry the argument.
00:10:21.73\00:10:24.94
So, where does this
take U.S Foreign Policy,
00:10:24.95\00:10:27.36
I mean, the
whole Arab unrest seems
00:10:27.37\00:10:29.64
to be reshaping
United States International
00:10:29.65\00:10:34.15
Religious Freedom policy.
And I think it's going down
00:10:34.16\00:10:38.72
a road that it
is almost as harmful
00:10:38.73\00:10:41.46
to true Religious
freedom, as the hard right
00:10:41.47\00:10:44.62
approach is that.
Well unless you accept
00:10:44.63\00:10:47.91
democratic
reform, we're gonna put
00:10:47.92\00:10:50.34
economic sanctions on you.
And if you don't reform after
00:10:50.35\00:10:53.04
a certain amount of years,
we're going to attack you.
00:10:53.05\00:10:55.74
I mean, you know, the
idea of religious force
00:10:55.75\00:11:01.72
is... abomination. So,
you have these two factors,
00:11:01.73\00:11:06.18
you got the crusade mentality,
you got the Jihadist mentality.
00:11:06.19\00:11:09.15
The two extremes and Obama
is trying to reach the middle
00:11:09.16\00:11:12.38
but where does this
lead. Well, in some ways,
00:11:12.39\00:11:15.68
I mean in leads in
many different directions.
00:11:15.69\00:11:17.03
But in some ways it's prepared
to do to the world what politics
00:11:17.04\00:11:21.18
has done for a long
time, divide it up into
00:11:21.19\00:11:23.03
spheres of
influence? And as long as
00:11:23.04\00:11:25.62
the Islamic Philosophy
can have interaction with
00:11:25.63\00:11:29.84
the Christians
Philosophy, but don't meddle
00:11:29.85\00:11:31.89
with the prerogatives
of one area over the other.
00:11:31.90\00:11:34.25
Barack Obama points
to Indonesia as the model
00:11:34.26\00:11:38.35
for Religious
Freedom for the rest of the,
00:11:38.36\00:11:40.52
or for the Arab-Muslim
world. Indonesia being in the...
00:11:40.53\00:11:44.63
It's one of the best cases,
it's not an ideal situation.
00:11:44.64\00:11:48.00
Yeah, exactly and so
this peaceful coexistence
00:11:48.01\00:11:51.01
or Pancasila that's always being
referred to by President Obama.
00:11:51.02\00:11:54.97
The problem with it is
that, I'm reading in the news
00:11:54.98\00:11:57.90
constantly that the persecution
of Christians and especially
00:11:57.91\00:12:01.65
by Generals who are rising
up, I just read the report
00:12:01.66\00:12:04.45
two days ago. Generals rising up
00:12:04.46\00:12:06.39
and supporting the
extreme Islamic fundamentalists,
00:12:06.40\00:12:09.55
the Islamists in
Indonesia. Indonesia is starting
00:12:09.56\00:12:12.75
to tip backwards as
we speak. That's my take.
00:12:12.76\00:12:15.63
Towards major all out
civil war and revolution again.
00:12:15.64\00:12:18.60
And so, this model that's
being proposed is short sighted.
00:12:19.27\00:12:24.36
Yes, absolutely.
And there is no question
00:12:24.37\00:12:28.43
that the US in some ways
acts like a baby in the war zone
00:12:28.44\00:12:31.15
on international
religion, religious affairs.
00:12:31.16\00:12:34.26
And it's possible that this
President with good intentions
00:12:34.27\00:12:38.86
is pursuing a dangerous
course on Religious freedom
00:12:38.87\00:12:41.42
and the separation
of church and state.
00:12:41.43\00:12:42.95
We'll be back
after a short break
00:12:42.96\00:12:44.79
to continue this discussion,
a very interesting one
00:12:44.80\00:12:47.56
on how US policy in
matters of Religious Freedom
00:12:47.57\00:12:50.76
impacts Religious
Freedom here and abroad.
