Welcome to the
Liberty Insider, this is the
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program that will
bring you updates,
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news discussion and
all around information
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for religious liberty issues.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest on
the program is Attorney
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Alan Reinach. Alan,
welcome back to the program.
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Thank you very much Lincoln.
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Let's really hit a
contentious topic now,
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marriage. Well.
Of course, I can hear
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a thousand standup
comedians lining up
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to take shots at marriage.
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Well you know, Robin
Williams had the best
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line about same
sex marriage, he said
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I don't see what the
big deal is everybody
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has been married
now, it's all the same.
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Well, we'll not even get
into that, bad marriage is
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in that way easily
or marriages to generate
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and that's true. But you
know there is no question
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that the rising prominence,
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the homosexual lifestyle
and the new found rights
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and you know
the movements toward
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homosexual court
marriage and this is you know
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that we call it
marriage it has brought marriage
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itself into prominence
and there's being efforts
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most notably the
proportionate in California
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to legally redefine or
legally define marriages
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between a man and a
woman, any Christian
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is known that
so for a long time.
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But here there's a legal
attempt to, to limit it to
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what we have
understood is true marriage.
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The courts have
come a long way Lincoln
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we think that the
battle is simply over you know
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a marriage is a man or
woman whether it wil be
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extended to same sex couples,
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it's far beyond that point.
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Marriage itself has
been ruled not just by
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a court in
California, but in your own neck
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of the woods in Washington D.C.
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Marriage itself is
illegal discrimination,
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it violates basic
human rights and the logic
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of it is really not
simply to open up marriage
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to same sex couples,
but to really undermine
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any authority of the
state to either promote or
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even restrict
marriage because marriage now
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is as a fundamental
right, an expression of pure
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personal choice,
personal gratification,
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sexual fulfillment.
And when you look at it
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that way what
business does the state
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have to tell you that
you can't marry your sister,
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that if you're a
bisexual that you can't marry
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a man and a
woman at the same time.
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If that's what the
fundamental right is,
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a fundamental
right of sexual freedom,
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of privacy, of autonomy
in personal relationships.
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And marriage is no
longer a social institution
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for the preservation
of the society and the
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raising of the children
in the welfare of the next
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generation,
we're undermining the
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foundation of the
entire civilization.
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Well it seems to me
there's two things going on,
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there's a lowered
respect for the norms
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that might derive
from Christianity or any
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religious tradition
and also there's clearly a
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devolution of
society from it's accepted
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morays of previous times.
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Because it seems odd
to me or it's not odd but
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it's bizarre that
we're trying to shore up
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marriage in using
Christianity where
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with very few
exceptions throughout the whole
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cavalcade human history.
Marriage has been accepted
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for what it is, the
only divergence might be
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how many wives?
Right. But marriage is hardly
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a unique construct that
you can say well just this
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relation. It's not
a Western, it's not a
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Christian, it's not a
Jewish, it's a Universal.
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So, so. But try to understand.
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That our society is
about to throw it out tells me
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quite apart from
morality that just society,
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we don't really have
the guidelines anymore,
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we're in an open territory
and. And let's be clear
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the issue is not
whether same sex marriage poses
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some sort of, you
know terminal threat to the
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to the institution of marriage.
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Same sex marriage is
not a cause it's a symptom,
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exactly, of a much
larger disease. I don't for,
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for a moment
believe that what a same sex
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couple does in their
relationship is going to
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determine the
future of marriage,
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future of my marriage.
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It's not that what they're
doing is somehow harming,
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it's that the fact
that society is redefining
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marriage from being an
institution that protects
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children that provides
for the social, emotional,
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spiritual, physical, academic
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prosperity of children.
I mean one of the things
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we don't hear about
in the media, we're not
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hearing about it
enough in the court cases
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is all the statistics
show that yes children
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really do need a father
and a mother, and this is
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not a religious
thing. Children in intact
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homes with the father
and mother have better
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economic futures,
better academic outcomes,
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better social,
better emotional health,
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there's no
question. And, and, you know
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I don't wanna be
foolish and I would be attacked
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via letters and phone
calls if I claim to be
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an expert on the
psychology and the
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sexuality and all of
that. But it's abundantly
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obvious that a
significant precipitating factor
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in homosexual behavior
is the dynamic of parents.
