Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program bringing you
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up to date news,
views, discussion
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and opinion on
religious liberty concerns
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all around the world and in the
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United States particularly.
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My name is
Lincoln Steed, Editor of
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Liberty Magazine. And
my guest on the program
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is Attorney Alan
Reinach, welcome Alan.
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Thanks glad to
be with you Lincoln.
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Great to have you
back. There's many things
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that we could talk
about today, but I wanna start
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with a topic that in
some ways takes us back
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to the future,
George Bush some years ago,
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you remember he was President
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of the Untied States.
Do I have to remember?
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Went on forever, but
he did something from
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religious liberty point of view
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that was
shocking, still shocks me,
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started the so
called Faith-Based
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Initiative FBI,
where monies that,
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had been
previously going to welfare
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type programs
would be funneled through
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church non-profit
programs. And initially
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they said they would
not be used for religious
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proselytizing or faith programs,
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but later on it
came out that yes
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that was actually
okay. That continued thorough
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his presidency
during the election of 2008
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President Obama
now, now President Obama
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actually said that
he would continue it,
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he would do more of the same,
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but, he would
apply stringent federal
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policies against
non-discrimination,
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correct. That has not happened
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two years later. Well
okay, so where are we,
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the program is as
flawed as it ever was,
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but with its flaws it
could only exists really
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while the
discrimination policies
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would not apply,
so where are we today?
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Should we apply
the discrimination,
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or should we
discontinue the program?
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Okay, well there's
many issues raised by
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the Faith-Based
Initiative. I'm not sure
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that I entirely share
your suspicion that the
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program is
completely flawed entirely.
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Well not about
flawed, but it was at the time
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I believe it was a
very calculated conscious
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step across what
we see again in Lords
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how to define the line.
But, it was clearly step
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big enough to
cross what was accepted
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as a line
between church and state.
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There is a sound
concept and there is
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an unsound concept.
How Bush applied it was
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clearly unsound
because what he would do is
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permit government
funds, our tax dollars
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to be used by not just
separately incorporated
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religious charities,
but by churches themselves
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and in activities that clearly
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involve religion, proselytizing,
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you know worship
etcetera, where there
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really was no
boundary in terms of church
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and state between the
use of public funds for
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religious
activities. What President Obama
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has done is to renew the program
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but to clarify by
his executive order that
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we do respect the establishment
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clause
limitations, that public funds
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cannot be used
for any proselytizing
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for any overtly
religious activities
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but only for
secular kinds of services
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that the
government would otherwise
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want to provide services for.
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But what you are
basing that statement?
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Well on the basis
of the executive order
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that he issued
at the end of 2010.
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Well, okay
maybe I haven't caught
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the very latest, but I
know just the other day
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I've read an article saying that
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he is yet to
implement the promised
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anti-discrimination
requirements.
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Okay the anti-discrimination
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issues is a very
contentious issue,
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and frankly
Seventh-day Adventists have
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take a position
that is different from
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where the Liberals
are pushing this thing.
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The Liberals
want to insist that if
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You're a religious
charity, you cannot hire people
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of your own faith.
We all agree that you
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can't discriminate
in providing services.
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If you're running a
soup kitchen, right,
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you can't ask somebody you know
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are you a Christian,
will you pray with me?
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And if you don't we're
not gonna give you soup.
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No, you have to
give soup to everybody
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regardless of
their religious beliefs
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or lack there off,
you're a there to serve
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the general public. The
real issue is if you're a
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religious charity,
are you entitled to hire
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people of our own faith
to carry out the mission
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of that charity
consistent with your
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religious values
or do you have to hire
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anybody who might
be qualified from a
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secular standpoint.
I know what you mean,
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but I need to
rephrase it, it seems to me
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The not issue is whether,
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the issue is not
narrowly whether as a
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religious charity you
can carry it out without
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being held non
discrimination policies,
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it's whether as a charity taking
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government money,
right. We would have to insist
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that the government
of the church charity
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should always be
free of government control
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as long as it's
not acting in a grossly
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illegal way, you know
against the public good
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and its true to its
face, okay but the issue
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here is they're
taking the money.
