Welcome to the
Liberty Insider. This is the
00:00:22.98\00:00:25.50
program that brings
you news, views, discussion
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and information
on Religious Liberty
00:00:28.23\00:00:31.01
concerns in the
United States and around
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the world. My name
is Lincoln Steed editor
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of the Liberty
Magazine, and my guest
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on the program is
Melissa Reid, associate
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editor for Liberty
Magazine. Thanks for
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being on this
program Melissa. Thank you,
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it's a pleasure to
be here. Let's discuss
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something that's
been in the news already
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in 2011. In fact
almost was the first day
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on East Day in Cairo,
a Coptic church and many
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people in the United
States probably never
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heard of Copts, who
are the Copts. Right.
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You know we were
joking with someone
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a few minutes ago
back they are cops and
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robbers. But this is
Copts, these are Coptic
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Christians, not tiny
little invisible sect
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or abhorrent
offshoot of Christianity.
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Now this is a
group of Christians that
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broke fairly early on
in Christianity at the
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Council of
Chalcedon. Okay. There was
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a big dispute with
Rome and the Eastern
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Church over with the,
this is ancient history
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most people don't
know whether Jesus with
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the Mary rather was
the mother of Jesus or
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the mother of God.
Okay. It sounds like
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semantics but a
lot of writing on it
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because with the Roman
Catholic Church staying
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with Jesus with keep
saying Jesus, with Mary
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as the mother of God.
That almost defies her
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and now she's
worshipped in her own rite
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and that even have
developed the doctrine
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of the Immaculate
Conception for her,
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but I think it's
more Biblical myself but
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certainly just a
matter of history that the
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copts insisted that
know she was as the Bible
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said a young
woman who was the mother
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of the human
entity that was Jesus but
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by no means herself
connected the deity.
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Right. So it was the
vehicle for her. Right.
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So they separated
them and they were
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the majority, the
very word copts anciently
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really just meant
Egyptian. Okay, right,
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yeah and so spend a
long, there been part
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of the Egyptian landscape.
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Of course they were,
they predated the copt
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presence and the
majority presence in Egypt
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predated the coming
of Islam. Okay. Islam
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took it over by Count
Press. Right, and now,
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now they are down
to about 10 percent
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of the population.
Disputed, I read quite
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a few sources on a
some official sources
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even put them as
low as five, ten seems
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to be a fairly safe
little bit. But because
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they are under the
frown of the government
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and society it could
even be high as twenty
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percent these
reasons to keep it low but
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it's good safe ten
percent, right, which is
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a significant
number of people. Right.
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They generally
worship fairly freely I mean
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they are under the
societal frown if you like
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but these laws
protecting their existence
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as well. But an
East Day as you know as
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we have discussed
that before there was
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a horrible incident
that was preceded by
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mysterious goings
on with scudo, I think
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there was a scudo
vehicle upfront there over
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with agents, Islamic
agents specking up the
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church and threats
mails and so on. There
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were some websites
where they had been
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postings of actually
alerting or encouraging
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people to bomb
particular churches and this
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was one of them.
Yes, so it was not out
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of the thin blue sky or
but still such a horrific
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thing that most
people couldn't have
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imagined it where
twenty one people were killed.
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Right. Any number of
wounded. Ninety seven
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they said. Horrendous,
and again it's not in
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out of the clue
blue sky because this is
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in the context of
upcoming presidential
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elections in Egypt.
Right. So what seen is
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a way to cow the cups
into political obscurity,
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right, to signal to
the larger population that
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in these upcoming
elections the Islamist
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party are the
dominant one because they
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are warning Sharia
law to be incorporated.
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Right. And then as
we discussed it another
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program I think significantly,
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this probably was the
general poke in the eye
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to Christians
sensibilities worldwide
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and that same day
the Pope of Rome of
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course differing on
major points from Coptics
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but having a
general Christian empathy
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for them and he gave
a speech on Religious
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Liberty and
mentioned prosecution
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against
Christians in Iraq. Iraq!
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And elsewhere and
yeah this happens.
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Yeah there is a lot
some already and just
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having this
conversation here between other
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situation in Egypt
for Christians and the
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situation in Iraq
for Christians. I know
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that our magazine
Liberty Magazine has done
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a story profiling
Christian prosecution
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in Iraq and I
remember one call what's saying
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the only thing that
the Sunnis and the Shia
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can agree on us as
how much they hate the
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Christians. Yeah. And
again I think population
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wise there is this
similarities in that,
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you know in Iraq
the Christians have
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basically been driven
out of the country and
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it seems that's what
is going on Egypt as well.
