Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Melissa Reid
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000127
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider. This is the
00:25 program that brings you news, views, discussion 00:28 and information on Religious Liberty 00:31 concerns in the United States and around 00:33 the world. My name is Lincoln Steed editor 00:35 of the Liberty Magazine, and my guest 00:38 on the program is Melissa Reid, associate 00:40 editor for Liberty Magazine. Thanks for 00:42 being on this program Melissa. Thank you, 00:44 it's a pleasure to be here. Let's discuss 00:46 something that's been in the news already 00:49 in 2011. In fact almost was the first day 00:52 on East Day in Cairo, a Coptic church and many 00:58 people in the United States probably never 00:59 heard of Copts, who are the Copts. Right. 01:02 You know we were joking with someone 01:03 a few minutes ago back they are cops and 01:05 robbers. But this is Copts, these are Coptic 01:11 Christians, not tiny little invisible sect 01:17 or abhorrent offshoot of Christianity. 01:20 Now this is a group of Christians that 01:22 broke fairly early on in Christianity at the 01:25 Council of Chalcedon. Okay. There was 01:28 a big dispute with Rome and the Eastern 01:33 Church over with the, this is ancient history 01:37 most people don't know whether Jesus with 01:41 the Mary rather was the mother of Jesus or 01:44 the mother of God. Okay. It sounds like 01:48 semantics but a lot of writing on it 01:50 because with the Roman Catholic Church staying 01:52 with Jesus with keep saying Jesus, with Mary 01:56 as the mother of God. That almost defies her 02:00 and now she's worshipped in her own rite 02:03 and that even have developed the doctrine 02:05 of the Immaculate Conception for her, 02:09 but I think it's more Biblical myself but 02:12 certainly just a matter of history that the 02:13 copts insisted that know she was as the Bible 02:17 said a young woman who was the mother 02:21 of the human entity that was Jesus but 02:24 by no means herself connected the deity. 02:28 Right. So it was the vehicle for her. Right. 02:30 So they separated them and they were 02:32 the majority, the very word copts anciently 02:36 really just meant Egyptian. Okay, right, 02:38 yeah and so spend a long, there been part 02:41 of the Egyptian landscape. 02:43 Of course they were, they predated the copt 02:47 presence and the majority presence in Egypt 02:50 predated the coming of Islam. Okay. Islam 02:53 took it over by Count Press. Right, and now, 02:55 now they are down to about 10 percent 02:57 of the population. Disputed, I read quite 03:00 a few sources on a some official sources 03:03 even put them as low as five, ten seems 03:05 to be a fairly safe little bit. But because 03:07 they are under the frown of the government 03:08 and society it could even be high as twenty 03:11 percent these reasons to keep it low but 03:13 it's good safe ten percent, right, which is 03:15 a significant number of people. Right. 03:19 They generally worship fairly freely I mean 03:24 they are under the societal frown if you like 03:27 but these laws protecting their existence 03:29 as well. But an East Day as you know as 03:33 we have discussed that before there was 03:34 a horrible incident that was preceded by 03:38 mysterious goings on with scudo, I think 03:41 there was a scudo vehicle upfront there over 03:43 with agents, Islamic agents specking up the 03:46 church and threats mails and so on. There 03:49 were some websites where they had been 03:51 postings of actually alerting or encouraging 03:56 people to bomb particular churches and this 03:59 was one of them. Yes, so it was not out 04:01 of the thin blue sky or but still such a horrific 04:06 thing that most people couldn't have 04:08 imagined it where twenty one people were killed. 04:11 Right. Any number of wounded. Ninety seven 04:14 they said. Horrendous, and again it's not in 04:19 out of the clue blue sky because this is 04:20 in the context of upcoming presidential 04:23 elections in Egypt. Right. So what seen is 04:25 a way to cow the cups into political obscurity, 04:30 right, to signal to the larger population that 04:34 in these upcoming elections the Islamist 04:36 party are the dominant one because they 04:38 are warning Sharia law to be incorporated. 