Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
that brings you up to
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date news,
views, information and
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discussion on events
that relate to religious
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liberty. My name
is Lincoln Steed,
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editor of Liberty
Magazine. And my guest
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on the program is
Attorney Allen Reinach,
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and you're
President of the Church State
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Council for, which
area? Well, the Church
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State Council
serves in California,
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Western region,
right. Churchstate.org is
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our website. Little
advertisement there,
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that's fine. Well
Allen, let's talk about
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something, you and
I are both Seventh-day
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Adventists, both Christians.
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As we look around
especially in the United
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States we can
see that there's an
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increasingly
negative environment that
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Christians often
are working in, and
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in fact it's even
being said that Christianity
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is prejudicial, is
inherently negative to
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rights. Well, the
hostility that the right
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has been sounding,
I'm saying that the
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Christianity is under
attack for many years.
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Honestly Lincoln, when
I first started hearing
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those kinds of
statements I thought they
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were rather shrill, exaggerated.
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I was dismissive of
them, I thought they
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were motivated
by political agenda,
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but I have to tell
you there is increasing
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evidence, and most
recently this past year
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a decision from the
Supreme Court of the
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United States that
essentially held that
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Christianity is discrimination.
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How did that come about though,
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why would, why
would the Supreme Court
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say it? The
majority of the Supreme Court
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justices are Roman
Catholics Christians.
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They got six
Catholics and three Jews,
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it's incredible isn't
it. Well, let's talk about
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the case and you
know maybe it's an
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oversimplification
to say, they didn't say
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"Christianity is
discrimination" that
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simply the
effect of the holding.
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The case arises
from a University of
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California Law
]School in San Francisco,
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Hastings Law School.
Law schools have dozens
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of student clubs. And
in the history of this
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law school there was
only one student group
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that was not
permitted, not recognized as a
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student club, and
that was a chapter of the
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national organization,
the Christian legal
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society, and I
give my disclaimer,
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I've been a member of
Christian legal society
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since law school.
I found it to be very
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wonderful opportunity
to fellowship with other
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Christian law
students in a very harsh
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secular kind of
environment to encourage
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one another, to
pray with one another.
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There was no,
there was a statement of
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faith we had to sign,
but it was only a basic
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belief in the Gospel
and in the case of Hastings,
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I don't remember this
from my law school days
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but there was an
affirmation of fidelity to
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Biblical standards of
sexuality, which is to say
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that you are not
going to engage in
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extramarital sex. It
didn't say whether that
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extramarital sex
was gonna be homosexual
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or heterosexual. So
it wasn't discriminatory
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in the language of
it, it was upholding of
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biblical standard. And
by the very title of that
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society you would
presume that it was a
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group of
Christians. Well what, the law
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school rejected the
application and insisted
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that this club
because it had a statement of
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faith was in violation
of the non-discrimination
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rules of the
university on two counts,
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one because it
discriminated on the basis
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of religion, and also
because it discriminated
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in membership on
the basis of sexual
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orientation. Well, it
wasn't for nine months
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later when the case
is filed, and the dean of
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the law school's
deposition is being taken,
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that they put a new
spin on the policy and
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they decide that
what the policy really as
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applied is not simply
the same kind of you know
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generic every, every
school, every employer
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has a generic non-
discrimination policy.
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We don't discriminate
on the usual bases race
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and sex and age and
disability and you know
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whatever they are
religion, we don't
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discriminate, and
nobody is allowed to
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discriminate and
hiring in the context of a
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university, whether
it's hiring, whether it's
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admissions policies,
you know generic general
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non-discrimination
laws. But the dean then says,
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as applied to
student clubs, you have to
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accept anyone as
a member what the
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Supreme Court
characterized as an
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all-comers policy.
You have to take anybody
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who wants to join as a member.
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Well on its face
that policy is absurd.
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So the young
republicans have to take
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you know professed
communists as members,
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that doesn't make any sense.
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On its face do you
think it likely that
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non-Christian
lawyers would want to?