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Okay, let's be very
clear Lincoln. We know
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this discussion
with schools for example
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you takes state money
the government has felt
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need to order how you
dispose of that money.
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Okay lets be very
clear, for decades
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we have a system
in the United States,
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Roman Catholics
have Catholic charities,
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the Lutherans
have their program,
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there are
various Jewish programs,
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Seventh-day Adventist
have what we now call,
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ADRA Adventist
Development and Relief.
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All of us well some
more than others ADRA
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certainly I can speak from a
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Seventh-day Adventist context,
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we hire
Seventh-day Adventists because
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we regard the
otherwise secular activities of
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ADRA as an expression
of our religious faith.
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Okay, world vision
is a Non-Denominational
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Christian Organization
that does all kinds of
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relief work with children
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etcetera overseas.
Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals
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recently held that
they are sufficiently
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religious that they
can require their employees
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to a spouse a Christian
religion. It seems to me
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that you're
mixing a couple of things
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together, like I
know ADRA and perhaps
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some of these
other organizations
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while they
maintain by hiring certain
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Adventist Christian context,
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they are not allowed to
promote their viewpoint.
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Okay, now we're
talking about discrimination
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or proselytizing,
where we are agreeing
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I think is that it's
inappropriate to preach
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the gospel funded by the state,
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that's pretty basic
to the American system
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of church state
relations you know,
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we don't get government funding
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to preach the gospel.
And I'm quite sure where
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this is going out on television,
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and so it might
be a shock to people,
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but I'm quite sure that
many of the constituents
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of these church
based programs including
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even our own have the assumption
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that that's
exactly what they are doing
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with the government
money they're promoting
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religious
viewpoint. There is no question
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that there have
been some abuses,
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one of the more difficult areas.
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Well no I mean it
shouldn't be an abuse
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if it's under the ground rules.
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But, the
expectation of the religious
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constituency for
their organization
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that is taking
this government money
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is precisely
that it is advancing
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their religious
viewpoint. They would be
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quite shocked to be
told that the organization
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has accepted the ground rules,
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yes they might just
hire only their own people,
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but they are not
actively promoting
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their religious
viewpoint, cannot.
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Well but that is the
Constitutional form oh yes
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you and I know that very well.
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That we are cooperating you know
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there is room for
religion and state to
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cooperate on
things that we agree on.
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For example our
whole healthcare system
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is largely dependent
now on government funding,
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government programs
like Medicaid and Medicare,
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Medi-Cal in California state
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funding programs. Well,
we regard our healthcare
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as the healing
ministry of Jesus Christ.
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And we are going to
engage in healthcare,
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and if the government
chooses to fund it to us
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it's still a religious mission.
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It's the expression
of the love of Christ
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in caring for
people. Are we gonna stop
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trying to heal people,
because if government's
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is going to be
providing funds. In my point is
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a number of us
working in religious liberty
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know this message
goes back a long way,
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way before this
became the presently
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entangled state,
it was recommended
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by those working
with church state issues
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that it was best not
to take the state money,
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because the net
affect is that it will
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tend to mute progressively mute
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what you're
consciously aiming at, right.
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It's not that
we're in an unacceptable
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situation, because
yes as a Christian you're
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doing an active
charity but, you basically
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have progressively muted what
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you would otherwise have done.
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The golden rules still applies.
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He who's got the gold
makes the rules, sure,
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thank you for
cutting me; the other imagery
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is that you know the
strings that strangle.
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You know there are
strings attached to
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government funds and they do
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tend to strangle.
What becomes especially
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problematic is
when the priorities of a
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religious
organization are distorted
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because of the institutions.
00:10:30.16\00:10:33.24
For example when healthcare
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and their
dependency on government funds
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starts to determine
how the denominations
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as a whole is
going to set its policy
00:10:41.89\00:10:45.27
in practice, that can be a very
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disturbing proposition.
