Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
that brings you up to
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date news and
discussion on Religious Liberty
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issues. My name is
Lincoln Steed, editor of
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Liberty Magazine, and
my guest on the program
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is attorney Allan
Reinach. Now, Allan for the,
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the information of
our viewers you are the
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public affairs and
Religious Liberty director for
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the Pacific Union of Seventh-day
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Adventist based in California.
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That's true, we
serve a five state western
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region including
California, which by itself
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would be the fifth
largest economy in the world.
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And the fifth healthiest,
we won't get into that.
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Well, only about 30
billion dollars in debt
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rate now. Let's talk a
little about law, we often
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have lawyers on this
program, but you know
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the lawyer of the
day. And I know you, you,
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and you have a lot
of very interesting
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opinions of thing,
things but many of our
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viewers probably
have listened to what we
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said about Religious
Liberty and we're always
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referencing the
constitution, but they may
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not really
understand how law works?
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I'm not sure I
understand, but I deal
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with lawyers a lot,
now. Well, that assumes
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that law works. Well
and, and that's really why
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I'm asking the
question. Clearly if you watch
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television nowadays with
all these hearings in the
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Supreme Court,
challenges of this not other.
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And, and, and, and
the average person is
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constantly deals with
the idea that this criminal
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you know is walking
the streets and is being
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locked away, this
is some miscarriage of
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justice here. They
start to wonder is our
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illegal system even
working. And the bigger
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question is, what
is the legal system,
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what is law? How
would you define law?
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You know, I think if
there is an illusion Lincoln;
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the illusion is that
somehow there are these
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objective principles
and the judges apply them
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in a consistent
and systematic way for
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reasonably
predictable outcomes. I was
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discussing a, a
Sabbath discrimination case,
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a religious discrimination
case with an attorney
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who had Adventist
truths and representing the,
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the employer. And we
were comparing notes,
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both of us as we
were discussing our
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respective views of
the case, strengths and
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weaknesses and what
his position was and what
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our position was and,
and looking to settle?
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He observed that the
courts are increasingly
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unpredictable.
Well, in my mind they're
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increasingly slanted
towards the side of, of
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large corporations
and companies, makes it
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harder for us when
we're representing individuals
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with religious
discrimination cases,
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but what we're
finding is that judges
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increasingly are
unpredictable and they
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are more and more
consistently getting the
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law wrong. There,
there is actually a body of
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objective principles,
but whether human beings
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who are judges are
going to apply them well is
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another matter
entirely. But if the law is
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so cut and dried,
why do we need judges?
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Well, first of all the
law is not that cut and
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dried all the time.
That's right. But the other
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thing is that you
know in most cases,
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if it's gonna go to
trial, it's because there is a
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sharp dispute over
what happened and there's
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interpretations of
motives of facts. You know,
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there's two sides
to the story. Yeah at,
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at the moment as
we're filming this Rahm
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Emanuel is, is arguing
his case that he should
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be eligible to, to, to
run from there to Chicago
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and it is so
centering on whether he is a
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resident. Now, there
is a statue that's very
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applying that you
have to be a resident,
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but determining
whether or not he is, is
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quite an argument.
And it seems to me even
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very clear statues
like the constitution,
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right? That's as
plain as the nose on your
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face. There should be
no restriction on, on, on
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the practice of
religion, the State shouldn't
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be involved or
shouldn't make laws regarding
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religious establishment,
but yet when it comes
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to the real world all
sorts of ins and outs,
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but I want to go a
little bit further and, and
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I'll let say a
revolutionary statement
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that seems to me
that the law while most
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people think so is
really not concerned with
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morality, or not
morality in the sense that
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that, that we
look at, it's concerned
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with rights and obligations.
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That's a tough
question, but I think that
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historically law and
morality have closely
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tracked with one and
another. Yes. And, and,
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and especially,
'cause I wanted to draw into,
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in the, in the
western, in the Western Legal
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Concept it's, it's very
clear that when it comes
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for example to family
matters to, to marriage
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until the last
generation for example,
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family law reflected
the morality of, you have
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to be a wrong doer
in order to justify
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divorcing someone,
there was no such thing
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as no fault divorce.