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Well that was one
of the things that the
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majority in the court
pointed out that there was
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no evidence that the
all-comers policy would
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somehow undermined
the integrity of any of
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the clubs and that
you know that there would
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be a hostel takeover
where, but that one of
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the problems from a
factual standpoint is that
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at the same time
that the dean gave that
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testimony, pointed
out by, I think it was by
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Scalia in his
descent, that there was another
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student club that had
discriminatory membership
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policies for years
and nobody ever said
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anything about it,
and it was on the basis of
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national origin, a
club called La Raza which is
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for Hispanic students,
and they were perfectly
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fine to admit as
members only Latino students.
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But the Christian
club couldn't admit only
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Christian students,
so you know on the basic
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facts there was
something very wrong
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with the University's
interpretation of its own
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policy? It was
obviously discriminatory.
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And maybe the worst
thing of this is, it sort
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of labels Christianity as
an actively discriminatory
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viewpoint. So, because
I'm not sure that I mean
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is there any case
where someone walked in the
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door and they said
you're not a Christian,
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I don't think
they would have said,
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you're a Christian
but you're behaving badly,
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your sexual
habits don't compote.
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I imagine they have
a don't ask; don't tell
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even on their principles,
right. I don't know that
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there is an, that
they've ever had to give
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consideration to
it. That's what I mean,
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so really just an
assumption that's implicit
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in you a common
viewpoint has been made
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to sound discriminatory,
they probably would
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not turn anyone away
that just walked in the
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door and, want to
participate. Well everyone
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is welcome to attend
you know events of any
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of the group. So if
they're gonna sponsor an
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event it's not
exclusive, you know within the
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law school community.
And I think that's pretty
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typical of any of the
group, so if the federal
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society puts on an
event anybody can come,
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you don't have to be
a member of the society.
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The question is, who is
a member and who gets to
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decide what the
activities of the group are,
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etcetera. Well, so the
case gets filed in court
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and the district court
rules against Christian
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Legal society, the
Ninth circuit court of appeals
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rules against them,
it goes up to the US
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Supreme Court we
thought this was a
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no-brainer. Yeah, I
remember thinking that
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myself. Even the
Los Angeles Times which
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you know literally in
its editorial page was
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holding its nose,
saying we don't like what the
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Christian legal
society stands for but we think
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they have a right to
have their members be
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Christian, they
thought that CLS would win.
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And so we're all
shocked and the decisions
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of the court were
very clear that they felt
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that the University
had every right to uphold
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its non-discrimination
policies, that CLS was
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in violation of the
non- discrimination policies,
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and therefore they
ruled against the student
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club and especially
troubling, I want to read
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a quote from the
conclusion of Justice
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Stevens concurring
opinion, because I think
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this really highlights
the dangerous attitude
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that we're seeing
more and more from the
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judiciary. Stevens
wrote, other groups may
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exclude or mistreat
Jews, blacks and women.
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A free society must
tolerate such groups it
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need not subsidize
them, give them its official
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imprimatur or grant
them equal access to law
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school facilities. So
Stevens is equating the
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Christian club,
Christian students meeting
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together with groups
that exclude or mistreat
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Jews, blacks or
women, that is a very, very
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disturbing
assumption. Yeah, you're right,
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and how can we
account to that, but do you
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really think that
this, is this reflected in a
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pattern of decisions
from the Supreme Court
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or you think there
was, they were just in
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this case parroting
some of the assumptions that
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we do here in
society? Well I think.
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Because I still
find it hard to, sorry to
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interrupt but I find it
hard to believe that the
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Supreme Court, six out of nine,
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Roman Catholic
Christians is tilting against
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religion, I think
it's the other way around.
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They have an agenda
to support a certain
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form of civic
Christianity. I am, you
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know clients like to
ask me what's gonna be
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the outcome of the
case, and I remind them
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when I graduated
law school they gave me
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you know I passed the
bar, I got a license to
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practice law, I
didn't get a crystal ball.
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I don't know what the
Supreme Court is gonna
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do in the future, I
can only tell you what
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they did in this case,
and it's a very regrettable
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case, it's not a
question, in this case what
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they essentially held
is that Christianity was in
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violation of the non-
discrimination rules of
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the University rules
that every employer has,
00:10:48.56\00:10:51.72
every university has,
and the implications are
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extremely disturbing
for the future of all kinds
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of religious
organizations, it's now you know
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official from the
Supreme Court, its official
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President to restrict
membership on the basis of
00:11:05.47\00:11:09.55
a Christian club
being Christian that's
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discrimination, that's
even potentially illegal
00:11:12.54\00:11:16.41
discrimination. Yeah,
we've got, we have got a
00:11:16.42\00:11:19.58
long way on carving
out rights for certain
00:11:19.59\00:11:22.44
groups and restricting others.