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And I mean a
troublesome dynamic often where
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one parent is
absent or a parent that
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assumed another
role. So I think we're on,
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but I Lincoln,
there's so much, psychology
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that underlies it shows that our
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society is disruptive.
So to institutionalize
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that disruption cannot be good.
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There's so much in
this discussion where those
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of us who favor
marriage are I think unfairly
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characterize as homophobic
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and hostile to homosexuality.
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To me the issue of
homosexuality is beside
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the point okay, we
have a federal court,
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it was besides the
point for this, you know
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Judge Walker, Judge
Walker in San Francisco
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ruled that there is no
other bases for a society
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to preserve
marriages of man and a woman
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except essentially
for religious bigotry.
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Marriage is nothing
short of religious bigotry.
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What I, you know
what I'm trying to say is
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it has nothing to do
with attitudes towards
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homosexuality, it has
every thing to do with
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an understanding of the
significance of marriage
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itself as a social
institution and the
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importance of a father
and mother to children.
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It has nothing to
do with homosexuality,
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so for Judge Walker
to equate, to equate the
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voting for
proposition aid for a ballot
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initiative in
favor of marriages of man
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and a woman to
equate that with bigotry
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towards homosexuals,
I think it's completely
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misguided. Does he say
that the, the promotion of
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proposition aid
is religious bigotry
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in marriage? Yes.
Yes. Or that marriage as it
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exists is religious bigotry?
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The judge here in,
judge, well we've got a
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trial judge here in
the district of Columbia
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and we have a three
judge panel on the district of
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Columbia court of appeals
who said that marriage is
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discriminatory,
it violates the human
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rights charter of the
city of Washington D.C.
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They would not
even permit the voters,
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the citizens of Washington
to vote on an initiative,
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on the ballet whether
to preserve marriage as a
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man and a
woman. This was beyond,
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I wanna go back to a
point we made earlier
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which I think the
judge couldn't be so
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unaware of it. It's no
question that Christians
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in America are
anxious to protect marriage
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but by means
historically could you show that
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marriage just exists
in our Western continuum
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because
Christianity suddenly appeared.
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Marriage is not
exclusively Christian,
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it exists in every
culture, every civilization,
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India, China,
Buddhist, Hindu I don't care,
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Muslim, it's a
universal. It's true, I think an
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argument could be made
that Christianity taking
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an existing, at least in
recent history an existing
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social structure has
arguably moderated or
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softened the contractual
relationship and made
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it more emotional
and spiritual, but it's
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certainly not a
Christian construct as far as
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history is
concerned. Well from a Christian
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stand point of
course we go back to the
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Garden of Eden that
there were two institutions.
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Biblical, if you
accept the, I mean with the
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premise of course
that God created everything
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all from one but as far
as the historical record
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all societies have
seem to come at the same
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point in their
different development and they
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didn't throw off
marriage just because they,
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they departed from
the worship of God.
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So it's
something innate in the way
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human beings
interact. Well, and one of the
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legal arguments I
think the judges have ignored
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is that the burden
of proof given thousands
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of years of human
history where marriage
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has been the norm.
The burden of proof is
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on those who wanna
change it to show that
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society would somehow
be improved by changing
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the basic norms. And,
and, and, and I haven't read
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all of the
arguments of that case but.
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I have read it
over and over again.
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Well then tell me if
I'm on to this, I, I,
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years ago, I used
to listened to that,
00:10:13.82\00:10:15.73
I've mentioned on this
program before I listened
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in Australia, beginning
in Australia to some of the
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public debate from
socialists and Anarchists
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for want of a better
word. Many of them were
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pushing a
homosexual agenda or even then
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when I was young
long ago and the premises
00:10:28.83\00:10:32.35
basically a socialist
one or a progressively
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socialist one that
the norms of our society
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including Christianity
are false and abusive and
00:10:38.28\00:10:42.19
that we need to get
rid of this prosthetic,
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they're ultimately
opposed to a male domination
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and the nuclear
family structure and all
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should be thrown
out. You don't see that,
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I believe it, you don't
see that, that's what I'm
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fishing for. I hope the
judge is gonna drop that
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because that's usually
the argument underlining
00:10:59.89\00:11:02.24
the more radical
philosophically inclined
00:11:02.25\00:11:05.12
gay movement. I
don't hardly think that
00:11:05.73\00:11:07.70
all those involved
in the gay movement
00:11:07.71\00:11:09.28
I don't understand it.