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you know they
certainly have the minority
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religion and are
thought of, they are not just
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a minority in size but
as far as there sort of
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people's feeling
their right to exists almost
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or their right you
know they are very,
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they are not
favored here. But they are
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politically
empowered; they are imagined
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large in society
and in public love. And
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something else that
we need to state that
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preceded this event
which I hope that didn't
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precipitated. There was
an ongoing dispute about
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two supposed Muslim
young women that had
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been forcibly
detained and were converted to
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Christianity. And I
went and checked on this
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there were many
Muslim sites that claimed
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this that there was
an abduction of Muslim
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women. Interesting in
the Islamic world from
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the Western point
of view women are not
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treated as they
should be and yet here this
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is a great insult.
Right. But we checked
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on the Coptic sites
and they claim they were
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not Muslims at all
they were the wives of two
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Coptic priests. Okay.
So where is the truth but
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even if it were an
individual situation that
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was offensive still
does it justify this open
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violence and
certainly doesn't justify how
00:07:05.56\00:07:10.00
people's being put in
the shadows like that.
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Right, absolutely
now from the reports that
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I heard and I don't
know if this was the
00:07:14.85\00:07:17.50
government being
more anxious as far with
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the upcoming
elections or if this is actually
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more documented. They
are thinking that it was
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outside sources
meaning non-Egyptian,
00:07:25.23\00:07:28.77
is that what they were
Thank you for leading me.
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Okay. They would
like to say that because
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then it is less cop
ability for Egypt. Right.
00:07:35.40\00:07:38.71
But there is a
long record of the
00:07:38.72\00:07:43.34
marginalization and indeed open
00:07:43.35\00:07:44.91
prosecution of the
Copts. Yes. Shortly and
00:07:44.92\00:07:47.46
Liberty Magazine will
have a couple of articles
00:07:47.47\00:07:49.88
at least on this and
one of the articles I had
00:07:49.89\00:07:52.65
for years, okay, and
it's not something that
00:07:52.66\00:07:55.01
was related to
particular incident but out line
00:07:55.02\00:07:58.79
the overall treatment
and I am going to team
00:07:58.80\00:08:01.40
that with this
latest story. Okay. So, you
00:08:01.41\00:08:05.42
know that there is
something very long
00:08:05.43\00:08:08.19
standing on this and
we need to tell people
00:08:08.20\00:08:11.50
what's happening
that there is an internal
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conflict, it's not
something introduced.
00:08:14.58\00:08:17.36
And what we need to
keep in mind and I give
00:08:17.37\00:08:20.39
the disclaimer to that
we know that all Muslims
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just like all of any
group don't subscribe
00:08:25.58\00:08:30.08
to the most
extreme manifestations
00:08:30.09\00:08:32.66
in this case of
violence and prejudice. But as
00:08:32.67\00:08:35.75
far as Egypt and
it's relationship with the
00:08:35.76\00:08:39.23
Copts and what way
this comes from it's
00:08:39.24\00:08:42.62
worth
remembering that the Muslim
00:08:42.63\00:08:44.73
Brotherhood which is
the ideological engine
00:08:44.74\00:08:48.64
driving Global
Islamification and
00:08:48.65\00:08:52.24
Radical Islam.
The Muslim Brotherhood
00:08:52.25\00:08:54.51
is a home grown
Egyptian movement,
00:08:54.52\00:08:57.69
it's not you know
while boys on the corner
00:08:58.97\00:09:02.22
they just want to
make some trouble. These
00:09:02.23\00:09:04.93
it's deeply
entrenched collision of
00:09:04.94\00:09:07.97
top professionals,
ideologues, intellectuals
00:09:07.98\00:09:11.63
who have a plan
for the Global Zihaad
00:09:13.51\00:09:16.77
and the global
color faith which is
00:09:16.78\00:09:19.34
establishing the
global collision of Islamic
00:09:19.35\00:09:22.67
nations. This comes
from Egypt and it's not
00:09:22.68\00:09:25.89
by accident that
President Hosni Mubarak
00:09:25.90\00:09:30.43
had imprisoned many
of their leaders, they
00:09:30.44\00:09:32.97
had been illegal, I
am not sure they are
00:09:32.98\00:09:35.47
technically, absolutely
illegal at the movement
00:09:35.48\00:09:37.63
but they are still
forbidden to help public
00:09:37.64\00:09:39.88
office. But
many, many independence
00:09:39.89\00:09:43.72
poor Islamists
are running for office
00:09:43.73\00:09:45.80
and it's a common
knowledge that these
00:09:45.81\00:09:47.41
independents are
Muslim Brotherhood,
00:09:47.42\00:09:50.95
they are
candidates. So there is a direct
00:09:50.96\00:09:53.74
push to clinch the deal
for Egypt in the passage
00:09:53.75\00:09:58.74
from Hosni Mubarak's
direct rather autocratic
00:09:58.75\00:10:02.47
rule to what they
see as an Islamic state.
