Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a
program that brings you
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up to date news,
views and information and
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discussion on
religious liberty events.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
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editor of Liberty
Magazine and my guest
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on the program is
attorney Allen Reinach.
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Thanks Allen, it's
good to have you on
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the program. This
is not the first time,
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you've been on in the
past and we're planning
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on doing a number of
filmings of you with us
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at the moment. I would like to
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ask you a
question, Reinach is a Jewish
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name I think. It
is. But let's talk about
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something that is
concerning the whole
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world, but Jews
have a little different
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take on Islam, or
the Islamic world.
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And we'll relate it
to religious freedom.
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You and I working
for religious liberty
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which is at root the
right for all people,
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doesn't matter
what faith or no faith
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to believe or
disbelieve anything.
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Right. That's an
accepted thing for any
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discussion we
have, but when we look
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at the world today the religious
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and political
world we see that Islam
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is certainly in the
headlines and arguably
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is resurgent or
in an aggressive way
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through some of
the immigrants to
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different
countries, to Europe and so on.
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They're arguing
that they should have
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certain rights to go
beyond just the right
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to practice their
faith, they in essence
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want to force it on a society
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where they are,
you know what do we do
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with this like Sharia law,
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is Sharia law for
the United States.
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First let me say
in the United States
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whether we grant
religious freedom from
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Muslims, is really
kind of the bellwether
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the so called
canary in the coal mine
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of whether
there's religious freedom
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in the United
States. And I think
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Americans
commitment to religious freedom
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is really
wavering. And we see that
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in political
battles all not just in
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New York City but
all over the country
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over whether
we'll permit mosques
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to be built and just
in this last election
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cycle 70 percent of the people
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in Oklahoma voted
for a ballot initiative
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that would
prohibit the use of Sharia
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or International
law in deciding cases
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in the Oklahoma
courts. Now let's go
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a little further why in Oklahoma
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which does strike me as a,
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a Muslim hot
bed, no. Why was there
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even suggested in
that area that they
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would go on
Sharia law. Well look
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I think that
culturally you know within
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the Bible Belt there
is this, there is this
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tremendous
animosity, the sense that
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equates American
interests and values
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and our war
against terrorism that
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somehow there's
this war between Islam
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and
Christianity. And so Christians
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are at war with
Islam and so we want to
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fight against Islam,
exactly. And to insist,
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you know there's been
discussion for example
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in England, you're
from a Commonwealth
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country as to the
relevance of Sharia law
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and whether courts
will respect some of the
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legal rights
and obligations, no,
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it was, that's
coming up in England
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and most
specifically in the London area
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because there's a
huge number of Islamic
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immigrants and
some of the more radical
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mosques that are well attended,
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and they've been
implicated in terrorist
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actions are right
in their midst, and so
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there's a social pressure
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that they are trying
to fend off or sometimes
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even to denature
this new aggression by,
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you know well you
can have Sharia law
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in your community.
Maybe for our viewers
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and it just
occurred to me we might be
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making an
assumption that they know
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what Sharia law
is? Well I'm sure that
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I don't really know
entirely what it is.
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You know I imagine
that it is based on a
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long tradition of
interpreting the Quran
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Like we have in
Judaism where the rabbis
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have interpreted
the Torah over the
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centuries and
have developed a body
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of law and added to
it. Isn't that true that
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some of the, the
Rabbinic laws really
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are not
specifically stated in the Torah
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but they've come
about sort of, they thought
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they saw a
principle and then added to a
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particular
requirement so on then that
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became
tradition. Well, you know,
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when the old, that's
certainly the case with
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Sharia law. The
old saying is you have
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two Jewish you
have five opinions.
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So you know if you,
the orthodox will insist
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that the entire
body was either given
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directly to Moses
in writing or orally
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and it all goes back
of course there are other
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brands of Judaism
that take different
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perspectives on
how much really was
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given and how much was added or
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interpreted over
the years. That's sure,
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it's certainly I
think fair to say that
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Sharia law is
not narrowly speaking
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only their requirements
that are in the Quran.
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This is an accretion
of lifestyle requirements
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in Islamic communities
through the centuries
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that have become
cultural that, 'cause
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in Islamic
society there's never any
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distinction between
the religious viewpoint
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and how the society run so that,
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that whole
economy that legal system
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because that was
the only legal system,
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right, was
religion executed that how
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legal system has
become the Sharia system
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and not all Muslims
in all countries fully
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follower. It's sort of like the
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ultra-Orthodox
Jewish community demanding
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that they apply
their laws on all Jews.