Divorce was morally wrong
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and you're only
justified if you had certain
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specified grounds
and you had to be able to
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prove them, which
made it a field day for
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private investigators
trying to prove that
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there was adultery
for example. Yeah, you've
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picked on a, on a
case that in some ways
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under gets my
assumption, but I, I, I
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would comeback and I
think back in the Middle
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Ages marriage law was
picked up, attitudes from
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the close
affinity with, with church,
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the church and the State.
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Oh! I think in the
Middle Ages marriage law
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was predominantly
governed by the Church.
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That's the point.
And, and if the church was
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separated we've kept
the assumptions of the
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church that placed in
the law, but it seems to
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me going back, let's just go
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back to 12, 1215 I think.
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Well, that your
history, not mine.
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You're from the Commonwealth.
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Oh! I know, Justice
is clear on the Supreme
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Court is inclined
to dismiss English
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Commonwealth and
all that sort of stuff,
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actually in reality, I
did research in English
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common law, when I
was a law student for a
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Supreme Court case. So
it is actually relevant
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to American law. But
you know and that was the,
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the, the signing of
the Magna Carta, which was
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a big chart of rights,
but till that point the,
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or of human rights
really against arbitrary
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arrest and, and
imprisonment, but
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before then most of
the lawyers I see it in,
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in the Medieval
Times was really just to
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enunciate the, the
right of the landholder and
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the obligations of his
tenants and his, as it was
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subservient to him was,
it really to, to back to
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something that is
more American oriented,
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that was very much
concerned with property
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and the obligations
that that resided on that.
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And, and I think
myself that that this is,
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the elephant in
the room even in the US
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Constitution that its
principles derived from a
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theory that had to
concern more property
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and the rights of
property and, and the
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rights of power. And
unless the human rights
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that we know
which I think derive
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more directly from religion.
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Well, and you know it's
interesting here Lincoln
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after the collapse
of the Soviet Union,
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there was a major
export from especially
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the United States to
Eastern Europe to the
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Former Soviet Bloc
Nations of lawyers.
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And the export was
that in order to participate
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in the Modern World,
in the Modern Economy
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you
have-to-have the rule of law.
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Businesses can't do
business, if there is no
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predictability of the
enforcement of contracts
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and so setting up a
legal system with judges
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who are
independent with some sort of
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predictability with
rule of law this was deemed
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essential to
integrating the Eastern European
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nations into the Modern Economy.
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The illusion of
course is that judges in any
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society will in
fact apply these contract
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principles in some
sort of consistent or
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predictable way.
And you know the, the
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difficulty here
frankly is, we want judges or
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human beings and they
tend to look at a case
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and they have a gut
feeling you know who is
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right and who is
wrong and they want to
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decide on the bases of
what they think is right
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and wrong in that
case. And lo and behold
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surprise, surprise
they manage to interpret
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the law in such a
way as to determine the
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outcome that they think
is just, you rarely ever
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here a judge in a
written opinion say,
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what we think the
first party should win,
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but the law requires
that I rule in favor of the
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second party and I
think the law should be
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changed, it happens,
it happens very rarely,
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for the most
part there is enough
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flexibility in
the law that the judge
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can figure it
out anyway he wants.
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I think most of us
suspect that, it goes
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back to what you say
is a little bit like when
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you're in High
School, you have to write an
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essay of deductive
reasoning, but you've
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decided ahead of
time, what you're conclusion
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is gonna be, so you
massively evidence to, to
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support it, which is
not really an open academic.
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But the, but the
problem you know,
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taking this beyond
law in our, in American
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culture today, you
have Fox News on the
00:10:09.81\00:10:12.53
one hand, you've
got MSNBC or, or the
00:10:12.54\00:10:15.19
Liberal Press on
the other hand and they
00:10:15.20\00:10:17.95
each martial a
completely different set
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of facts about the
same stories to come to
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such diametrically
opposed interpretations
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of the story that
listeners to each one
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people in each
camp can hardly even
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communicate
anymore, they can't even
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have a decent argument because
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they're so worlds apart.
00:10:37.70\00:10:39.07
What I'm, there's
several points that I'm
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trying to make, but I
really think when, we,
00:10:42.35\00:10:44.60
we're dealing with,
with Religious Rights,
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very important point
of Civil Rights and, and
00:10:49.24\00:10:51.38
when Seventh-day
Adventists and others
00:10:51.39\00:10:52.88
who have a view
of perhaps a conflict
00:10:52.89\00:10:56.47
between certain
states and certain,
00:10:56.48\00:10:58.58
several views in
our religious practice,
00:10:58.82\00:11:01.03
we need to
recognize that as much as hard
00:11:01.31\00:11:03.50
and fast law there
is a philosophy at work.