00:10:02.48\00:10:06.39
Okay, well you know,
in a previous show we
00:10:06.40\00:10:09.46
talked about this, we
talked about defamation
00:10:09.47\00:10:12.09
of religion and we
were talking specifically
00:10:12.10\00:10:15.19
about Pakistan in a
situation there. But
00:10:15.20\00:10:18.29
in reading about that
situation we've learned
00:10:18.30\00:10:20.84
that Egypt is another
country with defamation
00:10:20.85\00:10:24.97
of religion as a law
against defamation of
00:10:24.98\00:10:27.85
religion. Yeah, yeah.
And again we see a country
00:10:27.86\00:10:30.91
with a very strong
Christians, or a very
00:10:30.92\00:10:35.44
Christian minority.
Well strong Christian
00:10:35.45\00:10:37.67
presence. Yes,
but a strong Islamic
00:10:37.68\00:10:42.91
Foundation as far
as. Oh, yes, yes, it's
00:10:42.92\00:10:45.80
in fact Egypt is
not Islam, but as far
00:10:45.81\00:10:49.70
as Islamic nations.
Egypt led the collision
00:10:49.71\00:10:53.24
against Israel a
couple of times and tried
00:10:53.25\00:10:57.91
to lead a game
when President Sadat
00:10:57.92\00:11:01.13
made an
independent peace with Israel
00:11:01.14\00:11:05.45
which led to
his assassination at
00:11:05.46\00:11:08.09
the hands of the
Muslim Brotherhood.
00:11:08.10\00:11:10.35
It was Muslim
Brotherhood cell group among
00:11:10.36\00:11:15.16
the military officers
that killed him. Okay.
00:11:15.17\00:11:17.41
So, we still seeing
work out a very extreme
00:11:17.42\00:11:20.58
afford to take over
Egypt which is strongly
00:11:20.59\00:11:23.56
Islamic, no
question, culturally,
00:11:23.57\00:11:25.91
it's overwhelmingly
Islamic at the moment.
00:11:27.80\00:11:29.51
But it is has not
been in recent years a
00:11:29.52\00:11:34.61
doctrinaire Islamic
state. And in fact Egypt,
00:11:34.62\00:11:39.00
Cairo itself is a
very cosmopolitan city
00:11:39.01\00:11:41.85
very open minded and
the irony is that hardcore
00:11:43.23\00:11:46.10
states like Saudi
Arabia, the elites that who
00:11:46.11\00:11:50.42
will not drink or
smoke or eat pork or do all
00:11:50.43\00:11:54.96
of the things that
are prescribed by Islam.
00:11:54.97\00:11:57.16
They go to Cairo to
do that that. Oh that's
00:11:57.17\00:11:59.02
there Las Vegas.
Yes. So, Egypt you know
00:11:59.03\00:12:03.45
we're seeing a
problem here but it's actually
00:12:03.46\00:12:05.26
a country very
much at play. Okay.
00:12:05.27\00:12:08.22
And the yearning to
be open and pluralistic
00:12:08.23\00:12:12.38
and free on
religion and the call to
00:12:12.39\00:12:16.86
fundamentalism, it's
in this way, we'll come
00:12:16.87\00:12:19.48
after the break and
discuss this further,
00:12:19.49\00:12:21.91
very interesting developments
00:12:21.92\00:12:23.44
in the Middle East in Egypt.
00:12:23.45\00:12:25.17
One-hundred years, a
long time to do anything
00:12:33.01\00:12:37.31
much less
publish a magazine, but
00:12:37.32\00:12:39.92
this year
Liberty, the Seventh-day
00:12:39.93\00:12:42.33
Adventist voice
of religious freedom,
00:12:42.34\00:12:44.05
celebrates one
hundred years of doing what
00:12:44.06\00:12:46.93
it does best, collecting,
analyzing, and reporting
00:12:46.94\00:12:50.55
the ebb and flow of
religious expression
00:12:50.56\00:12:52.55
around the world.
Issue after issues. Liberty
00:12:52.56\00:12:56.18
has taken on the
tough assignments,
00:12:56.19\00:12:57.92
tracking down
threats to religious freedom
00:12:57.93\00:13:00.22
and exposing the
work of the devil in every
00:13:00.23\00:13:02.50
corner of the
globe. Governmental
00:13:02.51\00:13:04.66
interference,
personal attacks, corporate
00:13:04.67\00:13:07.20
assaults, even
religious freedom issues
00:13:07.21\00:13:09.51
sequestered within
the church community
00:13:09.52\00:13:11.22
itself have been
clearly and honestly exposed.