But it predates the modern
00:11:09.29\00:11:11.94
gay moment
because the gay movements
00:11:11.95\00:11:14.48
sense of change
from the existing society
00:11:14.77\00:11:18.27
derived from
this earlier thinking
00:11:18.28\00:11:20.13
which was very problematic.
00:11:20.14\00:11:21.65
And it's amazing that
in a day when we're being
00:11:21.95\00:11:23.54
told that the
present regime is bringing
00:11:23.55\00:11:25.62
socialism and so on.
This view that many people
00:11:25.63\00:11:28.90
have adopted it, route
I think is realistically
00:11:28.91\00:11:31.91
socialistic. Well, there's
two different prospectives
00:11:31.92\00:11:35.57
in terms of attack
on marriage, the lesbian
00:11:35.58\00:11:38.19
prospective
clearly sees marriage as an
00:11:38.20\00:11:41.86
institution of male
oppression and they'd
00:11:41.87\00:11:44.72
like to do
anything they can to end it.
00:11:44.73\00:11:46.81
So the specter of
two women desiring to
00:11:47.12\00:11:50.63
marry, well they may
genuinely desire that,
00:11:50.64\00:11:53.72
but from the stand
point of the lesbian
00:11:53.73\00:11:56.80
philosophical agenda
is not to get two women
00:11:56.81\00:12:00.39
to be able to
marry, but to destroy
00:12:00.40\00:12:02.49
the institution
entirely. Yeah now there's no
00:12:02.50\00:12:04.88
question in gender, I
think part of it is an
00:12:04.89\00:12:08.15
unfortunate out growth
of a break down in society,
00:12:08.16\00:12:11.33
people were carrying
the neurosis to unfulfilled
00:12:11.34\00:12:14.75
desires to marriage
even though that they might
00:12:14.76\00:12:16.81
have an alienation
toward the institution.
00:12:16.82\00:12:19.52
But as you point out
what suffering is religion
00:12:19.86\00:12:23.24
itself and the
prerogative of those
00:12:23.25\00:12:25.42
people that hold that
faith and the value of
00:12:25.43\00:12:27.89
marriage, it's
really being literally
00:12:27.90\00:12:29.89
restricted isn't
it? Well, there's a very
00:12:29.90\00:12:33.61
serious implication
for religious freedom,
00:12:33.62\00:12:36.43
because the right,
the fundamental right to
00:12:37.01\00:12:40.02
marry has been
extended to the same sex couples
00:12:40.03\00:12:42.44
at the same time
that religious freedom has
00:12:42.45\00:12:44.72
being diminished.
That's true, we'll be back
00:12:44.73\00:12:46.77
after the break
to continue this very
00:12:46.78\00:12:49.07
interesting discussion
on a topic that's as real
00:12:49.08\00:12:51.91
as what's happening
on your headlines today.
00:12:51.92\00:12:53.76
One-hundred years, a
long time to do anything
00:13:02.54\00:13:06.07
much less publish a
magazine, but this year
00:13:06.53\00:13:09.15
Liberty, the
Seventh-Day Adventist voice of
00:13:09.62\00:13:12.04
religious freedom,
celebrates one hundred
00:13:12.05\00:13:14.54
years of doing what
it does best, collecting,
00:13:14.55\00:13:17.21
analyzing, and
reporting the ebb and flow of
00:13:17.55\00:13:20.50
religious
expression around the world.
00:13:20.51\00:13:22.45
Issue after issue.