Yeah of course we agree
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on this, so let's
bring it up to date,
00:10:51.75\00:10:53.93
then where do you
think with the state of
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objectives in this
recent executive order
00:10:57.08\00:11:00.91
of President
Obama, where are we going
00:11:00.92\00:11:02.48
with this
Faith-Based Initiative. Okay
00:11:02.49\00:11:04.16
the battle, the
real battle time change
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even, the battle
Lincoln is very simple,
00:11:06.30\00:11:08.67
the Liberals want to destroy
00:11:08.68\00:11:10.89
religious charities
by requiring them to
00:11:10.90\00:11:14.11
diminish their
religious character by
00:11:14.12\00:11:16.90
hiring people,
requiring them to hire people
00:11:16.91\00:11:19.69
of any faith or
no faith. And if that
00:11:19.70\00:11:22.27
happens there is
no such thing as a
00:11:22.28\00:11:24.46
religious
charity anymore. We might
00:11:24.47\00:11:26.39
as well shut down or simply not
00:11:26.40\00:11:28.49
take any government
fund. And they want and
00:11:28.50\00:11:29.81
I better qualify
they want that applied
00:11:29.82\00:11:33.48
regardless of
whether or not charity
00:11:33.49\00:11:35.06
is taking government money?
00:11:35.07\00:11:36.13
Well that's true too
but the government money
00:11:36.14\00:11:38.74
is the wedge. When they take the
00:11:38.75\00:11:40.66
government money the argument
00:11:40.67\00:11:41.96
has greater force.
Right, and so there is a
00:11:41.97\00:11:44.32
big misunderstanding
when Catholic charity
00:11:44.33\00:11:47.26
shut down its adoption agencies,
00:11:47.27\00:11:49.64
well its Catholic charities
00:11:49.65\00:11:51.89
I think in Boston,
but the church also had
00:11:51.90\00:11:54.67
adoption agency in San Francisco
00:11:54.68\00:11:56.98
that they shut
down. It had nothing to do
00:11:56.99\00:11:59.17
with government
money, it had to do
00:11:59.18\00:12:01.41
with regulation
that applied they were
00:12:01.42\00:12:03.72
required to
provide services to same
00:12:03.73\00:12:06.36
sex couples to
adopt out children
00:12:06.37\00:12:09.00
which they were consciously
00:12:09.01\00:12:11.17
unwilling to do. And
there was no exception
00:12:11.18\00:12:14.78
made for them
but it had nothing do
00:12:14.79\00:12:17.00
with whether they
were publicly funded
00:12:17.01\00:12:20.19
or not it was a
simple regulatory issue.
00:12:20.20\00:12:22.73
Yes, so there
is a move generally
00:12:22.74\00:12:25.18
but the Faith-Based
Initiative is sort of
00:12:25.19\00:12:27.29
given an angle
for those that had
00:12:27.30\00:12:29.75
this opinion
describe with to restrict.
00:12:29.76\00:12:32.08
Right, it's essentially
the secular attack on
00:12:32.09\00:12:34.64
religious institutions
and trying to minimize
00:12:34.65\00:12:37.67
and marginalize the presence
00:12:37.68\00:12:39.27
and impact of
the faith community
00:12:39.28\00:12:41.36
within the society as a whole.
00:12:41.37\00:12:43.40
This is definitely problematic;
00:12:43.41\00:12:44.41
we need to discuss this more.
00:12:44.42\00:12:45.63
We will be back
after the break to continue
00:12:45.64\00:12:47.51
our discussion of
the public funding issue
00:12:47.52\00:12:50.18
and Faith-Based Initiatives.
00:12:50.19\00:12:51.72
One-hundred years, a
long time to do anything
00:13:01.57\00:13:05.34
much less publish a magazine,
00:13:05.35\00:13:07.26
but this year
Liberty, the Seventh-Day
00:13:07.27\00:13:10.35
Adventist voice
of religious freedom,
00:13:10.36\00:13:12.03
celebrates one
hundred years of doing
00:13:12.04\00:13:14.65
what it does best,
collecting, analyzing,
00:13:14.66\00:13:17.41
and reporting
the ebb and flow of
00:13:17.42\00:13:19.62
religious
expression around the world.
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00:13:49.53\00:13:51.93
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00:14:38.78\00:14:40.32
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00:14:40.33\00:14:44.34
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00:14:46.72\00:14:49.30
Welcome back to
our discussion of
00:14:57.90\00:14:59.97
public funding for
some church based programs.