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So I think we
need to point out that
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probably, a goodly
percentage of Muslims
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around the world are
at least uncomfortable
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to have Sharia law
as the major law applied
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to them, but now in
the aftermath of 9/11
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when the West
clearly is feeling edgy.
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I think there,
there's a pressure there
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maybe sort of
give away a little bit
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and we can placate
them and I think it's a
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legal mistake and I
think it's a cultural
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mistake and it's a
religious mistake to
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allow Sharia law.
Well I think that it's
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important to make distinctions,
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to say we're going
to allow it in general
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sounds you know
over the top, it sounds
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unreasonable.
What one federal judge
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did in Oklahoma
when one of the Muslim
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leaders challenged
the initiative in court,
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he found that he
violated the first
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amendment that it
essentially sent a
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clear signal that
Muslims were second
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class citizens that
they were unwelcome,
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he that would
interfere specifically for
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example with the provisions of
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plaintiffs will
upon death and the
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application of it
because he had invoked
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all kinds of provisions
of Sharia law, terms of
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the disposition
of property. I'm not
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convinced without going further,
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we have, but is
that a legal problem,
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it will only be a
problem, you can say
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whatever you want in the world.
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Sharia law or other
laws that will stand
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as your laws will
on testament, unless
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it's specifically
count as a law of the land
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right, so Sharia law is that,
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it's what it is. What
I'm saying is the judge
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says that to, unless
it's required legally.
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The judge found that
the ballot initiative
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that said, you
know, we will never look
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the irony, we'll
look at Sharia law
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said that was a
violation of the first
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amendment it was discriminatory
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that would have the
effect of infringing on
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the religious
freedom. The decision
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does not say then
that we should permit
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Sharia law lock,
stock, and barrel.
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But take for
example something out
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of the context of
Jewish law with which
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I'm a little bit
more familiar. If you go
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to the super
market even in the most
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non-Jewish areas,
you will find a symbol;
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it's a little U for
example indicating that
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a product is
kosher. Well who, the state
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does actually have to
regulate basic you now
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truths and
advertising, health and safety,
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you know there are
religious standards
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of what the Rabbis
must do in order for
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something to be
kosher, people have a
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right if you're
kosher. You have a right to
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know that if
you're buying kosher food
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it really is
kosher and so the state
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does, and I'm
presuming there are similar
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requirements on
Halal foods right.
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So what I'm saying
is you know it's not
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so as simple as
saying oh we don't want
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Sharia law. You
know, no we don't
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want the
government somehow to just
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endorse Jewish law
and bring Jewish law
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into our secular
legal system but at the
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same token Orthodox-Jews
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or observant
Jews who want to buy
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kosher food have a right to know
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that the food that
they're buying it's
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labeled Kosher is in
fact Kosher. Of course.
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So it raises
problems. That's what on that,
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on the example you get it right,
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you know Halal
food that's acceptable
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to Muslims. I'm
presuming since it's
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in the food area,
FDA, it was the Food
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and Drug Administration, aha,
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clearly must
monitor that, and that's
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reasonable. But
that's not really the same
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as general law for
a country that would
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be replaced by
another whole system.
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Well you know, but
I agree, this is where
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I think you know
it's easy we have this
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sort of negative
attitude for Sharia law.
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Well take marriage for example;
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Sharia law in some
countries prohibits
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polygamy. According
what has been reading
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about this Oklahoma
case there are those
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who insist that
in America Sharia law
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requires
compliance with the laws
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of the land and
does not permit polygamy
00:10:40.25\00:10:43.46
in the United
States. So, you know if
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we're afraid that
somehow by accepting
00:10:47.69\00:10:50.96
Sharia law
we're going to have to
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tolerate polygamy
in the United States.
00:10:52.94\00:10:55.75
I think that's probably wrong.
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Why? Well for
starters, now what you're
00:11:01.49\00:11:06.29
really saying
and what I, this is
00:11:06.30\00:11:07.74
what I'm getting it
I think we have a law,
00:11:07.75\00:11:10.39
for any country
has laws and whether
00:11:10.40\00:11:12.69
it's Sharia or Orthodox Judaism,
00:11:12.70\00:11:16.50
if it can fit within
the overall constructs
00:11:17.49\00:11:20.54
of whatever that
legal system is fine.
