Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
that brings you news, views,
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discussion, and just
to update information on
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religious liberty
events around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
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Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And our guest on the
program is Melissa Reid,
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who is Associated
Editor for Liberty Magazine.
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So, we're keeping
it pretty much liberty
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oriented for this
program. Absolutely,
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I can't think of a
better way to do it.
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Yes, a lot of our
viewers know we do rotate
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through any number
of experts and other
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religious liberty
workers, yes, who have their
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own different
perspectives to add.
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I want to discuss on
this program blasphemy.
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I don't want to
indulge in blasphemy,
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because anyone with
the respect for religion
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their own or someone
else's will not knowingly
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or would not want
to offend by loosely or
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outrageously
presenting some of the concepts,
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of course. The
blasphemy has a long history,
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doesn't it? Yeah, yeah.
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Tell me if I'm wrong
you know a little bit of
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history too, but it
seems to me there is an
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apocryphal story
on the Mayflower,
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when they were coming
across from England one of
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the sailors ran to
in drive and profanely
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spoke of
religion, like lightening.
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Oh yes, descended on it,
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I am pretty sure of that story.
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I haven't heard that
story. And that was the
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popular view for
many, for many hundred of
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years back, and
certainly in that era
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that if someone took
the name of the Lord in vain
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or blaspheming
against the holy things of the
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church that you know
heaven would strike them,
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and if not heaven then
it was the obligation of
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the state and the
religious authorities to
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deal with such a person.
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We certainly don't
knowingly want to offend
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another's religion, and
we certainly know that we
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are instructed by
our Lord and Savior,
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Christians not to
speak blasphemy against God,
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that said I agree we
certainly have the history
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of the
government being involved,
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and I think that's
where we have the concern as
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far as the blasphemy laws.
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Since you have ever count a bit,
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you know the Old Testament that
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mandates this from blasphemy,
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well yeah I, but
that was the theocracy and
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that's the wild
card, it's not given,
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it should not be
given, and even in the Bible
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it did not easily give
the authority of the civil
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state to execute
things that were reserved for
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the priest of, right
right, and that was by
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the first king of
Israel got into such trouble,
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he served that
role. So and certainly in
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our modern civil
construct where we're keeping
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church and
state separate for the
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protection of both.
But it seem a blasphemy
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law is very
retrograde because almost by
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definition it's
setting out some sort of
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favored form of
religion, because you can't
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say oh blasphemy.
I mean we're probably
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happy enough to
"blaspheme" you know
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the religion of we
need the pew, you know some
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could be some
fantastic trivial thing,
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right, right, and
so it's not you know a
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blanket thing, it
would be used to support from
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deformation a
particular religious viewpoint,
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right, right, and we
don't believe the state
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should be doing it.
Right, and the reason why
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we're talking about this topic,
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today of course is
the situation in Pakistan
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who currently
has a blasphemy law
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on the books, and
unfortunately we know
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people have been
in prison for it.
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Yes, it's not
really just on the books,
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exactly; it's in the
wall, and the roof of their
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society. Yeah, I think,
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I think they said last year,
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it was a 110 people
were accused of blasphemy in
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Pakistan, and again so
those situation haven been
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accused you know that
in the situation of the
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housewife in that
we in Punjab province,
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in Punjab province,
just a simple village woman,
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yes, what it was she was out,
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and she was a Christian
woman in overwhelmingly
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Muslim village, and the village
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women decided that
they would convert her
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to Islam, right.
So, while they are
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fetching water I think it was,
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they sort of set upon
her, and barraged her with
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request that
you become a Muslim.
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Right. And she said no,
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she believed in Christianity,
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she didn't believe in
Islam. She didn't not say
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anything
specifically to vilify Islam,
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but she said that
she didn't believe it,
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right, right,
and that was enough,
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they went to the Imam
complained to him a few
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days later, yeah,
then he took it to the
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authority saying that
Islam had been defamed,
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that Mohammad had
been defamed, right, right,
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and that alone was
enough to invoke the
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death penalty. Right
and then of course we know
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that events spilled
out of control there,
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the gentlemen who was
the governor of Punjab
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at that time gave
an interview with NPR
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on the situation,
and let me just read you
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little quote from
there. He said this gentlemen
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Solomon Tarsier is his name,
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and he says before
this no one was prepared
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to discuss this law,
it will set the mullahs
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at your throat and I
said that she should be
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pardoned,
talking about miss Bibi,
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and this is a travesty
and a shame that a poor
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woman like this who
hasn't the means to defend
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herself against
summed up charges,
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and in the country
where your prime minister is
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Muslim, your
president is Muslim,
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you are 95 percent
Muslim, so she is obviously
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the religious minority
there with the Christian
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beliefs, very much so.