00:14:59.98\00:15:03.75
We spoke about before break with
00:15:03.76\00:15:05.78
Attorney Alan
Reinach We're talking about
00:15:05.79\00:15:07.62
Faith-Based
Initiative under President Bush
00:15:07.63\00:15:10.23
and now under President Obama,
00:15:10.24\00:15:11.36
there is something
in Arizona that's really
00:15:11.37\00:15:14.31
based on this
explain this to our viewers.
00:15:14.32\00:15:18.58
Well the Supreme
Court heard oral arguments
00:15:18.59\00:15:21.09
concerning a tax
credit program in Arizona
00:15:21.10\00:15:25.87
for private and
religious schools.
00:15:25.88\00:15:29.25
The way the
program works essentially,
00:15:29.26\00:15:32.65
individuals can make donations
00:15:33.57\00:15:36.55
I think it's up a $1000 now,
00:15:36.56\00:15:38.50
started out
originally it was $500 you make
00:15:38.51\00:15:42.02
the donation to
a like a charitable
00:15:42.03\00:15:45.94
scholarship fund and
you cannot donate for
00:15:45.95\00:15:50.91
your own kids tuition,
but you can for some other
00:15:50.92\00:15:55.11
child's tuition,
and then you would get,
00:15:55.12\00:15:58.23
you would be eligible
to get a tax credit off
00:15:58.24\00:16:01.22
of your state tax
bill for the amount
00:16:01.23\00:16:04.01
that you donate up to a $1000.
00:16:04.02\00:16:06.28
How would this
differ from giving money
00:16:06.29\00:16:09.73
directly to a
church which will be
00:16:09.74\00:16:11.18
tax deductible
right to a non profit
00:16:11.19\00:16:12.81
or to a church.
Well, okay that's a
00:16:12.82\00:16:15.34
tax deduction which reduces
00:16:15.35\00:16:17.45
your taxable income,
this is a tax credit,
00:16:17.46\00:16:20.83
straight off your tax.
So, exactly if owe $5000
00:16:20.84\00:16:24.50
in state income taxes
and you give a 1000 to
00:16:24.51\00:16:28.12
the scholarship
fund you only owe $4000.
00:16:28.13\00:16:33.21
Now the question
which I think Scalia
00:16:33.22\00:16:36.57
was the one who
pointed out in oral argument
00:16:36.58\00:16:39.70
is under what sort
of myth does your giving
00:16:39.71\00:16:46.68
your money to a
scholarship fund somehow
00:16:46.69\00:16:51.06
translate into the
state has given the funds
00:16:51.07\00:16:55.79
to the religious
school. It's you who are giving
00:16:55.80\00:17:00.55
your money and
then the State's giving
00:17:00.56\00:17:03.45
you a credit,
but it's far removed
00:17:03.46\00:17:06.42
you now the
Supreme Court approved
00:17:06.43\00:17:08.60
vouchers years ago.
Which we for many years
00:17:08.61\00:17:11.84
we apposed. Well I filed briefs,
00:17:11.85\00:17:14.56
I filed a brief in
the US Supreme Court,
00:17:14.57\00:17:17.07
we apposed tuition vouchers,
00:17:17.08\00:17:19.37
and still believe the
vouchers are a bad plan
00:17:19.38\00:17:23.97
because in a
voucher system the state
00:17:23.98\00:17:27.47
you may choose to
send your kid to a private
00:17:27.48\00:17:30.48
to a religious
school, so you get a voucher,
00:17:30.49\00:17:33.97
lets say you get a
$1000 voucher from the state.
00:17:33.98\00:17:37.01
You give this voucher
to the school the state
00:17:37.02\00:17:42.34
gives the money
directly to the school.
00:17:42.35\00:17:44.81
The state doesn't
give you the money,
00:17:44.82\00:17:46.26
the state gives the
money to the school.