00:11:20.55\00:11:22.70
Islam is, it
doesn't break the law
00:11:22.71\00:11:23.99
but that is not the
same as it replacing
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or superseding
of that other law.
00:11:26.54\00:11:27.92
we have a, where
we have the separation
00:11:27.93\00:11:31.77
of church and
state and free exercise
00:11:31.78\00:11:33.40
of religion,
there is in essence no,
00:11:33.41\00:11:35.35
there should be no
conflict between law
00:11:36.29\00:11:39.45
in the sense of
religious law of Sharia
00:11:39.46\00:11:41.57
or otherwise,
operating within people's
00:11:41.58\00:11:45.77
private lives and
their religious community
00:11:45.78\00:11:47.36
until it counts an
overall civil law. And
00:11:47.37\00:11:50.70
that's where the
punch comes. Two points.
00:11:50.71\00:11:53.89
We have a long standing premise
00:11:53.90\00:11:55.83
here that we apply
neutral principles of
00:11:55.84\00:11:58.74
law when it
comes to the religious
00:11:58.75\00:12:00.89
community. We
applied secular principles of
00:12:00.90\00:12:03.94
law that's the
first thing. The second
00:12:03.95\00:12:05.98
thing is since the
Peyote case in 1990
00:12:05.99\00:12:09.50
we don't have too much religious
00:12:09.51\00:12:12.15
freedom in
America we have far too
00:12:12.16\00:12:14.54
little protection
for religious freedom
00:12:14.55\00:12:16.62
in America. And the
hostility, the hostility
00:12:16.63\00:12:20.75
towards Muslims
in America is only
00:12:20.76\00:12:23.45
threatening to
reduce even further
00:12:23.46\00:12:25.81
whatever religious
freedom, that the rest
00:12:25.82\00:12:27.98
of us enjoy. Yeah.
The Peyote case was,
00:12:27.99\00:12:31.63
this was
religious ceremonies and was
00:12:31.64\00:12:34.60
the sweat
lodges, where was, we use
00:12:34.61\00:12:36.34
the Peyote in a
religious ceremony
00:12:36.35\00:12:38.53
and we might not
agree with it on with our
00:12:38.54\00:12:43.53
drug laws but it was from time
00:12:43.54\00:12:45.80
and memorial this was
part of their religious
00:12:45.81\00:12:47.63
ceremony more
ritual than experimental
00:12:47.64\00:12:52.04
and squashing that it really
00:12:52.86\00:12:54.93
had implications for religious
00:12:54.94\00:12:56.34
practice didn't it, for all
00:12:56.35\00:12:57.59
religious
practice. It demolished the
00:12:57.60\00:12:58.73
free exercise
clause. Well we back after a
00:12:58.74\00:13:01.46
break to
continue this discussion.
00:13:01.47\00:13:03.35
One-hundred years, a long time
00:13:14.93\00:13:17.59
to do anything
much less publish a
00:13:17.60\00:13:19.65
magazine, but this year Liberty,
00:13:19.66\00:13:22.31
the Seventh-Day Adventist voice
00:13:22.32\00:13:24.15
of religious freedom, celebrates
00:13:24.16\00:13:25.95
one hundred years
of doing what it does
00:13:25.96\00:13:28.26
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00:13:28.27\00:13:30.60
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00:13:30.61\00:13:33.06
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00:13:33.07\00:13:34.71
Issue after issue.
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00:13:35.19\00:13:37.93
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00:13:37.94\00:13:40.02
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00:13:40.03\00:13:41.23
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00:13:41.24\00:13:42.73
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00:13:42.74\00:13:44.78
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00:13:45.18\00:13:46.16
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00:13:46.47\00:13:48.76
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00:13:48.77\00:13:51.11
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00:13:51.12\00:13:52.78
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00:13:52.79\00:13:55.28
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00:13:55.95\00:13:59.16
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00:13:59.17\00:14:01.30
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00:14:01.31\00:14:03.12
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00:14:03.13\00:14:05.57
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00:14:05.58\00:14:07.95
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00:14:07.96\00:14:10.25
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00:14:13.48\00:14:15.01
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00:14:15.02\00:14:16.94
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00:14:16.95\00:14:18.97
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00:14:18.98\00:14:20.70
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00:14:20.71\00:14:22.88
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00:14:22.89\00:14:25.56
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00:14:25.57\00:14:27.59
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00:14:27.60\00:14:29.63
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00:14:29.64\00:14:31.76
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00:14:31.77\00:14:34.49
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00:14:34.50\00:14:37.00
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00:14:37.01\00:14:39.37
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00:14:39.38\00:14:41.57
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00:14:45.32\00:14:47.56
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00:14:51.08\00:14:52.75
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00:14:52.76\00:14:55.12
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00:14:55.13\00:14:58.01
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00:14:58.02\00:14:59.74
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00:14:59.75\00:15:02.47
Welcome back to
The Liberty Insider.