What is the need for laws
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like this frankly is
for God to decide whether I
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am a Muslim or not, and
not some literate mullah
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to decide whether
I'm a Muslim or not.
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And well this is the
late governor of the Punjab,
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exactly, that made that comment.
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Right very soon
after making those sort of
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comments speaking out
against this law he was
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assassinated by
one of his bodyguard,
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and bodyguard has said
the reason why he killed
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the governor was because he has
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spoken out against
this particular law.
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And it's interesting
again justice is being sort
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of taken into the
hands of the citizen,
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you know we
mentioned that about 110 people
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were accused of
blasphemy in Pakistan,
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and then some of those
were then given the death
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penalty. But it's
more common that those that
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are accused are killed
or who speak out against
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the law are killed
rather than going to the just
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system, they are
killed by individuals,
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by the modern
mentality situations like that.
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Modern mentality to the point,
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but it's the
mentality of the religious
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community, right. In
the one of the news reports
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an imam said that he
wasn't that concerned
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whether she was
released through the
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legal system,
because any good Muslim would
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gladly kill her, yes,
and sooner or later she
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would be killed.
Yes. And Pakistan is
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probably one of the
more egregious societies like
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that in the world at the moment.
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They, populous
would execute that sort
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of thing, the
honor killings of usually
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daughters, yeah,
continues unabated,
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never once has the
state intervened to stop that
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and people just rise up
and exact this vengeance,
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and it's incredible,
you know I wouldn't like
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to say that Pakistan
I mean it would be false
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that Pakistanis
lack the normal human
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sensibilities, they
are like other people.
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But the hold of
this sense of religious
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outrage is so strong on
that society that people
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will actually take
what amounts to vigilantly
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actions, so we got a
double problem with this
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law in
Pakistan, it is a bad law.
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But I think if the
law disappear tomorrow,
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we will still have
the same phenomenon,
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right, right, and we so
we need to educate people
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in this case in Pakistan,
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even in the United
States. I will jump across the
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way people might not
imagine many Christians
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who are dealing with
this gay marriage phenomenon
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all the rest which
is clearly in front to
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Christians sensibilities
need to be careful that
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they don't make
unduly inflammatory remarks,
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and they don't react
in the wrong way when
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some of these non
believing usually,
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people make some
rather very rude remarks about
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faith, right, right.
It can easily spiral into
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the same vigilantly
thing, would jump to another
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connection that I can make.
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I think this is not
different from these
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fundamentalist
Christians in the Untied States
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who shot an abortion
doctor recently, right.
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Sense of
religious outrage but he
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is going to take
violent action to satisfy God,
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right, I don't
think God has called;
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any God has called on
us to do that individually.
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Right, well you and I
both have the privilege the
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other evening of
attending the first
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freedom dinner down
in Richmond, Virginia.
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And one of our
colleagues was honored,
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we can talk about
that little bit later,
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but the lady who
received the international award
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you will remember her
name better than I will,
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but she is, Asmar Jahangir.
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Yeah, this is
special repertoire to the
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Untied Nations for
religion and belief.
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You had been, had been, she is,
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and she was not able,
she was a Pakistani lady,
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she was not able to
attend, but her daughter
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came and spoke on her behalf,
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and I think I'm just moving,
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moving speech she has
been, she is in attorney
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and she has worked
in human rights cases in
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Pakistan for the last 20 years.
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So, she has been
vocal, quite vocal about these
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exact kind of
situations she referenced in her
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speech the other
evening, the situation of the
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blasphemy. And as we
know people that speak
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out of against
blasphemy just look
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at the governor of
Punjab situation are
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killed and so to
have the courage and the
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strength and
the conviction to be
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able to speak
out in that manner,
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and it's interesting
one thing she said that
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really struck me
as representatives of
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different religions
we always encouraged this
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inter faith dialogue
you know we respect each
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others comment, differences,
00:10:14.97\00:10:16.52
but we wanna
discuss others comment,
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commonalties. And she
said in Pakistan it's just
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not possible, there is
not the climate to be able
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to do that unfortunately
between because you know
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this one very dominant religion,
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and then the minority religions.
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That's fatigue,
yeah, you were counting
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that I was thinking
yes dialogue is fine,
00:10:32.52\00:10:34.59
and most people like
to or don't mind talking
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with another
religion in the larger sense,
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and we have very good dialogues,
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and you and I been part
of them for some of these
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with Muslims, with Mormons and
00:10:47.40\00:10:52.30
Scientologists you
know you can go on and on,
00:10:52.31\00:10:54.49
Baptists even. Now
there are some who are very
00:10:54.50\00:10:57.23
good friend, yes. You know,
00:10:57.24\00:10:59.06
we agree on that
level, but when you got the
00:11:01.89\00:11:02.86
society that is
overwhelmingly one
00:11:02.87\00:11:05.48
group or another,
yeah they might talk
00:11:05.49\00:11:07.84
with someone else
within their group,
00:11:07.85\00:11:09.65
they really
don't have pluralism,
00:11:09.66\00:11:12.15
then the test is
lot harder to pass.