00:17:46.27\00:17:48.14
And before they give
the money to the school
00:17:48.15\00:17:50.37
the state has to
in some sense approve
00:17:50.38\00:17:53.89
that the school is
within the you know
00:17:53.90\00:17:57.12
meet certain
criteria one of which is
00:17:57.13\00:18:00.19
non-discrimination
criteria in most cases,
00:18:00.20\00:18:03.63
the school if it were
a Seventh-day Adventist
00:18:03.64\00:18:06.38
school that only
hired Seventh-day Adventist
00:18:06.39\00:18:08.80
teachers it could be excluded
00:18:08.81\00:18:10.95
from the program
should be in most cases.
00:18:10.96\00:18:14.16
But, you would lose the right
00:18:14.17\00:18:16.52
and whether you
lose the right at
00:18:16.53\00:18:18.77
the when the programs
starts or down the road,
00:18:18.78\00:18:21.94
even worse down
the road, you know
00:18:21.95\00:18:24.81
they are going to be
strings that strangle
00:18:24.82\00:18:28.59
and the schools
will lose their freedom
00:18:28.60\00:18:31.44
if they are taking
these government funds.
00:18:31.45\00:18:33.44
So, we are very adamantly,
00:18:33.45\00:18:35.21
continue to be
adamantly apposed to
00:18:35.22\00:18:37.44
voucher programs
as apposing the threat
00:18:37.45\00:18:39.82
to the survival
of Christian schools.
00:18:39.83\00:18:41.59
And we connected
back to our prior
00:18:41.60\00:18:43.33
discussion on
Faith-Based Initiative?
00:18:43.34\00:18:45.12
I remember early on
when it was being challenged
00:18:45.13\00:18:48.68
under the Bush administration,
00:18:48.69\00:18:50.24
a prominent Christian
editor who was in favor
00:18:51.00\00:18:54.50
of this wrote in his magazine,
00:18:54.51\00:18:56.55
because he was
anxious for it to get through
00:18:56.56\00:18:58.35
and he said, it may
necessary to voucherize,
00:18:58.36\00:19:00.60
voucherize the
program Faith-Based Initiative
00:19:00.61\00:19:03.02
which told me that they see it,
00:19:03.03\00:19:05.24
the whole voucher
things as a wedge way to get
00:19:05.25\00:19:08.08
the foot in the door to direct
00:19:08.09\00:19:09.85
government funding,
so you're right vouchers
00:19:09.86\00:19:12.28
are problematic
because in essence
00:19:12.29\00:19:15.32
the government will see
that is they are funding
00:19:15.33\00:19:18.19
that institution
therefore they need
00:19:18.20\00:19:20.25
some control.
Look there is I think
00:19:20.26\00:19:23.82
a healthy debate in our society,
00:19:23.83\00:19:25.29
and if I give you
know the Tea Party movement
00:19:25.30\00:19:28.16
any credit at all. It
is that we need a debate
00:19:28.17\00:19:31.35
about the proper
scope of government.
00:19:31.36\00:19:33.79
Right now
government funds everything
00:19:33.80\00:19:36.59
and with their
funding means control
00:19:36.60\00:19:39.24
and really that
lessens freedom in our society.
00:19:39.25\00:19:44.01
It doesn't increase freedom;
00:19:44.02\00:19:45.49
we need to build up
the private sector as
00:19:45.50\00:19:48.18
against the public
sector in many respects.
00:19:48.19\00:19:51.02
And so the idea that
the religious community
00:19:51.03\00:19:53.88
wants more public
funding, wants more
00:19:53.89\00:19:57.68
public control of the
religious sector is what it
00:19:57.69\00:20:01.34
amounts to is
really a troublesome.
00:20:01.35\00:20:04.32
And I think it's
troublesome for reason
00:20:04.33\00:20:06.41
most people don't think about,
00:20:06.42\00:20:08.26
to me it tells that
the religions don't want
00:20:08.27\00:20:11.61
that funding it become
etiologically innovated.