00:15:12.35\00:15:14.08
Before the break I
was talking with the
00:15:14.09\00:15:15.84
attorney Allen Reinach about
00:15:15.85\00:15:17.74
Sharia law. Now there are many
00:15:17.75\00:15:20.98
ramifications
internationally of course
00:15:20.99\00:15:23.25
it's quite a
political issue but even within
00:15:23.26\00:15:25.47
the United States and their
00:15:25.48\00:15:27.10
predominantly Western, perhaps
00:15:27.11\00:15:31.11
predominantly Christian culture
00:15:31.12\00:15:32.69
there are some pressures
00:15:32.70\00:15:34.43
that are
perceived perhaps to adult
00:15:34.44\00:15:36.28
some elements of Sharia law
00:15:36.29\00:15:37.83
in this community.
But let's be specific
00:15:37.84\00:15:41.36
Lincoln. For example supposing
00:15:41.37\00:15:44.74
here in America
a Muslim daughter
00:15:44.75\00:15:50.06
converts to Christianity and
00:15:50.07\00:15:52.89
one of the immediate family says
00:15:52.90\00:15:55.19
well under our
law we have the right
00:15:55.20\00:15:57.62
to kill her. And so
they kill her and then
00:15:57.63\00:16:01.31
they get prosecuted for murder
00:16:01.32\00:16:03.17
and as a defense
the relative says well
00:16:03.18\00:16:06.96
but I was scaring,
this is not hypothetical
00:16:06.97\00:16:08.83
by the way, it has happened.
00:16:08.84\00:16:11.11
In the United
States it happened? Yes.
00:16:11.12\00:16:13.18
Well I don't know
the case but the reality
00:16:13.19\00:16:16.66
is and you know we
had a similar case,
00:16:16.67\00:16:19.57
I had a reporter
call me years ago
00:16:19.58\00:16:21.54
there was a
couple of gays that were
00:16:22.40\00:16:25.27
killed up in Northern California
00:16:25.28\00:16:27.25
by some skinhead types who were
00:16:28.16\00:16:30.40
proclaiming that
this, you know was their
00:16:30.41\00:16:32.62
religious
obligation that God taught
00:16:32.63\00:16:35.20
you know told them to go do this
00:16:35.21\00:16:37.77
and I said you
know religion is not a
00:16:37.78\00:16:39.91
defense to murder
and the same is gonna be
00:16:39.92\00:16:42.72
true in, you
can't claim somehow well
00:16:42.73\00:16:46.15
this is
authorized by Sharia law,
00:16:46.16\00:16:48.70
now we are going
to apply our laws
00:16:48.71\00:16:51.71
regarding criminal.
Clearly the prevailing
00:16:51.72\00:16:57.48
law is the law of
the land that we have
00:16:57.49\00:17:00.06
them with great arm in this case
00:17:00.07\00:17:01.70
the constitution
and the western law
00:17:01.71\00:17:04.20
that goes with
that. And so really
00:17:04.21\00:17:06.16
what you are trying to keep this
00:17:06.17\00:17:07.78
Sharia law is sort
of below that radar
00:17:07.79\00:17:10.10
whether in Islamic communities
00:17:10.61\00:17:12.18
but I don't
think that's really the
00:17:12.19\00:17:14.68
route of the
fear that some people
00:17:14.69\00:17:16.68
have that was
exemplified by this
00:17:16.69\00:17:18.27
preemptive and very prejudice
00:17:18.28\00:17:20.85
regulation that was put down,
00:17:23.92\00:17:25.66
all of this
request for a regulation.
00:17:25.67\00:17:27.61
Well one of the
things I think that
00:17:27.62\00:17:30.12
might be helpful
to our listeners.