Liberty has taken on the tough
00:13:22.78\00:13:26.13
assignments, tracking
down threats to religious
00:13:26.14\00:13:28.64
freedom and exposing the
work of the devil in every
00:13:28.65\00:13:31.41
corner of the globe.
Governmental interference,
00:13:31.42\00:13:33.94
personal attacks,
corporate assaults,
00:13:34.29\00:13:36.39
even religious freedom
issues sequestered within
00:13:36.40\00:13:39.05
church community
itself have been clearly and
00:13:39.06\00:13:41.65
honestly exposed.
Liberty exists for one
00:13:41.66\00:13:45.14
purpose to help
God's people maintain that
00:13:45.15\00:13:48.03
all important
separation of Church and State,
00:13:48.04\00:13:50.85
while recognizing
the dangers inherent in
00:13:50.86\00:13:53.56
such a struggle.
During the past century,
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00:14:22.92\00:14:25.35
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00:14:47.55\00:14:49.99
Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider,
00:14:59.26\00:15:01.03
before the break I was
discussing with my guest
00:15:01.04\00:15:03.68
Alan Reinach some of
the ramifications for
00:15:03.69\00:15:07.37
religious freedom in
the gay marriage issue.
00:15:07.38\00:15:11.69
And of course that
just spins out in many
00:15:11.70\00:15:13.98
directions, but to
bring it back to something
00:15:13.99\00:15:17.07
that's currently
happening as we record this,
00:15:17.08\00:15:18.91
this a hearing before
the Ninth Circuit on the
00:15:18.92\00:15:23.74
constitutionality I
guess of the Proposition 8.
00:15:23.75\00:15:27.61
Well all our arguments
were already heard by the
00:15:27.62\00:15:29.90
Ninth Circuit. Yes,
just a few days ago, I was.
00:15:29.91\00:15:31.84
And whether, you
know California voters in
00:15:31.85\00:15:33.87
2008 approved a
ballet initiative defining
00:15:33.88\00:15:38.10
marriages of man and a woman.
00:15:38.11\00:15:39.32
And a gay federal judge
struck it down and said,
00:15:39.66\00:15:43.45
society has absolutely
no legitimate interest in
00:15:43.79\00:15:48.79
restricting
marriage to a man and a woman
00:15:49.22\00:15:51.22
that that restriction
is the product wholly
00:15:51.23\00:15:54.21
of religious
bigotry. And that's the ruling
00:15:54.22\00:15:56.90
that is now up on appeal
before the Ninth Circuit.
00:15:57.32\00:16:00.07
And we have it as we're
sitting here in the studio
00:16:00.39\00:16:02.72
today, we have not yet
had a decision from the
00:16:02.73\00:16:06.35
Ninth Circuit. And I
heard a lot of the argument
00:16:06.36\00:16:08.38
and on both
sides, they were very
00:16:08.86\00:16:10.23
interesting points put
forward, so it's not an
00:16:10.24\00:16:12.98
absolutely one dimensional
argument, at least as
00:16:12.99\00:16:16.20
far as the legal
prospective, but I think
00:16:16.21\00:16:18.22
that sociologically
there some serious things
00:16:18.67\00:16:20.82
applied. And from the
point of view of where
00:16:20.83\00:16:23.59
we go here on
religious freedom and
00:16:23.60\00:16:26.04
understandings of
marriages of religious
00:16:26.05\00:16:28.13
institution and
have that impacts
00:16:28.14\00:16:30.98
employment in
churches, the right of churches
00:16:30.99\00:16:33.25
to hold a viewpoint.
I mean it's just scary.
00:16:33.26\00:16:35.80
The implication is due
but before we get into the
00:16:35.81\00:16:38.30
details Lincoln, I have
to observe, God's wisdom,
00:16:38.31\00:16:42.95
the authority of
the creator who gave us
00:16:43.31\00:16:45.69
marriage before
sin ever entered in the
00:16:45.70\00:16:48.13
Garden of Eden. The
authority of the creator
00:16:48.14\00:16:51.12
was put on trial
in a federal court in
00:16:51.13\00:16:53.97
San Francisco, and the
Christian world has been
00:16:53.98\00:16:56.65
and the Adventist
world has been largely
00:16:56.66\00:16:59.53
apathetic to this idea
that God Himself is on trial.