00:20:11.62\00:20:14.89
Well, Ben Franklin
going back to, right you know
00:20:16.52\00:20:20.02
our founding
fathers and I don't have
00:20:20.03\00:20:23.52
the perfect quote,
but he said that you know
00:20:23.53\00:20:26.95
if a church has to
generate it to the point
00:20:26.96\00:20:30.64
where it needs to
rely on government funds
00:20:30.65\00:20:32.92
it's a sign that
it's a bad religion,
00:20:32.93\00:20:35.36
right it's a bad
one. There is no question
00:20:35.37\00:20:38.09
on that, there
is no question that
00:20:38.10\00:20:39.98
They're taking the
government money to
00:20:39.99\00:20:41.31
debilitate your
commitment and they've
00:20:41.32\00:20:44.90
shown that with a
Faith-Based Initiative
00:20:44.91\00:20:46.82
there was a
certain level of a church
00:20:46.83\00:20:49.79
charitable giving
through their programs
00:20:49.80\00:20:51.47
which started there
was certain amount of money
00:20:51.48\00:20:54.87
is going through the
Federal Welfare programs
00:20:54.88\00:20:57.19
and they took a
set amount that they
00:20:57.20\00:20:59.81
designated to go
through Faith-Based Initiative.
00:20:59.82\00:21:02.19
And sold it to
the constituency that
00:21:02.20\00:21:05.17
it would save money
and they obviously knew
00:21:05.18\00:21:07.09
what they are up
to because after a
00:21:07.10\00:21:09.02
couple of years it
was shown that with
00:21:09.03\00:21:11.27
the government
funding through the churches
00:21:11.28\00:21:13.33
the members
contributions to those
00:21:13.34\00:21:15.89
programs dropped significantly,
00:21:15.90\00:21:17.53
of course. The
commitment of the churches
00:21:17.54\00:21:19.01
to their charitable programs
00:21:19.02\00:21:20.91
actually dropped. And
we know from our experience
00:21:20.92\00:21:24.87
in the church
for example you can
00:21:24.88\00:21:26.35
have a church
that is quite lethargic
00:21:26.36\00:21:29.25
spiritually, do
a building project,
00:21:29.26\00:21:31.97
have to raise a
half-a-million dollars,
00:21:31.98\00:21:34.04
a million dollars
which seems astronomical
00:21:34.05\00:21:36.75
for the church and it brings
00:21:36.76\00:21:38.50
spiritual revival.
The process of stretching
00:21:38.51\00:21:42.52
yourself of making
these commitments of putting
00:21:42.53\00:21:45.17
the Lord to the test
and having to give you know
00:21:45.18\00:21:48.15
what is precious to
you. It really renews
00:21:48.16\00:21:51.13
your spiritual
life, that's the genius
00:21:51.14\00:21:53.53
of the separation
of church and state in
00:21:53.54\00:21:56.01
America is that voluntarism is
00:21:56.02\00:21:58.62
good for religion.
Absolutely, so what
00:21:58.63\00:22:01.14
We're really talking
about from the government
00:22:01.15\00:22:02.74
perspective
it's all about money.
00:22:02.75\00:22:04.14
But, in a discussion of religion
00:22:04.15\00:22:07.40
and whether or not
it's gonna be helped or hurt
00:22:07.41\00:22:09.08
or whatever. This
is really a matter of a
00:22:09.09\00:22:11.58
commitment to the
faith, not a matter of means,
00:22:11.59\00:22:13.83
the means is never a
problem to a faith group
00:22:13.84\00:22:17.21
that believe in
what they're doing,
00:22:17.22\00:22:18.67
they find it
they don't need to go
00:22:18.68\00:22:20.21
look to the
government. Well, do we still
00:22:20.22\00:22:23.07
believe the Bible
when it says the Lord owns
00:22:23.08\00:22:25.61
a cattle on a thousand hills,
00:22:25.62\00:22:27.14
and the gold and silver is his,
00:22:27.15\00:22:28.70
do we still believe
that God is able to provide
00:22:28.71\00:22:31.20
for his work. Having
said that we've lived
00:22:31.21\00:22:34.95
with this tax
credit program in Arizona
00:22:34.96\00:22:37.34
for many years now,
it's been in existence,
00:22:37.35\00:22:40.14
I wanna say for about a decade.