00:11:22.45\00:11:24.86
So where does this
go from here though?
00:11:26.62\00:11:28.64
Well, the context
is not so much that the
00:11:28.99\00:11:31.73
Supreme Court has
done this previously,
00:11:31.74\00:11:33.72
the real context in
my mind is what courts
00:11:33.91\00:11:37.15
like California
Supreme Court have done in
00:11:37.16\00:11:39.93
elevating the
rights of homosexuality to
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equate them with
race, while diminishing the
00:11:42.99\00:11:47.41
rights of religious
freedom, such that we
00:11:47.42\00:11:49.54
now have this
unleveled playing field where
00:11:49.55\00:11:52.13
homosexuality is protected as a
00:11:52.14\00:11:54.45
fundamental right,
and religion is way down
00:11:54.46\00:11:57.87
here as barely even
counting as a right.
00:11:57.88\00:12:02.35
We should have
another program on this.
00:12:02.62\00:12:03.89
The new found
homosexual exclusive or
00:12:04.34\00:12:09.42
the right trumps
everything else, doesn't
00:12:09.43\00:12:11.53
it? And religious
rights are suffering.
00:12:11.54\00:12:13.54
Well this was a
lesson out of some California
00:12:13.98\00:12:16.18
cases, yeah we can
do a whole show on that
00:12:16.19\00:12:18.35
if you want. Now, you
made an illusion earlier
00:12:18.36\00:12:20.86
and I think it's
correct that we sometimes in
00:12:20.87\00:12:24.86
Liberty Magazine and
on this program dismiss
00:12:24.87\00:12:27.12
many in the
religious right claiming that
00:12:28.04\00:12:29.73
they're being harassed
and marginalized and so
00:12:29.74\00:12:32.76
on, because you
can equally argue that
00:12:32.77\00:12:35.44
certainly under the
last administration they
00:12:35.45\00:12:37.39
were on the box seat,
they had actual political
00:12:37.40\00:12:39.61
power. And I read
some of the books like
00:12:39.62\00:12:41.94
Rush Limbaugh's
brother, I wish I could
00:12:41.95\00:12:43.55
remember his first
name, wrote a book about
00:12:43.56\00:12:45.75
how Christians
are being persecuted,
00:12:45.76\00:12:47.43
and I read that
through, and I didn't like
00:12:47.44\00:12:48.76
his overall
viewpoint, but the examples were
00:12:48.77\00:12:51.59
undeniable. There are
many, many cases in the
00:12:51.60\00:12:54.06
schools and in
society where Christians are
00:12:54.07\00:12:56.73
restricted in proclaiming
their faith, witnessing.
00:12:56.74\00:13:00.27
T-shirts, kids in
school who wanna speak about
00:13:00.99\00:13:04.31
their faith, all sorts
of things that actually are
00:13:04.32\00:13:06.51
legally allowed are
routinely restricted.
00:13:06.52\00:13:08.78
So there's some case
for a growing societal
00:13:09.08\00:13:13.90
disapproval of Christian
action. Some of that we
00:13:13.91\00:13:17.39
have to understand is
the natural hostility of
00:13:17.40\00:13:20.47
the unconverted
heart, right, through the
00:13:20.48\00:13:22.29
Gospel of Jesus Christ.
That's really more what I
00:13:22.30\00:13:24.07
would want to say
because politically and as
00:13:24.08\00:13:26.37
far as given rights,
there's a disconnect,
00:13:26.38\00:13:29.01
there's a certain power
to a religious viewpoint.
00:13:30.18\00:13:32.25
We'll be back after
the break to discuss
00:13:33.17\00:13:35.53
more on this
very important topic.
