Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
that brings you up to
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date news, views
and discussion on
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religious liberty
events and developments.
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My name is
Lincoln Steed, Editor of
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Liberty Magazine.
And on the program
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is Melissa Reid
Associate Editor for
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Liberty
Magazine. Welcome Melissa,
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welcome back, because you have
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been on the program
number of times before.
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Well thank you so
much, it's a pleasure
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to be here. And like me you have
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a lot of opinions
as well knowledge on
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religious liberty
events. And what I would like
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to talk about on
this program is something
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fairly recent as
we film this program
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January 1, the Pope
of Rome, Pope Benedict
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once Cardinal
Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict
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gave a very good speech on World
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Peace Day, yes,
January 1, under the
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overall title
and I don't want to
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misrepresent it but
it was so significant to
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me, Religious
Freedom, the Path to Peace.
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Yes, it's been an interesting;
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we've seen a
couple of instances of the
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Pope addressing
this particular topic.
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January 1 was
the date the you are
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referring to that
particular speech and
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there was also one
on January 10 where he
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addressed the diplomatic core,
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and again covered
this exact same topic,
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so it seems to
clearly be a priority.
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Yes some commentators
have said that this is
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gonna be his focus
for the near term, yes,
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and you and I
could agree with that,
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and I know our
viewers who clearly
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thinks religious
liberty is more than a
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passing
importance, it's central. Yes.
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So you know
Seventh-day Adventists and other
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Christians, and
people of other faiths all
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believe in religious
liberty, so this is not
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an exclusive thing for
the Roman Catholic Church.
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Right, right. In
fact historically
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you know I could look at several
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hundred years
ago and say that the
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Roman Catholic
Church went through
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a phase but was anything but for
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religious freedom.
But at the present he
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is saying very
good things we have to
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applaud them.
Right, right, and we know
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that January 1st
speech was significant
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as we know just that
day or that evening in
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Egypt, Christian
Church was attacked,
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yeah, was bombed, I
think it was over 20
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people were killed,
21 people, 21 people
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killed, as the
reporting you never know,
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and it's worth
mentioning on these
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news events, the
tragedy is usually
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much, much
greater than the number
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killed, in fact in some ways
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they're the lucky
ones. I want people to be
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meant for life will
go through many, many
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years of rehabilitation
families just disrupted
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and destroyed,
right. This is a huge wave
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of tragedy for many
of these vicious attacks.
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Yeah unfortunately,
21 people there, yeah
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in the Pope's
message we noted that there's
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many places around the world he
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mentioned you know specifically,
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he mentioned Iraq,
Iraq and the Middle
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East as well as
Egypt as we said.
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Well he didn't
mention Egypt in the
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speech, he does in
the second speech, in the
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following, I'm
sorry, yes, you are correct.
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And in my view
that probably sharpened
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his opinions on
this topic that he is
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already interested
in, yeah, because that
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was almost in your
face reaction that is
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against this first
speech on January 1,
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I think it was later
that day certainly it
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wasn't incorporated
in the speech, here this
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action against
the corps in Egypt,
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that we'll talk a
little bit more about that
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later, illustrated very
succinctly that there is
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rising not just
intolerance violent,
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antagonism between,
and against certain faiths.
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Right, right, I know
that he has mentioned
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in the second speech
as well, he mentioned
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situations in Asia,
situations in Africa,
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and then we were
discussing earlier,
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and I thought
this was particularly
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interesting he mentioned Western
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Europe, and also
America, and how it
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was less violence
and more of, he was
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critical more
of putting religion
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almost on the
backburner and taking
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it out of public
discourse conversation, he was
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critical of
that. What he mentioned
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and is consistent
with what he said before
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but also what we got
the feature to Liberty
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Magazine, he said
the problem is not just
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radical fundamentalism
in religion which is a
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problem but radical
secularism, yeah, that
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tries to exclude
religion and on odd
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occasion is
actually violent toward them,
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since it's not
impossible for seculars to be
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violently anti-religious.
Usually it's just an
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exclusion sort
of mocking it out of
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existence, so using
existing laws to tamp
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down religion. So we need to be
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careful of both
these extremes of over
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religion or
religion gonna mock, right,
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and secularism that
hasn't often and they
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dislike of
religious activity. Yes.
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So I think he
kept a good balance,
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there were number of
things that caught my
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attention like I
wanted to share this with our
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viewers, he says
on page six of my
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printout of this
January 1 speech,
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he says
religious freedom expresses
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what is unique
about the human person for
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it allows us to
direct our personal and
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social life to
God in whose light the
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identity meaning and
purpose of the person
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that fully understood.
Now that's not really
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a definition of
religious liberty,
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but the seculars
will agree with even the
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secularists in the
United States who is
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more than comfortable
with the first amendment.
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I'm comfortable
with that because I think
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that's inherently
true, but we need to be
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careful when we are
talking about religious
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freedom that we
don't in essence project or
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demand that someone
accept our religious
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viewpoint to
accept the principle of
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religious freedom, right, right.