00:11:03.51\00:11:05.83
And it might be that
the judge is colored by
00:11:06.44\00:11:10.62
a changing view of
what it is to even have a
00:11:11.23\00:11:14.17
religious faith, a
changing view of what it
00:11:14.18\00:11:16.60
might even, right, be
for you, your right to,
00:11:16.61\00:11:19.06
to stand on your, on your own.
00:11:19.07\00:11:20.54
There is, there is
no question that in an
00:11:21.02\00:11:23.02
increasingly secular
society our judges have
00:11:23.03\00:11:28.20
much less
appreciation, understanding or
00:11:28.28\00:11:30.95
respect for
religious faith and Religious
00:11:30.96\00:11:34.81
Freedom does not
fair well in our secular
00:11:34.82\00:11:38.01
courts today. And
we're gonna, I know
00:11:38.02\00:11:39.77
today we're gonna
discuss programs that
00:11:39.78\00:11:43.06
we'll record today
that might be seen on
00:11:43.07\00:11:45.21
another occasion.
Yeah, and this is a very
00:11:45.22\00:11:48.03
important point
because the constitution
00:11:48.04\00:11:50.57
the United States
and, and, and most laws
00:11:50.58\00:11:53.07
in other
countries are not changed
00:11:53.08\00:11:54.51
momentarily, I mean
the, the, especially
00:11:54.52\00:11:57.01
constitution like this,
the US one's with a very
00:11:57.02\00:12:00.60
few amendments,
amendments was gonna
00:12:00.61\00:12:05.13
say endorsements,
yeah, is, is unchanged.
00:12:05.14\00:12:07.74
Very difficult
to do an amendment.
00:12:07.75\00:12:09.29
But, how it's
perceived, how it's executed
00:12:09.40\00:12:12.66
changes radically.
Sure. And I know that
00:12:13.23\00:12:16.63
there is a very
cryptic statement that Ellen
00:12:16.64\00:12:19.91
White, 100 and some
years ago writing to
00:12:19.92\00:12:22.26
Seventh-day Adventists
about fulfilling Bible
00:12:22.27\00:12:24.99
prophecy in the
United States you said the
00:12:25.00\00:12:26.76
time probably will
come when the United States
00:12:26.77\00:12:30.11
may turn its back
on every principle.
00:12:30.12\00:12:32.30
And I don't see the, to
fulfill such a statement.
00:12:33.06\00:12:36.08
Every principle of the
constitution right, right,
00:12:36.09\00:12:38.05
it's not necessary
to formally put the
00:12:38.82\00:12:40.97
constitution away,
it's better to see it as
00:12:40.98\00:12:43.93
what we're living
through where it shifts
00:12:43.94\00:12:45.77
beneath, well,
the, the, the words mean
00:12:45.78\00:12:49.06
what they always
meant, but the way that
00:12:49.07\00:12:51.29
they're executed in
the assumptions that now
00:12:51.30\00:12:53.13
inform the application, okay,
00:12:53.14\00:12:54.38
are radically
different. So and, and I think
00:12:54.39\00:12:56.89
that we need to
understand you know when,
00:12:56.90\00:12:59.42
when Ellen White
talks about every principle
00:12:59.67\00:13:02.21
that we should care
about all of the principles
00:13:02.22\00:13:05.91
of the constitution.
You know, as we sit here
00:13:05.92\00:13:08.44
today it's in the
midst of, of this amazing
00:13:08.45\00:13:13.24
conflict over the
WikiLeaks leaks of all
00:13:13.67\00:13:16.80
of that and there
are very profound first
00:13:16.81\00:13:19.54
amendment free
speech. I glad you brought
00:13:19.55\00:13:21.17
that up, and
freedom of press issues are
00:13:21.18\00:13:24.34
you know, whatever
you think of WikiLeaks
00:13:24.35\00:13:26.69
and, and what
they've done and the, the
00:13:26.83\00:13:29.12
implications of it,
which you know is not really
00:13:29.13\00:13:32.24
our area of
expertise, but clearly there
00:13:32.25\00:13:35.65
are first amendment,
00:13:35.66\00:13:36.70
first amendment
they're concerns.