00:13:35.54\00:13:38.00
One-hundred years, a
long time to do anything
00:13:47.26\00:13:50.78
much less publish a
magazine, but this year
00:13:51.18\00:13:53.85
Liberty, the Seventh-
Day Adventist voice of
00:13:54.24\00:13:56.68
religious freedom,
celebrates one hundred
00:13:56.69\00:13:59.14
years of doing what
it does best, collecting,
00:13:59.15\00:14:01.92
analyzing, and
reporting the ebb and flow of
00:14:02.25\00:14:05.08
religious
expression around the world.
00:14:05.09\00:14:07.08
Issue after issue.
Liberty has taken on the
00:14:07.51\00:14:10.42
tough assignments,
tracking down threats
00:14:10.66\00:14:12.79
to religious freedom
and exposing the work
00:14:12.80\00:14:14.63
of the devil in
every corner of the globe.
00:14:14.64\00:14:17.09
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:14:17.45\00:14:19.91
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom
00:14:20.28\00:14:22.51
issues
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00:14:22.52\00:14:24.15
community itself
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00:14:24.16\00:14:26.42
honestly exposed.
Liberty exists for one
00:14:26.43\00:14:29.73
purpose to help
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00:14:29.74\00:14:32.69
all important
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00:14:32.93\00:14:35.48
while recognizing the
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00:14:35.70\00:14:38.48
struggle. During
the past century,
00:14:38.49\00:14:40.84
Liberty has
experienced challenges of its
00:14:40.99\00:14:42.92
own, but it remains on the job.
00:14:42.93\00:14:45.40
Thanks to the
inspired leadership of a long
00:14:45.79\00:14:48.06
line of dedicated
Adventist Editors,
00:14:48.07\00:14:49.79
three of whom
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00:14:50.20\00:14:51.91
the publications
existence and the foresight
00:14:51.92\00:14:54.48
of a little
woman from New England.
00:14:54.49\00:14:56.32
One hundred years of struggle,
00:14:56.82\00:14:58.68
one hundred years
of victories, religious
00:14:59.04\00:15:01.64
freedom isn't just
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00:15:01.65\00:15:04.33
cultural
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00:15:04.34\00:15:07.30
fighting for the
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00:15:07.91\00:15:10.01
they love as their
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00:15:10.02\00:15:12.98
dictate. Thanks
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00:15:13.28\00:15:15.46
generous support of Seventh-Day
00:15:15.47\00:15:17.09
Adventists everywhere.
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00:15:17.10\00:15:19.78
to accomplish its
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00:15:19.79\00:15:21.98
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00:15:21.99\00:15:24.16
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00:15:24.34\00:15:27.10
long to live and
work in a world bound
00:15:27.11\00:15:30.43
together by the God ordained
00:15:30.44\00:15:32.22
bonds of religious freedom.
00:15:32.23\00:15:34.64
Welcome back to Liberty Insider.
00:15:44.96\00:15:46.73
Before the break I
was talking with Attorney
00:15:46.74\00:15:48.62
Allen Reinach about
developing phenomenon
00:15:48.63\00:15:52.10
in the United States
where Christianity is seen
00:15:52.11\00:15:54.40
as somehow a
prejudicial viewpoint,
00:15:54.41\00:15:58.45
that's really a public
harm, as something that
00:15:59.55\00:16:01.72
needs to be
restricted. Well and there is
00:16:01.73\00:16:03.64
another case that I
want to bring up here
00:16:03.65\00:16:05.87
that is a very
disturbing case, where again
00:16:06.16\00:16:09.00
the Christian
was the one who was
00:16:09.23\00:16:12.18
discriminatory. And
this is more of a real
00:16:12.19\00:16:14.15
world case, I think
the Christian legal society
00:16:14.16\00:16:16.32
is sort of, it gets
into some legal splitting
00:16:16.33\00:16:19.32
hairs I think, I
mean you might not agree
00:16:19.33\00:16:21.59
with that statement.
Well it's a real world
00:16:21.60\00:16:24.29
case when you're a
Christian law student and
00:16:24.30\00:16:26.58
you're not allowed
to have your meetings on
00:16:26.59\00:16:29.30
the same basis as
any other student club.
00:16:29.31\00:16:32.51
Well what I'm getting.