04:44 Right. And then as we discussed it another 04:47 program I think significantly, 04:48 this probably was the general poke in the eye 04:51 to Christians sensibilities worldwide 04:53 and that same day the Pope of Rome of 04:57 course differing on major points from Coptics 04:59 but having a general Christian empathy 05:02 for them and he gave a speech on Religious 05:04 Liberty and mentioned prosecution 05:06 against Christians in Iraq. Iraq! 05:09 And elsewhere and yeah this happens. 05:10 Yeah there is a lot some already and just 05:12 having this conversation here between other 05:15 situation in Egypt for Christians and the 05:17 situation in Iraq for Christians. I know 05:19 that our magazine Liberty Magazine has done 05:21 a story profiling Christian prosecution 05:24 in Iraq and I remember one call what's saying 05:28 the only thing that the Sunnis and the Shia 05:29 can agree on us as how much they hate the 05:31 Christians. Yeah. And again I think population 05:35 wise there is this similarities in that, 05:37 you know in Iraq the Christians have 05:39 basically been driven out of the country and 05:43 it seems that's what is going on Egypt as well. 05:46 you know they certainly have the minority 05:48 religion and are thought of, they are not just 05:53 a minority in size but as far as there sort of 05:58 people's feeling their right to exists almost 06:01 or their right you know they are very, 06:03 they are not favored here. But they are 06:05 politically empowered; they are imagined 06:06 large in society and in public love. And 06:10 something else that we need to state that 06:12 preceded this event which I hope that didn't 06:15 precipitated. There was an ongoing dispute about 06:18 two supposed Muslim young women that had 06:22 been forcibly detained and were converted to 06:26 Christianity. And I went and checked on this 06:29 there were many Muslim sites that claimed 06:31 this that there was an abduction of Muslim 06:33 women. Interesting in the Islamic world from 06:37 the Western point of view women are not 06:39 treated as they should be and yet here this 06:43 is a great insult. Right. But we checked 06:46 on the Coptic sites and they claim they were 06:48 not Muslims at all they were the wives of two 06:50 Coptic priests. Okay. So where is the truth but 06:57 even if it were an individual situation that 07:02 was offensive still does it justify this open 07:05 violence and certainly doesn't justify how 07:10 people's being put in the shadows like that. 07:12 Right, absolutely now from the reports that 07:14 I heard and I don't know if this was the 07:17 government being more anxious as far with 07:19 the upcoming elections or if this is actually 07:21 more documented. They are thinking that it was 07:25 outside sources meaning non-Egyptian, 07:28 is that what they were Thank you for leading me. 07:30 Okay. They would like to say that because 07:35 then it is less cop ability for Egypt. Right. 07:38 But there is a long record of the 07:43 marginalization and indeed open 07:44 prosecution of the Copts. Yes. Shortly and 07:47 Liberty Magazine will have a couple of articles 07:49 at least on this and one of the articles I had 07:52 for years, okay, and it's not something that 07:55 was related to particular incident but out line 07:58 the overall treatment and I am going to team 08:01 that with this latest story. Okay. So, you 08:05 know that there is something very long 08:08 standing on this and we need to tell people 08:11 what's happening that there is an internal 08:14 conflict, it's not something introduced. 08:17 And what we need to keep in mind and I give 08:20 the disclaimer to that we know that all Muslims 08:25 just like all of any group don't subscribe 08:30 to the most extreme manifestations 08:32 in this case of violence and prejudice. But as 08:35 far as Egypt and it's relationship with the 08:39 Copts and what way this comes from it's 08:42 worth remembering that the Muslim 08:44 Brotherhood which is the ideological engine 08:48 driving Global Islamification and 08:52 Radical Islam. The Muslim Brotherhood 08:54 is a home grown Egyptian movement, 08:58 it's not you know while boys on the corner 09:02 they just want to make some trouble. These 09:04 it's deeply entrenched collision of 09:08 top professionals, ideologues, intellectuals 09:13 who have a plan for the Global Zihaad 09:16 and the global color faith which is 09:19 establishing the global collision of Islamic 09:22 nations. This comes from Egypt and it's not 09:25 by accident that President Hosni Mubarak 09:30 had imprisoned many of their leaders, they 09:33 had been illegal, I am not sure they are 09:35 technically, absolutely illegal at the movement 09:37 but they are still forbidden to help public 09:39 office. But many, many independence 09:43 poor Islamists are running for office 09:45 and it's a common knowledge that these 09:47 independents are Muslim Brotherhood, 09:50 they are candidates. So there is a direct 09:53 push to clinch the deal for Egypt in the passage 09:58 from Hosni Mubarak's direct rather autocratic 10:02 rule to what they see as an Islamic state. 