00:16:59.54\00:17:04.98
And essentially
His wisdom, His law was
00:17:04.99\00:17:09.84
defeated in the trial
court. I agree with you
00:17:09.85\00:17:10.82
I don't agree with
you. On one level I think
00:17:15.10\00:17:17.47
we shouldn't make what,
even in the Bible it says
00:17:17.48\00:17:22.05
the times of ignorance
God winked, God winked at.
00:17:22.06\00:17:24.71
And I think there
is some even gay judge
00:17:24.72\00:17:28.16
says one thing. I'll
tell you the Judge Walker
00:17:28.17\00:17:30.78
was ignorant, I think
that there's some secular
00:17:30.79\00:17:33.01
ignorance at play
here, yes, because they
00:17:33.02\00:17:34.96
follow through one
thing I'm not sure our whole
00:17:34.97\00:17:37.41
system has seen is
just gonna strike God down.
00:17:37.42\00:17:40.10
It's a telling thing
that people don't recognize
00:17:40.11\00:17:43.62
the greater values and
the representation of God
00:17:43.63\00:17:47.60
is at play, but I'm a
little lowest to cast it
00:17:47.61\00:17:52.26
absolutely that way
but we should recognize
00:17:52.27\00:17:54.73
that a lot it takes
here that the image of God
00:17:54.74\00:17:57.37
is being snuffed
out in our society
00:17:57.38\00:17:59.67
and here in the
very institution.
00:17:59.68\00:18:01.23
And, and, I'm glad
you talk about the image
00:18:01.24\00:18:03.62
of God because if you
go back to the Genesis
00:18:03.63\00:18:07.63
chapter 1 verse 27,
it does not say that you
00:18:07.64\00:18:12.74
as a male are created
in the image of God, yeah,
00:18:12.75\00:18:16.09
it says male and
female created he them in his
00:18:16.10\00:18:20.49
image.Yeah And so as
in what we need to recover
00:18:20.50\00:18:25.24
is the sense that in
the intimacy of marriage
00:18:25.25\00:18:28.86
we get the only
experiential glimpse
00:18:28.87\00:18:32.98
that will, can have
as human beings into what
00:18:32.99\00:18:36.37
it means for the
divinity to be three in one,
00:18:36.38\00:18:40.42
to be Father, Son
and Holy Spirit in a, you
00:18:40.43\00:18:44.52
know close intimate
relationship, the two
00:18:44.53\00:18:48.74
become one flesh
in marriage. And there
00:18:48.75\00:18:51.91
is an intimacy and a,
and a oneness there that is
00:18:51.92\00:18:56.07
an imperfect to be
sure reflection of the unity
00:18:56.08\00:18:59.76
of God head. Now very
unfortunate part of this
00:18:59.77\00:19:02.55
debate not in the
legal hearing, and it came up
00:19:02.56\00:19:05.38
a little bit I must
admit I heard it's a sniping
00:19:05.39\00:19:08.63
attack about well the
state of marriage, you
00:19:08.64\00:19:11.36
know if the
Christians are trying to defend
00:19:11.37\00:19:13.35
that you know so
many end in divorce. But
00:19:13.36\00:19:16.78
that's, that's a rebuke
against man's custody of
00:19:16.79\00:19:20.48
institution, not of the
institution itself. True.
00:19:20.49\00:19:23.23
There are so
many stresses in our
00:19:23.24\00:19:25.40
society and you
know just looking as a
00:19:25.41\00:19:28.36
sociologically,
you know a whole, since
00:19:28.37\00:19:31.45
the industrial
revolution, taking
00:19:31.46\00:19:32.91
people off the land
making them workers in
00:19:32.92\00:19:36.40
factories that break
up their home and now
00:19:36.41\00:19:38.17
women have to work
and so on. There are
00:19:38.18\00:19:40.06
many factors that
have worked to destroy
00:19:40.07\00:19:42.30
the biblical model
of marriage quite apart
00:19:42.31\00:19:45.93
from the gay. Right,
and I want to be clear,
00:19:45.94\00:19:49.36
I'm not suggesting
the same sex marriage is
00:19:49.37\00:19:52.44
you know critical to
the destruction of marriage
00:19:52.45\00:19:55.96
as some have said
and I don't disagree with
00:19:55.97\00:20:00.31
Judge Walker on
that particular point.