00:13:36.71\00:13:38.66
We'll be back after
the break to continue
00:13:39.28\00:13:41.18
this discussion.
There is a lot talk about on
00:13:41.19\00:13:43.66
law, how it changes
and how it's applied?
00:13:43.67\00:13:45.85
One hundred years, a
long time to do anything
00:13:54.89\00:13:58.47
much less publish a magazine,
00:13:58.82\00:14:00.39
but this year
Liberty, the Seventh-day
00:14:00.73\00:14:03.36
Adventist voice
of religious freedom,
00:14:03.37\00:14:05.17
celebrates one
hundred years of doing what
00:14:05.31\00:14:07.86
it does best,
collecting, analyzing,
00:14:07.87\00:14:10.60
and reporting the
ebb and flow of religious
00:14:10.85\00:14:13.07
expression around the
world. Issue after issues,
00:14:13.08\00:14:16.56
Liberty has taken on
the tough assignments,
00:14:17.00\00:14:19.12
tracking down
threats to religious freedom
00:14:19.38\00:14:21.29
and exposing the
work of the devil in every
00:14:21.30\00:14:23.71
corner of the
globe. Governmental
00:14:23.72\00:14:25.55
interference, personal attacks,
00:14:25.56\00:14:27.62
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom
00:14:28.01\00:14:30.11
issues sequestered
within the church community
00:14:30.12\00:14:32.18
itself have been
clearly and honestly exposed.
00:14:32.19\00:14:35.29
Liberty exists for
one purpose to help God's
00:14:36.05\00:14:39.08
people maintain that
all the important separation
00:14:39.09\00:14:41.96
of Church and
State, while recognizing
00:14:41.97\00:14:44.27
the dangers
inherent in such a struggle.
00:14:44.28\00:14:46.71
During the past
century, Liberty has experienced
00:14:47.34\00:14:49.74
challenges of its own,
but it remains on the job.
00:14:49.88\00:14:53.06
Thanks to the
inspired leadership of a long
00:14:53.48\00:14:55.71
line of dedicated
Adventist Editors,
00:14:55.72\00:14:57.59
three of whom
represent almost half of the
00:14:57.87\00:14:59.63
publications
existence and the foresight
00:14:59.64\00:15:02.08
of a little
woman from New England.
00:15:02.09\00:15:04.08
One hundred years of struggle,
00:15:04.55\00:15:06.31
one hundred years of victories,
00:15:06.74\00:15:08.54
religious freedom
isn't just about political
00:15:08.87\00:15:11.14
machines and
cultural prejudices.
00:15:11.15\00:15:13.27
It's about people
fighting for the right to serve
00:15:13.67\00:15:17.02
the God they love
as their hearts and the
00:15:17.03\00:15:19.75
Holy Spirit dictate.
Thanks to the prayers
00:15:19.76\00:15:22.92
and generous support
of Seventh-day Adventists
00:15:22.93\00:15:25.23
everywhere.
Liberty will continue to
00:15:25.24\00:15:27.51
accomplish its
work of providing timely
00:15:27.52\00:15:29.55
information,
spirit filled inspiration,
00:15:29.56\00:15:31.82
and heaven sent
encouragement to all
00:15:32.10\00:15:34.47
who long to live
and work in a world
00:15:34.60\00:15:37.53
bound together
by the God ordained
00:15:37.72\00:15:39.82
bonds of religious freedom.
00:15:39.83\00:15:42.36
Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider,
00:15:51.75\00:15:53.47
before the break I
was talking with attorney
00:15:53.48\00:15:56.20
Allan Reinach about
the law not everybody
00:15:56.21\00:16:00.23
is quite clear and what
the law is and, and, and
00:16:00.24\00:16:02.57
you've explain how,
how the practice of Law
00:16:02.58\00:16:06.23
is, almost coming to
disrepute today with, with
00:16:06.24\00:16:08.55
many people today
because they see judges
00:16:08.56\00:16:10.42
suede by political
opinion, by their own
00:16:10.43\00:16:12.90
bias, this
uncertainty by many people
00:16:12.91\00:16:17.59
about what the law even says.