00:22:40.15\00:22:41.83
When it first came in
as someone who believes
00:22:41.84\00:22:45.92
in church state separation,
00:22:45.93\00:22:47.26
I was quite
skeptical, I've seen it working
00:22:47.27\00:22:50.63
it works very well
because it is a program
00:22:50.64\00:22:54.84
of private
donation. It does not involve
00:22:54.85\00:22:58.29
the state
regulating the schools.
00:22:58.30\00:23:00.74
The state really has
no business coming in
00:23:00.75\00:23:03.80
and regulating
the schools because
00:23:03.81\00:23:06.36
of the way the program works
00:23:06.37\00:23:07.85
and I've been
surprised you know the state,
00:23:07.86\00:23:10.99
the secular
bureaucrats have consistently
00:23:11.00\00:23:16.12
found that the
program saves the sate money,
00:23:16.13\00:23:20.43
because the cost of
the tax credits as compared
00:23:20.44\00:23:25.18
to the reduced costs
of more kids being in
00:23:25.19\00:23:29.71
private school
versus public schools,
00:23:29.72\00:23:32.11
it saves the state's
money. So, from a purely
00:23:32.12\00:23:35.18
pragmatic secular standpoint
00:23:35.19\00:23:37.11
it's a good policy
in terms of funding
00:23:37.12\00:23:39.99
public education
and in from the church
00:23:40.00\00:23:42.45
standpoint it's
been very beneficial
00:23:42.46\00:23:45.04
to the finances of
our religious schools
00:23:45.05\00:23:47.44
without having the
same kind of regulations
00:23:47.45\00:23:50.87
and risk of these strings that
00:23:50.88\00:23:53.81
the voucher program
carries. So, why is it
00:23:53.82\00:23:55.57
suddenly under attack then?
00:23:55.58\00:23:56.77
Well look the secular
left has been attacking
00:23:56.78\00:24:00.72
from the beginning
Americans United for
00:24:00.73\00:24:02.70
separation of church
and state, filed around
00:24:02.71\00:24:04.92
a lawsuits in the Arizona courts
00:24:04.93\00:24:07.29
they lost years ago.
Now it's going up under
00:24:07.30\00:24:12.05
attack in Federal
court, the Liberals don't want,
00:24:12.06\00:24:16.08
they want an
absolute separation of church
00:24:16.09\00:24:18.80
and state that
really marginalizes
00:24:18.81\00:24:21.20
religion in
American public life.
00:24:21.21\00:24:23.21
And this is the
irony of separation
00:24:23.22\00:24:27.74
isn't it church
and state separation.
00:24:27.75\00:24:28.92
Some of it's
necessary and required by
00:24:28.93\00:24:31.32
the constitution
but too vigorously done,
00:24:31.33\00:24:33.26
it becomes sort of vendetta
00:24:33.27\00:24:35.02
against faith,
correct. And we are in danger of
00:24:35.03\00:24:38.72
going that far. My
view is not the religion
00:24:38.73\00:24:41.56
is in trouble, but
in going too far I think
00:24:41.57\00:24:44.59
the secular has
risked a huge backlash
00:24:44.60\00:24:47.04
from an
innately, if not spiritual
00:24:47.05\00:24:49.79
and religiously
inclined community,
00:24:49.80\00:24:51.73
and in the backlash
we may find that we go
00:24:51.74\00:24:54.90
on absolutely the wrong way.
00:24:54.91\00:24:56.49
We have warned
our friends you know
00:24:56.50\00:24:58.51
we too you know it
may come as a surprise
00:24:58.52\00:25:00.73
for our listeners,
but we actually do talk
00:25:00.74\00:25:03.03
with folks in
the ACLU and they're
00:25:03.04\00:25:06.26
nice people, we
enjoy their company,
00:25:06.27\00:25:08.77
and we do have
these discussions from
00:25:08.78\00:25:10.92
time to time that
by pursuing such an
00:25:10.93\00:25:14.13
aggressive
secular agenda they run
00:25:14.14\00:25:16.67
the risk of really losing out
00:25:16.68\00:25:19.25
because of the
backlash. And that they really
00:25:19.26\00:25:22.03
should think twice
before some of the sort
00:25:22.04\00:25:25.95
of the hostile
acts that they take
00:25:25.96\00:25:27.76
against religion.