00:13:11.23\00:13:14.07
Liberty exists for
one purpose, to help God's
00:13:14.08\00:13:18.21
people maintain that
all important separation
00:13:18.22\00:13:20.81
of Church and State,
while recognizing the
00:13:20.82\00:13:23.47
dangers inherent in
such a struggle. During
00:13:23.48\00:13:26.55
the past century,
Liberty has experienced
00:13:26.56\00:13:28.90
challenges of its
own, but it remains on the
00:13:28.91\00:13:31.47
job. Thanks to the
inspired leadership
00:13:31.48\00:13:34.06
of a long line of
dedicated Adventist
00:13:34.07\00:13:36.08
editors, three of
whom represent almost half
00:13:36.09\00:13:38.28
of the
publications' existence and the
00:13:38.29\00:13:40.45
foresight of a
little woman from New
00:13:40.46\00:13:42.55
England. One
hundred years of struggle,
00:13:42.56\00:13:45.13
one hundred years
of victories, religious
00:13:45.14\00:13:48.23
freedom isn't just
about political machines
00:13:48.24\00:13:50.56
and cultural
prejudices. It's about people,
00:13:50.57\00:13:53.95
fighting for the
right to serve the God they
00:13:53.96\00:13:56.81
love as their
hearts and the Holy Spirit
00:13:56.82\00:13:59.30
dictate. Thanks to
the prayers and generous
00:13:59.31\00:14:02.44
support of
Seventh-Day Adventists
00:14:02.45\00:14:04.17
everywhere. Liberty
will continue to accomplish
00:14:04.18\00:14:07.22
its work of
providing timely information,
00:14:07.23\00:14:09.17
spirit filled
inspiration, and heaven sent
00:14:09.18\00:14:11.76
encouragement to
all who long to live
00:14:11.77\00:14:14.51
and work in a world
bound together by the
00:14:14.52\00:14:17.82
God ordained bonds
of religious freedom.
00:14:17.83\00:14:21.19
Welcome back to Liberty
insider before the break
00:14:28.36\00:14:30.81
with guest Melissa
Reid and I am Lincoln Steed
00:14:30.82\00:14:33.85
and we both on this
show we both from Liberty
00:14:33.86\00:14:36.54
Magazine. I am the
editor and she is the
00:14:36.55\00:14:38.44
associate editor.
We've been talking about
00:14:38.45\00:14:40.58
horrific events in
Egypt. Most particularly
00:14:40.59\00:14:45.37
massacre of Coptic
Christians they on the
00:14:45.38\00:14:49.42
East Day. Yes.
But we were pointing
00:14:49.43\00:14:50.67
out these a part
of vaguer pattern
00:14:50.68\00:14:51.89
doesn't it? Yeah,
yeah, unfortunately
00:14:51.90\00:14:54.08
it seems like
Christianity is becoming
00:14:54.09\00:14:57.30
less and less
welcome in the Middle East.
00:14:57.31\00:14:59.20
There always been
unfortunate conflict
00:15:00.81\00:15:06.30
between Christians
and Muslims and who and
00:15:06.31\00:15:09.81
admire this program
to say that any one group
00:15:09.82\00:15:12.36
has a corner on in
tolerance or tolerance,
00:15:12.37\00:15:14.83
but its an
undeniable fact of history that
00:15:15.95\00:15:18.39
Islam in it's
expansion which into that area
00:15:18.40\00:15:21.87
was largely by
the sword moved up and
00:15:21.88\00:15:24.93
displaced Christians
from Egypt because it
00:15:24.94\00:15:27.31
was majority
Christian when they came but
00:15:27.32\00:15:30.40
now the tables
have turned and so Copts
00:15:30.41\00:15:32.15
are really on the final
stages of just a societal
00:15:33.35\00:15:37.24
tension there. Alright.
Plus I believe we've seen
00:15:37.41\00:15:41.13
the worldwide a kick
back of the Islamic world
00:15:41.14\00:15:45.03
against what they see
as the globalization and
00:15:45.04\00:15:47.90
more importantly
perhaps the globalization
00:15:47.91\00:15:50.01
that is empowered
Christianity they object
00:15:50.02\00:15:53.64
so they are, they
are pushing back. Right!
00:15:53.65\00:15:55.55
Well you know it's
interesting we just
00:15:55.56\00:15:57.68
recently covered the
so called 9/11 mosque
00:15:57.69\00:16:01.90
in New York and
number one it's you know
00:16:01.91\00:16:06.27
actually not a
mosque and it's community
00:16:06.28\00:16:07.74
centre that we talked
about and we also talked
00:16:07.75\00:16:09.57
about that it's not
right on the 9/11 grounds
00:16:09.58\00:16:11.76
and it can be
looked back. And Liberty
00:16:11.77\00:16:13.18
Magazine defended
their right under U.S. laws,
00:16:13.19\00:16:15.97
exactly, learning
laws, and now separation
00:16:15.98\00:16:17.64
of churches, exactly
and so on. But I think
00:16:17.65\00:16:19.19
what's interesting is
a lot of people that are
00:16:19.20\00:16:21.98
offended by or critical
of the building that it's
00:16:21.99\00:16:25.85
you know one might be
in perhaps in poor taste,
00:16:26.73\00:16:29.45
but we had ate
least one gentlemen say
00:16:29.46\00:16:31.83
I can't go to Iran
and build a mosque there
00:16:31.84\00:16:36.91
and I think it's interesting
00:16:36.92\00:16:38.81
unfortunately that's
true as far as I think that
00:16:38.82\00:16:42.66
Western Europe and
United States is lot
00:16:43.44\00:16:45.49
more welcoming to
the Islamic religion or
00:16:45.50\00:16:49.15
a Muslims than unfortunately
00:16:49.16\00:16:51.77
Christianity is
welcomed even though
00:16:51.78\00:16:53.86
it has that
history, now we don't have
00:16:53.87\00:16:56.39
that same freedom.