00:20:00.32\00:20:03.08
I think there are
much larger issues.
00:20:03.09\00:20:04.75
And the problem for
religious liberty is that
00:20:04.76\00:20:07.61
the fundamental
personal right, whether
00:20:07.62\00:20:11.47
it be simply gay rights
in general or especially
00:20:11.48\00:20:15.54
the right to have
a same sex marriage
00:20:15.55\00:20:18.72
has been elevated
to the same level as
00:20:18.73\00:20:21.26
a race. Right. In some
courts, California being
00:20:21.27\00:20:24.73
among them where
universally religious
00:20:24.74\00:20:28.58
freedom has been
reduced to a very
00:20:28.59\00:20:32.54
trivial kind of
right. Now you're getting to.
00:20:32.55\00:20:34.58
And so what we
have is, we have this
00:20:34.59\00:20:36.42
unleveled playing
field. Now President Obama
00:20:36.43\00:20:39.74
appointed a renowned
law professor Chai Feldblum
00:20:39.75\00:20:43.46
to head up the
Civil Rights Agency of the
00:20:43.47\00:20:46.77
Federal Government,
the Equal Employment
00:20:46.78\00:20:48.83
Opportunity
Commission. She's on a record
00:20:48.84\00:20:50.76
having said and
having published, her view
00:20:50.77\00:20:53.31
is in there is no
potential conflict
00:20:53.32\00:20:57.24
between gay rights
and religious freedom
00:20:57.25\00:20:59.43
that she can imagine
where religious freedom
00:20:59.44\00:21:02.67
ought to win over gay
rights. Yeah. And there
00:21:02.68\00:21:06.06
is no question, yeah,
it's just wrong headed,
00:21:06.07\00:21:07.64
we come into court
with two strikes against us.
00:21:07.65\00:21:11.03
There is an
unleveled legal playing field.
00:21:11.04\00:21:13.38
And the presumption
is that if there is a
00:21:13.39\00:21:15.62
religious
objection of any kind by an
00:21:15.63\00:21:18.01
individual, by a
church to something that
00:21:18.02\00:21:20.90
implicates gay
rights somehow, the church
00:21:20.91\00:21:23.97
and the religion
are going to lose. And
00:21:23.98\00:21:27.51
the implications
are very serious for the
00:21:27.52\00:21:30.07
survival of religious
institutions in America
00:21:30.08\00:21:33.27
as we know it. Yeah,
now you're right there's
00:21:33.28\00:21:35.68
something serious
at play and I'll throw
00:21:35.69\00:21:37.59
a wild card in, but
it's the most effecting
00:21:37.60\00:21:40.45
to me. We're
seeing what's happening in
00:21:40.46\00:21:42.76
this country
and because it's not
00:21:42.77\00:21:43.75
the only country,
Canada is in some ways even
00:21:43.76\00:21:46.37
quite ahead but Abu
Ghraib, when I look back
00:21:46.38\00:21:50.97
at what a
disgraceful moment the western
00:21:50.98\00:21:55.97
nominally Christian
world in the United States
00:21:55.98\00:21:59.17
has come to where
at Abu Ghraib not just
00:21:59.18\00:22:02.17
tortured was
visited upon the detainees
00:22:02.18\00:22:04.39
but aberrant,
psychosexual behavior
00:22:04.40\00:22:12.69
is visited on them
and President Bush said,
00:22:12.70\00:22:16.21
this is not us unfortunately
00:22:16.22\00:22:18.42
this is us. And this
type of motion I think
00:22:18.43\00:22:23.75
institutionalizes in
our very law or something
00:22:23.76\00:22:26.70
that I think its fine
to respect the human being.
