Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Alan Reinach
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000119
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:24 This is a program that brings you 00:25 up to date news, views and information and 00:28 discussion on religious liberty events. 00:31 My name is Lincoln Steed, 00:32 editor of Liberty Magazine and my guest 00:34 on the program is attorney Allen Reinach. 00:38 Thanks Allen, it's good to have you on 00:39 the program. This is not the first time, 00:42 you've been on in the past and we're planning 00:45 on doing a number of filmings of you with us 00:47 at the moment. I would like to 00:49 ask you a question, Reinach is a Jewish 00:53 name I think. It is. But let's talk about 00:57 something that is concerning the whole 00:59 world, but Jews have a little different 01:02 take on Islam, or the Islamic world. 01:06 And we'll relate it to religious freedom. 01:09 You and I working for religious liberty 01:10 which is at root the right for all people, 01:14 doesn't matter what faith or no faith 01:16 to believe or disbelieve anything. 01:17 Right. That's an accepted thing for any 01:21 discussion we have, but when we look 01:23 at the world today the religious 01:24 and political world we see that Islam 01:28 is certainly in the headlines and arguably 01:30 is resurgent or in an aggressive way 01:34 through some of the immigrants to 01:37 different countries, to Europe and so on. 01:38 They're arguing that they should have 01:41 certain rights to go beyond just the right 01:43 to practice their faith, they in essence 01:45 want to force it on a society 01:47 where they are, you know what do we do 01:50 with this like Sharia law, 01:51 is Sharia law for the United States. 01:54 First let me say in the United States 01:58 whether we grant religious freedom from 02:01 Muslims, is really kind of the bellwether 02:04 the so called canary in the coal mine 02:06 of whether there's religious freedom 02:08 in the United States. And I think 02:10 Americans commitment to religious freedom 02:13 is really wavering. And we see that 02:17 in political battles all not just in 02:19 New York City but all over the country 02:21 over whether we'll permit mosques 02:24 to be built and just in this last election 02:28 cycle 70 percent of the people 02:31 in Oklahoma voted for a ballot initiative 02:35 that would prohibit the use of Sharia 02:38 or International law in deciding cases 02:42 in the Oklahoma courts. Now let's go 02:45 a little further why in Oklahoma 02:47 which does strike me as a, 02:49 a Muslim hot bed, no. Why was there 02:52 even suggested in that area that they 02:54 would go on Sharia law. Well look 02:56 I think that culturally you know within 03:01 the Bible Belt there is this, there is this 03:03 tremendous animosity, the sense that 03:08 equates American interests and values 03:12 and our war against terrorism that 03:14 somehow there's this war between Islam 03:17 and Christianity. And so Christians 03:21 are at war with Islam and so we want to 03:25 fight against Islam, exactly. And to insist, 03:30 you know there's been discussion for example 03:33 in England, you're from a Commonwealth 03:35 country as to the relevance of Sharia law 03:39 and whether courts will respect some of the 03:43 legal rights and obligations, no, 03:45 it was, that's coming up in England 03:46 and most specifically in the London area 03:49 because there's a huge number of Islamic 03:51 immigrants and some of the more radical 03:53 mosques that are well attended, 03:55 and they've been implicated in terrorist 03:56 actions are right in their midst, and so 03:59 there's a social pressure 04:01 that they are trying to fend off or sometimes 04:04 even to denature this new aggression by, 04:08 you know well you can have Sharia law 04:10 in your community. Maybe for our viewers 04:14 and it just occurred to me we might be 04:15 making an assumption that they know 04:17 what Sharia law is? Well I'm sure that 04:19 I don't really know entirely what it is. 04:23 You know I imagine that it is based on a 04:26 long tradition of interpreting the Quran 04:29 Like we have in Judaism where the rabbis 04:31 have interpreted the Torah over the 04:34 centuries and have developed a body 04:36 of law and added to it. Isn't that true that 04:39 some of the, the Rabbinic laws really 04:43 are not specifically stated in the Torah 04:47 but they've come about sort of, they thought 04:50 they saw a principle and then added to a 04:51 particular requirement so on then that 04:53 became tradition. Well, you know, 04:55 when the old, that's certainly the case with 04:57 Sharia law. The old saying is you have 04:59 two Jewish you have five opinions. 