00:11:12.16\00:11:15.00
And I think the U.S.
has a great advantage
00:11:15.01\00:11:19.24
in that regard that
till this point there has
00:11:19.25\00:11:21.43
been no one group
that's had even large enough
00:11:21.44\00:11:25.01
minority to dictate
to the others right.
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So, it forces the pluralism,
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forces the dialogue,
right, but it raises the
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stakes higher when
one any one group is able
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to get political
advantage, they will then
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revert I think to what
is human nature as well
00:11:37.91\00:11:40.26
human nature in
regard to religious activity.
00:11:40.27\00:11:43.53
Yeah, yeah, and I do
want to also say we are
00:11:43.54\00:11:46.83
speaking specifically
of Pakistan and situations
00:11:46.84\00:11:48.89
there, but in the
article that I was reading on
00:11:48.90\00:11:50.69
this particular case,
I did want to point out
00:11:50.70\00:11:52.21
there are several
other countries that has
00:11:52.22\00:11:54.98
blasphemy laws
still on the books there.
00:11:54.99\00:11:57.53
And Greece was the
one that stood majority,
00:11:58.93\00:12:00.98
yeah, Greece, Poland,
Indonesia, Egypt, Malaysia
00:12:00.99\00:12:03.87
Algeria, other countries.
The US used to, right,
00:12:03.88\00:12:07.29
or at least the
colonies used to have blasphemy
00:12:07.30\00:12:09.49
law, right. And all
of Europe once did moved
00:12:09.50\00:12:13.24
somewhat away from
that, but I think in some ways
00:12:13.25\00:12:17.10
the trend is moving
back to it even though most
00:12:17.11\00:12:19.22
of this the rest of
the world is affronted by
00:12:19.23\00:12:22.02
what's happening in
Pakis, well in some most,
00:12:22.03\00:12:24.24
a lot of the rest of
the world is affronted by
00:12:24.25\00:12:26.82
that. In essence we
are tending to move back
00:12:26.83\00:12:30.78
toward at this
recent resolution of the
00:12:30.79\00:12:33.06
Untied Nations about
the defamation of religion,
00:12:33.07\00:12:36.35
yes, leads very quickly
to this sort of maybe not
00:12:36.36\00:12:39.91
the death penalty, but
to this sort of dynamic,
00:12:39.92\00:12:42.20
right, that would
inhibit people speaking freely
00:12:42.21\00:12:44.88
about religion or
holding and promoting their own
00:12:44.89\00:12:47.23
religion. Right, right,
when he was talking about
00:12:47.24\00:12:49.78
just what exactly is
blasphemy, what would,
00:12:49.79\00:12:52.76
what would fall under
these particular laws.
00:12:52.77\00:12:56.39
And it says it's
illegal in Pakistan for example
00:12:56.40\00:13:01.62
it's illegal to
insult the Prophet Mohammad
00:13:01.63\00:13:03.88
or defile the
Koran. Yeah that so often,
00:13:03.89\00:13:06.02
so often ended,
it's just a way it gets.
00:13:06.03\00:13:07.83
Certainly we will come
back after the break and
00:13:07.84\00:13:10.00
continue this. There
are so many ramifications
00:13:10.01\00:13:13.48
on this topic, we will be back.
00:13:13.49\00:13:14.96
One-hundred
years, a long time to do
00:13:23.78\00:13:26.64
anything much less
publish a magazine,
00:13:26.65\00:13:29.03
but this year Liberty,
the Seventh-day Adventist
00:13:29.04\00:13:32.59
voice of religious freedom,
00:13:32.60\00:13:33.75
celebrates one
hundred years of doing what it
00:13:33.76\00:13:36.75
does best, collecting,
analyzing, and reporting
00:13:36.76\00:13:40.14
the ebb and flow of
religious expression
00:13:40.15\00:13:42.31
around the world.
Issue after issues,
00:13:42.32\00:13:45.20
Liberty has taken on
the tough assignments,
00:13:45.21\00:13:47.78
tracking down threats
to religious freedom and
00:13:47.79\00:13:50.23
exposing the work of
the devil in every corner
00:13:50.24\00:13:52.84
of the globe.
Governmental interference,
00:13:52.85\00:13:54.89
personal attacks,
corporate assaults,
00:13:54.90\00:13:57.43
even religious freedom
issues sequestered within
00:13:57.44\00:14:00.07
the church community
itself have been clearly
00:14:00.08\00:14:02.50
and honestly exposed.