And it's an unfortunate
00:16:56.40\00:16:59.41
mismatch and because
Islam doesn't see that
00:16:59.42\00:17:02.69
welcoming nature as a
strength of Christianity,
00:17:02.70\00:17:05.71
they see it as a
weakness. They see
00:17:05.72\00:17:07.48
it is a religion
that's not even sure of
00:17:07.49\00:17:09.13
itself. And they
have accepted because the
00:17:09.14\00:17:12.65
Quran is quite
specific on that is the one true
00:17:12.66\00:17:15.02
religion and
Muhammad you know there
00:17:15.03\00:17:17.22
is one Allah and
Muhammad is His prophet
00:17:17.23\00:17:19.14
and that's the right
to belief that, but when
00:17:19.15\00:17:21.46
that is acted upon
by the whole group of
00:17:21.47\00:17:24.15
the people it can
become very deleterious
00:17:24.16\00:17:27.21
for pluralism. Right,
and again that's why we
00:17:27.22\00:17:30.27
appreciate that
separation at church
00:17:30.28\00:17:31.79
and stay.
Absolutely. Because I believe
00:17:31.80\00:17:33.65
that might that you
know the Jesus is my
00:17:33.66\00:17:36.64
savior and that you
know there is one true
00:17:36.65\00:17:38.46
religion through Him
and through His grace and
00:17:38.47\00:17:40.75
mercy. But I
certainly don't believe it's my
00:17:40.76\00:17:43.00
government's right to
enforce that in anyway.
00:17:43.01\00:17:46.13
Now viewers probably
don't think they could
00:17:46.14\00:17:49.65
watch this program to
get the answer to every
00:17:49.66\00:17:51.28
problem but I'll try to
play if not prophet than
00:17:51.29\00:17:56.14
prognosticator of this
huge battle. How we can
00:17:56.15\00:18:00.61
resolve this now open
conflict between at least
00:18:00.62\00:18:03.43
the radical active,
radicals maybe a wrong
00:18:03.44\00:18:06.76
word, the super
activist version of Islam and
00:18:06.77\00:18:10.22
what they see as
the Christian world,
00:18:10.23\00:18:12.07
how we can resolve that
I don't really know it in
00:18:12.08\00:18:14.28
every phase, it's a
massive. I don't think
00:18:14.29\00:18:16.97
anyone knows.
Defense secretary Rumsfeld
00:18:16.98\00:18:21.84
once said that the
war on terrorism slash
00:18:21.85\00:18:23.93
Islamic fundamentalism
will last there lifetime.
00:18:23.94\00:18:26.35
So it's so open
ended you can imagine.
00:18:26.36\00:18:28.25
But I believe if it's
any secret to at least
00:18:28.60\00:18:31.83
turning it back, it
is to work you know we
00:18:31.84\00:18:35.22
can't change easily
the minds of the whole
00:18:35.23\00:18:37.00
populations an Islam
is what Islam is, and
00:18:37.01\00:18:40.52
it's not our right to
force a religion to turn
00:18:40.53\00:18:43.09
it's back on it's
tenets because I think that's
00:18:43.10\00:18:45.19
what it stake here.
Islam has certain viewpoints
00:18:45.20\00:18:48.50
that are built into the
Quran, and so to ask them
00:18:48.51\00:18:51.11
to become so
moderate that they disregard
00:18:51.12\00:18:53.43
their holy book is a
little bit of a stretch.
00:18:53.44\00:18:55.34
Right. But I think in
our dealings and in our
00:18:55.35\00:18:58.35
pressure on
countries we can work through
00:18:58.36\00:19:00.78
many means to make
sure that they have
00:19:00.79\00:19:02.70
a separation of church
in stake. Right. In their
00:19:02.71\00:19:05.78
country and once we
cross, allow them to
00:19:05.79\00:19:08.12
cross the line to
Sharia Law. Right. It's
00:19:08.13\00:19:11.34
all over. Would you
explain to our viewers
00:19:11.35\00:19:13.36
what Sharia Law?