00:12:50.77\00:12:54.21
One-hundred years! A
long time to do anything,
00:13:03.48\00:13:06.90
much less publish a
magazine, but this year Liberty,
00:13:06.91\00:13:10.88
the Seventh-Day Adventist
voice of Religious Freedom,
00:13:10.89\00:13:13.64
celebrates one hundred years
of doing what it does best,
00:13:13.65\00:13:17.35
collecting,
analyzing, and reporting the ebb
00:13:17.36\00:13:20.62
and flow of religious
expression around the world.
00:13:20.63\00:13:23.32
Issue after
issue, Liberty has taken
00:13:23.33\00:13:26.41
on the tough assignments,
tracking down threats
00:13:26.42\00:13:28.95
to Religious Freedom
and exposing the work
00:13:28.96\00:13:30.62
of the devil in
every corner of the globe.
00:13:30.63\00:13:33.57
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:33.58\00:13:36.09
corporate assaults,
even Religious Freedom issues
00:13:36.10\00:13:39.09
sequestered within the church
community itself have been
00:13:39.10\00:13:41.72
clearly and honestly exposed.
Liberty exists for one purpose,
00:13:41.73\00:13:46.40
to help God's people
maintain that all important
00:13:46.41\00:13:49.80
separation of Church and State,
while recognizing the dangers
00:13:49.81\00:13:53.58
inherent in such a struggle.
During the past century,
00:13:53.59\00:13:56.93
Liberty has experienced
challenges of its own,
00:13:56.94\00:13:59.36
but it remains on the
job. Thanks to the inspired
00:13:59.37\00:14:03.24
leadership of a long line
of dedicated Adventist Editors,
00:14:03.25\00:14:06.01
three of whom represent
almost half of the publications
00:14:06.02\00:14:08.78
existence and the
foresight of a little woman
00:14:08.79\00:14:11.31
from New England. One
hundred years of struggle,
00:14:11.32\00:14:14.79
one hundred years of victories,
Religious Freedom isn't just
00:14:14.80\00:14:18.75
about political machines
and cultural prejudices.
00:14:18.76\00:14:21.85
It's about people fighting
for the right to serve the God
00:14:21.86\00:14:26.09
they love as their hearts
and the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:26.10\00:14:29.98
Thanks to the
prayers and generous support
00:14:29.99\00:14:32.37
of Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere,
00:14:32.38\00:14:34.50
Liberty will continue
to accomplish its work
00:14:34.51\00:14:37.09
of providing timely information,
spirit filled inspiration,
00:14:37.10\00:14:40.28
and heaven sent encouragement
to all who long to live
00:14:40.29\00:14:44.23
and work in a
world bound together
00:14:44.24\00:14:47.01
by the God ordained
bonds of Religious Freedom.
00:14:47.02\00:14:51.03
Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:15:01.33\00:15:03.15
Before the break, I
was talking with guest
00:15:03.16\00:15:05.25
Greg Hamilton
about Religious Liberty
00:15:05.26\00:15:08.95
as relates to US foreign
policy under President Obama.
00:15:08.96\00:15:11.74
They've been some big
changes both in foreign policy
00:15:11.75\00:15:15.43
and in global
events, so Religious Liberty
00:15:15.44\00:15:17.54
is front and center,
it's not just something
00:15:17.55\00:15:19.97
that you can sort of ignore,
but big things are happening
00:15:19.98\00:15:23.27
out there. Oh absolutely.
00:15:23.28\00:15:24.87
And during the break I
was talking to you about
00:15:24.88\00:15:27.31
Samuel
Huntington. He's the founder
00:15:27.32\00:15:28.92
of Foreign Policy
Magazine. He died not long ago,
00:15:28.93\00:15:31.83
you were telling me
too. Yeah, he died just
00:15:31.84\00:15:33.55
a couple of years ago
but he is the one that wrote
00:15:33.56\00:15:35.77
that famous article in
Foreign Affairs Journal
00:15:35.78\00:15:37.64
called "The
Clash Of Civilizations"
00:15:37.65\00:15:40.09
and then he later
rewrote into a book format
00:15:40.10\00:15:43.04
"The Clash Of Civilizations
And Remaking Of World Order."