00:16:17.60\00:16:19.30
But when it comes
to the constitution we
00:16:19.44\00:16:21.34
have this sort of
myth that there are these
00:16:21.35\00:16:24.46
principles set down
practically in stone like
00:16:24.86\00:16:27.59
the Ten
Commandments without the 10,
00:16:27.60\00:16:29.56
I'm glad you brought
that up, amendments of
00:16:29.76\00:16:31.05
the bill of rights
and, and, and so the, the
00:16:31.06\00:16:33.39
debate is well you
know, these judges who
00:16:33.40\00:16:35.69
want to keep reinterpreting and
00:16:35.70\00:16:37.28
reapplying them, you
know that's somehow not
00:16:37.29\00:16:41.42
right that there are
these principles that were
00:16:41.43\00:16:44.19
set down in stone
and we have to go back
00:16:44.49\00:16:46.69
and, and look at
exactly what they meant to
00:16:46.70\00:16:49.24
the Founding
Fathers. But of course society
00:16:49.25\00:16:52.07
has changed an awful
lot in two centuries and
00:16:52.08\00:16:55.62
to take principles of
free speech or Religious
00:16:55.90\00:16:58.40
Freedom from the
18th century and apply
00:16:58.41\00:17:02.72
them today, you
have to adapt them to the
00:17:02.73\00:17:06.16
circumstances of
the day. Yeah, now I
00:17:06.17\00:17:08.31
often in meetings
where I talk about
00:17:08.61\00:17:10.29
Religious Liberty I
point out the obvious to me,
00:17:10.30\00:17:12.36
but I know people
have never thought it like
00:17:12.37\00:17:13.94
this. I said the
constitution, U.S.
00:17:13.95\00:17:16.37
Constitution which we
deal with a lot in our,
00:17:16.38\00:17:19.37
in our geographical
circle of influence in the
00:17:20.13\00:17:22.69
United States, but
the U.S. Constitution is a
00:17:22.70\00:17:25.31
good document, a
very good lineage,
00:17:25.32\00:17:30.31
pedigree, but I said
remember it's a human
00:17:30.94\00:17:33.76
document, its not
Holy Written, right?
00:17:33.77\00:17:36.81
And, and I think
this is the conundrum that
00:17:38.04\00:17:39.88
many judges find
seeking social justice they're
00:17:39.89\00:17:42.24
trying to find as the,
as the conservatives say
00:17:42.25\00:17:45.22
you know, Justice
Scalia says, you know
00:17:45.23\00:17:48.80
it's a wonderful
day today what you write
00:17:48.81\00:17:50.44
will I find in the
Constitution. Well, he's
00:17:50.45\00:17:52.69
mocking it a little
bit, but there is an element
00:17:52.70\00:17:54.41
of truth in there,
isn't it? That that the
00:17:54.42\00:17:58.33
United States I
think has moved on to see
00:17:58.34\00:18:01.01
more-and-more that
there are inherent rights
00:18:01.02\00:18:03.37
for the individual
of late, I think we're
00:18:03.38\00:18:05.89
diminishing some of
those, but at the time of,
00:18:05.90\00:18:08.24
diminishing all of
them and much faster than
00:18:08.25\00:18:10.62
American's realized.
Right, but at the signing
00:18:10.63\00:18:12.58
of the, of the, of
the ratification of the
00:18:12.59\00:18:15.20
constitution there
was slavery, they really
00:18:15.21\00:18:18.52
didn't in a
practical way see human rights
00:18:18.53\00:18:20.72
as we see them
now, right, so the self
00:18:20.73\00:18:22.61
evident
regardless of the word said,
00:18:22.62\00:18:25.32
so we've, we've
moved on and I think some
00:18:25.57\00:18:29.41
Christian leaders
have, have clarified that
00:18:29.42\00:18:31.98
there's, there's been
charity applied in the,
00:18:31.99\00:18:34.11
in the execution of
the law, but we need to
00:18:35.23\00:18:37.51
realize that it's
the ebb and flow of human
00:18:37.52\00:18:39.73
opinion, it is not a
moral absolute that's, that's
00:18:39.74\00:18:42.88
guiding this and, and
that's why I think in a
00:18:42.89\00:18:45.25
society and I'm
sorry to carry on so long,
00:18:45.26\00:18:47.60
I think it's very
important for people of
00:18:47.89\00:18:49.64
faith, not to impose
their religion on, on, on
00:18:49.65\00:18:53.25
the law and the
government, but to be the
00:18:53.26\00:18:55.48
force that that
informs and, and, and clarifies
00:18:55.49\00:18:58.39
higher moral values
because I do not believe
00:18:58.40\00:19:01.00
that the law itself
will automatically do that.
