Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
that brings you news,
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views and
discussion on religious liberty
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developments in
our world. My name is
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Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest on the program is
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Dr. John Graz. Welcome
Dr. Graz you're Director
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of Public Affairs and
Religious Liberty for the
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World Headquarters of
the Seventh-day Adventist
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Church in Silver Spring
and. Yes it's a pleasure
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to be with you
Lincoln. We were close together
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and it's always a
pleasure to have you
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on the program.
There are so many things
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going on at the moment.
It's always hard to know
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where to jump into.
But lets really hit it
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at a red hot flash
point. Not too long ago,
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a very small town,
Florida independent Pastor
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got everything hot and bothered.
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That everybody hot
and bothered by suggesting
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that in retaliation
for Islamic provocations.
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He was going to
publicly burn the Qur'an.
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Yeah. What do you
think such a, such a an
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intention. Oh!
There are many, many thing
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we can say about
that. First, you know
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you would be
interested to know that
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we were in Middle
East when it happened.
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We were in Jordan. And in Jordan
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and we had just
organized our meeting
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of expert there
and of course we saw
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the tension going up
and specially you know
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watching on the TV we
saw how that the press
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and the media you
know put oil on the fire
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instead to say okay,
you know that's a very
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marginal thing. You
know he is a pastor,
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he has maybe 50 members,
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that's not very important.
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We should ignore that.
You know it's interesting
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that to see that the
media ignored many things.
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Many things which are
happening, which are very
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good are totally
ignored. But this time you know
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everywhere in
the world you know,
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everywhere in the
world we talk about that
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and I remember watching
on TV every five minutes
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you know you had
something about burning
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the Qur'an, burning the Qur'an
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and you can imagine
the affect in Middle East
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where people are
really very much religious.
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And it was
multiplied by the e-mails
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and so on. Multiplied and so on
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and they were
ready to kill people.
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You know they make sure.
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I think the responsibility
of our own media are
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very important. We
almost make sure that
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they will react. Well,
it's a double edged sword,
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because do we
want to have the media
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consciously damping down news.
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There might be
things that we need to know.
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But there is no
question that in many cases
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they rev up
something that is not big news
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and make it. No, we
could have just ignored,
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you know. It
reminds me of a little.
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Fifty people,
member of 50 people.
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I will go from the
sublime to the ridiculous,
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but it
illustrates the point totally.
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In Australia, there is
a Seventh-day Adventist
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doctor that still
writes for our signs
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of the times. He
writes some medical column.
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Years and years ago
when I was a very small
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child and he was a
friend of my father.
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He worked for
the local newspaper.
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He was a reporter
and he got front page
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headlines one issue
of the, one of the major
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Sydney newspapers
with the story about
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there was a death.
A lonely death on a
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roadside and you
know it would suck you in,
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will it turned out
that the story was he found
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a little dead bird
on the side of the road.
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Yeah, you have
read this. It's such a
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sensational man, he
just sucked everyone in.
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I mean that was a total nothing,
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I mean it was God
knows every little bird
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that falls, but in
reality in the largest scheme
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of things that was no
news made into full news.
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Yeah. But the
media have that ability,
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how they treated and
how they focus on it.
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Right. And in some
cases we see a very negative
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affect and. In fact you know we,
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we give a lot of
publicity to these pastor maybe
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this is what he
wanted. A lot of publicity,
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we gave him you know
a publicity everywhere
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around the world and
we create problem for
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the country. We create
problem for the American
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tourists, for
the American army and
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so on and so on.
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And we are really
to think about that.
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Well, this is a
case where the religious
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and civil liberty
issue was sort of at odds
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with the question of
moral responsibility.
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Yeah. He had every
right to burn a book.
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We shouldn't really
say Qur'an, you know books,
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books but, but what
he was really attacking
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were the ideas that
it contained and, and
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as Christian we're
quite used to in Western
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society Christianity
is regularly insulted.
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You turn on late night
TV and you know they will,
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they will, they'll
drag Christian values
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and Christ
himself through the mud.
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And we should be
more troubled, but surely
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we're not going to
go and torch the studio
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where they're filming that.
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This was the dynamic
that was uncorked there.
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Prejudice on both
sides. A simple Pastor
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who I think was
willing to do something beyond
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the moral pale and
then on the other side
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Islamic mobs if you
like who could be so easily
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in-sided to
violence in the name of their
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religion. I think that
you know I really wanted
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that the Muslim understand that,
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that is a provocation.