00:17:30.13\00:17:31.96
The kind of area where we see
00:17:31.97\00:17:34.64
a lot of
conflicts currently over
00:17:34.65\00:17:37.69
how will our courts
interact with religious
00:17:38.94\00:17:41.86
law. One of the
perennial problems
00:17:41.87\00:17:44.66
has to do with
how church property
00:17:44.67\00:17:48.37
is helped. We were
talking in a different
00:17:48.38\00:17:51.90
discussion about
the issue of abortion.
00:17:51.91\00:17:54.42
Well between
abortion and homosexuality
00:17:54.43\00:17:57.00
denominations have been split.
00:17:57.01\00:17:59.33
So what happens
when the denomination
00:17:59.34\00:18:02.14
is more liberal
and a conservative
00:18:02.15\00:18:04.48
church says well we
don't agree with the
00:18:04.49\00:18:08.12
ordination of
gays as clergy and so
00:18:08.13\00:18:11.15
we're going to withdraw from the
00:18:11.16\00:18:12.89
denomination
and the denomination
00:18:12.90\00:18:15.21
says well you know
you can quit if you
00:18:15.22\00:18:18.29
want but we own the
title to the church.
00:18:18.30\00:18:21.52
And these disputes have happened
00:18:21.53\00:18:23.84
many of them and the
courts have to come in
00:18:23.85\00:18:26.35
and decide who owns the church.
00:18:26.36\00:18:28.48
Does the local
church community that's been
00:18:28.49\00:18:31.07
worshiping there
own the property or does
00:18:31.08\00:18:33.70
the denomination
and it's been a very
00:18:33.71\00:18:36.71
difficult to hoe
for the secular courts
00:18:36.72\00:18:39.97
to you know they
don't want to get into the
00:18:39.98\00:18:42.23
business of
interpreting religious
00:18:42.24\00:18:44.31
law and making, interfering with
00:18:44.32\00:18:47.48
religious decisions and so what
00:18:47.49\00:18:49.54
they've developed
is this body of law
00:18:49.55\00:18:51.41
that says we have to look to
00:18:51.42\00:18:53.02
for example secular
principles of contract
00:18:53.03\00:18:56.25
law of property
rights to see you know
00:18:56.26\00:18:58.85
who owns the
church, they're not gonna
00:18:58.86\00:19:01.00
get into interpreting
00:19:01.01\00:19:02.73
religion. Not now essentially.
00:19:02.74\00:19:03.77
But remember we've been there;
00:19:03.78\00:19:04.85
the western world has been
00:19:04.86\00:19:06.07
there not the United States.
00:19:06.08\00:19:07.16
Alright. But this
is well established
00:19:07.17\00:19:10.04
an American law. In colonies
00:19:10.05\00:19:12.43
that was a little
bit of that went on.
00:19:12.44\00:19:13.93
And so I think
when we talk about
00:19:14.84\00:19:17.10
Sharia law or
indeed any religious law
00:19:17.11\00:19:19.79
or any religious
requirements or any,
00:19:19.80\00:19:23.04
the rules of
any particular sect.
00:19:23.05\00:19:25.20
if you grant
that the power of law
00:19:25.73\00:19:27.87
even of all of
the adherence of that
00:19:27.88\00:19:30.17
particular
faith there's gonna be
00:19:30.18\00:19:31.98
prejudice. Like
when the Roman Catholic
00:19:31.99\00:19:34.72
Church had the
year of the state in the
00:19:34.73\00:19:37.89
old world that
meant the descendants
00:19:37.90\00:19:40.17
within their own church could be
00:19:40.18\00:19:41.98
punished with the power of law
00:19:41.99\00:19:43.43
and Sharia law
would be no different
00:19:43.44\00:19:45.17
I think people are
missing part of the
00:19:45.18\00:19:47.77
issue with the
discussion of Sharia.
00:19:47.78\00:19:49.35
We see it
there's another religion
00:19:49.71\00:19:51.23
threatening
Christianity but I see
00:19:51.24\00:19:53.65
it if it were to
ever gain a foothold
00:19:53.66\00:19:56.82
in our culture I see it is used
00:19:58.40\00:20:00.35
prejudicially
against Muslims themselves.
00:20:00.36\00:20:02.67
Well because
they're not of one voice.
00:20:02.96\00:20:05.37
Sharia law is
determine by whatever
00:20:05.38\00:20:08.25
Mullah or Imam
chooses to speak to us.
00:20:08.26\00:20:10.64
Right. So let me
give you another spin
00:20:10.65\00:20:12.83
on this problem.