10:06 Okay, well you know, in a previous show we 10:09 talked about this, we talked about defamation 10:12 of religion and we were talking specifically 10:15 about Pakistan in a situation there. But 10:18 in reading about that situation we've learned 10:20 that Egypt is another country with defamation 10:25 of religion as a law against defamation of 10:27 religion. Yeah, yeah. And again we see a country 10:30 with a very strong Christians, or a very 10:35 Christian minority. Well strong Christian 10:37 presence. Yes, but a strong Islamic 10:42 Foundation as far as. Oh, yes, yes, it's 10:45 in fact Egypt is not Islam, but as far 10:49 as Islamic nations. Egypt led the collision 10:53 against Israel a couple of times and tried 10:57 to lead a game when President Sadat 11:01 made an independent peace with Israel 11:05 which led to his assassination at 11:08 the hands of the Muslim Brotherhood. 11:10 It was Muslim Brotherhood cell group among 11:15 the military officers that killed him. Okay. 11:17 So, we still seeing work out a very extreme 11:20 afford to take over Egypt which is strongly 11:23 Islamic, no question, culturally, 11:27 it's overwhelmingly Islamic at the moment. 11:29 But it is has not been in recent years a 11:34 doctrinaire Islamic state. And in fact Egypt, 11:39 Cairo itself is a very cosmopolitan city 11:43 very open minded and the irony is that hardcore 11:46 states like Saudi Arabia, the elites that who 11:50 will not drink or smoke or eat pork or do all 11:54 of the things that are prescribed by Islam. 11:57 They go to Cairo to do that that. Oh that's 11:59 there Las Vegas. Yes. So, Egypt you know 12:03 we're seeing a problem here but it's actually 12:05 a country very much at play. Okay. 12:08 And the yearning to be open and pluralistic 12:12 and free on religion and the call to 12:16 fundamentalism, it's in this way, we'll come 12:19 after the break and discuss this further, 12:21 very interesting developments 12:23 in the Middle East in Egypt. 12:33 One-hundred years, a long time to do anything 12:37 much less publish a magazine, but 12:39 this year Liberty, the Seventh-day 12:42 Adventist voice of religious freedom, 12:44 celebrates one hundred years of doing what 12:46 it does best, collecting, analyzing, and reporting 12:50 the ebb and flow of religious expression 12:52 around the world. Issue after issues. Liberty 12:56 has taken on the tough assignments, 12:57 tracking down threats to religious freedom 13:00 and exposing the work of the devil in every 13:02 corner of the globe. Governmental 13:04 interference, personal attacks, corporate 13:07 assaults, even religious freedom issues 13:09 sequestered within the church community 13:11 itself have been clearly and honestly exposed. 13:14 Liberty exists for one purpose, to help God's 13:18 people maintain that all important separation 13:20 of Church and State, while recognizing the 13:23 dangers inherent in such a struggle. During 13:26 the past century, Liberty has experienced 13:28 challenges of its own, but it remains on the 13:31 job. Thanks to the inspired leadership 13:34 of a long line of dedicated Adventist 13:36 editors, three of whom represent almost half 13:38 of the publications' existence and the 13:40 foresight of a little woman from New 13:42 England. One hundred years of struggle, 13:45 one hundred years of victories, religious 13:48 freedom isn't just about political machines 13:50 and cultural prejudices. It's about people, 13:53 fighting for the right to serve the God they 13:56 love as their hearts and the Holy Spirit 13:59 dictate. Thanks to the prayers and generous 14:02 support of Seventh-Day Adventists 14:04 everywhere. Liberty will continue to accomplish 14:07 its work of providing timely information, 14:09 spirit filled inspiration, and heaven sent 14:11 encouragement to all who long to live 14:14 and work in a world bound together by the 14:17 God ordained bonds of religious freedom. 