And that is also a trap,
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you know he wants to
prove that the Muslim
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are extremist,
radical, you cannot talk
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with them. They
don't respect the freedom
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of expression
and they trap them.
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And of course if they react.
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They're killing
people, burning embassies
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and so on. It
shows that he is right,
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yeah, he is right. And something
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that we have to
be very careful too.
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Yeah and of course
he stated the reason for
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doing that was
because this mosque/community
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center in New York.
He saw as a provocation.
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And we don't have
any direct evidence
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that it was
intended to be, yeah,
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but it functioned as
a provocation to certain
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elements in the United States.
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You would be
interested to know we talk with
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several leaders in
Middle East and several of them
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said you know as a
Muslim if we want to built
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a mosque and it
becomes a problem
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for the people we
should just not doing that,
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that would because
we should respect what
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the people think. We
should not provoke them.
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It means even the
Muslim disagree with the way
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you know. If
you have a reaction,
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if people don't
understand what you want to do
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maybe the best is
just to wait. Yeah.
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It means you have also
wisdom and it's not just
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a reaction
provoking other reaction.
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The worst which
can happened you know,
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the extremists in one side,
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feed the
extremist on the other side.
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And that's where
I believe we are now
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in global
religious affairs. There's a,
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there's a
dangerous interaction between
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the radical elements
of different religions
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that is feeding and escalating.
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And, and you
know we have mentioned
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on this program
before, but Samuel Huntington's
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idea of the
Clash of Civilization,
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Clash of
Civilization yeah. While it was
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simplistic as
expressed. Yeah. In many ways
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it has some
truth. You know we are,
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I remember talking
with someone from the,
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the Untied Nation
and a good friend there.
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High position at
the United Nation
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and we're of course
totally opposed to this
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concept of
Clash of Civilization.
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But after
September 11 you know he said
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to me we are just
in. Just the beginning.
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Just the
beginning here. I think so.
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But we have to
do our best because
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what would be
the benefit of this
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Clash of Civilization.
No, no. We will loose,
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all of us will loose
you know the best way,
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the best way would be a place.
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The world would be
a place where people
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can share what they
believe and that is also
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important for
Christian. They want to pray
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to the gospel. We
want to pray to gospel
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to everyone. We
don't want to force anyone
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to follow our Jesus
and so on. We just want
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people know that
there is a way and you know
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for doing, to do
that. We need freedom,
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yeah, we need
freedom, the same for the
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other religion. You
know the other religion
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also want to
share. They need freedom,
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it means we should have
kind of a large consensus
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about the religious
freedom. It clearly,
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it should be and has
to be on a more humane
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level then that
burning threat and the
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provocation of building
in an alien environment.
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But at the same
token you know I read
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my Bible and Paul
represents in Ephesians,
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yeah, they came in
there and they disrupted
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the local economy
there and their religious
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viewpoint was
extremely threatening,
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provocative and ultimately there
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was a riot. Yeah.
And through no direct
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negative action on his
part, there was just an
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inherent conflict.
Yeah. And I think on a certain
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level we need to
recognize, we do have
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a clash not of cultures,
but a clash of theology,
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a clash of Gods.
Yeah. That's there but as
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human beings we
certainly need to operate in,
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in, in the right
way both for civil laws
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and to represent as
Christians, represent our
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Christ in a way
that does not, you know
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hinging on other
people. I thought very often
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of these points you
know the consequence,
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the economical consequences of
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a religion. Imagine
that the Adventist would
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become a majority in a country.
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Not just a few, a few
person but a big majority
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60, 70%. It will
affect the economy of some,
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some people. You
know what about those
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who are selling
alcohol. What about those
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who are selling
meat or porks and so on.
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You know and of
course at this time
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if you're not
ready to accept that,
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that's a part of
the freedom we have.
00:09:47.27\00:09:48.94
You may have enemies
without really trying
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to make enemies just
before because you exist
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and because you have
some values it can create
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some hostility
and opposition where
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we were living. I'm
sure when you said you had
00:10:03.09\00:10:04.88
in mind what's happening right
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now in Iraq for example.
The Christians are being
00:10:06.19\00:10:10.14
caught in the middle
between the two Islamic
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factions because by
both of these radical
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factions they see a
problem with Christians
00:10:15.15\00:10:17.80
to pickle it. It's
very often being the shop
00:10:17.83\00:10:20.73
that sells alcohol. Yeah, yeah.
00:10:20.76\00:10:22.27
So they see it
subverting to their own faith,
00:10:22.30\00:10:24.66
not necessarily the
Christianity threatens
00:10:24.69\00:10:26.89
them. No, no, no. But
the Christian is an outlaw
00:10:26.92\00:10:28.84
in their society. Yeah exactly.