00:19:01.23\00:19:03.50
Well, since you now
raised the subject of
00:19:03.63\00:19:06.56
the relationship of
religion and law, one of
00:19:06.57\00:19:09.35
the things that I,
I like to point out
00:19:09.36\00:19:12.01
frequently is that the
church is on solid ground
00:19:12.07\00:19:15.77
when we articulate
the moral principles,
00:19:16.04\00:19:19.81
for example. Well,
we have an obligation to
00:19:20.61\00:19:21.99
articulate them.
But, but let's take for
00:19:22.00\00:19:24.67
example the very hot
topic, continuing hot
00:19:24.68\00:19:27.63
topic in American
culture today over
00:19:27.64\00:19:30.06
abortion. It's much
easier for the church to
00:19:30.07\00:19:33.74
say that we should
respect the life of the
00:19:33.75\00:19:37.21
unborn and that this
is a value, regardless
00:19:37.22\00:19:40.67
of whether you set
official person who had
00:19:40.68\00:19:43.92
conception or at
birth it doesn't matter,
00:19:43.93\00:19:46.35
the unborn its life,
its human life and it
00:19:46.36\00:19:49.58
should be respected,
it should be protected,
00:19:49.59\00:19:52.10
but when I talk to
Christian leaders there is
00:19:52.40\00:19:55.76
no real consensus
about how to take that
00:19:55.77\00:19:58.72
principles and
translate it into public policy.
00:19:58.78\00:20:02.05
There is a lot of
angst about abortion on
00:20:02.27\00:20:05.81
demand, about
overly permissive society,
00:20:05.82\00:20:08.72
but there is no
real consensus about just
00:20:08.99\00:20:12.22
how the law should
reflect this principle,
00:20:12.23\00:20:14.51
and so the battles
continue. It's enough for
00:20:14.83\00:20:18.07
the church to teach
the, the moral principles
00:20:18.08\00:20:21.90
and the values,
that doesn't mean that
00:20:21.91\00:20:24.39
religion to going to
dictate the public policy
00:20:24.40\00:20:27.88
in some way.
Public policy is messy;
00:20:27.89\00:20:30.42
it's difficult to
adapt principles to
00:20:30.74\00:20:33.83
the realities of,
of day-to-day life.
00:20:33.84\00:20:36.09
Yeah, yeah, I'm
trying to think how to take
00:20:36.18\00:20:39.01
this abortion
discussion without naming names
00:20:39.02\00:20:41.94
as a former associate
of yours that's, that's
00:20:41.95\00:20:44.15
adamantly pro-
abortion and, and I don't
00:20:44.25\00:20:46.77
understand how is
anybody that reads the
00:20:46.78\00:20:48.69
Bible can come at
that conclusion and, and
00:20:48.70\00:20:51.20
the why that that,
that I like to see this is
00:20:51.21\00:20:55.47
it's, it's not a
matter of policy or doctrine,
00:20:55.84\00:20:58.97
this is a matter of
loyalty to God, the life
00:20:59.18\00:21:01.61
giver and surely any
Christian, any person
00:21:01.62\00:21:05.57
of faith that sees a
higher power that they
00:21:05.58\00:21:07.77
believe created
everything should have
00:21:07.78\00:21:09.63
deep respect for
life itself and not gut
00:21:09.85\00:21:12.26
you with the sleek terminator.
00:21:12.27\00:21:13.44
Well, at the risk
of, of coming across as
00:21:13.45\00:21:16.77
though I take this
position, I can at least
00:21:16.78\00:21:19.84
explain why you
know another Seventh-day
00:21:19.85\00:21:24.16
Adventist leader
would take a, a, a position
00:21:24.17\00:21:27.00
more favorable to
pro-choice. For one,
00:21:27.01\00:21:29.69
as a Religious
Liberty leader, one of the
00:21:30.00\00:21:32.65
principles of religious
freedom is the right of
00:21:32.66\00:21:35.96
the individual
conscious before God to make
00:21:35.97\00:21:38.83
moral choices and
wanting the state to
00:21:38.96\00:21:42.89
grant permission to
the individual to both
00:21:42.90\00:21:47.10
make those choices
and then ultimately to be
00:21:47.11\00:21:49.40
answerable to God
for them. So, there is a
00:21:49.41\00:21:51.92
certain pro-choice
Biblical philosophy that
00:21:51.93\00:21:57.15
comes into play
here. The other thing I
00:21:57.16\00:21:59.34
think is that there is
a suspicion of having the
00:21:59.35\00:22:05.33
law too closely
dictated by the church.