Sharia Law is ia whole
00:19:13.37\00:19:15.91
body of Islamic law
that derives from the
00:19:15.92\00:19:19.70
Quran directly and the
Quran is not their only
00:19:19.71\00:19:23.25
holy writings. Quran
is fairly small, it's
00:19:23.26\00:19:26.71
supposedly well I
mean by their belief this
00:19:26.72\00:19:29.71
is the Angel
Gabriel's direct words of
00:19:29.72\00:19:33.25
revelation to
Muhammad. Then they have
00:19:33.26\00:19:35.85
the hadiths which are
like the Gospels, these
00:19:35.86\00:19:39.61
are the records of
Muhammad's teaching and
00:19:39.62\00:19:41.69
His life and some of
His followers and hadiths
00:19:41.70\00:19:44.30
go and this, some by
other His Holy historical
00:19:44.31\00:19:47.57
figure and so on,
there's a whole body of that
00:19:47.58\00:19:49.22
plus a sort of Islamic
tradition. And from all
00:19:49.23\00:19:52.18
of that they get rules
of behavior of governance
00:19:52.19\00:19:54.89
called the Sharia. And
the best parallel to our
00:19:55.13\00:20:00.77
Christians and
Judace background this is
00:20:00.78\00:20:05.63
the laws of
Leviticus Deuteronomy,
00:20:05.64\00:20:08.75
not all sarmad. Again
some of them were sort
00:20:08.76\00:20:15.62
of a Jewish adaptation
of the Laws of Hammurabi
00:20:17.19\00:20:20.14
and so on. Sure.
These are very particular
00:20:20.15\00:20:22.22
just laws of
governance. Yes, yes. And so
00:20:22.23\00:20:24.98
once they bring that
in that means that rather
00:20:24.99\00:20:27.77
than the judiciary or a
constitution controlling
00:20:27.78\00:20:32.10
things that such
a country, it's the
00:20:32.11\00:20:33.67
imams the religious
rulers interpreting the
00:20:33.68\00:20:37.16
Quran and the hadiths
so they run the direct
00:20:37.17\00:20:39.68
church rule. So is
in just that you mixed
00:20:39.69\00:20:42.33
church's state in
actuality you have given
00:20:42.34\00:20:44.37
absolute control to
the church authorities.
00:20:44.38\00:20:47.98
Right, right, so you
certainly would not want
00:20:47.99\00:20:50.60
to be a minority
religion in that sort of
00:20:50.61\00:20:52.91
situation. No, no.
Yeah. And so you need to
00:20:52.92\00:20:57.56
have non Muslims
judged by the same rules
00:20:57.57\00:21:00.63
which of course
we've discussed blissfully
00:21:00.64\00:21:02.82
before, right,
and the way you got an
00:21:02.83\00:21:04.30
intractable problem.
Yeah. But you then to
00:21:04.31\00:21:08.36
things like an arm
cut off for stealing and
00:21:08.37\00:21:12.03
death by the stoning
or beheading for adultery
00:21:12.04\00:21:16.17
and things like
this, right, just out there
00:21:16.18\00:21:17.85
scenario. Well
certainly as a woman I would
00:21:17.86\00:21:19.43
feel it would be
difficult probably to
00:21:19.44\00:21:21.36
exist as I exist now
in society under that
00:21:21.37\00:21:24.95
sort of law. Right,
exactly. But back to my
00:21:24.96\00:21:30.09
point I don't see
how we can force the
00:21:30.10\00:21:32.58
change with how
the religion can put
00:21:32.59\00:21:37.41
itself in it's mosques
or how it looks it's holy
00:21:37.42\00:21:40.89
books. But we can
have acquired some
00:21:40.90\00:21:44.56
influence through treaties and
00:21:44.57\00:21:47.39
international contacts
and support of different
00:21:47.40\00:21:50.86
factions with you
know divvying for power to
00:21:50.87\00:21:53.94
make sure that they
maintain a separable
00:21:53.95\00:21:56.41
not maintain either
reach for or if they
00:21:56.42\00:21:59.96
haven't maintained
the separation of church
00:21:59.97\00:22:01.73
and state. And of
course to be, to be to fair
00:22:01.74\00:22:04.46
Islamic world we
are doing the same here.
00:22:04.47\00:22:06.95
Right, right. It's a
good model everywhere.
00:22:06.96\00:22:09.20
Yes well, you know
it's interesting and I
00:22:09.21\00:22:11.40
don't recall if
we mentioned this in
00:22:11.41\00:22:12.38
previous show or not
we were talking about
00:22:12.39\00:22:14.18
an activist from
Pakistan and her work for
00:22:14.19\00:22:18.35
human rights and
for religious freedom
00:22:18.36\00:22:20.12
specifically and we
talked about how those
00:22:20.13\00:22:22.60
interfaith dialogues
were important but she was
00:22:22.61\00:22:26.37
saying there just not
the mood there in Pakistan
00:22:26.38\00:22:29.14
and I think that they
might be true in lot of
00:22:29.15\00:22:31.09
Middle Eastern
situations where there's not
00:22:31.10\00:22:33.33
even, you can't even
have those dialogues.