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And he continues
further he says to
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deny or arbitrarily
restrict this freedom is
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to foster a
reductive vision of the human
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person to eclipse the
public role of religion
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is to create a
society which is unjust,
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inasmuch as it fails
to take account of the
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true nature of the human person.
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And I think that's,
that's correct. Yeah.
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I mean in some ways
if there's no religious
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freedom and its
absolute there would
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be no religion
and of course without
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religion the human
spirit is stifled. Yeah.
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So in some ways
you know he is into
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tautology here but
it's very well presented
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we can't object to it per say.
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My only caution on
the January 1 speech
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in light of what we
had a program on this
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some time ago was
little bit further on,
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and I don't want
to misrepresent it so
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look at up, he
speaks of the family. Yes.
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Very important and
he says it should be
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clear that, I'm sorry
I got the wrong paper,
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that was the fundamentalist,
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but he speaks of
the family and he says
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parents should be
allowed to inculcate
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or teach their
children their religious values,
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and of course that
central to religious freedom.
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We know under the
communist era that
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was there frontal attack against
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religion, right,
used the children against
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the religious parents
and subvert the family
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from with inside,
turn the children against
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their parents and
ensure that it does not
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go another generation.
Right, and I was just
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gonna add we've just
recently had an issue
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or story in
Liberty where we've talked
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about
unfortunately the situations in
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United States,
where there's custody
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situations, oh absolutely,
and one and the state
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stepping in and not
allowing one parent to
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teach their child
religious pre-text or
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whatever so
it's interesting that
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it happens there in sort of
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western society as
well. And the custody ones are
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hard to judicate
because it isn't purely
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a matter of
religious freedom, there is a
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matter of minors
and which parent will
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have the authority to dictate
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religious instructions.
Right I thought that
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one was
particularly interesting because
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the state
decided to step in and be
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involved and
decide whether or not the
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religion was appropriate or not.
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Yeah. Anyway continue with what
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you were saying.
The angle that I would
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make on that it's
not in his speech, but we
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need to be
careful if a state has a
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negative viewpoint
of all religion or a
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particular
religious viewpoint, then it's
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much easier for it to
decide that it will step
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in even if this is
not a marital problem,
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they could just decide
that these parents with
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their religious viewpoints don't
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really reflect the
goals of the state, right,
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that they might feel
authorized to step in
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and in the United
States where we need
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to be careful of
that while a law stand
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good but if there's
an idea that a certain
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religion, and you
know at the moment
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this radical Islam
you could easily find
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the state could say well they're
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influencing these
children into radicalism
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therefore we'll
take them out, this is
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hypothetical but
it's a situation where it
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could happen but
unfortunately with
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law once they do that
they could just easily
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decide well you
know these snake handling
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Christians and they
are mentally unstable,
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we don't want
children in that environment.
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So this whole
aspect of the state
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determining the
religious viewpoint
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of children in the
families is a little dangerous.
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But I wanted to point
out this the family in
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the speech is that
the Pope's upholding the
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family but I don't
think it's a neutral
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statement because
in Europe at the moment
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and we had an
article in Liberty Magazine
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that you're well
aware of, yes, the church,
00:09:34.96\00:09:37.23
Catholic Church
and many other churches
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have been very
vigorous in pushing
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for what they
call family rest days,
00:09:45.22\00:09:47.03
right, Sunday, yes,
yes, not surprisingly,
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there's some logic on it but.
00:09:51.77\00:09:53.06
It seems quite contradictory to
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mandating a
particular day of family rest
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with religious
freedom that seems to be
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contradictory as
far as. Right and that's
00:10:02.20\00:10:03.53
why we featured it
in Liberty Magazine,
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it has an inbuilt
contradiction that
00:10:05.33\00:10:08.12
with the baggage
of history of any
00:10:08.13\00:10:11.44
religion, but particularly
in Europe, the Roman
00:10:11.45\00:10:14.00
Catholic Church has
shown that in the past
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it was hard to
resist the lure of power to
00:10:16.78\00:10:20.21
enforce religious
behavior, and so we
00:10:20.22\00:10:23.43
might be on another
slippery slope, and yet
00:10:23.44\00:10:25.58
with very good
intentions I think,
00:10:25.59\00:10:27.27
right, and
nothing harmful in the
00:10:27.73\00:10:30.31
implementation of
this because a family
00:10:30.32\00:10:31.95
rest day, fun.
Yes, of course we value
00:10:31.96\00:10:35.50
family you know
equally as far as you
00:10:35.51\00:10:39.95
know our beliefs and
our priorities as well.