00:22:05.34\00:22:09.38
And they have a
union of church and state.
00:22:09.49\00:22:12.09
Exactly the Middle
Ages showed where that
00:22:12.10\00:22:13.95
leads directly and,
and, and, and, and this
00:22:13.96\00:22:16.42
person who I name
out, Steve Cooley tries to
00:22:16.43\00:22:20.24
connected to
theology of the Roman Catholic
00:22:20.25\00:22:23.78
Church in the Middle
Ages, which I think he is
00:22:23.79\00:22:26.04
half right, but we are
living in the Present Ages
00:22:26.05\00:22:29.20
now, and there is a
new dynamic at play and
00:22:29.21\00:22:31.65
I think we're living
through an age where an
00:22:31.66\00:22:34.78
awareness of God is
diminishing rapidly in
00:22:34.79\00:22:36.83
society. So, it's not
helping that to sort of
00:22:36.84\00:22:39.68
gratuitously or to
allow people gratuitously
00:22:39.69\00:22:42.29
to just dismiss developing love.
00:22:42.30\00:22:44.32
But you're, but
you're right we need to,
00:22:44.33\00:22:45.78
we need to be
because even in the Bible
00:22:45.79\00:22:48.12
you know, there
were property laws really
00:22:50.70\00:22:53.31
apply to unborn
children and so on, there
00:22:53.32\00:22:55.53
was the potential and
there were punishments,
00:22:55.54\00:22:57.19
it wasn't seen as
actually killing a person,
00:22:57.20\00:22:59.04
but there was a
penalty, if, if, if a
00:22:59.05\00:23:01.91
pregnant woman
was, was harmed or the
00:23:01.92\00:23:03.70
child was harmed. Or
one of, one of the issues
00:23:03.71\00:23:05.78
in our society today
that I think underlies all
00:23:05.79\00:23:08.45
of this is we have
lost sight of the reality of
00:23:08.46\00:23:12.44
our Creator and we've
lost sight of the reality
00:23:12.45\00:23:16.33
that the law of God
is not simply something
00:23:16.81\00:23:19.88
that pertains to
believers who wanna go
00:23:20.26\00:23:23.32
to heaven, but the
law of God was given
00:23:23.33\00:23:27.34
by the Creator who
knows human nature,
00:23:27.92\00:23:30.95
He created
humanity, He knows what's for
00:23:30.96\00:23:33.71
our best happiness?
And so to the extent
00:23:33.72\00:23:36.27
that
particularly the Commandments,
00:23:36.69\00:23:38.58
the second table of
the law that pertain to our
00:23:38.59\00:23:41.17
relationship with
one another to the extent
00:23:41.18\00:23:43.98
that human law
reflects the wisdom of the
00:23:44.50\00:23:48.34
Creator about the
reality of human life it will
00:23:48.35\00:23:52.51
be a, a better set of
laws, it will create a
00:23:52.52\00:23:55.94
happier and, and
healthier society.
00:23:55.95\00:23:58.08
And, and those basic
"Moral or laws of public
00:23:58.09\00:24:02.63
morality that that,
that we can find in religion
00:24:02.64\00:24:05.50
that we can also
find in the government are
00:24:05.51\00:24:08.17
really not unique to
Christianity you know,
00:24:08.18\00:24:09.87
a lot of people
make much of the law,
00:24:09.88\00:24:11.31
laws of
Hammurabi that go back to
00:24:11.32\00:24:13.14
prehistory and so
on. Well, Paul, Paul in
00:24:13.15\00:24:15.56
Romans. I think
human beings have
00:24:15.57\00:24:16.96
discovered what God
had told early on that
00:24:16.97\00:24:19.98
certain things you
do because you will
00:24:19.99\00:24:22.41
live long in the
land because of them.