14:28 Welcome back to Liberty insider before the break 14:30 with guest Melissa Reid and I am Lincoln Steed 14:33 and we both on this show we both from Liberty 14:36 Magazine. I am the editor and she is the 14:38 associate editor. We've been talking about 14:40 horrific events in Egypt. Most particularly 14:45 massacre of Coptic Christians they on the 14:49 East Day. Yes. But we were pointing 14:50 out these a part of vaguer pattern 14:51 doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, unfortunately 14:54 it seems like Christianity is becoming 14:57 less and less welcome in the Middle East. 15:00 There always been unfortunate conflict 15:06 between Christians and Muslims and who and 15:09 admire this program to say that any one group 15:12 has a corner on in tolerance or tolerance, 15:15 but its an undeniable fact of history that 15:18 Islam in it's expansion which into that area 15:21 was largely by the sword moved up and 15:24 displaced Christians from Egypt because it 15:27 was majority Christian when they came but 15:30 now the tables have turned and so Copts 15:33 are really on the final stages of just a societal 15:37 tension there. Alright. Plus I believe we've seen 15:41 the worldwide a kick back of the Islamic world 15:45 against what they see as the globalization and 15:47 more importantly perhaps the globalization 15:50 that is empowered Christianity they object 15:53 so they are, they are pushing back. Right! 15:55 Well you know it's interesting we just 15:57 recently covered the so called 9/11 mosque 16:01 in New York and number one it's you know 16:06 actually not a mosque and it's community 16:07 centre that we talked about and we also talked 16:09 about that it's not right on the 9/11 grounds 16:11 and it can be looked back. And Liberty 16:13 Magazine defended their right under U.S. laws, 16:16 exactly, learning laws, and now separation 16:17 of churches, exactly and so on. But I think 16:19 what's interesting is a lot of people that are 16:22 offended by or critical of the building that it's 16:26 you know one might be in perhaps in poor taste, 16:29 but we had ate least one gentlemen say 16:31 I can't go to Iran and build a mosque there 16:36 and I think it's interesting 16:38 unfortunately that's true as far as I think that 16:43 Western Europe and United States is lot 16:45 more welcoming to the Islamic religion or 16:49 a Muslims than unfortunately 16:51 Christianity is welcomed even though 16:53 it has that history, now we don't have 16:56 that same freedom. And it's an unfortunate 16:59 mismatch and because Islam doesn't see that 17:02 welcoming nature as a strength of Christianity, 17:05 they see it as a weakness. They see 17:07 it is a religion that's not even sure of 17:09 itself. And they have accepted because the 17:12 Quran is quite specific on that is the one true 17:15 religion and Muhammad you know there 17:17 is one Allah and Muhammad is His prophet 17:19 and that's the right to belief that, but when 17:21 that is acted upon by the whole group of 17:24 the people it can become very deleterious 17:27 for pluralism. Right, and again that's why we 17:30 appreciate that separation at church 17:31 and stay. Absolutely. Because I believe 17:33 that might that you know the Jesus is my 17:36 savior and that you know there is one true 17:38 religion through Him and through His grace and 17:40 mercy. But I certainly don't believe it's my 17:43 government's right to enforce that in anyway. 17:46 Now viewers probably don't think they could 17:49 watch this program to get the answer to every 17:51 problem but I'll try to play if not prophet than 17:56 prognosticator of this huge battle. How we can 18:00 resolve this now open conflict between at least 18:03 the radical active, radicals maybe a wrong 18:06 word, the super activist version of Islam and 18:10 what they see as the Christian world, 18:12 how we can resolve that I don't really know it in 18:14 every phase, it's a massive. I don't think 18:17 anyone knows. Defense secretary Rumsfeld 18:21 once said that the war on terrorism slash 18:23 Islamic fundamentalism will last there lifetime. 18:26 So it's so open ended you can imagine. 18:28 But I believe if it's any secret to at least 18:31 turning it back, it is to work you know we 18:35 can't change easily the minds of the whole 18:37 populations an Islam is what Islam is, and 18:40 it's not our right to force a religion to turn 18:43 it's back on it's tenets because I think that's 18:45 what it stake here. Islam has certain viewpoints 18:48 that are built into the Quran, and so to ask them 18:51 to become so moderate that they disregard 18:53 their holy book is a little bit of a stretch. 