00:22:33.34\00:22:36.34
People are not yet
ready to have those
00:22:36.35\00:22:38.79
conversations. Well
then just not ready and
00:22:38.80\00:22:40.17
we may be going
backwards I believe. We
00:22:40.18\00:22:41.53
are in a very
reactionary time, yeah, in much
00:22:41.54\00:22:45.05
of the world unlike
in Turkey which has been
00:22:45.06\00:22:48.61
thought of, in
my lifetime and your
00:22:48.62\00:22:50.29
lifetime as a
westernized country.
00:22:50.30\00:22:53.47
It's a native ally
and wanted to be the part
00:22:53.48\00:22:57.04
of the European
Union and may still
00:22:57.05\00:22:59.29
undoubtedly, but in
Turkey they are calling
00:22:59.30\00:23:02.31
Kemal Ataturk,
the founder of modern
00:23:02.32\00:23:04.94
Turkey, the Jew
that's the attack against it
00:23:04.95\00:23:09.34
but he was a Jewish
agent that subverted Islam.
00:23:09.35\00:23:12.21
Oh. So there are in
such historical revisionism
00:23:12.22\00:23:15.39
that they are throwing
over their own heritage
00:23:15.40\00:23:17.70
as the religious
few point comes to
00:23:19.44\00:23:21.55
the fore. Let's
shift gears a little bit we
00:23:21.56\00:23:23.55
only have three or
four minutes left but
00:23:23.56\00:23:26.58
it is worth
mentioning when we talk about
00:23:26.59\00:23:29.62
separation of church
and state. In the Untied
00:23:29.63\00:23:31.70
States the first
amendment is sort of the
00:23:31.71\00:23:34.03
crown jewels on that
Congress will make no law
00:23:34.04\00:23:37.34
rather regarding the
establishment of religion
00:23:37.35\00:23:39.64
nor preventing the free
exercise. We told freely
00:23:39.65\00:23:42.70
about our constitution
protection, but what did
00:23:42.71\00:23:45.27
you think the other
day in the U.S. Congress,
00:23:45.28\00:23:47.40
right, they took a
little time to read the
00:23:47.41\00:23:50.50
constitution. Right,
and I think that's the
00:23:50.51\00:23:52.36
first time if they have
done that, at my memory,
00:23:52.37\00:23:54.77
yeah; I believe it
was the first time,
00:23:54.78\00:23:56.42
well I didn't
hear the reading of the
00:23:56.43\00:23:58.15
constitution because
I was there as workday
00:23:58.16\00:23:59.93
and I was busy how
it worked? But I did
00:23:59.94\00:24:02.36
hear the
commentary afterwards and it
00:24:02.37\00:24:04.55
was interesting to me
first of all that what
00:24:04.56\00:24:09.32
I understood this sort
of strongest reaction is
00:24:09.33\00:24:12.70
when the
Congressman from Georgia who
00:24:12.71\00:24:16.06
was involved in
sovereign rights movement
00:24:16.07\00:24:17.42
read the section
giving right Afghan Americans
00:24:17.43\00:24:22.14
the right to vote and
that was quite I think
00:24:22.15\00:24:24.69
there was a
standing ovation or applause
00:24:24.70\00:24:26.58
or whatever which was
a very, very appropriate,
00:24:26.59\00:24:28.77
but then I heard
that they read the section
00:24:28.78\00:24:32.65
that gave women
the right to vote. And
00:24:32.66\00:24:34.61
there was no, I
think, no, no response
00:24:34.62\00:24:37.11
what so ever at all.
But also then going back
00:24:37.12\00:24:40.01
to the Afghan
Americans they left out certain
00:24:40.02\00:24:43.23
parts. One of the
group, yeah, it was most
00:24:43.24\00:24:45.67
telling because they
missed out that; they
00:24:45.68\00:24:47.44
missed out in that
regard the influence of
00:24:47.45\00:24:50.74
four-fifths. I think
its three-fifths, yeah,
00:24:50.75\00:24:53.74
three-fifths percentage,
because, yeah. And what
00:24:53.75\00:24:56.51
I saw was, was well
backup a bit, for years
00:24:56.52\00:25:01.66
I have heard people
say all the constitution
00:25:01.67\00:25:03.30
we want to build
our constitution, right,
00:25:03.31\00:25:04.82
that is expected
for a long time. Yes.