Liberty exists for one
00:14:02.51\00:14:05.93
purpose, to help God's
people maintain that all
00:14:05.94\00:14:09.55
the important
separation of Church and State,
00:14:09.56\00:14:11.81
while recognizing the
dangers inherent in such
00:14:11.82\00:14:14.68
a struggle.
During the past century,
00:14:14.69\00:14:17.16
Liberty has experienced
challenges of its own,
00:14:17.17\00:14:19.52
but it remains on the
job. Thanks to the inspired
00:14:19.53\00:14:23.28
leadership of a long
line of dedicated Adventist
00:14:23.29\00:14:25.73
editors, three of whom
represent almost half of
00:14:25.74\00:14:28.31
the
publications' existence and the
00:14:28.32\00:14:30.18
foresight of a little
woman from New England.
00:14:30.19\00:14:32.78
One hundred years of struggle,
00:14:33.32\00:14:34.99
one hundred years of victories,
00:14:35.00\00:14:37.26
religious freedom
isn't just about political
00:14:37.27\00:14:39.98
machines and
cultural prejudices.
00:14:39.99\00:14:42.03
It's about people,
fighting for the right
00:14:42.04\00:14:45.11
to serve the God they
love as their hearts and
00:14:45.12\00:14:48.33
the Holy Spirit
dictate. Thanks to the prayers
00:14:48.34\00:14:51.79
and generous support
of Seventh-day Adventists
00:14:51.80\00:14:53.89
everywhere. Liberty
will continue to accomplish
00:14:53.90\00:14:56.96
its work of
providing timely information,
00:14:56.97\00:14:58.99
spirit filled
inspiration, and heaven sent
00:14:59.00\00:15:01.46
encouragement to all
who long to live and work
00:15:01.47\00:15:05.20
in a world bound
together by the God
00:15:05.21\00:15:08.07
ordained bonds of
religious freedom.
00:15:08.08\00:15:10.94
Welcome back to Liberty Insider.
00:15:18.29\00:15:20.04
Before the break I was
talking with Melissa Reid
00:15:20.05\00:15:23.42
about the blasphemy
laws, and one of the current
00:15:23.43\00:15:27.44
situations in Pakistan.
But it's worth going back
00:15:27.45\00:15:30.72
on blasphemy I think
just to remember that while
00:15:30.73\00:15:34.67
this is egregious situation,
00:15:34.68\00:15:36.30
the concept of
blasphemy has been
00:15:36.31\00:15:38.52
around for long
time. And you know
00:15:38.53\00:15:39.91
Jesus Christ
basically was executed for
00:15:39.92\00:15:43.43
blasphemy, right,
right, when he was before
00:15:43.44\00:15:45.61
the Sanhedrin, they
asked Him whether He is
00:15:45.62\00:15:48.08
a son of God.
And the high priest,
00:15:48.09\00:15:50.30
when Christ said
yes, he was so affront,
00:15:50.31\00:15:53.51
he ripped his robes,
which under Jewish law
00:15:53.52\00:15:57.79
was mandated death
for the priest himself,
00:15:57.80\00:16:00.32
high priest himself to do that.
00:16:00.33\00:16:01.57
But that was such an
affront that taking away
00:16:01.58\00:16:04.86
should die and we can
look from that point on not
00:16:04.87\00:16:09.32
just in Judaism, but
in Christianity in Europe.
00:16:09.33\00:16:12.45
Blasphemy was
accounted as capital offense not
00:16:13.37\00:16:16.06
taken lightly, and I
think any true believer of
00:16:16.07\00:16:21.86
faith in there in
itself knows that is one of the
00:16:21.87\00:16:24.61
worst things, you know
the Bible says don't take
00:16:24.62\00:16:26.90
the name of the
Lord in vain, exactly.
00:16:26.91\00:16:28.69
But we are not given
to be the; the enforcer!
00:16:28.70\00:16:33.09
Yeah the enforcer or
the agents of vengeance
00:16:33.10\00:16:35.62
for any faith, yes,
right, and I think a
00:16:35.63\00:16:39.28
Christian particularity
knows that the day of
00:16:39.29\00:16:42.32
God's vengeance is
reserved for God, right,
00:16:42.33\00:16:44.78
and "I will repay
says the Lord vengeance
00:16:44.79\00:16:47.70
is mine", right and
of course, and under the
00:16:47.71\00:16:49.08
constructive religious freedom,
00:16:49.09\00:16:50.80
a civil construct we
have to operate within the
00:16:50.81\00:16:53.56
laws of
civility, and nonviolence.