You know they'll hear us
00:25:27.77\00:25:30.86
we haven't change their plans
00:25:30.87\00:25:33.05
about anything, but
at least we have the
00:25:33.06\00:25:35.43
conversation from time to time.
00:25:35.44\00:25:37.24
Sure and not all of
the ACLU or the Americans
00:25:37.25\00:25:40.02
United for separation of church
00:25:40.03\00:25:42.44
and state do is
wrong. But, in certain areas
00:25:42.45\00:25:45.53
and perhaps their
overall emphasis more
00:25:45.54\00:25:47.96
and more they are
aiding the wrong tendency.
00:25:47.97\00:25:51.11
Well the problem is
that there is this extreme
00:25:51.12\00:25:55.61
view of separation of church
00:25:55.62\00:25:57.36
and state, that
has become very hostile
00:25:57.37\00:25:59.81
to Christian
values, to religious values,
00:25:59.82\00:26:02.83
and so Christian
America you know religious
00:26:02.84\00:26:06.47
right has reacted against that
00:26:06.48\00:26:08.48
and is in danger of
throwing out the baby
00:26:08.49\00:26:10.54
with the bath
water and in reality
00:26:10.55\00:26:13.98
there is a healthy
separation of church
00:26:13.99\00:26:16.05
and state that
we need to recover.
00:26:16.06\00:26:17.63
What we need to be
careful as we need to
00:26:18.35\00:26:20.48
separate the complications
00:26:20.49\00:26:23.93
organizationally
between the government
00:26:23.94\00:26:26.54
and churches, but
never separate faith from
00:26:26.55\00:26:30.32
society and I think
that is part of the agenda.
00:26:30.33\00:26:33.43
You know it's easy
for us to say we don't
00:26:33.44\00:26:36.86
legislate
morality, but the reality is
00:26:36.87\00:26:39.22
of course we
do. Religious values
00:26:39.23\00:26:41.35
have to inform public policy
00:26:41.36\00:26:43.30
that's always been the case.
00:26:43.31\00:26:45.52
Thinking of
Faith-Based Initiatives from a
00:26:47.24\00:26:50.23
biblical perspective,
what comes to my mind
00:26:50.24\00:26:52.93
immediately is Jesus
looking at that widow
00:26:52.94\00:26:56.20
giving of her single mite
and saying that she had done
00:26:56.21\00:26:59.46
more than all
others, because she give
00:26:59.47\00:27:01.33
all that she had, that
is a sort of initiative
00:27:01.34\00:27:04.04
the sort of
selflessness that faith
00:27:04.05\00:27:06.25
would draw us toward.
I think too of Tabitha
00:27:06.26\00:27:09.94
or Dorcas, a new
Christian who gave
00:27:09.95\00:27:12.91
selflessly of what
she had to those who had
00:27:12.92\00:27:16.05
less than she did.
When she died it was
00:27:16.06\00:27:19.09
a great moment for
God to show his power
00:27:19.10\00:27:21.47
and raise her from
the death. You know
00:27:21.48\00:27:23.66
in our day we have
rough equivalency of
00:27:23.67\00:27:28.11
churches charitable giving being
00:27:28.12\00:27:30.51
questioned and
being stated as needing
00:27:30.52\00:27:33.44
some extra help, and
the state has been called
00:27:33.45\00:27:35.85
into make that
Faith-Based Initiative
00:27:35.86\00:27:40.07
of some more greater impact.
00:27:40.08\00:27:42.62
I believe that
such an arrangement
00:27:43.98\00:27:45.97
results in
death, and of this death
00:27:45.98\00:27:48.37
they can be no resurrection.
00:27:48.38\00:27:49.83
The death of charitable
initiatives by combining
00:27:49.84\00:27:53.28
with the state is an
old era that will decrease
00:27:53.29\00:27:57.46
the initiative of
people of faith and increase
00:27:57.47\00:28:01.28
the power of the state over
00:28:01.29\00:28:02.60
spiritual perspectives.
00:28:02.61\00:28:03.87
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:04.79\00:28:08.06