00:10:39.96\00:10:42.54
Of course, yeah, so
overall this was a very
00:10:42.55\00:10:45.91
good speech in a
very bad context of
00:10:45.92\00:10:48.73
continuing
religious violence in one
00:10:48.74\00:10:53.47
country or
another, and we have to,
00:10:53.48\00:10:56.47
as I started out
this program we have to
00:10:57.00\00:10:59.02
give credit, it's due
to the Pope representing
00:10:59.03\00:11:03.67
what is it, the
billion Roman Catholics, yes.
00:11:03.68\00:11:05.74
For him to stand up
in the midst of just a
00:11:05.75\00:11:08.88
swirl of violence
much of it against
00:11:08.89\00:11:11.39
Christians, much
of it against Roman
00:11:11.40\00:11:12.93
Catholics around the
world, right, and to,
00:11:12.94\00:11:14.89
you know I would not
call names and not be
00:11:15.81\00:11:17.74
aggressive about it
but systematically go
00:11:17.75\00:11:20.48
through the logic,
the religious logic as he
00:11:20.49\00:11:22.68
does in the speech,
the legal background
00:11:22.69\00:11:25.37
he goes to the 1948
Universal Declaration
00:11:25.46\00:11:29.00
of Human Rights, United Nations,
00:11:29.01\00:11:30.49
Global governance
and then he ends on a
00:11:30.50\00:11:33.97
very spiritual
note. Right. And we have
00:11:33.98\00:11:36.76
to endorse that
and we will support as
00:11:36.77\00:11:39.15
anyone of good intention would
00:11:39.16\00:11:40.48
support that as long as
that's follow through with.
00:11:40.49\00:11:43.90
Right, right, and
absolutely and I want
00:11:43.91\00:11:44.88
to echo that with
the January 10 address
00:11:46.09\00:11:48.91
because this was, as
I mentioned earlier was
00:11:48.92\00:11:51.02
the address of the
diplomatic core and
00:11:51.03\00:11:53.75
it's really regard
as the most important
00:11:53.76\00:11:55.67
public policy
speech with the Pope makes
00:11:55.68\00:11:57.56
all the year. It's
like the State of the
00:11:57.57\00:11:58.54
Union. Exactly
the State of the Union
00:11:58.55\00:11:59.80
address and it
says you know here that
00:11:59.81\00:12:01.91
Pope Benedict
concentrated almost
00:12:02.21\00:12:03.66
exclusively on
the theme of religious
00:12:03.67\00:12:05.12
freedom, and so
to have to cover that
00:12:05.13\00:12:08.57
topic in such an
influential event is
00:12:08.58\00:12:12.61
really, he
identified religious freedom as
00:12:12.62\00:12:15.18
the first of
human rights, the first.
00:12:15.19\00:12:17.45
And we do
believe that, absolutely.
00:12:18.07\00:12:19.63
Few years ago as
you remember our Liberty
00:12:20.02\00:12:22.14
Awards Banquet we
had Hillary Clinton
00:12:22.15\00:12:24.15
who is now secretary
of state for the United
00:12:24.98\00:12:26.53
States and she
pointed out that you can
00:12:26.54\00:12:29.48
almost use it as a
litmus test of all civil
00:12:29.49\00:12:32.17
freedoms, how a
country administers
00:12:32.18\00:12:34.78
religious freedom,
yes. So yes, religious
00:12:34.79\00:12:38.22
freedom is central
not just because we are
00:12:38.23\00:12:40.58
involved with
religious liberty and
00:12:40.59\00:12:42.54
presenting liberty
magazine because it's
00:12:42.55\00:12:45.51
proven to be so for
general civil governance.
00:12:45.52\00:12:48.06
We'll be back after the break
00:12:48.40\00:12:49.49
to continue this discussion.
00:12:49.50\00:12:50.82
One-hundred
years, a long time to do
00:12:58.98\00:13:01.94
anything much less
publish a magazine,
00:13:01.95\00:13:04.27
but this year Liberty,
the Seventh-day Adventist
00:13:04.61\00:13:07.80
voice of religious
freedom, celebrates
00:13:07.81\00:13:09.95
one hundred years of
doing what it does best,
00:13:09.96\00:13:12.75
collecting,
analyzing, and reporting the ebb
00:13:12.91\00:13:16.04
and flow of
religious expression around the
00:13:16.05\00:13:18.23
world, issue after
issue, Liberty has taken on the
00:13:18.24\00:13:22.07
tough assignments,
tracking down threats
00:13:22.08\00:13:24.40
to religious freedom
and exposing the work
00:13:24.41\00:13:26.31
of the devil in
every corner of the globe.
00:13:26.32\00:13:28.68
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:29.07\00:13:31.53
corporate
assaults, even religious
00:13:31.91\00:13:33.87
freedom issues
sequestered within the
00:13:33.88\00:13:35.36
Church community
itself has been clearly
00:13:35.37\00:13:37.79
and honestly exposed.
Liberty exists for one
00:13:37.80\00:13:41.41
purpose to help God's
people maintain that all
00:13:41.42\00:13:44.72
important
separation of Church and State,
00:13:44.73\00:13:47.06
while recognizing
the dangers inherent
00:13:47.41\00:13:49.52
in such a struggle.