00:16:53.57\00:16:56.36
Right, right, and
unfortunately it looks
00:16:56.37\00:16:58.02
like in this
contemporary times more and more
00:16:58.03\00:17:01.56
these are situations
for individuals are being
00:17:01.57\00:17:03.49
set up. Well that's
what it lends itself to very,
00:17:03.50\00:17:07.05
very easily, right, of course.
00:17:07.06\00:17:08.34
And with the vague
sort of and you were talking
00:17:08.35\00:17:10.55
before the break
about United Nations and the
00:17:10.56\00:17:13.86
defamation of
religion situation there.
00:17:13.87\00:17:16.15
And I think lets
explain a little bit to
00:17:16.16\00:17:18.44
our viewing audience.
Again when we say these
00:17:18.45\00:17:21.84
things you know
that it sounds like well
00:17:21.85\00:17:24.62
of course you know
we're against people saying
00:17:24.63\00:17:26.26
good thing, bad you
know defaming our creator or
00:17:26.27\00:17:29.28
redeemers, we think
about as Christians,
00:17:29.29\00:17:31.32
but it's been
interesting we as a
00:17:31.82\00:17:33.90
Seventh-day
Adventist Church has spoken out
00:17:33.91\00:17:35.43
against these defamation
of religion situations,
00:17:35.44\00:17:39.21
because and so have
many protestant religions.
00:17:39.22\00:17:42.88
It's primarily
been Muslim countries,
00:17:42.89\00:17:46.33
or organizations that
have really pushed to have
00:17:46.34\00:17:48.65
these laws because
again they are so very big,
00:17:48.66\00:17:51.58
the reason why we've
been, you know spoken out
00:17:51.59\00:17:54.20
against them is because
they have been so vague,
00:17:54.21\00:17:57.09
so broad, and it
really does lend itself to.
00:17:57.10\00:18:00.07
Well that's why that
even that they exist,
00:18:00.08\00:18:03.95
they shouldn't exist
at all while they are
00:18:03.96\00:18:05.54
doubly bad, yeah,
because their execution is bad.
00:18:05.55\00:18:07.75
But no, they
shouldn't exists even I'd been
00:18:07.76\00:18:10.70
opposed to such a law
even if it was $20 penalty,
00:18:10.71\00:18:15.42
right. It's still
inappropriate, right,
00:18:15.43\00:18:17.35
for the state to
be administering some
00:18:17.36\00:18:21.29
punishment for how
you think or speak about
00:18:21.30\00:18:23.32
religion, your own or
someone else's for that
00:18:23.33\00:18:25.32
matter. Right, right exactly.
00:18:25.33\00:18:26.57
So the lady that we
mentioned earlier that
00:18:27.06\00:18:30.01
received the award
the daughter attended.
00:18:30.02\00:18:32.11
She was one that was
again very vocal on that
00:18:32.12\00:18:34.79
particular statement.
And she had good reason
00:18:34.80\00:18:37.48
of course whether it's
whole so of the cart as a
00:18:37.49\00:18:41.54
special repertoire
for the United Nations.
00:18:41.55\00:18:44.03
In other word she is
an emissary that goes
00:18:44.04\00:18:46.40
around
investigating religious freedom
00:18:46.41\00:18:50.05
situations and
reporting to them on what's
00:18:50.06\00:18:53.92
going on. I guess she
was in that role because
00:18:53.93\00:18:57.63
she had a sensitivity
before but particularly
00:18:57.64\00:19:00.85
dealing with so many
around the world than
00:19:00.86\00:19:03.37
your own country she
is doubly aware that this
00:19:03.38\00:19:07.09
is just not proper,
yes, and very much in power
00:19:07.10\00:19:10.58
to speak at against
it, and you have to admire
00:19:10.59\00:19:12.40
her and all like her,
and there are many like her
00:19:12.41\00:19:14.66
around the world,
yes. So, we tend to forget,
00:19:14.67\00:19:16.34
yes. It's easy to sit
here on television and even
00:19:16.35\00:19:19.60
say something a
little edgy which we are,
00:19:19.61\00:19:21.57
I hope we don't do too much,
00:19:21.58\00:19:22.55
but you know the
consequences almost nil.
00:19:22.56\00:19:26.36
It's the worst generally
as the people might stop
00:19:26.37\00:19:28.76
watching it, turn the channel,
00:19:28.77\00:19:29.98
the program
might disappear, right.
00:19:29.99\00:19:32.21
But when someone like
Asma Jahangir speaks out,
00:19:32.22\00:19:36.80
her life is on the line, right.
00:19:36.81\00:19:38.85
And her daughter
was there in Richmond a
00:19:38.86\00:19:41.86
few days ago to receive
the award for mother who
00:19:41.87\00:19:43.87
is because of
legal concerns unable
00:19:43.88\00:19:47.36
to leave the
country at that time.