18:55 Right. But I think in our dealings and in our 18:58 pressure on countries we can work through 19:00 many means to make sure that they have 19:02 a separation of church in stake. Right. In their 19:05 country and once we cross, allow them to 19:08 cross the line to Sharia Law. Right. It's 19:11 all over. Would you explain to our viewers 19:13 what Sharia Law? Sharia Law is ia whole 19:15 body of Islamic law that derives from the 19:19 Quran directly and the Quran is not their only 19:23 holy writings. Quran is fairly small, it's 19:26 supposedly well I mean by their belief this 19:29 is the Angel Gabriel's direct words of 19:33 revelation to Muhammad. Then they have 19:35 the hadiths which are like the Gospels, these 19:39 are the records of Muhammad's teaching and 19:41 His life and some of His followers and hadiths 19:44 go and this, some by other His Holy historical 19:47 figure and so on, there's a whole body of that 19:49 plus a sort of Islamic tradition. And from all 19:52 of that they get rules of behavior of governance 19:55 called the Sharia. And the best parallel to our 20:00 Christians and Judace background this is 20:05 the laws of Leviticus Deuteronomy, 20:08 not all sarmad. Again some of them were sort 20:17 of a Jewish adaptation of the Laws of Hammurabi 20:20 and so on. Sure. These are very particular 20:22 just laws of governance. Yes, yes. And so 20:25 once they bring that in that means that rather 20:27 than the judiciary or a constitution controlling 20:32 things that such a country, it's the 20:33 imams the religious rulers interpreting the 20:37 Quran and the hadiths so they run the direct 20:39 church rule. So is in just that you mixed 20:42 church's state in actuality you have given 20:44 absolute control to the church authorities. 20:48 Right, right, so you certainly would not want 20:50 to be a minority religion in that sort of 20:52 situation. No, no. Yeah. And so you need to 20:57 have non Muslims judged by the same rules 21:00 which of course we've discussed blissfully 21:02 before, right, and the way you got an 21:04 intractable problem. Yeah. But you then to 21:08 things like an arm cut off for stealing and 21:12 death by the stoning or beheading for adultery 21:16 and things like this, right, just out there 21:17 scenario. Well certainly as a woman I would 21:19 feel it would be difficult probably to 21:21 exist as I exist now in society under that 21:24 sort of law. Right, exactly. But back to my 21:30 point I don't see how we can force the 21:32 change with how the religion can put 21:37 itself in it's mosques or how it looks it's holy 21:40 books. But we can have acquired some 21:44 influence through treaties and 21:47 international contacts and support of different 21:50 factions with you know divvying for power to 21:53 make sure that they maintain a separable 21:56 not maintain either reach for or if they 21:59 haven't maintained the separation of church 22:01 and state. And of course to be, to be to fair 22:04 Islamic world we are doing the same here. 22:06 Right, right. It's a good model everywhere. 22:09 Yes well, you know it's interesting and I 22:11 don't recall if we mentioned this in 22:12 previous show or not we were talking about 22:14 an activist from Pakistan and her work for 22:18 human rights and for religious freedom 22:20 specifically and we talked about how those 22:22 interfaith dialogues were important but she was 22:26 saying there just not the mood there in Pakistan 22:29 and I think that they might be true in lot of 22:31 Middle Eastern situations where there's not 22:33 even, you can't even have those dialogues. 22:36 People are not yet ready to have those 22:38 conversations. Well then just not ready and 22:40 we may be going backwards I believe. We 22:41 are in a very reactionary time, yeah, in much 22:45 of the world unlike in Turkey which has been 22:48 thought of, in my lifetime and your 22:50 lifetime as a westernized country. 22:53 It's a native ally and wanted to be the part 22:57 of the European Union and may still 22:59 undoubtedly, but in Turkey they are calling 23:02 Kemal Ataturk, the founder of modern 23:04 Turkey, the Jew that's the attack against it 23:09 but he was a Jewish agent that subverted Islam. 