00:15:43.05\00:15:45.91
I heard him giving a lecture
not too long before he died.
00:15:45.92\00:15:48.47
Fascinating, very
fascinating then I asked
00:15:48.48\00:15:50.86
him a few questions
with I wanted to found out
00:15:50.87\00:15:53.64
if he thought that his
philosophy applied to Iraq
00:15:53.65\00:15:57.10
and all of those events.
If all of the foreign policy
00:15:57.11\00:15:59.59
experts his
philosophy or his point of view
00:15:59.60\00:16:03.72
is still pretty much
on track. The only where,
00:16:03.73\00:16:06.07
the only place he differs.
Well, he didn't like the idea
00:16:06.08\00:16:09.22
in some ways he didn't like
to see it is a full-blown clash.
00:16:09.23\00:16:13.02
Well, he predicted that Islam
in the long run would trump over
00:16:13.03\00:16:19.06
Christianity worldwide in
terms of dominance of Germany
00:16:19.07\00:16:22.68
and all that
stuff. And his obviously
00:16:22.69\00:16:26.10
I think he's wrong,
Philip Jenkins in his book
00:16:26.11\00:16:28.35
"The Next Christendom: The
Coming of Global Christianity"
00:16:28.36\00:16:30.67
Who now is a Professor
at Baylor University said
00:16:30.68\00:16:34.84
that this is nonsense, he
said actually Christianity
00:16:34.85\00:16:37.28
is growing half, half
as fast, if not faster,
00:16:37.29\00:16:41.62
ah well faster
but half more faster,
00:16:41.63\00:16:44.99
how are we gonna say that
then Islam and that by 2050,
00:16:45.00\00:16:49.91
we will still be ahead of
Islam, there is no way Islam
00:16:49.92\00:16:52.64
is ever gonna
catchup. And Huntington says
00:16:52.65\00:16:55.82
that Islam will
dominate because of birthrate
00:16:55.83\00:16:58.93
that they evangelize
or they attempt to conquer
00:16:58.94\00:17:03.49
the world by having
numerous and numerous children
00:17:03.50\00:17:06.89
where as Christians
try to convert through pure
00:17:06.90\00:17:09.06
persuasion and
evangelism. And so he says,
00:17:09.07\00:17:11.32
Christianity losses.
And Philip Jenkins says,
00:17:11.33\00:17:14.13
no, actually the
sense of Christian revival
00:17:14.14\00:17:17.43
and evangelism around the
world especially in the small,
00:17:17.44\00:17:21.20
the home churches
in China is enormous
00:17:22.36\00:17:25.08
it's overtaking the world.
But, where, Huntington is,
00:17:25.09\00:17:28.72
his as right as less on
a violent military clash
00:17:28.73\00:17:33.08
then people shifts and
changes demographic shifts.
00:17:33.09\00:17:36.26
And what he was talking
about I think we see it played
00:17:36.27\00:17:39.10
out before our eyes in Europe,
00:17:39.11\00:17:40.39
we have those
immigrant populations...
00:17:40.40\00:17:43.05
it's not so much breeding,
but they're multiplying
00:17:44.24\00:17:46.64
and holding their culture
and they're just making in roads
00:17:46.65\00:17:51.50
into indigenous culture.
Samuel Huntington is the one
00:17:51.51\00:17:54.56
who emphasize in his book
00:17:54.57\00:17:56.02
"The Clash of Civilizations
and the Remaking of World Order"
00:17:56.03\00:17:58.19
that we ought to take a step
back from the American ideal
00:17:58.20\00:18:00.74
of championing true Religious
Freedom or the American idea
00:18:00.75\00:18:04.50
of Religious Freedom
guaranteed by our constitution.