00:19:47.37\00:19:48.74
But, how she will
survive I don't know.
00:19:49.17\00:19:55.54
Even the prime
minister of that country was
00:19:55.55\00:19:57.83
assassinated recently.
So no one is above this
00:19:57.84\00:20:00.38
retribution,
right, and her daughter we
00:20:00.39\00:20:02.89
heard had been
abducted some years earlier,
00:20:02.90\00:20:06.07
and the mother
had gone to the home,
00:20:06.08\00:20:07.37
and with others I
think climbed over the fence,
00:20:07.38\00:20:10.71
and gotten her
back from the abductees.
00:20:10.72\00:20:13.07
So this is the
wild and wily, yeah,
00:20:13.08\00:20:15.36
western somewhat. Right, right,
00:20:15.37\00:20:17.22
now we certainly are
blessed as Americans to be
00:20:17.23\00:20:20.18
able to speak so freely
about our beliefs and our
00:20:20.19\00:20:23.17
convictions, and it's
incredible like you said
00:20:23.18\00:20:26.34
you know to interact
with individuals or to
00:20:26.35\00:20:28.94
hear about these
stories. I mean this poor woman
00:20:28.95\00:20:31.27
in Pakistan who is now,
who is currently still in
00:20:31.28\00:20:34.12
prison there. The
governor was executed as we
00:20:34.13\00:20:36.53
mentioned but Miss
Bibi is still in prison,
00:20:36.54\00:20:40.16
I think she has
four or five children,
00:20:40.17\00:20:41.73
she is forty five years old.
00:20:41.74\00:20:42.90
Now this is a
poor village woman.
00:20:42.91\00:20:44.49
Yes, that's the super
tragedy that many people
00:20:45.41\00:20:51.41
would means or social
connections can escape
00:20:51.42\00:20:54.13
this, but it's usually
the poor people, right,
00:20:54.14\00:20:56.52
I use the word
advisedly, but the ignorant
00:20:58.65\00:21:00.45
person, yeah, that
get sucked up on with the
00:21:00.46\00:21:02.94
innocent. And now
it's has become sort of
00:21:02.95\00:21:05.00
this national, you
know there is this national
00:21:05.01\00:21:07.23
awareness around it,
it's even I think more
00:21:07.24\00:21:09.67
troubling for her
faith, because on the one
00:21:09.68\00:21:12.10
hand you know
think that those that are
00:21:12.11\00:21:16.00
interested in
forcing this law whether it's
00:21:16.01\00:21:18.48
through the law or like
you said at the hands of
00:21:18.49\00:21:21.03
individuals who
are passion about it.
00:21:21.04\00:21:23.07
I just, I certainly
pray for this woman and her
00:21:23.08\00:21:25.94
family, because it
doesn't seem to me like
00:21:25.95\00:21:28.67
it's going to be,
have a good ending.
00:21:28.68\00:21:30.56
Let me throw in an
interesting analogy
00:21:30.57\00:21:32.80
from an old film
that I saw recently and
00:21:32.81\00:21:36.90
Dr. John Graz and I've
been discussing it a bit,
00:21:36.91\00:21:40.29
you heard about it too.
There is a film that was
00:21:40.30\00:21:43.55
well received
many, many years ago
00:21:43.56\00:21:45.14
called the Seventh
Seal by the playwriting
00:21:45.15\00:21:48.67
Ingmar Bergman,
legendary Swedish playwright,
00:21:48.68\00:21:52.34
and it's almost
like a morality play.
00:21:52.35\00:21:54.54
It wouldn't really pass
muster under modern movie
00:21:54.55\00:21:57.85
conventions because
it's really is a morality
00:21:57.86\00:22:00.10
play where a
knight come back from the
00:22:00.11\00:22:02.99
Middle Age, in the
Middle Ages from the Crusades
00:22:03.00\00:22:05.51
comes back to
Sweden I think it is,
00:22:05.52\00:22:07.71
and it's in the
grip of the plague,
00:22:07.72\00:22:09.47
and religious,
prejudice, and natives religious
00:22:09.48\00:22:15.04
expression is running among.