During the past century,
00:13:49.71\00:13:52.35
Liberty has experienced
challenges of its own,
00:13:52.72\00:13:54.72
but it remains on the
job. Thanks to the inspired
00:13:55.25\00:13:58.71
leadership of a long
line of dedicated Adventist
00:13:58.72\00:14:00.95
Editors, three of whom
represent almost half of
00:14:00.96\00:14:03.58
the publications
existence and the
00:14:03.59\00:14:05.45
foresight of a little
woman from New England.
00:14:05.46\00:14:08.00
One hundred years of
struggle, one hundred
00:14:08.68\00:14:11.09
years of victories,
religious freedom isn't
00:14:11.10\00:14:14.09
just about political machines
00:14:14.10\00:14:15.78
and cultural
prejudices. It's about people,
00:14:15.79\00:14:18.88
fighting for the right
to serve the God they love
00:14:19.40\00:14:22.19
as their hearts and
the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:22.62\00:14:25.42
Thanks to the prayers
and generous support of
00:14:25.98\00:14:28.06
Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere.
00:14:28.07\00:14:29.81
Liberty will continue
to accomplish its work of
00:14:30.37\00:14:32.78
providing timely
information, spirit-filled
00:14:32.79\00:14:35.10
inspiration, and
heaven sent encouragement to
00:14:35.11\00:14:37.94
all who long to live
and work in a world bound
00:14:37.95\00:14:42.06
together by the God ordained
00:14:42.07\00:14:43.87
bonds of religious freedom.
00:14:43.88\00:14:46.24
Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:14:56.65\00:14:58.66
Before the break
with guest Melissa Reid,
00:14:59.54\00:15:02.13
Associate Editor
of Liberty Magazine,
00:15:02.41\00:15:04.29
and to repeat I am
Lincoln Steed, Editor
00:15:04.30\00:15:06.46
of Liberty
Magazine. We work together
00:15:06.47\00:15:08.30
during the week but this
is not the usual occurrence.
00:15:10.00\00:15:12.84
And we've treat. Yes, yes,
00:15:12.85\00:15:14.75
for our guest to
be on this program.
00:15:14.98\00:15:18.17
We were talking
about I hope what is
00:15:18.18\00:15:21.74
not rare on this
program but deserved
00:15:21.75\00:15:24.11
in this case. We're
speaking well of what
00:15:24.12\00:15:26.72
the Pope of Rome
said, on two recent
00:15:26.83\00:15:29.53
occasions in formal
speeches in January 1
00:15:29.54\00:15:31.68
and January 10,
on religious freedom,
00:15:31.69\00:15:35.18
right, and we have
too very well done.
00:15:35.19\00:15:37.83
Obviously the
record of history for his
00:15:38.47\00:15:40.48
particular church
is, let's just say
00:15:40.49\00:15:43.59
improvement over
the years, Yes, yes.
00:15:43.60\00:15:45.49
And I should specify
that there has been an
00:15:46.29\00:15:48.19
argument within
the Roman Catholic
00:15:48.20\00:15:49.81
Church about how they relate
00:15:49.82\00:15:51.47
to religious
liberty. Yes, and it's
00:15:51.48\00:15:53.61
interesting as I
am sure many of our
00:15:53.62\00:15:55.53
viewers are also
reader of Liberty Magazine.
00:15:55.54\00:15:57.69
They've noted I
think there's been a couple
00:15:57.70\00:16:00.03
of different
occasions where you've mentioned
00:16:00.04\00:16:01.62
in your
editorials, I am sure you've
00:16:01.63\00:16:03.01
mentioned on this show as well,
00:16:03.02\00:16:04.47
sort of the inconsistency
of and again I go back
00:16:05.22\00:16:09.13
to the January
10 speech where the
00:16:09.14\00:16:11.75
Pope is addressing the
diplomatic community and
00:16:12.31\00:16:14.93
that's because the Holy See.
00:16:14.94\00:16:17.44
He claims he is a
head of state, right,
00:16:17.45\00:16:19.04
technically I like that word.
00:16:19.05\00:16:20.49
Right, he is a head
of state, the Holy See,
00:16:20.50\00:16:22.14
Vatican has diplomatic relations
00:16:22.15\00:16:23.84
with the 178
different nations, and so it's
00:16:23.85\00:16:27.20
interesting, the inconsistency
00:16:27.21\00:16:29.22
there to be
promoting religious freedom,
00:16:29.23\00:16:32.08
but yet this head
of church also being a
00:16:32.09\00:16:35.29
head of state, and
so, now what I've said,
00:16:35.30\00:16:37.75
definitely have
concerns in that area.