It tells it very plainly
00:16:32.52\00:16:34.55
that your religion and
your status is a second
00:16:34.95\00:16:38.01
class citizen
within the law student,
00:16:38.02\00:16:40.16
I mean within the
law school. Well it's the
00:16:40.53\00:16:41.50
status of the
club, because there's no
00:16:41.86\00:16:43.22
evidence that there
been problems within the
00:16:43.23\00:16:46.85
club of, right,
undesirables coming in or
00:16:46.86\00:16:49.81
them restricting
anyone. Well, exactly,
00:16:49.82\00:16:52.35
this is a policy on
how that club was regarded,
00:16:52.36\00:16:54.65
but this case you
bring up as a woman that
00:16:54.92\00:16:58.50
for her religious
viewpoint was clearly
00:16:58.74\00:17:00.85
ostracized and
treated as persona unheard
00:17:00.86\00:17:04.00
of. Well let's set up
the case, in Michigan,
00:17:04.01\00:17:07.83
a young woman
Julia Ward was in a
00:17:08.36\00:17:10.28
graduate program at a
public institution in,
00:17:10.29\00:17:14.39
I want to say, oh
what's the name of the
00:17:15.21\00:17:17.66
school, Eastern
Michigan University.
00:17:17.67\00:17:22.10
I don't have it
in the notes here,
00:17:22.71\00:17:24.08
but it was a public
institution, she's in a
00:17:24.37\00:17:27.58
graduate program,
she is studying to be a
00:17:27.59\00:17:29.72
high school
counselor. Not the kind of
00:17:29.73\00:17:33.04
counselor that
tells you, you know what
00:17:33.05\00:17:35.78
courses you have to
take, you know to get
00:17:35.79\00:17:38.15
into college or
whatever, but one who deals
00:17:38.16\00:17:40.72
with student
problems, things like drug
00:17:40.73\00:17:43.54
addiction, relationship
issues, students who
00:17:43.55\00:17:45.97
maybe suicidal, in a
real, real counseling,
00:17:45.98\00:17:49.48
she is in a
counseling program and early on
00:17:50.85\00:17:54.63
her Christianity
becomes a source of constant
00:17:54.81\00:17:58.93
conflict with her
faculty. She gets very good
00:17:58.94\00:18:02.07
grades, she's not,
she doesn't get bad grades
00:18:02.08\00:18:05.25
because she
expresses her Christian values
00:18:05.50\00:18:07.65
and Christian
viewpoint, but it's clearly a
00:18:07.83\00:18:10.22
point in conflict. So
then it comes to where she
00:18:10.23\00:18:15.86
has to do the actual counseling,
00:18:15.87\00:18:18.15
the practical part of
the program and so they
00:18:18.16\00:18:21.01
assigned her a
counselee who is a homosexual,
00:18:21.02\00:18:26.09
knowing that in her
value system she cannot
00:18:26.50\00:18:29.93
affirm his sexual
orientation. That was a
00:18:30.09\00:18:34.15
bit of set up there
obvious, it was a set up,
00:18:34.16\00:18:36.23
what she does is
simply ask the supervising
00:18:36.67\00:18:40.44
faculty member
what should she do?
00:18:40.45\00:18:43.11
Should she go ahead
and do the counseling
00:18:43.38\00:18:45.58
or should she refer,
because she knows that
00:18:45.77\00:18:48.91
the requirement is
for her to affirm the
00:18:48.92\00:18:53.22
lifestyle and
the sexuality of the
00:18:53.23\00:18:55.92
counselee, and she
knows that's a problem
00:18:55.93\00:18:58.25
for her. So she
asks for guidance,
00:18:58.26\00:19:01.56
what should I do?
As a result of simply
00:19:01.57\00:19:04.77
asking for guidance
she subjected to what
00:19:04.87\00:19:08.26
amounts to an inquisition,
which the university
00:19:08.27\00:19:12.59
and the courts
insist was not disciplinary,
00:19:12.60\00:19:15.97
but the result of
the inquisition is,
00:19:16.39\00:19:18.88
she is put to an
ultimatum, you either
00:19:19.07\00:19:21.85
agree that you can
affirm the lifestyle and
00:19:22.12\00:19:27.09
the sexuality of gay
people or you're expelled
00:19:27.10\00:19:31.85
from the program.