00:22:15.05\00:22:16.44
People are believing
that God is punishing them
00:22:16.45\00:22:18.22
with the plague,
they are flagellating
00:22:18.23\00:22:20.72
themselves, and at
one point he comes to a
00:22:20.73\00:22:24.01
little village, and
here they are burning a
00:22:24.02\00:22:25.54
witch, but she is
just a young village girl
00:22:25.55\00:22:28.16
who doesn't know
anything and this guy looks in
00:22:28.17\00:22:30.47
the face, and he says
have you seen the devil,
00:22:30.48\00:22:32.31
and she looks the
demon uncomprehendingly
00:22:32.32\00:22:35.09
and babbling
about Garbo protector,
00:22:35.10\00:22:38.07
and he says you know
this poor little girl,
00:22:38.08\00:22:40.77
she doesn't have
anything, and the rough soldiers
00:22:40.78\00:22:42.81
they are hoisting her
up, inviting the fire,
00:22:42.82\00:22:44.82
and visually they
are illustrated what was
00:22:44.83\00:22:47.89
clearly the fact
that the Middle Age was
00:22:47.90\00:22:49.66
superstition run
amuck, these cunning in-laws
00:22:49.67\00:22:52.62
where maybe on an interaction,
00:22:52.63\00:22:55.06
but more likely just
some neighbor whispered,
00:22:55.07\00:22:56.99
didn't like this young
girl, right, and here she
00:22:57.00\00:22:59.45
is hoisted up. And I
really believe that this
00:22:59.46\00:23:01.40
is what is almost
certainly happened to
00:23:01.41\00:23:03.51
this woman. The
law is bad, right,
00:23:03.52\00:23:05.56
but the situation is egregious.
00:23:05.57\00:23:07.23
Right, it sounds like
a neighborhood woman sort
00:23:07.24\00:23:09.46
of took advantage of
the situation they had
00:23:09.47\00:23:11.33
some sort of
falling out, or they didn't,
00:23:11.34\00:23:12.94
they didn't like that
she want to maintain her
00:23:12.95\00:23:17.37
Christian faith,
and so this is now
00:23:17.38\00:23:19.93
where it has gone.
Our hearts certainly
00:23:19.94\00:23:21.95
goes out to her. Now we need to
00:23:21.96\00:23:24.29
make our viewers aware
that this same occasion
00:23:26.13\00:23:28.78
in Richmond, yeah.
This is the first freedom
00:23:28.79\00:23:31.07
foundation which is a
very reputable religious
00:23:31.08\00:23:35.01
liberty
organization based in Richmond,
00:23:35.02\00:23:37.05
of course
Virginia, the home state of
00:23:37.06\00:23:40.32
Thomas Jefferson,
and that's why it's
00:23:40.33\00:23:42.42
called the First
Freedom, yes, connecting it to
00:23:42.43\00:23:44.79
Thomas
Jefferson. They also honored
00:23:44.80\00:23:47.05
Dr. John Graz who has
appeared on this program
00:23:47.06\00:23:49.55
many times before,
right, several times,
00:23:49.56\00:23:52.02
and will appear again shortly.
00:23:52.03\00:23:53.49
We work closely with
him; he is not only leading
00:23:53.50\00:23:57.97
the religious liberty
for our well church of
00:23:57.98\00:24:00.40
Seventh-day
Adventist, but he heads up the
00:24:00.41\00:24:02.10
Christian world
commission as what's his title.
00:24:02.11\00:24:05.26
I don't know
but, General, is he a
00:24:05.27\00:24:08.28
Secretary General,
Secretary General, yes,
00:24:08.29\00:24:09.78
Secretary General, and the
00:24:09.79\00:24:10.76
International
Religious Liberty Association,
00:24:10.77\00:24:11.92
and the International Religious
00:24:11.93\00:24:13.11
Liberty Association
which is slightly older
00:24:13.12\00:24:16.68
vintage, even
the Liberty Magazine
00:24:16.69\00:24:18.25
well over the 100
years. And is a Swiss
00:24:18.26\00:24:23.37
citizen still, he is
very much the diplomatic
00:24:23.38\00:24:27.89
model of presenting
religious liberty around
00:24:27.90\00:24:30.46
the world. So it was
good from the point of
00:24:30.47\00:24:32.35
view what we're all
doing for religious liberty,
00:24:32.36\00:24:34.17
and our shared commitments
Seventh-day Adventist
00:24:34.18\00:24:37.01
to see him about
this. Oh absolutely,
00:24:37.02\00:24:39.41
regulation, he is so,
he was the national, yes,
00:24:39.42\00:24:41.51
award for their freedom award.
00:24:41.52\00:24:44.60
Yeah, he is so
deservingly certainly that's why
00:24:44.61\00:24:46.90
wanted to make
sure, show solidarity,
00:24:46.91\00:24:49.07
show solidarity
yes. John, Dr. Graz,
00:24:49.08\00:24:51.80
one of the situation,
one of the things that
00:24:53.19\00:24:54.92
he has feels encouraged
to do is to travel around
00:24:54.93\00:25:00.06
the world. And I
think he has been able to
00:25:00.07\00:25:01.31
attend some of these,
because he holds these
00:25:01.32\00:25:03.03
festivals religious
freedom all over the
00:25:03.04\00:25:05.30
world, and he not
only you know do we like to
00:25:05.31\00:25:09.84
highlight, or do we
feel it's necessary to
00:25:09.85\00:25:12.39
highlight situations
where there is religious
00:25:12.40\00:25:15.29
discrimination, or
religious persecution.