00:24:22.42\00:24:24.05
Look, look Paul
in Romans makes the
00:24:24.32\00:24:26.45
argument that the
Gentiles who don't have
00:24:26.46\00:24:29.14
the Torah, they don't
have the revealed law of
00:24:29.15\00:24:32.23
God, when they do
what's written in the Torah
00:24:32.24\00:24:35.30
they show that it's
written in the heart.
00:24:35.39\00:24:37.08
There are some basic
things like don't murder,
00:24:37.19\00:24:39.40
don't steal,
don't commit adultery.
00:24:39.41\00:24:41.35
You don't need thus
saith the Lord to know
00:24:41.93\00:24:44.47
that this is wrong, I
don't care what culture
00:24:44.48\00:24:46.80
or a civilization you
live in, these basic moral
00:24:47.05\00:24:50.49
principles are just,
they're in the Ether.
00:24:50.50\00:24:53.71
The spirit
testifies, they're part of human
00:24:54.47\00:24:57.02
nature, they're,
they're written in our DNA sort
00:24:57.03\00:25:00.15
of speak. They're
written in our DNA,
00:25:00.16\00:25:01.88
but where I
think the danger is in.
00:25:01.89\00:25:03.38
At the end I'm close
to why I started this
00:25:04.56\00:25:07.02
whole discussion at
the beginning of the
00:25:07.03\00:25:08.24
program I've reread
again recently Alvin
00:25:08.25\00:25:10.99
Toffler's book Future
Shock and I do believe
00:25:11.00\00:25:14.55
that in the Modern
World with, with, with the
00:25:14.97\00:25:17.60
computerization
and, and, and mass
00:25:19.56\00:25:22.06
production and, and
move, people moving to
00:25:22.07\00:25:24.16
the cities, the
social precious, atomic bombs
00:25:24.17\00:25:26.52
and the whole thing,
I think we're very close
00:25:26.53\00:25:29.62
to in the, in, in
Modern Societies at least
00:25:29.63\00:25:31.70
there is sort of a
group psychosis where
00:25:31.71\00:25:33.96
we're not thinking
clearly, and things that
00:25:33.97\00:25:37.31
were aberrant to
clear thinking societies in
00:25:37.32\00:25:40.12
the past like not
killing other people.
00:25:40.13\00:25:42.42
They may actually be formalized
00:25:42.74\00:25:44.71
now as absolutely acceptable.
00:25:44.72\00:25:46.41
Well, that's a
frightening thought,
00:25:47.98\00:25:49.73
yeah, but you know
George, George Orwell and,
00:25:49.74\00:25:52.56
and, and Aldous
Huxley and, and they're
00:25:53.25\00:25:55.60
a kind of prophetic
casting of, of a futuristic
00:25:55.61\00:25:59.06
society where human
rights are, are just
00:25:59.07\00:26:01.51
demolished and, and
privacy and, and freedom
00:26:01.52\00:26:05.07
are, are no more.
We're, we're away past
00:26:05.39\00:26:10.07
1984 today Lincoln.
We're in a time where we
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need to; to God good
laws well and test all
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laws by the word of
God and by higher moral
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absolutes I believe.
You know the old saying
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is that eternal vigilance
is the price of liberty
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and it's, I think
this is something Americans
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are so prone to
focusing on what's new,
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what's
different, what's immediate?
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You know it's, it's
the age of, of texting and
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Facebook and everything is very
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shallow. We have to
recover things that are
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really significant.
Eternal, eternal vigilance
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really is the price of
liberty, it's so important
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to be informed and
to stay involved and to
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actually do something to protect
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our Religious Freedom.
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In the Old Testament
it was obvious that the
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Medes and the
Persians imagine that their
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laws once signed by
the King could not be
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changed. In the
Western World laws are
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not really like that,
every time the legislator
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sits down they
can add to the laws.
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The Supreme Court
can put a new cast on an
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old law, law is a
dynamic and most of us
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haven't quite realized
that, it's only when you
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look to God's word,
to an absolute moral
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eternal law because
something that is fixed
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and really ultimately
inflexible. Today there is
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a great debate in
our world, in the United
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States particularly
about the role of law and
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the role of
morality. We need to recognize
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that the church has a
higher role to represent
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God's law to a
Secular State. The Secular
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State is seeking to
uphold the public good,
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but it is not
working necessarily for moral
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absolutes. For Liberty Insider,
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this is Lincoln Steed.
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