You either change how you
00:19:31.86\00:19:36.69
interpret and apply
your religious beliefs or
00:19:37.08\00:19:41.19
you're out. She was
expelled from the program
00:19:41.45\00:19:44.15
and she filed a
religious discrimination case
00:19:44.16\00:19:46.98
in federal court
alleging that she had been
00:19:46.99\00:19:50.11
expelled from the
university on account
00:19:50.65\00:19:53.20
of her religious
beliefs. And, was there
00:19:53.43\00:19:56.21
acknowledgment it was
because of her beliefs?
00:19:56.22\00:19:58.90
There was no major
dispute over the facts.
00:19:59.01\00:20:03.44
There was a big dispute over the
00:20:03.62\00:20:05.96
interpretation of the facts.
00:20:05.97\00:20:08.04
The University's
defense was that their
00:20:08.35\00:20:11.98
counseling program
has to comply with,
00:20:12.21\00:20:15.54
let's see I have it
in my notes, it's the
00:20:16.48\00:20:17.95
American Counseling
Association's code of
00:20:17.96\00:20:22.55
ethics and practice,
she was in violation of the
00:20:22.56\00:20:26.86
code of ethics and
practice of the American
00:20:26.87\00:20:29.52
Counseling
Association and that the ACA
00:20:29.53\00:20:32.53
code was required
for accreditation.
00:20:32.54\00:20:34.89
So the University
insists we have to teach and
00:20:35.14\00:20:37.97
require all
students to comply with these
00:20:37.98\00:20:41.28
standards of
ethics, and if they don't,
00:20:41.29\00:20:43.63
we're at risk of
losing our accreditation.
00:20:43.94\00:20:46.04
And let me throw a
wild card at you, look,
00:20:46.21\00:20:47.94
this case is what it
is, but if she had gotten
00:20:48.36\00:20:51.86
through her schooling
and then was practicing,
00:20:51.87\00:20:54.22
would she have
been protected under the
00:20:54.96\00:20:56.79
Religious Land Use
and Institutionalized
00:20:57.50\00:20:59.27
Persons Act. Well you
know that's a completely
00:20:59.28\00:21:02.16
different
application. That doesn't apply,
00:21:02.17\00:21:05.02
didn't the
Institutionalized Persons
00:21:05.03\00:21:06.54
Act deal with pharmacists
and hospital workers,
00:21:06.55\00:21:09.87
it was hospital
workers who were refusing to
00:21:09.88\00:21:11.93
perform abortions.
There are separate provisions
00:21:11.94\00:21:15.12
that deal with
rights of conscience and
00:21:15.13\00:21:17.45
healthcare, but it is
problematic if you are a
00:21:17.46\00:21:22.60
counselor and
you refuse to counsel
00:21:22.61\00:21:26.35
homosexuals in states
that outlaw discrimination
00:21:26.36\00:21:30.23
against gays,
you could be sued for
00:21:30.24\00:21:32.29
discrimination.
Well let me, you know I'm
00:21:32.30\00:21:34.91
playing, not the
devil's advocate but I take
00:21:34.92\00:21:38.54
it some of these
views, clearly as a Christian
00:21:38.55\00:21:41.68
we can't always
expect that the law is in
00:21:42.93\00:21:45.34
accordance with our viewpoint,
00:21:45.35\00:21:46.64
that's fair
enough. And I do think
00:21:46.81\00:21:48.40
progressively has
become prophetically close
00:21:49.04\00:21:53.09
to time of conflict;
we just have to do what
00:21:53.10\00:21:55.50
we do and take
the legal consequence.
00:21:55.51\00:21:57.55
Why I mean what's the
line of logic here that
00:21:58.23\00:22:02.46
we should bent
the state to our will?
00:22:02.47\00:22:05.30
Is this just holding
it to, it's claim that
00:22:06.74\00:22:08.71
gives free exercise or
do we believe that this
00:22:08.72\00:22:12.73
anti-discrimination
law is wrongfully applied.