Because Christians,
00:20:12.84\00:20:15.85
conservative
Christians in America
00:20:15.86\00:20:18.36
have been some of the foremost
00:20:18.37\00:20:20.38
opponents of the
separation of church
00:20:20.39\00:20:23.01
and state. Right. And yet,
00:20:23.02\00:20:24.48
this is where he comes
home, exactly. And yet,
00:20:24.49\00:20:26.65
you know they are also opponents
00:20:27.75\00:20:30.22
of the
incorporation of Sharia law
00:20:30.23\00:20:33.15
in any sense.
It's the separation
00:20:33.16\00:20:35.70
of church and state
that is the ball work
00:20:35.71\00:20:38.65
against, it's the
protection against
00:20:38.66\00:20:41.94
the abusive incorporation
00:20:41.95\00:20:44.00
of Sharia law that there should
00:20:44.01\00:20:46.07
I mean if you want to understand
00:20:46.08\00:20:49.45
why we need separation of church
00:20:49.46\00:20:51.51
and state look at Iran. Look at
00:20:51.52\00:20:54.82
a country that
applies Sharia law.
00:20:54.83\00:20:57.07
That's the real
lesson is, yeah we need
00:20:57.08\00:21:00.14
to have the
government and the courts
00:21:00.15\00:21:02.06
remain fundamentally secular.
00:21:02.07\00:21:03.91
Are they're
gonna be problems with
00:21:04.46\00:21:05.78
that in terms of
not getting the respect
00:21:05.79\00:21:10.01
for religion and
the protection of
00:21:10.02\00:21:11.51
religious freedom,
yeah we've had those
00:21:11.52\00:21:13.56
problems but on
balance we definitely
00:21:13.57\00:21:16.41
need the
establishment clause protection
00:21:16.42\00:21:19.59
to keep the
church and state in their
00:21:19.60\00:21:22.44
separate fears.
During the break hours
00:21:22.45\00:21:26.05
reminding you, I
think what brought
00:21:26.06\00:21:28.30
Sharia law to
western attention was a
00:21:28.31\00:21:31.06
curious event,
I think about 20s,
00:21:31.07\00:21:33.63
maybe, times goes
by maybe 20, 25 years
00:21:33.64\00:21:35.97
ago Salman
Rushdie, an English Muslim
00:21:35.98\00:21:40.05
background
author but departed from
00:21:40.44\00:21:43.01
his faith wrote a
book, Satanic Verses,
00:21:43.02\00:21:45.29
I remember the
title and some imam swore
00:21:45.30\00:21:50.39
out a Fatwa,
which, what that amounts
00:21:50.40\00:21:53.41
to is here's a religious leader
00:21:53.42\00:21:55.10
up in front of
his constituency he
00:21:55.11\00:21:57.01
invokes the Quran,
he is a heretic insulter
00:21:57.02\00:22:00.43
of the faith. Recruiting people
00:22:00.44\00:22:03.38
to murder him. He
says you are there for
00:22:03.39\00:22:05.24
religiously free and
I encourage you to do
00:22:05.25\00:22:08.10
away with this prostate, right.
00:22:08.11\00:22:09.83
And Rushdie went into hiding for
00:22:09.84\00:22:11.23
about a decades
as is not remembered,
00:22:11.24\00:22:12.58
yeah. That shocked the western
00:22:12.59\00:22:14.54
world but that was
their first introduction
00:22:14.55\00:22:17.70
to it and people
should remember that,
00:22:17.71\00:22:19.50
they should remember
that we've seen grainy
00:22:19.51\00:22:23.08
footage from Saudi
Arabia or if not too
00:22:23.09\00:22:25.88
long ago if a
woman taken in adultery,
00:22:25.89\00:22:28.70
the man was lead
of with just a slap
00:22:30.01\00:22:31.43
on the wrist but
the woman taken in
00:22:31.44\00:22:32.83
adultery beheaded
in the public square.
00:22:32.84\00:22:36.57
That's not the sort
of accountability for
00:22:37.61\00:22:41.15
religious infractions
that whether it's Islam
00:22:41.16\00:22:43.34
or Christianity
whatever we want to
00:22:43.35\00:22:44.73
see, Right no
question. The institute in a
00:22:44.74\00:22:46.99
progressive civil
society. But there's
00:22:47.00\00:22:49.45
another issue here
Lincoln which is not
00:22:49.46\00:22:51.79
just how the state
is gonna deal with Islam
00:22:51.80\00:22:54.51
it's a theological
issue for Christians.