00:22:26.71\00:22:31.33
But its behavior
that's biblically and socially
00:22:31.34\00:22:35.62
and in every other
country most that I can
00:22:35.63\00:22:37.43
think of aberrant
other than Europe which
00:22:37.44\00:22:39.73
is going along with
it a bit. And yeah we
00:22:39.74\00:22:44.04
need to speak out
against it where I have
00:22:44.05\00:22:45.65
the problem? At a
point where the society
00:22:45.66\00:22:48.68
is so out of harmony
with the nature of reality
00:22:49.56\00:22:53.91
and that's the way I
describe it. God's law
00:22:53.92\00:22:57.58
to establish
marriage was not arbitrary,
00:22:57.59\00:23:00.83
it's biology, it's
nature and when we become so
00:23:00.84\00:23:05.76
contrary to human
nature and biology
00:23:05.77\00:23:09.23
in reality as to
approve same sex marriage we
00:23:09.24\00:23:12.86
have to be on the
borders of eternity.
00:23:12.87\00:23:15.85
It has to be close,
absolutely, judgment
00:23:15.86\00:23:18.93
day for the
civilization. Of course now you
00:23:18.94\00:23:21.89
know just looking at
history I can't find in,
00:23:21.90\00:23:23.91
I've never been never
be able to find evidence
00:23:23.92\00:23:25.59
that in the early
Christian church which
00:23:25.60\00:23:28.22
was extend there at the
time of the Roman Empire
00:23:28.23\00:23:30.23
and the remainders
of the Greek Empire,
00:23:30.24\00:23:34.23
I mean it had gone
but Greece was still
00:23:34.24\00:23:35.87
very much alive and
we know that there was
00:23:35.88\00:23:37.84
a severe homosexuality.
But there is no evidence
00:23:40.54\00:23:43.17
that early Christianity
harassed the homosexual
00:23:43.18\00:23:46.96
life style. It was
just as Paul said, some of
00:23:46.97\00:23:49.49
these you once were,
right, Christians came
00:23:49.50\00:23:52.19
out that. And other
than even now, a few
00:23:52.20\00:23:56.45
misguided
Christian activist you know
00:23:56.46\00:23:58.70
chanting things that
gay rallies and that,
00:23:58.71\00:24:01.45
there's no really
evidence of Christians trying
00:24:01.46\00:24:04.96
to victimize
gays in my view. What
00:24:04.97\00:24:08.65
has happened is, is
this new right has now being
00:24:08.66\00:24:11.69
turned against religious
practice and we need to
00:24:11.70\00:24:14.67
see this as a new
model and as you say
00:24:14.68\00:24:18.13
EOC signaling there
that Christianity or
00:24:18.14\00:24:21.51
religion? It's not
just Christianity. Religious
00:24:21.52\00:24:24.01
rights may not be
seen as a primary right.
00:24:24.02\00:24:26.26
Look we've already
seen two Christians
00:24:26.27\00:24:29.68
institutions,
Catholic institutions closed
00:24:29.69\00:24:33.14
down because from a
regulatory standpoint
00:24:33.15\00:24:36.77
there were
adoption agencies in San
00:24:36.78\00:24:38.63
Francisco and
Boston that were required
00:24:38.64\00:24:41.19
to offer services
to same sex couples and
00:24:41.20\00:24:44.53
they could not do
that on conscience grounds
00:24:44.54\00:24:46.76
and their
conscience rights were not
00:24:46.77\00:24:49.07
respected. And we
can expect in wide range
00:24:49.08\00:24:52.56
of places, graduate
programs in physiology
00:24:52.57\00:24:55.94
and social work will
be shut down will not
00:24:55.95\00:24:58.80
accredited if they
don't comply with the gay
00:24:58.81\00:25:03.54
agenda. Do you
think as is hinted at in
00:25:03.55\00:25:06.36
Canada, the ministers of
religion will be required
00:25:06.37\00:25:09.49
on paying of losing
their right to perform any
00:25:09.50\00:25:11.92
marriage, required to
perform such marriages.
00:25:11.93\00:25:14.44
I actually think. You
see that Alan. I think
00:25:14.45\00:25:16.88
that's a long short
in America, there are
00:25:16.89\00:25:19.54
those who I respect who
fear that realistically,
00:25:19.55\00:25:22.77
I think that's the
end of a long course.