00:16:37.76\00:16:39.22
But what I've said
in Liberty magazine and
00:16:39.23\00:16:41.96
I don't intent
any malice whatsoever
00:16:41.97\00:16:44.56
toward the Roman
Catholic Church or
00:16:44.57\00:16:47.95
the Pope. But structurally since
00:16:47.96\00:16:50.30
they have the
structure that ever
00:16:50.31\00:16:51.75
came about the story
but structurally it's
00:16:51.76\00:16:55.06
unworkable in the
United States with the
00:16:55.07\00:16:57.68
separation of church
and state. Right, right.
00:16:57.69\00:16:59.99
That's been a very good model,
00:17:00.00\00:17:01.58
unfortunately some
Protestants even in
00:17:02.60\00:17:05.98
the United States
are speaking badly but
00:17:05.99\00:17:08.28
arguably it's been
a very good model to
00:17:08.29\00:17:10.27
maintain freedom
for all Catholic, Roman
00:17:10.28\00:17:12.45
Catholic,
Christian, Muslim, whatever
00:17:12.46\00:17:14.41
doesn't matter.
Right, right, and while we
00:17:14.42\00:17:16.01
certainly don't
want discrimination for
00:17:16.02\00:17:17.64
religious, for
religion and the world at large,
00:17:17.65\00:17:22.00
we certainly don't
want favoritism for
00:17:22.48\00:17:23.87
religion at
large and seems to me
00:17:23.88\00:17:26.64
there are sort of
situation of being the
00:17:28.82\00:17:30.71
head of state as
well and having an
00:17:30.72\00:17:32.33
opportunity to
address, you know diplomat in
00:17:32.34\00:17:34.43
this matter where
other heads of religion puts
00:17:34.44\00:17:37.27
it on different
level, does show a bit of
00:17:37.28\00:17:38.62
favoritism in my
opinion. And of course that is
00:17:38.63\00:17:41.42
the way to the problems of the
00:17:41.43\00:17:43.21
middle ages where
church and state are
00:17:43.22\00:17:46.55
seen as one entity,
that is the present way
00:17:46.56\00:17:49.04
of troubles when
we look at the Middle
00:17:49.54\00:17:51.30
East where they
don't accept any division
00:17:51.31\00:17:53.98
between church
and state and some
00:17:53.99\00:17:56.86
governments
themselves, or some population
00:17:56.87\00:17:59.27
and mullahs and
imams and so on are
00:17:59.28\00:18:01.30
pushing to
incorporate the most extreme
00:18:01.31\00:18:04.23
elements of their
religious practice into
00:18:04.24\00:18:06.56
the law of the land.
Right. I think myself, not
00:18:06.57\00:18:10.97
talking about
Roman Colossus well,
00:18:10.98\00:18:12.68
but I think that's
not even good for the
00:18:12.69\00:18:14.41
average Muslim
when an extreme form of
00:18:14.42\00:18:16.24
their religion is
administered that way,
00:18:16.25\00:18:18.59
but its
horrendous say for the Coptic
00:18:18.60\00:18:21.54
Christians in Egypt
or the Syrian Christians
00:18:21.55\00:18:24.67
in Iraq and Syria. Right, right.
00:18:24.72\00:18:29.18
That's not very, I
mean it's not, not very
00:18:29.19\00:18:31.26
good, they not only
marginalize they can
00:18:31.27\00:18:33.43
be legally
penalized and imprisoned for
00:18:33.44\00:18:35.95
that sort of an amalgamation of
00:18:35.96\00:18:38.17
church and state.
So it's inherently very
00:18:38.18\00:18:40.65
bad not
unworkable, but it works in the
00:18:40.66\00:18:43.08
way to the detrimental
of religious freedom.
00:18:43.09\00:18:44.68
Right. So in that
regard, we tuk tuk over Rome.
00:18:44.85\00:18:50.16
Yes. And it's the
merest technicalities
00:18:50.17\00:18:54.54
of the states
that's only few tens of
00:18:54.55\00:18:57.34
acres, right,
might be 300 acres.
00:18:57.35\00:18:59.39
But it's basically
St. Peters, on the papal
00:18:59.40\00:19:01.54
court is at the back. Right.
00:19:01.55\00:19:02.92
And you know
Mussolini reinstated
00:19:04.40\00:19:07.77
that by the Lateran
Treaty giving little bit
00:19:07.78\00:19:10.34
of land to Rome and set
it up as a separate state.
00:19:10.35\00:19:13.97
Right. Whether or
not it's really truly as
00:19:13.98\00:19:17.56
separate as the
fiction, I think any visitor to
00:19:17.57\00:19:20.56
Rome has to
decide for themselves.
00:19:20.57\00:19:22.34
I remember
myself visiting the US
00:19:22.65\00:19:25.70
ambassador to the
Holy See residence
00:19:25.71\00:19:28.32
and it was in Rome, it
wasn't in the Holy See.
00:19:28.33\00:19:31.10
Right, right,
right, another topic that
00:19:31.11\00:19:35.44
we've, is very closely
related that we've just
00:19:35.45\00:19:37.39
also recently
covered or we were working,
00:19:37.40\00:19:39.84
its gonna be in the
March, April issue of
00:19:40.14\00:19:41.50
Liberty magazine.