05:01 So you know if you, the orthodox will insist 05:04 that the entire body was either given 05:07 directly to Moses in writing or orally 05:11 and it all goes back of course there are other 05:13 brands of Judaism that take different 05:16 perspectives on how much really was 05:21 given and how much was added or 05:23 interpreted over the years. That's sure, 05:25 it's certainly I think fair to say that 05:27 Sharia law is not narrowly speaking 05:30 only their requirements that are in the Quran. 05:33 This is an accretion of lifestyle requirements 05:40 in Islamic communities through the centuries 05:44 that have become cultural that, 'cause 05:47 in Islamic society there's never any 05:49 distinction between the religious viewpoint 05:51 and how the society run so that, 05:53 that whole economy that legal system 05:56 because that was the only legal system, 05:57 right, was religion executed that how 06:01 legal system has become the Sharia system 06:04 and not all Muslims in all countries fully 06:07 follower. It's sort of like the 06:10 ultra-Orthodox Jewish community demanding 06:13 that they apply their laws on all Jews. 06:15 So I think we need to point out that 06:18 probably, a goodly percentage of Muslims 06:20 around the world are at least uncomfortable 06:22 to have Sharia law as the major law applied 06:26 to them, but now in the aftermath of 9/11 06:29 when the West clearly is feeling edgy. 06:33 I think there, there's a pressure there 06:35 maybe sort of give away a little bit 06:37 and we can placate them and I think it's a 06:40 legal mistake and I think it's a cultural 06:42 mistake and it's a religious mistake to 06:45 allow Sharia law. Well I think that it's 06:50 important to make distinctions, 06:53 to say we're going to allow it in general 06:56 sounds you know over the top, it sounds 06:59 unreasonable. What one federal judge 07:03 did in Oklahoma when one of the Muslim 07:08 leaders challenged the initiative in court, 07:12 he found that he violated the first 07:14 amendment that it essentially sent a 07:17 clear signal that Muslims were second 07:20 class citizens that they were unwelcome, 07:22 he that would interfere specifically for 07:26 example with the provisions of 07:28 plaintiffs will upon death and the 07:31 application of it because he had invoked 07:34 all kinds of provisions of Sharia law, terms of 07:38 the disposition of property. I'm not 07:40 convinced without going further, 07:42 we have, but is that a legal problem, 07:44 it will only be a problem, you can say 07:45 whatever you want in the world. 07:47 Sharia law or other laws that will stand 07:50 as your laws will on testament, unless 07:52 it's specifically count as a law of the land 07:56 right, so Sharia law is that, 07:58 it's what it is. What I'm saying is the judge 07:59 says that to, unless it's required legally. 08:02 The judge found that the ballot initiative 08:06 that said, you know, we will never look 08:08 the irony, we'll look at Sharia law 08:10 said that was a violation of the first 08:12 amendment it was discriminatory 08:15 that would have the effect of infringing on 08:19 the religious freedom. The decision 08:21 does not say then that we should permit 08:26 Sharia law lock, stock, and barrel. 08:28 But take for example something out 08:31 of the context of Jewish law with which 08:34 I'm a little bit more familiar. If you go 08:37 to the super market even in the most 08:40 non-Jewish areas, you will find a symbol; 08:44 it's a little U for example indicating that 08:47 a product is kosher. Well who, the state 08:51 does actually have to regulate basic you now 08:55 truths and advertising, health and safety, 08:58 you know there are religious standards 09:00 of what the Rabbis must do in order for 09:03 something to be kosher, people have a 09:05 right if you're kosher. You have a right to 09:08 know that if you're buying kosher food 09:11 it really is kosher and so the state 09:14 does, and I'm presuming there are similar 09:15 requirements on Halal foods right. 09:17 So what I'm saying is you know it's not 09:19 so as simple as saying oh we don't want 09:22 Sharia law. You know, no we don't 09:26 want the government somehow to just 09:30 endorse Jewish law and bring Jewish law 09:33 into our secular legal system but at the 09:36 same token Orthodox-Jews 09:38 or observant Jews who want to buy 09:40 kosher food have a right to know 09:42 that the food that they're buying it's 09:43 labeled Kosher is in fact Kosher. Of course. 