00:25:15.30\00:25:17.76
We also like to visit
countries, and thank them,
00:25:17.77\00:25:20.74
and right, for the
religious freedom that they
00:25:20.75\00:25:23.37
show their citizens are there.
00:25:23.38\00:25:24.43
It's a very you know
public officials sometimes
00:25:24.44\00:25:26.76
come to different
events that we organize,
00:25:26.77\00:25:28.54
but even when they
don't come to such an event,
00:25:28.55\00:25:31.44
whether it's, one
that he and I last,
00:25:31.45\00:25:33.49
I was last with
him, that was in the
00:25:33.50\00:25:36.38
Dominican
Republic and there were,
00:25:36.39\00:25:37.91
I think 20,000 or so
people in the stadium
00:25:37.92\00:25:41.08
mingling around
outside and all just yelling at
00:25:41.09\00:25:45.04
the innocent, you know thank you
00:25:45.05\00:25:46.87
for religious
freedom, thanks you and it's
00:25:46.88\00:25:49.55
certain that the
officials in that country would
00:25:49.56\00:25:51.65
pay attention, and
that time when we were in
00:25:51.66\00:25:53.86
the country, they
were in the process of
00:25:53.87\00:25:55.50
rewriting their
constitution, alright.
00:25:55.51\00:25:57.46
And we heard from the
minister of religious,
00:25:57.47\00:26:01.45
I think he was saying
that they were consciously
00:26:01.46\00:26:03.51
writing in the
separation of church and state
00:26:03.52\00:26:05.92
and the guarantee
for full religion,
00:26:05.93\00:26:07.46
religious freedom.
Oh praise the Lord.
00:26:07.47\00:26:08.44
Yeah, so that dynamic
when people are publicly
00:26:08.45\00:26:11.74
showing their
approval for religious freedom,
00:26:11.75\00:26:14.16
of course that
reinforces the positives in that
00:26:14.17\00:26:16.58
country, and
that's what we need.
00:26:16.59\00:26:19.06
Right, well congratulation so
00:26:19.07\00:26:20.53
much to Dr. Graz,
and we feel honor to
00:26:20.54\00:26:23.46
call him our
colleague, and we've certainly
00:26:23.47\00:26:26.03
enjoys ideas of your
and Lincoln as the host
00:26:26.04\00:26:29.57
of the show, enjoy having him as
00:26:29.58\00:26:31.51
participate apparently
certainly is a scholarly
00:26:31.52\00:26:34.75
man and well
deserving of the honor,
00:26:34.76\00:26:36.86
and so we're just
so grateful to be call
00:26:36.87\00:26:39.10
him colleague, and a friend.
00:26:39.11\00:26:41.50
This is sure blasphemy
is a very troubling one.
00:26:44.21\00:26:46.83
It is true that in the
Old Testament it says that
00:26:47.52\00:26:52.13
we're not take the
name of the Lord in vain.
00:26:52.14\00:26:54.80
But also says vengeance is mine,
00:26:54.81\00:26:57.79
I'll repay says the
Lord. The real issue is not
00:26:57.80\00:27:02.06
whether there is some
consequence to taking God
00:27:07.76\00:27:08.73
or religion lightly,
and speaking badly of it.
00:27:08.74\00:27:11.09
The issue is whether
the state is to take it upon
00:27:11.10\00:27:14.64
itself to punish such
miscreant or whether a
00:27:14.65\00:27:19.94
single religious group
is to punish another for
00:27:19.95\00:27:23.06
speaking ill of
their particular religion.
00:27:23.07\00:27:25.12
The security for all
should surely lie in the
00:27:25.69\00:27:29.55
separation of church and state.
00:27:29.56\00:27:31.19
It should lie in
the recognition that any
00:27:31.63\00:27:33.87
religion must be one
that sinks the best of
00:27:33.88\00:27:37.82
fellow men, thinks
the best of our fellows,
00:27:37.83\00:27:41.28
and represents the best
in the higher values that
00:27:41.82\00:27:45.93
DAT represents
to those around us.
00:27:45.94\00:27:49.40
Blasphemy, yes blasphemy exists,
00:27:49.41\00:27:52.41
but it is ultimately
the highest blasphemy to
00:27:52.42\00:27:56.05
kill and persecute our
fellows, because we do not
00:27:56.06\00:27:59.24
like the way they talk
about what we ourselves
00:27:59.25\00:28:02.35
believe. For Liberty Insider,
00:28:02.36\00:28:05.67
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:05.68\00:28:07.43