He is talking about
00:19:41.51\00:19:44.22
the Red Mass and
again how those that
00:19:44.23\00:19:47.09
line is so blurred
for those of you of our
00:19:47.10\00:19:51.01
viewers that are
familiar with the Red
00:19:51.02\00:19:52.20
Mass, it's the, I
believe it's the first
00:19:52.21\00:19:56.61
Monday in
October when the Supreme
00:19:56.62\00:19:58.14
Court goes back in
the session and Catholic
00:19:58.15\00:20:00.99
churches still the
one best known is in
00:20:01.00\00:20:04.43
Washington DC.
The one we featured
00:20:04.44\00:20:05.69
into this, I mean
in Washington but they
00:20:05.70\00:20:08.58
are all over and I
think it's design for
00:20:08.59\00:20:10.38
politicians, isn't
it? Yeah, this called the
00:20:10.39\00:20:12.75
Red Mass and it's
designed for politicians to come
00:20:12.76\00:20:16.86
again the day before
the courts open for the
00:20:16.87\00:20:19.91
new session, and it's
very interesting in the
00:20:19.92\00:20:23.44
article I was just
looking at it last evening.
00:20:23.45\00:20:26.16
A lot of times, we've
heard oh, this is not a
00:20:27.59\00:20:29.83
big deal; this is
not something to be
00:20:29.84\00:20:31.27
concerned about
because it's just
00:20:31.28\00:20:32.77
innocuous religious service.
00:20:32.78\00:20:34.67
And I was surprised at attendees
00:20:34.99\00:20:37.59
with Justice Ginsburg.
She rejected to it, said
00:20:38.70\00:20:40.81
she would never go
again. She would never go
00:20:40.82\00:20:42.49
again, she was
preached too about,
00:20:42.50\00:20:44.32
you know abortion or
issues that these that
00:20:44.49\00:20:46.38
are on the doctrine they taught,
00:20:46.39\00:20:47.94
you know, about.
And more importantly
00:20:48.67\00:20:50.21
since we've both
read the articles you went
00:20:50.92\00:20:52.45
with her good
friends, the Scalia.
00:20:52.46\00:20:56.12
Yes, and they were
embarrassed for her.
00:20:56.13\00:20:58.63
They were embarrassed for her,
00:20:58.64\00:20:59.61
so this wasn't just a Jewish
00:20:59.62\00:21:01.32
Supreme Court
justice. Right, and there was
00:21:03.40\00:21:05.45
another situation
it was a Rehnquist that
00:21:05.46\00:21:08.11
was talking about he was a Roman
00:21:08.12\00:21:09.54
Catholic, and was
attended and again
00:21:09.55\00:21:12.08
you know felt it
was very inappropriate
00:21:12.32\00:21:14.17
how they were you know preach to
00:21:14.18\00:21:18.53
influence on
particular topics and again for
00:21:18.54\00:21:21.74
us, you know, as
supporters of this wall
00:21:21.75\00:21:24.68
of separation of
church and state,
00:21:24.69\00:21:26.22
I think it's very concerning,
00:21:26.23\00:21:27.46
you know, I
think sometimes we are
00:21:27.88\00:21:30.06
criticized for
saying it's not big deal,
00:21:30.07\00:21:32.51
its just the
formality but it seems like and
00:21:32.52\00:21:34.46
when you see these
references, it feels
00:21:34.47\00:21:38.02
like it's inappropriate.
It's inappropriate,
00:21:38.03\00:21:39.93
it's clearly not
illegal although it's part of
00:21:40.81\00:21:44.16
the spectrum the US is presently
00:21:44.17\00:21:46.22
experiencing not just with Roman
00:21:46.23\00:21:48.24
Catholics, in fact
not particularly but even
00:21:48.25\00:21:50.75
there are churches
during the different
00:21:50.76\00:21:52.24
elections have
taken more and more to
00:21:52.25\00:21:53.88
publicly
promoting candidate from the
00:21:54.11\00:21:57.31
pulpit and political viewpoints.
00:21:57.32\00:22:00.46
That none of that is
good and in theory all
00:22:00.80\00:22:03.02
of that should not
take place because of the
00:22:03.03\00:22:05.43
separation of
church and state, and they
00:22:05.44\00:22:07.50
could loose their
tax exempt status which
00:22:07.51\00:22:10.10
is a recognition
that they are non-profit
00:22:10.11\00:22:11.79
church
organization. So you know we
00:22:11.80\00:22:14.97
would want to say
that the Red Mass is
00:22:14.98\00:22:16.57
the most egregious
case but it is one of
00:22:16.58\00:22:18.87
the more, more public
displays of this, right,
00:22:18.88\00:22:22.61
and it has again
the burden of history.