09:48 So it raises problems. That's what on that, 09:50 on the example you get it right, 09:52 you know Halal food that's acceptable 09:54 to Muslims. I'm presuming since it's 09:58 in the food area, FDA, it was the Food 10:00 and Drug Administration, aha, 10:02 clearly must monitor that, and that's 10:04 reasonable. But that's not really the same 10:06 as general law for a country that would 10:09 be replaced by another whole system. 10:13 Well you know, but I agree, this is where 10:16 I think you know it's easy we have this 10:18 sort of negative attitude for Sharia law. 10:20 Well take marriage for example; 10:23 Sharia law in some countries prohibits 10:26 polygamy. According what has been reading 10:30 about this Oklahoma case there are those 10:33 who insist that in America Sharia law 10:37 requires compliance with the laws 10:40 of the land and does not permit polygamy 10:43 in the United States. So, you know if 10:47 we're afraid that somehow by accepting 10:50 Sharia law we're going to have to 10:52 tolerate polygamy in the United States. 10:55 I think that's probably wrong. 11:01 Why? Well for starters, now what you're 11:06 really saying and what I, this is 11:07 what I'm getting it I think we have a law, 11:10 for any country has laws and whether 11:12 it's Sharia or Orthodox Judaism, 11:17 if it can fit within the overall constructs 11:20 of whatever that legal system is fine. 11:22 Islam is, it doesn't break the law 11:24 but that is not the same as it replacing 11:26 or superseding of that other law. 11:27 we have a, where we have the separation 11:31 of church and state and free exercise 11:33 of religion, there is in essence no, 11:36 there should be no conflict between law 11:39 in the sense of religious law of Sharia 11:41 or otherwise, operating within people's 11:45 private lives and their religious community 11:47 until it counts an overall civil law. And 11:50 that's where the punch comes. Two points. 11:53 We have a long standing premise 11:55 here that we apply neutral principles of 11:58 law when it comes to the religious 12:00 community. We applied secular principles of 12:03 law that's the first thing. The second 12:06 thing is since the Peyote case in 1990 12:09 we don't have too much religious 12:12 freedom in America we have far too 12:14 little protection for religious freedom 12:16 in America. And the hostility, the hostility 12:20 towards Muslims in America is only 12:23 threatening to reduce even further 12:25 whatever religious freedom, that the rest 12:28 of us enjoy. Yeah. The Peyote case was, 12:31 this was religious ceremonies and was 12:34 the sweat lodges, where was, we use 12:36 the Peyote in a religious ceremony 12:38 and we might not agree with it on with our 12:43 drug laws but it was from time 12:45 and memorial this was part of their religious 12:47 ceremony more ritual than experimental 12:52 and squashing that it really 12:54 had implications for religious 12:56 practice didn't it, for all 12:57 religious practice. It demolished the 12:58 free exercise clause. Well we back after a 13:01 break to continue this discussion. 13:14 One-hundred years, a long time 13:17 to do anything much less publish a 13:19 magazine, but this year Liberty, 13:22 the Seventh-Day Adventist voice 13:24 of religious freedom, celebrates 13:25 one hundred years of doing what it does 13:28 best, collecting, analyzing, 13:30 and reporting the ebb and flow of religious 13:33 expression around the world. 13:35 Issue after issue. Liberty has taken on 13:37 the tough assignments, tracking down 13:40 threats to religious freedom 13:41 and exposing the work of the devil 13:42 in every corner of the globe. 13:45 Governmental interference, 13:46 personal attacks, corporate assaults, 13:48 even religious freedom issues sequestered 13:51 within the church community itself 13:52 have been clearly and honestly exposed. 13:55 Liberty exists for one purpose to help God's 13:59 people maintain that all important 14:01 separation of Church and State, 14:03 while recognizing the dangers inherent 14:05 in such a struggle. During the past 14:07 century, Liberty has experienced challenges 14:10 of its own, but it remains on the job. 14:13 Thanks to the inspired leadership 14:15 of a long line of dedicated Adventist 14:16 Editors, three of whom represent almost 14:19 half of the publications existence 14:20 and the foresight of a little woman 14:22 from New England. One hundred years 14:25 of struggle, one hundred years 14:27 of victories, religious freedom 14:29 isn't just about political machines 14:31 and cultural prejudices. It's about 14:34 people fighting for the right to serve 14:37 the God they love as their hearts 14:39 and the Holy Spirit dictate. 