00:18:04.51\00:18:07.06
That is religious
equality in the law,
00:18:07.07\00:18:08.94
and take a step back to
religious tolerance because.
00:18:08.95\00:18:11.96
I don't realize that. Oh, yeah,
00:18:11.97\00:18:13.08
I've read this stuff that. Yeah.
00:18:13.09\00:18:14.97
Now that would be
a dangerous shift.
00:18:14.98\00:18:17.16
Exactly, exactly, so he
said that we have to move
00:18:17.17\00:18:20.86
towards international
consistence and uses the word
00:18:20.87\00:18:24.25
in that consistence, we
have to learn to tolerate
00:18:24.26\00:18:27.32
each other, okay. And
he goes on and talks about
00:18:27.33\00:18:30.68
religious tolerance but he
said that basically is the model
00:18:30.69\00:18:33.94
that Muslims, the
only model that Muslims
00:18:33.95\00:18:37.13
are gonna
understand to a certain point.
00:18:37.14\00:18:38.93
And whether that's true
or not, remains to seen,
00:18:38.94\00:18:42.85
I don't believe that you
can even get that far with it.
00:18:42.86\00:18:45.02
But in terms of moderate
Islam and this is real question.
00:18:45.03\00:18:49.55
What's a difference
between moderate Islam
00:18:50.49\00:18:52.09
is there such a thing between
moderate Islam and Islamist
00:18:52.10\00:18:55.62
or fundamentalist extremists.
And that distinction is always
00:18:55.63\00:19:00.28
been made and I think
that distinction is true
00:19:00.29\00:19:03.10
to a certain point.
I think it's a cultural
00:19:03.11\00:19:05.23
distinction not a
religious. Yes, I agree.
00:19:05.24\00:19:07.63
There are
people who are moderate
00:19:07.64\00:19:09.86
but they're not moderate Islam.
Then the term I would rather use
00:19:09.87\00:19:13.66
is nominalist. There
are many nominal Muslims
00:19:13.67\00:19:16.37
just as there are many
nominal Christian or Catholics
00:19:16.38\00:19:19.73
because which is the
model of behavior that I...
00:19:19.74\00:19:22.66
Right. Because
Catholicism has medieval.
00:19:22.67\00:19:25.84
Right. Constructs
that brings with it.
00:19:25.85\00:19:27.61
But yes, I think
we're in for a clash
00:19:29.30\00:19:30.89
in going back to Huntington.
I think he was very correct
00:19:30.90\00:19:34.39
into identifying this
before it was self evident
00:19:34.40\00:19:36.65
for most people.
And it may not with me
00:19:36.66\00:19:39.82
that he saw, he
was pushing us toward
00:19:39.83\00:19:41.93
more of accommodationist
view with other religion.
00:19:43.58\00:19:45.53
But it may not be a clash
after all, in my thinking.
00:19:45.54\00:19:48.19
The reason why
Religious Liberty is harmed,
00:19:48.20\00:19:50.83
the American idea
of religious freedom,
00:19:50.84\00:19:52.34
if it takes a step
backwards both internationally
00:19:52.35\00:19:55.05
and eventually,
nationally, domestically.
00:19:55.06\00:19:57.38
Then what happened is you
have this interfaith model
00:19:57.39\00:20:00.70
that supersedes this American
idea of religious equality
00:20:00.71\00:20:04.68
under law. That is
the ability in free
00:20:04.69\00:20:07.29
marketplace of ideas in
capitalistic forms of democracy.
00:20:07.30\00:20:12.90
The ability to
preach, teach, evangelize
00:20:12.91\00:20:16.44
and to change religions
whenever an individual wants to.
00:20:16.45\00:20:21.46
That's not allowed in
the interfaith construct
00:20:21.47\00:20:25.45
or model. And this is the model
00:20:25.46\00:20:28.05
that Samuel
Huntington champions.