00:25:22.78\00:25:26.90
And I frankly don't
know that the pendulum
00:25:26.91\00:25:29.33
gonna keep swinging
in that direction before
00:25:29.34\00:25:31.48
it swings back.
Because I believe this whole
00:25:31.49\00:25:33.97
thing is just
begging for overreaction back
00:25:33.98\00:25:38.40
the other way, which
will be sociologically
00:25:38.41\00:25:41.57
very bad. So all we
could do in discussing
00:25:41.58\00:25:43.57
what the risks are to
the church is to say if
00:25:43.58\00:25:46.99
these legal
principles are allowed to work
00:25:47.00\00:25:50.68
themselves through
what are the likely result?
00:25:50.69\00:25:53.82
For example there
was Amathus Camp meeting
00:25:54.89\00:25:57.32
property, beautiful
place on the Jersey shore,
00:25:57.33\00:26:00.76
lost the first
round battle for its tax
00:26:00.77\00:26:03.18
exempt status from
real property taxes not
00:26:03.19\00:26:06.25
because of the same
sex marriage but a civil
00:26:06.26\00:26:08.82
union. Yeah, the
ramifications of this
00:26:08.83\00:26:11.94
spread out in all
sorts of church and religious
00:26:11.95\00:26:14.39
behavior don't
they? The ramifications
00:26:14.40\00:26:16.50
are the serious threat
for the future survival
00:26:16.51\00:26:19.77
of the
religious institutions, if
00:26:19.78\00:26:22.23
Christianity is
regarded as discrimination and
00:26:22.24\00:26:25.58
our rights to be
Christians into half
00:26:25.59\00:26:27.85
Christian
institutions subordinated to
00:26:27.86\00:26:30.35
gay rights then if we
are not willing to have
00:26:30.36\00:26:33.50
gays represents
us school teachers,
00:26:33.51\00:26:35.92
as Pastors, etc, we're
not going to be allowed
00:26:35.93\00:26:39.92
to have our institutions,
it's that simple, we
00:26:39.93\00:26:42.96
can't exist if
we're discriminatory.
00:26:42.97\00:26:45.05
It's very significant
to me that at the beginning
00:26:47.34\00:26:49.53
of the Christ's
Ministry the first miracle that
00:26:49.54\00:26:52.59
He performed was
at the marriage feast
00:26:52.60\00:26:54.89
in Cana. Marriage back
then was both societally
00:26:54.90\00:26:59.35
approved and encouraged
and biblically required,
00:26:59.36\00:27:03.07
however 2000 years
later many, many things have
00:27:03.87\00:27:08.10
changed and I
cannot see it as anything
00:27:08.11\00:27:11.67
but the sign of
deteriorating social
00:27:11.68\00:27:14.52
norms, as well as the
disregard for religious
00:27:14.53\00:27:18.08
requirements that
we are having some of
00:27:18.09\00:27:20.56
the arguments that
we have over not just
00:27:20.57\00:27:23.41
marriage but gay
marriage. Of course we
00:27:23.42\00:27:26.76
required to be charitable toward
00:27:26.77\00:27:28.43
people, of course we
are required with the
00:27:28.44\00:27:30.63
separation of the
church and state, to live our
00:27:30.64\00:27:33.62
lives and to, in the
spiritual fulfillment of
00:27:33.63\00:27:39.26
what God requires
and to leave the state
00:27:39.27\00:27:42.34
to its own requirement.
But surely we cannot
00:27:42.35\00:27:45.81
be indifferent to
the state going in the
00:27:45.82\00:27:48.38
direction that could
end dangerous for all
00:27:48.39\00:27:52.40
concerned. It's up to
Christians to object to
00:27:52.41\00:27:56.14
this and yet live in
charity with all of our
00:27:56.15\00:27:58.94
fellowmen with
whatever sexual persuasion.
00:27:58.95\00:28:01.68
This is Lincoln
Steed for Liberty Insider.
00:28:02.82\00:28:05.42