23:12 Oh. So there are in such historical revisionism 23:15 that they are throwing over their own heritage 23:19 as the religious few point comes to 23:21 the fore. Let's shift gears a little bit we 23:23 only have three or four minutes left but 23:26 it is worth mentioning when we talk about 23:29 separation of church and state. In the Untied 23:31 States the first amendment is sort of the 23:34 crown jewels on that Congress will make no law 23:37 rather regarding the establishment of religion 23:39 nor preventing the free exercise. We told freely 23:42 about our constitution protection, but what did 23:45 you think the other day in the U.S. Congress, 23:47 right, they took a little time to read the 23:50 constitution. Right, and I think that's the 23:52 first time if they have done that, at my memory, 23:54 yeah; I believe it was the first time, 23:56 well I didn't hear the reading of the 23:58 constitution because I was there as workday 23:59 and I was busy how it worked? But I did 24:02 hear the commentary afterwards and it 24:04 was interesting to me first of all that what 24:09 I understood this sort of strongest reaction is 24:12 when the Congressman from Georgia who 24:16 was involved in sovereign rights movement 24:17 read the section giving right Afghan Americans 24:22 the right to vote and that was quite I think 24:24 there was a standing ovation or applause 24:26 or whatever which was a very, very appropriate, 24:28 but then I heard that they read the section 24:32 that gave women the right to vote. And 24:34 there was no, I think, no, no response 24:37 what so ever at all. But also then going back 24:40 to the Afghan Americans they left out certain 24:43 parts. One of the group, yeah, it was most 24:45 telling because they missed out that; they 24:47 missed out in that regard the influence of 24:50 four-fifths. I think its three-fifths, yeah, 24:53 three-fifths percentage, because, yeah. And what 24:56 I saw was, was well backup a bit, for years 25:01 I have heard people say all the constitution 25:03 we want to build our constitution, right, 25:04 that is expected for a long time. Yes. 25:06 People don't really know, yes, what's in the 25:07 constitution, yes, yes, and then when it's 25:09 brought up it's so pertinently obvious 25:11 that it is what it is which is a human 25:14 document, right, formed by history and 25:17 improved by amendments. Yes, yes. They just 25:21 want to read the amendment and then we 25:23 want to expose that they need them to improve 25:25 them. Yes. We are in an American Experiment 25:28 that used to be called which is the inheritor 25:31 of the whole Christian society, the development 25:35 of the reaffirmation, of the enlightenment, 25:37 of a struggle for independence from 25:39 England and so on. It is in spite of what 25:42 intendance clear and other say it's a living 25:45 document, right, right, making a lot of sense 25:47 that some would claim. Right. And we need to 25:49 see at that way but on Religious Liberty 25:51 I believe we need to see that our higher 25:54 calling in Religious Liberty is took 25:55 principles that God's enumerated it just a 25:58 happy happen stands, yes, with this constitution 26:01 that supports that. Right, right, we talked 26:04 about in our previous show that we have 26:06 the Religious Liberty campaign every year. 26:08 And we have mentioned that this year, 26:10 our campaign theme is Christ-Centered 26:13 Liberty. And I think that absolutely Ecko Wadley 26:16 he gonna saying here that as an Americans 26:20 were so grateful for the constitution 26:22 it was a nice reminder to have it read to us. 26:24 Although some areas were left out you know 26:29 unfortunately I think in this current day 26:31 and age we don't we are not as aware of what 26:35 actually the constitution consists of and so it's 26:39 probably a nice reminder to hear at that way. 26:41 And but we do know that as far as religious 26:44 freedom goes that is the ultimate gift 26:47 from God our original creator. 26:51 In thinking about modern Egypt it's worth 26:53 remembering that Ancient Egypt was a 26:55 welcoming culture for the stranger and 26:57 someone with the different religious view 26:59 point. Remember Jesus and His family sheltered 27:03 there from Harold's persecution until He was 27:05 able to return to Nazareth after Harold's 27:10 death. Today, the United States, Egypt and 27:15 many countries around the world are being 27:18 forced to look again at how they will enable 27:22 religious pluralism and avoid religious 27:24 persecution. Egypt needs to avoid the calls to the 27:28 Sharia law. In the United States as we have 27:32 looked so publicly again at the U.S. constitution 27:35 it's worth remembering yes that there are 27:38 guarantees for the religious freedom. 27:40 The first amendment has worked very well; 27:44 separation of church in state is not anti guard 27:47 it is respecting the things of God in the 27:50 spiritual Rome keeping them there and leaving 27:53 the state to administer the civil side of 27:56 daily life. We are in a time of great stress but 28:00 we need to remember these basic absolutes 28:03 of the past. This is Lincoln Steed 28:06 for Liberty Insider. |
Revised 2014-12-17