14:41 Thanks to the prayers and generous 14:43 support of Seventh-Day Adventists 14:45 everywhere. Liberty will continue to 14:47 accomplish its work of providing 14:49 timely information, spirit filled 14:51 inspiration, and heaven sent 14:52 encouragement to all who long 14:55 to live and work in a world bound 14:58 together by the God ordained 14:59 bonds of religious freedom. 15:12 Welcome back to The Liberty Insider. 15:14 Before the break I was talking with the 15:15 attorney Allen Reinach about 15:17 Sharia law. Now there are many 15:21 ramifications internationally of course 15:23 it's quite a political issue but even within 15:25 the United States and their 15:27 predominantly Western, perhaps 15:31 predominantly Christian culture 15:32 there are some pressures 15:34 that are perceived perhaps to adult 15:36 some elements of Sharia law 15:37 in this community. But let's be specific 15:41 Lincoln. For example supposing 15:44 here in America a Muslim daughter 15:50 converts to Christianity and 15:52 one of the immediate family says 15:55 well under our law we have the right 15:57 to kill her. And so they kill her and then 16:01 they get prosecuted for murder 16:03 and as a defense the relative says well 16:06 but I was scaring, this is not hypothetical 16:08 by the way, it has happened. 16:11 In the United States it happened? Yes. 16:13 Well I don't know the case but the reality 16:16 is and you know we had a similar case, 16:19 I had a reporter call me years ago 16:22 there was a couple of gays that were 16:25 killed up in Northern California 16:28 by some skinhead types who were 16:30 proclaiming that this, you know was their 16:32 religious obligation that God taught 16:35 you know told them to go do this 16:37 and I said you know religion is not a 16:39 defense to murder and the same is gonna be 16:42 true in, you can't claim somehow well 16:46 this is authorized by Sharia law, 16:48 now we are going to apply our laws 16:51 regarding criminal. Clearly the prevailing 16:57 law is the law of the land that we have 17:00 them with great arm in this case 17:01 the constitution and the western law 17:04 that goes with that. And so really 17:06 what you are trying to keep this 17:07 Sharia law is sort of below that radar 17:10 whether in Islamic communities 17:12 but I don't think that's really the 17:14 route of the fear that some people 17:16 have that was exemplified by this 17:18 preemptive and very prejudice 17:23 regulation that was put down, 17:25 all of this request for a regulation. 17:27 Well one of the things I think that 17:30 might be helpful to our listeners. 17:31 The kind of area where we see 17:34 a lot of conflicts currently over 17:38 how will our courts interact with religious 17:41 law. One of the perennial problems 17:44 has to do with how church property 17:48 is helped. We were talking in a different 17:51 discussion about the issue of abortion. 17:54 Well between abortion and homosexuality 17:57 denominations have been split. 17:59 So what happens when the denomination 18:02 is more liberal and a conservative 18:04 church says well we don't agree with the 18:08 ordination of gays as clergy and so 18:11 we're going to withdraw from the 18:12 denomination and the denomination 18:15 says well you know you can quit if you 18:18 want but we own the title to the church. 18:21 And these disputes have happened 18:23 many of them and the courts have to come in 18:26 and decide who owns the church. 18:28 Does the local church community that's been 18:31 worshiping there own the property or does 18:33 the denomination and it's been a very 18:36 difficult to hoe for the secular courts 18:40 to you know they don't want to get into the 18:42 business of interpreting religious 18:44 law and making, interfering with 18:47 religious decisions and so what 18:49 they've developed is this body of law 18:51 that says we have to look to 18:53 for example secular principles of contract 18:56 law of property rights to see you know 18:58 who owns the church, they're not gonna 19:01 get into interpreting 19:02 religion. Not now essentially. 19:03 But remember we've been there; 19:04 the western world has been 19:06 there not the United States. 