00:10:28.87\00:10:30.95
And we need to be,
it means sometime even
00:10:30.98\00:10:33.28
if you don't want to
have enemies indirectly
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you know you provoke
because you are affecting
00:10:36.65\00:10:39.22
the interest of
some people. Yeah.
00:10:39.25\00:10:41.60
And tobacco is
the same you know.
00:10:41.63\00:10:42.97
Imagine that instead
to be one or two million
00:10:43.00\00:10:45.69
in North America who
would be 50, 60, 70 million
00:10:45.72\00:10:49.34
that wouldn't be
terrible for those
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who are selling
tobacco and some of the drools.
00:10:51.26\00:10:54.75
At least that's a
problem that we haven't
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yet faced, nor likely
to soon that we don't know
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how large our
particular will grow.
00:11:00.68\00:11:04.69
But we should not
under estimated the economic
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affect of a
religion, because it has,
00:11:08.18\00:11:11.03
you know it has. You
know during long time
00:11:11.29\00:11:14.01
in the Catholic
church and still now saw on
00:11:14.04\00:11:16.32
Friday you don't eat
meat, but you eat fish.
00:11:16.35\00:11:20.91
It was very good for
the fisherman those who
00:11:21.30\00:11:24.00
sell fish. You know
the affect is there,
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is the same way a
Muslim eating a lamb.
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That's very good for
those who, but of course
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business describing is
not in a self religion.
00:11:33.44\00:11:35.76
It's just social norms
and whenever you change
00:11:35.79\00:11:38.99
any of those, it has
economic ramifications.
00:11:39.02\00:11:41.11
Yeah exactly. As the
U.S. military have even
00:11:41.14\00:11:43.83
recognized the
droughts and social dislocation
00:11:43.86\00:11:47.93
has immediate
implications for warfare,
00:11:47.96\00:11:50.50
so it doesn't take much
to unsettle the problems
00:11:50.53\00:11:54.65
of society. The
point I would like to.
00:11:54.68\00:11:55.96
Like a pit stop
football games on the weekend.
00:11:55.99\00:11:58.29
Hot dog sales would
drop radically and even
00:11:58.56\00:12:02.55
parking tickets
probably would diminish
00:12:02.58\00:12:04.51
and local candies would
be in financial trouble.
00:12:04.54\00:12:07.18
There are
unforeseen consequences.
00:12:07.21\00:12:09.45
Yeah exactly, the
point is you know even
00:12:09.48\00:12:12.07
if you don't attack
people directly you maybe
00:12:12.10\00:12:15.14
credit for the
interest and at this time
00:12:15.18\00:12:18.02
don't expect that they
will just let you to do
00:12:18.05\00:12:20.60
what you want to
do and to prosper
00:12:20.86\00:12:23.06
onto increase, they will react.
00:12:23.09\00:12:24.37
And, and as far as
Seventh-day Adventist
00:12:24.68\00:12:26.88
and Sunday laws
which has been one of our
00:12:26.91\00:12:28.96
markers, we are not be
provocative there unless
00:12:28.99\00:12:31.72
our religious
behavior is threatened.
00:12:31.75\00:12:34.48
We are not to
project that in a way that
00:12:34.51\00:12:37.64
is threatening or
restricting to other
00:12:37.67\00:12:39.75
people. We'll be
back after a break.
00:12:39.78\00:12:42.38
Interesting
discussion, this is always an
00:12:42.69\00:12:44.84
interesting
discussion on religious liberty
00:12:44.87\00:12:46.85
affairs that
impacts society as a whole.
00:12:46.88\00:12:49.60
We'll be right back.
00:12:49.78\00:12:50.75
One-hundred years, a
long time to do anything
00:13:00.73\00:13:04.21
much less publish a
magazine, but this year
00:13:04.50\00:13:07.28
Liberty, the
Seventh-day Adventist
00:13:07.31\00:13:09.73
voice of religious
freedom, celebrates
00:13:09.76\00:13:11.76
a hundred years of
doing what it does best,
00:13:11.79\00:13:14.56
collecting,
analyzing, and reporting the
00:13:14.59\00:13:17.53
ebb and flow of
religious expression
00:13:17.56\00:13:19.58
around the world.
Issue after issue,
00:13:19.61\00:13:22.33
Liberty has taken on
the tough assignments,
00:13:22.60\00:13:24.89
tracking down
threats to religious freedom
00:13:24.92\00:13:27.20
and exposing the
work of the devil in every
00:13:27.23\00:13:29.48
corner of the globe.