00:20:28.06\00:20:30.65
The problem I
have with that model
00:20:30.66\00:20:32.46
which is what President
Obama seems to be championing,
00:20:32.47\00:20:35.89
is yet to be seen, I
mean he may change course
00:20:35.90\00:20:39.05
and who knows. I'm
not sure that he has
00:20:39.06\00:20:42.05
a real solid international
religious freedom policy expert
00:20:42.06\00:20:46.70
in his cabinet.
But, nevertheless,
00:20:46.71\00:20:49.02
it seems that
the way it's going,
00:20:49.03\00:20:51.27
as you see a convergence
of away from religious freedom
00:20:51.28\00:20:56.70
is the model
towards religious tolerance,
00:20:56.71\00:20:58.92
that we tolerate each
other in a state of peaceful
00:20:58.93\00:21:02.35
coexistence. That
international model,
00:21:02.36\00:21:04.82
I'm afraid will end up
being the national model.
00:21:04.83\00:21:07.75
And it maybe the only rational
way in which ecumenically
00:21:07.76\00:21:13.07
unity occurs. We
even see this with
00:21:13.08\00:21:15.80
Pope Benedict the
16th and his latest rounds
00:21:15.81\00:21:20.06
of talks in his
discussions with Muslims.
00:21:20.07\00:21:22.98
Well communism from the very
beginning has always frowned
00:21:22.99\00:21:25.83
upon
proselytization. Sheep stealing.
00:21:25.84\00:21:28.45
Absolutely, and so it does,
00:21:28.46\00:21:31.59
it has tended to see as I said
before religious communities
00:21:31.60\00:21:35.71
is like race, its
something that you have,
00:21:35.72\00:21:37.74
that you are and you
stay. And you can dialogue
00:21:37.75\00:21:41.52
with someone else, but
you never shift from it.
00:21:41.53\00:21:43.26
Yeah. And yes, I think
you are right certainly
00:21:43.27\00:21:46.81
about Obama's foreign
policy. Its predicted on clearly
00:21:46.82\00:21:51.01
not on violence in spite of
the no fly zone at the moment.
00:21:51.02\00:21:55.37
I think it sort
of world that may,
00:21:55.38\00:21:57.88
that can sort of make do
and you down stir this group
00:21:57.89\00:22:02.96
that might be
aggressive. You don't have
00:22:02.97\00:22:05.46
radical
Christianity that bothers Islam.
00:22:05.47\00:22:07.48
You don't have
Buddhism bothering.
00:22:07.49\00:22:08.90
So, it would tend towards
sort of a passive religious
00:22:08.91\00:22:12.73
live and let live
arrangement. Earlier I referred
00:22:12.74\00:22:15.27
to Indonesia and Pancasila,
within Pancasila or this idea
00:22:15.28\00:22:21.52
of peaceful
coexistence that forms the basis
00:22:21.53\00:22:23.80
of Indonesia's constitution,
which is 5 point pillars,
00:22:23.81\00:22:27.23
or basis of their constitution.
You've got Secular Government,
00:22:27.24\00:22:31.20
you've got Sharia
Law, mixed in with the idea
00:22:31.21\00:22:35.38
of Pancasila. So,
you've got all three wedged
00:22:35.39\00:22:38.51
in together. I may
state them earlier about
00:22:38.52\00:22:41.57
Indonesia that they
don't allow others to convert.
00:22:41.58\00:22:45.16
They do allow
conversion reluctantly,
00:22:45.17\00:22:49.65
and I wanna
state this carefully,
00:22:49.66\00:22:51.67
they allow it reluctantly,
but not without cultural
00:22:51.68\00:22:55.02
and severe
implications and persecution.
00:22:55.03\00:22:59.23
If...If... Like I've
said on this program before,
00:22:59.24\00:23:02.25
I remember very plainly
when I was in Indonesia.