19:07 Alright. But this is well established 19:10 an American law. In colonies 19:12 that was a little bit of that went on. 19:14 And so I think when we talk about 19:17 Sharia law or indeed any religious law 19:19 or any religious requirements or any, 19:23 the rules of any particular sect. 19:25 if you grant that the power of law 19:27 even of all of the adherence of that 19:30 particular faith there's gonna be 19:32 prejudice. Like when the Roman Catholic 19:34 Church had the year of the state in the 19:37 old world that meant the descendants 19:40 within their own church could be 19:42 punished with the power of law 19:43 and Sharia law would be no different 19:45 I think people are missing part of the 19:47 issue with the discussion of Sharia. 19:49 We see it there's another religion 19:51 threatening Christianity but I see 19:53 it if it were to ever gain a foothold 19:58 in our culture I see it is used 20:00 prejudicially against Muslims themselves. 20:02 Well because they're not of one voice. 20:05 Sharia law is determine by whatever 20:08 Mullah or Imam chooses to speak to us. 20:10 Right. So let me give you another spin 20:12 on this problem. Because Christians, 20:15 conservative Christians in America 20:18 have been some of the foremost 20:20 opponents of the separation of church 20:23 and state. Right. And yet, 20:24 this is where he comes home, exactly. And yet, 20:27 you know they are also opponents 20:30 of the incorporation of Sharia law 20:33 in any sense. It's the separation 20:35 of church and state that is the ball work 20:38 against, it's the protection against 20:41 the abusive incorporation 20:44 of Sharia law that there should 20:46 I mean if you want to understand 20:49 why we need separation of church 20:51 and state look at Iran. Look at 20:54 a country that applies Sharia law. 20:57 That's the real lesson is, yeah we need 21:00 to have the government and the courts 21:02 remain fundamentally secular. 21:04 Are they're gonna be problems with 21:05 that in terms of not getting the respect 21:10 for religion and the protection of 21:11 religious freedom, yeah we've had those 21:13 problems but on balance we definitely 21:16 need the establishment clause protection 21:19 to keep the church and state in their 21:22 separate fears. During the break hours 21:26 reminding you, I think what brought 21:28 Sharia law to western attention was a 21:31 curious event, I think about 20s, 21:33 maybe, times goes by maybe 20, 25 years 21:36 ago Salman Rushdie, an English Muslim 21:40 background author but departed from 21:43 his faith wrote a book, Satanic Verses, 21:45 I remember the title and some imam swore 21:50 out a Fatwa, which, what that amounts 21:53 to is here's a religious leader 21:55 up in front of his constituency he 21:57 invokes the Quran, he is a heretic insulter 22:00 of the faith. Recruiting people 22:03 to murder him. He says you are there for 22:05 religiously free and I encourage you to do 22:08 away with this prostate, right. 22:09 And Rushdie went into hiding for 22:11 about a decades as is not remembered, 22:12 yeah. That shocked the western 22:14 world but that was their first introduction 22:17 to it and people should remember that, 22:19 they should remember that we've seen grainy 22:23 footage from Saudi Arabia or if not too 22:25 long ago if a woman taken in adultery, 22:30 the man was lead of with just a slap 22:31 on the wrist but the woman taken in 22:32 adultery beheaded in the public square. 22:37 That's not the sort of accountability for 22:41 religious infractions that whether it's Islam 22:43 or Christianity whatever we want to 22:44 see, Right no question. The institute in a 22:47 progressive civil society. But there's 22:49 another issue here Lincoln which is not 22:51 just how the state is gonna deal with Islam 22:54 it's a theological issue for Christians. 22:57 The question was asked me at lunch after 23:00 church last week isn' Islam at war, 23:04 Isn't Islam an enemy of Christianity. 23:08 And I've given some thought to that 23:09 question because regardless of what 23:11 you think American policy should be 23:14 in the Middle East and in our, you know 23:17 war on terrorism as Christians. 23:20 Even assuming that Islam is "an enemy." 23:25 What does Jesus teach us should be 23:27 our attitude towards our enemy. 