00:13:29.51\00:13:30.57
Governmental
interference, personal
00:13:30.80\00:13:32.96
attacks, corporate
assaults, even religious
00:13:32.99\00:13:35.83
freedom issues
sequestered within the
00:13:35.86\00:13:37.27
church community
itself have been clearly
00:13:37.30\00:13:39.70
and honestly exposed.
Liberty exists for one
00:13:39.73\00:13:43.23
purpose to help
God's people maintain that
00:13:43.26\00:13:46.21
all important
separation of Church and State,
00:13:46.24\00:13:48.96
while recognizing the
dangers inherent in such
00:13:48.99\00:13:51.97
a struggle.
During the past century,
00:13:52.00\00:13:54.24
Liberty has experienced
challenges of its own,
00:13:54.27\00:13:56.69
but it remains on the job.
00:13:56.72\00:13:58.75
Thanks to the inspired
leadership of a long line
00:13:59.11\00:14:01.85
of dedicated
Adventist Editors, three of whom
00:14:01.88\00:14:04.17
represent almost
half of the publications
00:14:04.20\00:14:06.19
existence and the
foresight of a little
00:14:06.22\00:14:08.44
woman from New
England. One hundred years
00:14:08.47\00:14:11.51
of struggle, one
hundred years of victories,
00:14:11.54\00:14:14.24
religious freedom
isn't just about political
00:14:14.50\00:14:17.08
machines and
cultural prejudices.
00:14:17.22\00:14:19.07
It's about people,
fighting for the right
00:14:19.10\00:14:22.29
to serve the God
they love as their hearts
00:14:22.32\00:14:25.22
and the Holy Spirit
dictate. Thanks to the
00:14:25.25\00:14:28.38
prayers and generous support of
00:14:28.41\00:14:29.89
Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere.
00:14:29.92\00:14:31.72
Liberty will continue
to accomplish its work
00:14:31.91\00:14:34.48
of providing timely information,
00:14:34.51\00:14:36.15
spirit-filled
inspiration, and heaven sent
00:14:36.18\00:14:38.76
encouragement to
all who long to live and
00:14:38.79\00:14:41.92
work in a world
bound together by the
00:14:41.95\00:14:44.69
God ordained bonds
of religious freedom.
00:14:44.72\00:14:48.12
Welcome back to Liberty Insider.
00:14:57.05\00:14:58.99
Before the break we
were talking about some
00:14:59.22\00:15:01.26
of the current
dynamic of religious
00:15:01.29\00:15:03.27
conflict John. Yeah.
You know the provocation
00:15:03.30\00:15:05.79
of a possible
Qur'an burning and then
00:15:05.82\00:15:09.79
we were saying the
clash of civilizations
00:15:10.13\00:15:12.07
because sometimes it
be inadvertent religious
00:15:12.10\00:15:14.59
provocation. Yeah, you
know which is interesting
00:15:14.62\00:15:17.36
coming back to
the Qur'an, you know
00:15:17.39\00:15:19.33
there is an article
was written about the
00:15:19.82\00:15:23.16
Muslim in France,
you know in France Islam
00:15:23.19\00:15:27.07
is number two as
second religion. It's amazing.
00:15:27.10\00:15:30.20
And which is
interesting is, you know
00:15:30.23\00:15:32.34
if you go some part
of Paris at 4:00 or 4:30
00:15:32.37\00:15:36.32
in the afternoon.
All the quarter of the
00:15:36.35\00:15:39.30
street are block
or closed because
00:15:39.33\00:15:41.62
it's a time of
prayer which is totally
00:15:41.65\00:15:44.38
impossible to
imagine that they do that,
00:15:44.47\00:15:47.41
they will do that for Christian.
00:15:47.44\00:15:48.74
You know if the
Christian went to pray.
00:15:48.94\00:15:50.49
They will be
arrested in the public square
00:15:50.58\00:15:53.38
and put in jail,
but they accepted that
00:15:53.41\00:15:55.66
in these part of
Paris you know the
00:15:55.69\00:15:58.18
Muslim can pray
and they are protected.
00:15:58.21\00:16:00.06
I went through
that part of Paris.
00:16:00.09\00:16:01.56
It's a kind of provocation.
00:16:01.59\00:16:02.56
I gone to see my GPS.
I plotted a direct line,
00:16:02.57\00:16:05.93
instead of taking
these on the main highways
00:16:05.96\00:16:07.99
it went straight
through the area which was
00:16:08.02\00:16:10.23
also know where the riots where.