00:23:02.26\00:23:06.04
Reading in the newspaper
story of a Hindu couple
00:23:06.05\00:23:12.15
that divorced and
got into a custody battle
00:23:12.16\00:23:15.00
over their children and
the wife converted to Islam,
00:23:15.01\00:23:18.20
because instantly that
meant by law the children
00:23:18.21\00:23:22.03
had to go to her,
because you cannot take
00:23:22.04\00:23:24.00
the children from
an Islamic person.
00:23:24.01\00:23:27.63
And, by law as I remember
someone cannot be allowed
00:23:27.64\00:23:33.09
to convert from Islam. Well.
00:23:33.10\00:23:34.69
Islam is the protected religion.
Islam is the benchmark.
00:23:34.70\00:23:38.08
That's the way
they make do. Okay.
00:23:38.09\00:23:40.37
So, it's not
really reading exchange
00:23:40.38\00:23:41.67
of Religious
Prerogatives. I'm really,
00:23:41.68\00:23:44.58
I am reading
conflicting sources then because
00:23:44.59\00:23:46.60
from what I understand is
that there is a profession
00:23:46.61\00:23:49.12
of that you know
you can convert quietly.
00:23:49.13\00:23:55.62
Well, yes. Otherwise
you will be persecuted.
00:23:55.63\00:23:57.96
Yes, well I mean the
same in Saudi Arabia.
00:23:57.97\00:24:00.48
You're going to be beheaded
if you convert from Islam,
00:24:00.49\00:24:04.29
but I don't doubt that now
and then someone has done it
00:24:04.30\00:24:06.69
without telling anyone.
But that's like any law,
00:24:06.70\00:24:09.36
you can disobey the law
generally and unless it's known
00:24:09.37\00:24:12.60
and then the penalty dissolves.
Then what you are saying
00:24:12.61\00:24:15.03
then complies or
comports with my other research
00:24:15.04\00:24:19.23
which is a the
basis of my paper.
00:24:19.24\00:24:21.25
That going down this Interfaith
path is peaceful coexistence
00:24:21.26\00:24:24.96
of model is very harmful to
religious freedom as we know it.
00:24:24.97\00:24:30.02
And, because if you're
not allowed to convert,
00:24:30.03\00:24:32.87
which seems to be clear
in the Indonesian model,
00:24:32.88\00:24:35.19
then why does President
Obama sight it as the model
00:24:35.20\00:24:38.37
for the rest of Islam.
It could be problematic
00:24:38.38\00:24:40.56
and I wrote an
editorial in Liberty discussing
00:24:40.57\00:24:43.05
this religious freedom
versus freedom of worship.
00:24:43.06\00:24:46.63
And I gave them a pass, I
thought maybe it was just done
00:24:46.64\00:24:50.18
not recognizing the import
of the terms and worst with just
00:24:50.19\00:24:56.42
a desire to placate some of
these mostly Islamic countries,
00:24:56.43\00:25:00.31
but if it's
actually a calculated policy,
00:25:00.32\00:25:02.58
it's very
dangerous, very dangerous.
00:25:02.59\00:25:04.65
Well. Because
religious freedom of worship
00:25:04.66\00:25:07.38
is absolutely
that, you happen just
00:25:07.39\00:25:10.45
freedom of worship was
what the communist allowed.
00:25:10.46\00:25:13.06
And, they hated religion,
they wanted it to die up.
00:25:13.07\00:25:16.09
Earlier on they were prepared
to send people to the Gulags,
00:25:16.10\00:25:19.03
but once that
settled down. It was enough,
00:25:19.04\00:25:20.73
you believe in religion?
Well we'll give a church,
00:25:20.74\00:25:23.43
we'll give you a
time, you worship here,
00:25:23.44\00:25:26.18
you pray here,
but don't dare go out
00:25:26.19\00:25:28.02
and try and spread it,
don't give it to your kids.
00:25:28.03\00:25:29.75
And, eventually you'll
die and that's the end of it.