00:22:22.62\00:22:24.69
Rome came up with the very good
00:22:27.32\00:22:28.54
document go down
one level document
00:22:28.55\00:22:31.14
written by the
present Pope when he was in
00:22:31.38\00:22:33.88
charge of the
congregation for the
00:22:33.89\00:22:36.85
doctrine of the
faith called memory and
00:22:36.86\00:22:39.43
reconciliation. Yes.
And on the face of it
00:22:39.44\00:22:43.36
an apology for some
of the excesses of the
00:22:43.37\00:22:45.74
past including the
inquisition which he
00:22:45.75\00:22:49.51
was, that offers
really was the continuation
00:22:49.52\00:22:52.63
of the
inquisition. So you know they
00:22:53.52\00:22:56.66
have recognized
their past but we shouldn't
00:22:56.67\00:22:59.02
allow them or anyone
to drift back into the
00:22:59.03\00:23:03.45
ways of the past
and the ways of the past
00:23:03.46\00:23:05.48
were exactly that
where you have the
00:23:05.49\00:23:07.08
prayer lot standing
along side the king,
00:23:07.09\00:23:11.22
or the local
governor and he would give his
00:23:12.50\00:23:14.78
spiritual exaltation
and then the government
00:23:14.79\00:23:16.88
would go out and
execute it. Right.
00:23:16.89\00:23:18.63
And what are they
accepting when they
00:23:19.71\00:23:22.15
invite the
Supreme Court justices and
00:23:22.16\00:23:24.98
another top
people there and then wag
00:23:25.18\00:23:27.43
their finger to them
and tell them that they
00:23:27.44\00:23:28.85
must shape up such a
matter in particularly,
00:23:28.86\00:23:31.79
the change
dynamic when a very high
00:23:32.85\00:23:34.24
percentage of
that Supreme Court are
00:23:34.25\00:23:36.09
children of the
church, yes, because
00:23:36.46\00:23:37.79
they are allowed to be,
nothing constitutionally
00:23:37.80\00:23:39.58
wrong but the
dynamic become loaded.
00:23:39.59\00:23:41.75
Yes, yes. And we
just have to be very
00:23:41.96\00:23:44.55
careful in
guarding not just religious
00:23:44.69\00:23:47.67
liberty in its legal
sense, but in its social
00:23:47.68\00:23:50.11
and structural sense.
We are not in enmeshing
00:23:50.12\00:23:54.16
ourselves in the
habits in the forms
00:23:54.17\00:23:56.53
of another era. Right,
it's interesting another
00:23:57.20\00:24:00.05
article I was reading
and again this is part
00:24:00.06\00:24:02.06
of a series that
Liberty is doing right now.
00:24:02.07\00:24:04.00
Professor David
Trimm that we've,
00:24:05.15\00:24:06.73
I think you had
him here before as the
00:24:06.74\00:24:08.16
casting. Yes, he
has been on this program
00:24:08.17\00:24:09.39
about 3, 4 times
actually. Yes, yes and, and he
00:24:09.40\00:24:11.83
has written a
number of series for us.
00:24:11.84\00:24:13.22
Fantastic historian,
but and an Australian,
00:24:13.23\00:24:15.95
I will throw in that
okay, another Australian.
00:24:15.96\00:24:17.82
He is, in this
particular series or in
00:24:17.99\00:24:20.62
this particular
article where he is talking
00:24:20.63\00:24:21.96
about Augustine
particularly and it was
00:24:21.97\00:24:24.04
interesting what
you just said as far as
00:24:24.05\00:24:26.05
the church who
was talking about the
00:24:26.70\00:24:29.61
reformation and
then also doing this
00:24:29.62\00:24:34.68
persecution the
series that stresses on
00:24:34.69\00:24:37.10
Christian
persecution, or the Christian
00:24:37.11\00:24:38.64
persecutory
influence. And what we're trying
00:24:38.65\00:24:40.70
to show there is
that Christian persecuted
00:24:40.71\00:24:42.51
Christians for a
long time. Yes, but it was
00:24:42.52\00:24:44.65
interesting because
they, he had a very,
00:24:44.66\00:24:46.97
he felt very much that
he was doing God's will.
00:24:48.85\00:24:51.96
Persecution was
God's will, but it was.
00:24:52.46\00:24:54.77
It means the road
to hell is paved with
00:24:54.78\00:24:56.16
good intentions.
Yes, of course but it was
00:24:56.17\00:24:57.76
interesting
because the church do not
00:24:57.77\00:24:59.32
have at the
particular time in history did
00:24:59.33\00:25:01.30
not have the power
to do this, and so it
00:25:01.31\00:25:04.05
would work with
the citizen as per the,
00:25:04.06\00:25:06.04
you know
recantation of what was said or
00:25:06.43\00:25:08.74
some sort of thing,
and then once it was
00:25:08.75\00:25:10.42
just, once it was
determined that they
00:25:10.43\00:25:13.01
needed to be
killed for their things.