00:25:04.83\00:25:06.52
People don't really
know, yes, what's in the
00:25:06.53\00:25:07.58
constitution, yes,
yes, and then when it's
00:25:07.59\00:25:09.76
brought up it's so
pertinently obvious
00:25:09.77\00:25:11.69
that it is what it
is which is a human
00:25:11.70\00:25:14.00
document, right,
formed by history and
00:25:14.01\00:25:17.43
improved by
amendments. Yes, yes. They just
00:25:17.44\00:25:21.85
want to read the
amendment and then we
00:25:21.86\00:25:23.51
want to expose that
they need them to improve
00:25:23.52\00:25:25.76
them. Yes. We are in
an American Experiment
00:25:25.77\00:25:28.85
that used to be
called which is the inheritor
00:25:28.86\00:25:31.24
of the whole Christian
society, the development
00:25:31.25\00:25:35.03
of the reaffirmation,
of the enlightenment,
00:25:35.04\00:25:37.42
of a struggle
for independence from
00:25:37.43\00:25:39.80
England and so on.
It is in spite of what
00:25:39.81\00:25:42.69
intendance clear and
other say it's a living
00:25:42.70\00:25:45.79
document, right,
right, making a lot of sense
00:25:45.80\00:25:47.95
that some would
claim. Right. And we need to
00:25:47.96\00:25:49.82
see at that way but
on Religious Liberty
00:25:49.83\00:25:51.70
I believe we need
to see that our higher
00:25:51.71\00:25:53.98
calling in
Religious Liberty is took
00:25:53.99\00:25:55.94
principles that
God's enumerated it just a
00:25:55.95\00:25:58.31
happy happen stands,
yes, with this constitution
00:25:58.32\00:26:01.20
that supports that.
Right, right, we talked
00:26:01.21\00:26:04.03
about in our
previous show that we have
00:26:04.04\00:26:06.63
the Religious
Liberty campaign every year.
00:26:06.64\00:26:08.75
And we have
mentioned that this year,
00:26:08.76\00:26:10.83
our campaign
theme is Christ-Centered
00:26:10.84\00:26:13.42
Liberty. And I think
that absolutely Ecko Wadley
00:26:13.43\00:26:16.46
he gonna saying
here that as an Americans
00:26:16.47\00:26:20.00
were so grateful
for the constitution
00:26:20.01\00:26:22.19
it was a nice
reminder to have it read to us.
00:26:22.20\00:26:24.55
Although some areas
were left out you know
00:26:24.56\00:26:29.15
unfortunately I
think in this current day
00:26:29.16\00:26:31.33
and age we don't we
are not as aware of what
00:26:31.34\00:26:35.67
actually the constitution
consists of and so it's
00:26:35.68\00:26:39.90
probably a nice
reminder to hear at that way.
00:26:39.91\00:26:41.76
And but we do know
that as far as religious
00:26:41.77\00:26:44.58
freedom goes that
is the ultimate gift
00:26:44.59\00:26:47.12
from God our original creator.
00:26:47.13\00:26:49.32
In thinking about
modern Egypt it's worth
00:26:51.09\00:26:53.08
remembering that
Ancient Egypt was a
00:26:53.09\00:26:55.55
welcoming culture
for the stranger and
00:26:55.56\00:26:57.64
someone with the
different religious view
00:26:57.65\00:26:59.75
point. Remember Jesus
and His family sheltered
00:26:59.76\00:27:02.97
there from Harold's
persecution until He was
00:27:02.98\00:27:05.69
able to return to
Nazareth after Harold's
00:27:05.70\00:27:09.98
death. Today, the
United States, Egypt and
00:27:09.99\00:27:15.63
many countries
around the world are being
00:27:15.64\00:27:18.09
forced to look again
at how they will enable
00:27:18.10\00:27:22.82
religious
pluralism and avoid religious
00:27:22.83\00:27:24.55
persecution. Egypt needs
to avoid the calls to the
00:27:24.56\00:27:28.02
Sharia law. In the
United States as we have
00:27:28.03\00:27:32.20
looked so publicly
again at the U.S. constitution
00:27:32.21\00:27:35.90
it's worth
remembering yes that there are
00:27:35.91\00:27:38.89
guarantees for
the religious freedom.
00:27:38.90\00:27:40.86
The first amendment
has worked very well;
00:27:40.87\00:27:43.67
separation of church
in state is not anti guard
00:27:44.07\00:27:47.27
it is respecting
the things of God in the
00:27:47.28\00:27:50.83
spiritual Rome
keeping them there and leaving
00:27:50.84\00:27:53.74
the state to
administer the civil side of
00:27:53.75\00:27:56.71
daily life. We are in a
time of great stress but
00:27:56.72\00:28:00.18
we need to remember
these basic absolutes
00:28:00.19\00:28:03.68
of the past.
This is Lincoln Steed
00:28:03.69\00:28:06.94
for Liberty Insider.
00:28:06.95\00:28:08.16