00:25:29.76\00:25:32.06
What does it suggest
about the future of the unrest
00:25:32.07\00:25:34.42
in the Middle East
right now? It would suggest
00:25:34.43\00:25:36.81
the democratic
reform could take the path
00:25:36.82\00:25:39.54
in unsitting monarchs
and autocratic Presidents
00:25:39.55\00:25:42.80
and dictators, could
take the path of actually
00:25:42.81\00:25:46.28
paving the way it
with good intentions,
00:25:46.29\00:25:50.10
the path toward Sharia
Law dominated in governments
00:25:50.11\00:25:53.95
and Islamist
extremist governments.
00:25:53.96\00:25:55.80
Absolutely there you are
on the same page with me.
00:25:55.81\00:25:58.54
I think well it may not
happen in the first step,
00:25:58.55\00:26:00.93
I think we are on a irrevocable
path toward that sort
00:26:00.94\00:26:04.38
of the construct.
Yes, and it maybe possible
00:26:04.39\00:26:07.35
to have an International
Coalition dealing with such
00:26:07.36\00:26:10.24
governments on
reasonable terms of reference.
00:26:10.25\00:26:12.86
You're right, with a lip service
00:26:12.87\00:26:14.71
to your religion
but don't bring it here.
00:26:14.72\00:26:17.60
So, that in self only is
a self fulfilling prophecy
00:26:17.61\00:26:23.03
as Samuel Huntington's
clashes of civilizations.
00:26:23.04\00:26:25.48
Absolutely. In a
clash of civilizations
00:26:25.49\00:26:27.86
with Samuel Huntington,
we have this idea that all
00:26:27.87\00:26:31.55
civilizations should
learn to tolerate each other.
00:26:31.56\00:26:33.83
But, where does it that take us
in terms of religious tolerance
00:26:33.84\00:26:36.75
as opposed to the
American constitution idea
00:26:36.76\00:26:39.32
of religious
freedom, which is the idea
00:26:39.33\00:26:42.21
of religious equality
for all under the law.
00:26:42.22\00:26:44.49
It was suggest that two choices
we have takes us down road
00:26:44.50\00:26:49.60
of the delimiting
religious freedom all together.
00:26:49.61\00:26:51.44
Freedom of Worship is such
a comforting sounding term.
00:26:52.59\00:26:56.79
But, for those of us that
work with religious liberty,
00:26:56.80\00:27:00.06
we know that freedom of religion
is another thing entirely
00:27:00.07\00:27:05.03
from freedom of worship. Of
course we all want to worship
00:27:05.04\00:27:09.50
and acknowledge God
and every one needs to be
00:27:09.51\00:27:13.41
convinced and committed in
their own heart and serve God
00:27:13.42\00:27:16.63
with their mind. But
when we are talking about
00:27:16.64\00:27:19.49
a civil construct and how
we put that into practice.
00:27:19.50\00:27:22.35
Freedom of religion
embraces everything,
00:27:23.23\00:27:25.32
that embraces public
prayers, private prayers,
00:27:25.33\00:27:28.26
that embraces teaching
my children about religion,
00:27:28.27\00:27:31.17
that embraces public witness,
that embraces telling someone
00:27:31.18\00:27:35.09
else about God and bringing
them to a conviction and a faith
00:27:35.10\00:27:39.35
action of their
own. Freedom of Worship
00:27:39.36\00:27:42.57
can be as simple
as just worshiping God
00:27:42.58\00:27:45.07
in a designated place
and at a designated time.
00:27:45.08\00:27:48.34
We need leaders who understand
that distinction and argue
00:27:48.35\00:27:52.01
for it not just in this
country, the United States,
00:27:52.02\00:27:54.69
but across the world and in
any system and in any place,
00:27:54.70\00:27:58.90
freedom of religion is
primary. We must serve God.
00:27:58.91\00:28:04.65
For liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:06.10\00:28:09.13