00:22:12.74\00:22:15.63
Alright, there is
an assumption that you,
00:22:16.15\00:22:17.98
in your question about
bending the state to it's
00:22:18.20\00:22:20.66
will. In this
particular case Miss Ward
00:22:20.67\00:22:25.21
was simply saying as
a Christian I have the
00:22:25.23\00:22:28.03
right to complete
my University education
00:22:28.04\00:22:31.29
and to practice in
the counseling profession
00:22:31.65\00:22:34.67
and without having
to jettison my Christian
00:22:35.29\00:22:38.61
values. And the
Eastern, the district court in
00:22:38.62\00:22:42.32
Eastern District of
Michigan ruled in favor of
00:22:42.33\00:22:45.49
the University and
said no, this is not
00:22:45.50\00:22:48.36
religious discrimination,
the University has
00:22:48.37\00:22:50.77
every right to uphold
the standard of ethics
00:22:50.78\00:22:53.10
and conduct, the
American Counseling
00:22:53.11\00:22:54.92
Association and has
every right to throw
00:22:54.93\00:22:57.42
you out of the
program because you won't
00:22:57.43\00:22:59.96
affirm the
sexuality of a counselee.
00:22:59.97\00:23:04.08
As a licensed
counselor, would she be in
00:23:04.96\00:23:07.48
trouble if she was
reported to be either
00:23:07.49\00:23:11.38
refusing to counsel
homosexuals or counseling
00:23:11.39\00:23:14.04
them that this was
an abhorrent lifestyle.
00:23:14.05\00:23:17.03
If I'm remembering
the statistics correctly,
00:23:17.80\00:23:20.73
something like 40
percent of currently licensed
00:23:21.40\00:23:25.10
psychologists,
social workers etc.
00:23:25.11\00:23:27.77
who do counseling will
not counsel gay people.
00:23:27.78\00:23:31.80
So they have that exclusion.
00:23:31.81\00:23:33.32
Well it's not that they have the
00:23:33.33\00:23:35.01
exclusion, you know
it's still only a relatively
00:23:35.02\00:23:39.13
small number of
states that have laws
00:23:39.14\00:23:41.95
against discrimination
on the basis of sexual
00:23:42.10\00:23:44.65
orientation. There
is no question that it
00:23:44.66\00:23:48.20
could be troublesome
if as a counselor you
00:23:48.21\00:23:51.34
refused to
counsel someone. You know
00:23:51.35\00:23:53.74
part of it though
you know is really based
00:23:53.89\00:23:56.31
on common sense. If
you're a counselor and
00:23:56.32\00:24:00.82
you act with any
sense of human decency
00:24:00.83\00:24:03.58
and compassion, and
you say to someone when
00:24:03.59\00:24:07.19
the issue of their
sexual orientation becomes
00:24:07.20\00:24:10.29
an issue in
counseling, then you say to them
00:24:10.30\00:24:12.08
look I may not be the
best person to counsel
00:24:12.09\00:24:16.84
you because you know
I have certain values
00:24:16.85\00:24:19.88
and beliefs I
cannot affirm your sexual
00:24:19.89\00:24:24.03
orientation, you
may choose to continue
00:24:24.04\00:24:26.79
with someone and I
can refer you to someone
00:24:26.80\00:24:30.09
you know who maybe
able to, to help you,
00:24:30.37\00:24:33.19
if you're
interested in you know,
00:24:34.00\00:24:36.96
if the gay person is
uncomfortable with their
00:24:37.39\00:24:41.76
orientation and wants to change.
00:24:41.77\00:24:45.08
You know maybe that
counseling relationship
00:24:45.51\00:24:47.91
is appropriate, but if
someone is wanting to be
00:24:48.12\00:24:51.12
affirmed they may
want somebody who can
00:24:51.13\00:24:53.48
affirm them, and so
why would you think that
00:24:53.49\00:24:56.20
you have to sue
someone simply because
00:24:56.21\00:24:59.03
you know they can't
provide you with the
00:24:59.27\00:25:01.31
service that you're entitled to.
00:25:01.32\00:25:03.08
You and I've
talked about this before,
00:25:03.32\00:25:04.79
and we're involved in
these on Religious Liberty
00:25:04.80\00:25:06.77
all the time. I think
on gay rights for example,
00:25:06.78\00:25:10.15
it got some traction
on a fallacy that this was
00:25:11.00\00:25:14.15
the exactly the
same as civil rights.