00:22:54.78\00:22:57.44
The question was
asked me at lunch after
00:22:57.76\00:23:00.23
church last week
isn' Islam at war,
00:23:00.24\00:23:04.54
Isn't Islam an
enemy of Christianity.
00:23:04.89\00:23:07.71
And I've given
some thought to that
00:23:08.20\00:23:09.66
question because
regardless of what
00:23:09.67\00:23:11.93
you think
American policy should be
00:23:11.94\00:23:13.98
in the Middle East
and in our, you know
00:23:13.99\00:23:17.09
war on terrorism as Christians.
00:23:17.10\00:23:19.77
Even assuming that
Islam is "an enemy."
00:23:20.78\00:23:24.95
What does Jesus
teach us should be
00:23:25.36\00:23:27.88
our attitude towards our enemy.
00:23:27.89\00:23:30.02
Of course we
need charity and love
00:23:30.03\00:23:32.87
your enemies,
and I'm wondering if
00:23:32.88\00:23:35.56
our calling as
Christians is to preach
00:23:35.57\00:23:37.73
the Gospel of his
nation, kinder, tongue
00:23:37.74\00:23:40.28
and people. To preach
this Gospel of Kingdom
00:23:40.29\00:23:42.99
and then Christ
will return. How did you
00:23:43.00\00:23:45.96
preach the gospel
to someone that you
00:23:45.97\00:23:47.79
regard as an
enemy? What do we say
00:23:47.80\00:23:49.66
Jesus loves you but I hate you,
00:23:49.67\00:23:52.41
and how does afraid
of you I don't wanna
00:23:52.42\00:23:54.00
have anything to
do with you, you're my
00:23:54.01\00:23:55.40
enemy but know
that Jesus loves you.
00:23:55.41\00:23:58.06
Yeah. How does that
work? No. And I think
00:23:58.07\00:24:01.38
this is the
genius again back to our
00:24:01.39\00:24:03.82
principle of
operation in certainly
00:24:03.83\00:24:05.59
in the United State separation
00:24:05.60\00:24:06.84
of church and
state and respect for
00:24:06.85\00:24:08.77
all faiths that
creates an environment for
00:24:08.78\00:24:11.52
true witness we
have the true faith,
00:24:11.53\00:24:14.75
Islam believes
that fine. And we need
00:24:14.76\00:24:18.39
to allow that groups
believe that they are
00:24:18.40\00:24:20.25
the absolute true
only faith but we can get,
00:24:20.26\00:24:22.83
if we get rid of
this amenity by creating,
00:24:22.84\00:24:25.24
I hate to use it
because this when we
00:24:27.12\00:24:28.28
use with the faith
based initiative even
00:24:28.29\00:24:30.23
playing field which
is that they're all away
00:24:30.24\00:24:32.69
from political
power they all have the
00:24:32.70\00:24:34.74
rights and
encourage free dialog and have
00:24:34.75\00:24:37.38
respect, surely
this is really the basis
00:24:37.39\00:24:40.44
of a true dialog
and allowing people
00:24:40.45\00:24:42.87
to freedom that
we would want for
00:24:42.88\00:24:44.13
ourselves. It's
the basic promise
00:24:44.14\00:24:45.83
of the American Republic is that
00:24:45.84\00:24:47.62
all people of all
religions are free to
00:24:47.63\00:24:50.55
live together
in peace as long as
00:24:50.56\00:24:52.99
you know we don't
hurt each other we can
00:24:53.00\00:24:54.77
believe what we
wanna believe we can
00:24:54.78\00:24:56.58
worship our own faith
and the state is stays
00:24:56.59\00:24:59.64
out of it. Yeah.