00:25:13.02\00:25:14.70
Then they
immediately handed them over the
00:25:14.91\00:25:15.99
state and the state
did the bidding, and so
00:25:16.00\00:25:17.99
what's interesting
how they worked hand in
00:25:18.00\00:25:19.38
hand like that. Of
course, and that's part
00:25:19.39\00:25:21.68
of the
explanation is to why those
00:25:21.69\00:25:24.66
apologies for the
inquisition and they
00:25:24.67\00:25:26.47
were some as
recently as a decade or two
00:25:26.48\00:25:29.46
ago in the
Catholic Church when they
00:25:29.47\00:25:32.33
were trying to
distance from those
00:25:32.34\00:25:36.59
days, and those
people were pointing out.
00:25:36.60\00:25:38.65
There were not
too many people were
00:25:38.66\00:25:40.35
actually killed by
the inquisition more than
00:25:40.36\00:25:42.92
they thought
perhaps but not as many as
00:25:42.93\00:25:45.00
really were
enmeshed in midst in the
00:25:45.01\00:25:46.31
dynamic because the
state usually was the
00:25:46.32\00:25:48.92
one that dealt
with the situation.
00:25:48.93\00:25:50.28
Right, we really
only need to look to the
00:25:50.36\00:25:52.27
crucifixion of
Christ in the same sort of
00:25:52.28\00:25:54.55
example where the
Jews were asking for
00:25:54.56\00:25:57.66
His crucifixion
and then the Roman were
00:25:57.67\00:25:59.37
the, in fact, the
ones you know to prefer
00:25:59.38\00:26:01.33
the court and
carried out the execution.
00:26:01.34\00:26:03.21
And then things
become more logical
00:26:03.38\00:26:04.89
and theological.
Yes. You know, it's better
00:26:04.90\00:26:06.75
that one man that
should die then the
00:26:06.76\00:26:08.24
nation should
perish. The state can think
00:26:08.25\00:26:10.33
about that but
the religious powers
00:26:10.34\00:26:13.12
I think they need to
think on moral absolutes.
00:26:13.13\00:26:15.07
Right, right.
There is no question.
00:26:15.44\00:26:16.41
Well, certainly it
has been a interesting
00:26:16.63\00:26:17.73
conversation as far
as religious freedom,
00:26:17.74\00:26:19.81
and we certainly do
applaud the Pope for
00:26:19.82\00:26:21.82
bringing it to the
forefront of the minds
00:26:21.83\00:26:25.00
of both the
diplomatic community and also
00:26:25.01\00:26:26.88
the world at large
in peace speech there in
00:26:26.89\00:26:30.40
January 1 and highlighting the
00:26:30.41\00:26:33.41
situations in
Africa and Asia, and
00:26:33.71\00:26:36.26
Western Europe,
and United States.
00:26:36.27\00:26:37.92
All of these
situations happening as far as
00:26:38.31\00:26:40.39
Christians being persecuted,
00:26:40.40\00:26:42.15
and we certainly
do applaud recognition
00:26:42.16\00:26:45.07
of those events
and asking for ceasing
00:26:45.08\00:26:49.43
those particular situations.
00:26:49.70\00:26:51.10
It is always good to
hear a public official
00:26:52.41\00:26:54.72
particularly the
leader of a church speaking
00:26:54.73\00:26:57.17
out so favorably
for religious freedom.
00:26:57.18\00:26:59.81
Recent speeches
by the Pope of Rome,
00:27:01.21\00:27:03.86
Pope Benedict as
he began the year 2011
00:27:03.87\00:27:08.44
in favor of religious
liberty are gratifying.
00:27:09.05\00:27:11.92
We do know though
that there is some
00:27:12.65\00:27:14.68
continuing debate
within Rome itself
00:27:14.69\00:27:17.87
over the nature of
religious freedom and
00:27:18.79\00:27:21.40
other basic
modern understanding.
00:27:21.41\00:27:24.50
Vatican II was a
time of change and within
00:27:24.51\00:27:28.48
the church there
are some who do not
00:27:28.49\00:27:31.30
agree with this
new approach and would
00:27:31.77\00:27:33.76
cling to the
earlier statements of the
00:27:33.77\00:27:36.24
Pope who once said
that religious freedom
00:27:36.25\00:27:38.86
is the pernicious
concept. I think we will gladly
00:27:38.87\00:27:44.29
give the benefit of
the doubt to this present
00:27:44.57\00:27:46.78
statements and
hold any church and in
00:27:46.79\00:27:50.54
particular this church
and statements accountable.
00:27:50.55\00:27:53.18
But not for the past
but for the integrity of
00:27:53.97\00:27:56.45
those statements
because with religious
00:27:56.46\00:27:58.39
freedom understood
clearly stated in enact
00:27:58.55\00:28:01.53
to deep on all of our
faith imperatives are secure.
00:28:01.54\00:28:05.24
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:06.80\00:28:09.76