00:25:14.16\00:25:16.17
It is a fallacy. And
once we've crossed that
00:25:16.59\00:25:19.93
logical line, I do
believe that the legal system
00:25:20.23\00:25:24.16
has got two
protected classes that are in
00:25:25.93\00:25:27.64
conflict, and you know
everything is cause and
00:25:27.65\00:25:30.47
affect, you have to
follow the logical conclusion
00:25:30.48\00:25:32.69
through. Obama's
appointment, I don't
00:25:32.70\00:25:34.60
believe that this
country is by any means
00:25:34.61\00:25:37.23
formally turned
against religion.
00:25:37.24\00:25:39.16
I mean in practice,
there is a lot of diabolism,
00:25:39.60\00:25:41.88
and people that are
secular minded but it's
00:25:41.89\00:25:44.95
following the
logical progression, and
00:25:44.96\00:25:47.65
something's gonna have to give.
00:25:47.76\00:25:49.42
Well okay, one of
the bellwethers Lincoln,
00:25:49.64\00:25:52.71
on the subject of
marriage, courts around
00:25:52.81\00:25:56.44
the country
including in places like Iowa,
00:25:56.45\00:25:59.07
you know have ruled
in favor of same sex
00:25:59.85\00:26:02.70
marriage when it's
been put to the ballot,
00:26:02.71\00:26:05.40
the American people
have consistently voted
00:26:05.89\00:26:08.44
against it, right,
so there is a difference
00:26:08.45\00:26:10.79
between public
opinion. Now the proponents of
00:26:10.80\00:26:14.45
same sex marriage
insists that the pendulum is
00:26:14.46\00:26:17.42
swinging and
eventually every, you know the
00:26:17.43\00:26:19.35
majority is gonna
vote for it, but where we
00:26:19.36\00:26:22.15
stand now, the
courts have voted for it,
00:26:22.16\00:26:24.38
it, the
American people have not.
00:26:24.39\00:26:26.15
But we're in a
huge, we're running out of
00:26:27.09\00:26:29.12
time, we're in a huge
social experiment where
00:26:29.13\00:26:30.98
the society is
being swung toward that.
00:26:30.99\00:26:32.81
The problem here
is it we have both the
00:26:33.14\00:26:35.55
Supreme Court
decision and a district court
00:26:35.56\00:26:38.77
decision essentially
holding the Christianity
00:26:38.78\00:26:41.87
is discrimination and upholding
00:26:41.99\00:26:44.26
discrimination
against Christians.
00:26:44.52\00:26:46.82
Anybody that doubts
that there's a certain
00:26:48.75\00:26:51.08
bias against
Christianity in our culture,
00:26:51.09\00:26:53.44
has clearly not,
never watched an episode of
00:26:53.45\00:26:56.07
the Simpsons.
Periodically I, a troublesome
00:26:56.08\00:27:00.78
neighbor of Homer
Simpson, Ned Flanders,
00:27:00.79\00:27:04.15
would come on and
his sanctimonious or
00:27:04.16\00:27:06.94
even worse, bubble
headed religion was so
00:27:06.95\00:27:10.49
cast as anti-social,
dangerous, simplistic
00:27:10.68\00:27:14.31
that anybody
watching that program after a
00:27:14.83\00:27:17.38
while would come to
believe that Christianity
00:27:17.39\00:27:19.80
was against
everything sane and hopeful
00:27:20.30\00:27:22.82
and uplifting
in a crazy society.
00:27:23.41\00:27:26.45
We have in many ways
come to live out that
00:27:27.39\00:27:30.77
cynical world view of a
long running TV program.
00:27:30.78\00:27:34.47
We're seeing it
worked out through the
00:27:34.80\00:27:36.09
courts, not in every
case but more and more,
00:27:36.10\00:27:39.30
either a judge or a
plaintiff bringing some
00:27:39.62\00:27:42.55
sort of a case claiming
that Christianity is the
00:27:42.56\00:27:46.56
trouble. When in
reality our society arguably
00:27:46.57\00:27:50.67
is in trouble because
its lost sight of not just
00:27:50.68\00:27:53.72
Christianity but all
the higher values that
00:27:53.73\00:27:56.83
really dignify and
protect the society from
00:27:56.84\00:28:00.72
the very things
that we're experiencing.
00:28:00.73\00:28:02.48
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:04.50\00:28:07.14