23:30 Of course we need charity and love 23:32 your enemies, and I'm wondering if 23:35 our calling as Christians is to preach 23:37 the Gospel of his nation, kinder, tongue 23:40 and people. To preach this Gospel of Kingdom 23:43 and then Christ will return. How did you 23:45 preach the gospel to someone that you 23:47 regard as an enemy? What do we say 23:49 Jesus loves you but I hate you, 23:52 and how does afraid of you I don't wanna 23:54 have anything to do with you, you're my 23:55 enemy but know that Jesus loves you. 23:58 Yeah. How does that work? No. And I think 24:01 this is the genius again back to our 24:03 principle of operation in certainly 24:05 in the United State separation 24:06 of church and state and respect for 24:08 all faiths that creates an environment for 24:11 true witness we have the true faith, 24:14 Islam believes that fine. And we need 24:18 to allow that groups believe that they are 24:20 the absolute true only faith but we can get, 24:22 if we get rid of this amenity by creating, 24:27 I hate to use it because this when we 24:28 use with the faith based initiative even 24:30 playing field which is that they're all away 24:32 from political power they all have the 24:34 rights and encourage free dialog and have 24:37 respect, surely this is really the basis 24:40 of a true dialog and allowing people 24:42 to freedom that we would want for 24:44 ourselves. It's the basic promise 24:45 of the American Republic is that 24:47 all people of all religions are free to 24:50 live together in peace as long as 24:53 you know we don't hurt each other we can 24:54 believe what we wanna believe we can 24:56 worship our own faith and the state is stays 24:59 out of it. Yeah. And, if you really look 25:02 at what happened since 9/11 even though 25:05 Liberty Magazine and I know and some of 25:07 your actions we've had to defend against 25:09 individual provocative acts against Muslim 25:13 and Islamic community. Curiously with 25:18 the sort of tension there's never been 25:20 more of an open interest in Islam, 25:24 more people are converting to Islam so 25:27 the good aspects of this open society 25:30 are working in the favor even 25:32 of a religion that I think has something 25:34 to be a little embarrassed about 25:35 by some of its adherence. We can't 25:37 leave this topic Lincoln without 25:39 observing that the extent to which 25:43 Christians in America have advocated 25:45 that this is a Christian nation has 25:47 actually undermined the ability 25:50 to approach, it's provoke some of the 25:51 responses, but it's undermined the 25:53 ability to preach the Gospel in 25:55 the Islamic world. Yes it's true. Because 25:57 American military intervention in Iraq, 26:01 in Afghanistan is thought of as a 26:04 Christian invasion. It's played in the 26:06 elder crusade mentality. And if we 26:08 take seriously the commission to preach 26:12 the Gospel to all the world and to be 26:15 able to show the love of Christ in the 26:17 Muslim world, American militarism 26:20 undermines because it's associated 26:22 with Christianity that there's this 26:24 war between Christianity and Islam 26:27 and the only way to overcome that 26:29 frankly is for Christianity to be 26:33 Christian, to lover our enemies to live 26:36 the gospel when it comes to Islam 26:38 and then only then may we preach the gospel. 26:44 Fundamentalist Christianity in the 26:46 United States has some interesting 26:47 subsets. One of those is a group called the 26:52 Christian Reconstructionists. 26:54 Basically their aim is to replace present 26:58 laws in the United States with the new 27:00 construct from the Old Testament. 27:03 The literal punishment for things 27:05 like Sabbath breaking, it's for them 27:07 would be Sunday keeping or breaking 27:09 of the Sunday for adultery, 27:11 homosexuality would be mandatory. 27:14 It's hard to believe but this group 27:17 actually are working towards such an end. 27:19 In a recent concession one of their leaders 27:21 said that they had rethought part of 27:24 the prescription on this for homosexuals 27:26 and they would give them a six month 27:28 cooling off period. This is a rough analog 27:31 to what we see in other parts of the world 27:34 in the Islamic world with Sharia law. 27:38 It's not really valid to debate the validity 27:42 of such laws, it's enough to recognize 27:45 that whatever the religious persuasion 27:47 to bring whole sale such a legal construct 27:50 into the modern world into replace civil 27:53 laws is dangerous for the extreme. 27:56 Never to be recommended to 27:57 any modern society. For Liberty 28:00 Insider this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17