And, if you really look
00:24:59.65\00:25:02.55
at what happened
since 9/11 even though
00:25:02.56\00:25:04.83
Liberty Magazine
and I know and some of
00:25:05.79\00:25:07.61
your actions we've
had to defend against
00:25:07.62\00:25:09.84
individual
provocative acts against Muslim
00:25:09.85\00:25:13.31
and Islamic
community. Curiously with
00:25:13.32\00:25:18.18
the sort of
tension there's never been
00:25:18.19\00:25:20.14
more of an open
interest in Islam,
00:25:20.15\00:25:23.87
more people are
converting to Islam so
00:25:24.43\00:25:27.17
the good aspects
of this open society
00:25:27.93\00:25:30.73
are working in the favor even
00:25:30.74\00:25:32.43
of a religion that
I think has something
00:25:32.44\00:25:34.60
to be a little embarrassed about
00:25:34.61\00:25:35.87
by some of its
adherence. We can't
00:25:35.88\00:25:37.55
leave this topic Lincoln without
00:25:37.56\00:25:39.81
observing that
the extent to which
00:25:39.82\00:25:42.99
Christians in
America have advocated
00:25:43.00\00:25:45.46
that this is a
Christian nation has
00:25:45.47\00:25:47.41
actually undermined the ability
00:25:47.42\00:25:50.89
to approach, it's
provoke some of the
00:25:50.90\00:25:51.87
responses, but
it's undermined the
00:25:51.88\00:25:53.37
ability to preach the Gospel in
00:25:53.38\00:25:55.36
the Islamic world.
Yes it's true. Because
00:25:55.37\00:25:57.33
American military
intervention in Iraq,
00:25:57.34\00:26:00.97
in Afghanistan
is thought of as a
00:26:00.98\00:26:04.48
Christian
invasion. It's played in the
00:26:04.49\00:26:06.21
elder crusade
mentality. And if we
00:26:06.22\00:26:08.43
take seriously the
commission to preach
00:26:08.44\00:26:12.48
the Gospel to all
the world and to be
00:26:12.49\00:26:15.56
able to show the
love of Christ in the
00:26:15.57\00:26:17.74
Muslim world,
American militarism
00:26:17.75\00:26:20.44
undermines
because it's associated
00:26:20.86\00:26:22.82
with
Christianity that there's this
00:26:22.83\00:26:24.39
war between
Christianity and Islam
00:26:24.40\00:26:27.72
and the only
way to overcome that
00:26:27.73\00:26:29.75
frankly is for
Christianity to be
00:26:29.76\00:26:33.48
Christian, to
lover our enemies to live
00:26:33.49\00:26:36.59
the gospel when
it comes to Islam
00:26:36.60\00:26:38.69
and then only then
may we preach the gospel.
00:26:38.92\00:26:42.07
Fundamentalist
Christianity in the
00:26:44.93\00:26:46.37
United States
has some interesting
00:26:46.38\00:26:47.77
subsets. One of
those is a group called the
00:26:47.78\00:26:52.08
Christian Reconstructionists.
00:26:52.09\00:26:54.26
Basically their aim
is to replace present
00:26:54.86\00:26:57.89
laws in the United
States with the new
00:26:58.38\00:27:00.51
construct from
the Old Testament.
00:27:00.52\00:27:02.43
The literal
punishment for things
00:27:03.63\00:27:05.32
like Sabbath
breaking, it's for them
00:27:05.33\00:27:07.46
would be Sunday
keeping or breaking
00:27:07.47\00:27:09.84
of the Sunday for adultery,
00:27:09.85\00:27:11.90
homosexuality
would be mandatory.
00:27:11.91\00:27:14.53
It's hard to
believe but this group
00:27:14.54\00:27:17.06
actually are
working towards such an end.
00:27:17.07\00:27:19.17
In a recent
concession one of their leaders
00:27:19.71\00:27:21.82
said that they
had rethought part of
00:27:21.83\00:27:24.72
the prescription on
this for homosexuals
00:27:24.73\00:27:26.84
and they would
give them a six month
00:27:26.85\00:27:28.25
cooling off period.
This is a rough analog
00:27:28.26\00:27:31.94
to what we see in
other parts of the world
00:27:31.95\00:27:34.61
in the Islamic
world with Sharia law.
00:27:34.62\00:27:37.13
It's not really valid
to debate the validity
00:27:38.64\00:27:42.02
of such laws, it's
enough to recognize
00:27:42.03\00:27:44.62
that whatever the
religious persuasion
00:27:45.01\00:27:47.09
to bring whole sale
such a legal construct
00:27:47.10\00:27:50.44
into the modern
world into replace civil
00:27:50.45\00:27:53.36
laws is
dangerous for the extreme.
00:27:53.37\00:27:55.70
Never to be recommended to
00:27:56.35\00:27:57.80
any modern society. For Liberty
00:27:57.81\00:28:00.56
Insider this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:00.57\00:28:02.75