00:16:10.26\00:16:11.54
I saw all the riots
and largely North African
00:16:11.66\00:16:15.48
Muslims that I saw
that it was like being
00:16:15.82\00:16:19.41
in a foreign
country. You know for me.
00:16:19.44\00:16:20.88
What would people
would think of Paris.
00:16:20.94\00:16:22.59
Yeah that is a just
violation for you know
00:16:22.62\00:16:25.75
religious or not
religious freedom and church,
00:16:25.78\00:16:28.21
state separation,
yes, because normally
00:16:28.24\00:16:30.31
they're to say, hey
no that is a public area
00:16:30.34\00:16:33.00
you don't have to
pray. The other side
00:16:33.03\00:16:35.09
is you know I'm
happy to see that in a very
00:16:35.12\00:16:37.90
secularize
countries you have people
00:16:37.93\00:16:41.13
who were praying
and they are not afraid
00:16:41.16\00:16:43.46
to pray on the
public square and they said
00:16:43.49\00:16:45.99
now it's time to
pray and that's its kind
00:16:46.02\00:16:49.59
of provocation,
but you know that's not
00:16:49.62\00:16:52.63
really.. It maybe,
this is good time to put
00:16:52.66\00:16:54.32
an ad in for Islam.
You know we have to admire
00:16:54.81\00:16:57.88
the daily faith
commitment that it
00:16:58.45\00:17:00.87
requires from
an observant Muslim
00:17:00.90\00:17:03.18
and a high
percentage to do their prayers
00:17:03.21\00:17:06.13
five times a day.
Yeah. Five time a day.
00:17:06.97\00:17:09.45
When you are, when
you are, inconvenient.
00:17:09.48\00:17:11.65
Exactly this is what
I said to the Christian
00:17:11.68\00:17:13.94
there you know when
you are living in your
00:17:13.97\00:17:16.69
country, you know
that now its time to pray.
00:17:16.72\00:17:20.49
Do have, you know
how I have to pray.
00:17:20.89\00:17:22.67
You know people
pray, you know what about
00:17:22.70\00:17:25.53
my own prayer and
you know when I was there
00:17:25.56\00:17:28.08
every time you know
the Muslim start to pray
00:17:28.11\00:17:31.13
I pray myself too. I
said now its time to pray
00:17:31.16\00:17:34.99
and that's a very positive side.
00:17:35.02\00:17:37.14
Even if we can talk
about you know is it necessary
00:17:37.48\00:17:40.38
to expand and to have
this kind of low but for me
00:17:40.41\00:17:45.58
as individual you
know it remember me,
00:17:45.84\00:17:48.75
remember me that,
remind me that God
00:17:48.78\00:17:51.84
exists now its
time to pray. Yeah.
00:17:51.87\00:17:54.82
And, and obviously
as Christians looking at
00:17:54.85\00:17:57.89
any other religion we
hold it, we have correct
00:17:57.92\00:18:01.84
faith and they
are differing in some
00:18:01.87\00:18:03.80
erroneous in
someway. But you can admire
00:18:03.83\00:18:07.45
elements of any
faith I think and that
00:18:08.05\00:18:11.35
commitment is good,
of course as we saw with
00:18:11.38\00:18:13.29
Roman Catholicism
at the middle ages.
00:18:13.32\00:18:14.87
A formalism and
wrote behaviors like that
00:18:14.90\00:18:19.30
can become an end in
themselves and people
00:18:19.33\00:18:21.12
easily lose sight of
the spirituality of it
00:18:21.15\00:18:24.08
and I was even
thinking for the first time.
00:18:24.11\00:18:26.42
It never crossed my
mom before, but prayer
00:18:26.45\00:18:29.18
or anything else like
that. That's routinely
00:18:29.21\00:18:32.26
applied. It could
like Pavlov's dogs,
00:18:32.29\00:18:34.22
yeah of course, you
just saying you were
00:18:34.42\00:18:37.02
in an area, you
learn that's what expected
00:18:37.05\00:18:38.99
and I think an
observant Muslim would agree
00:18:39.52\00:18:43.02
readily that
defeats the purpose.
00:18:43.05\00:18:44.81
They're supposed to
open their mind to God
00:18:44.84\00:18:46.99
as a Christian
would do prayer not just
00:18:47.02\00:18:49.33
go through the motions.
00:18:49.36\00:18:50.51
I accept that as
long as I'm not forced
00:18:50.54\00:18:52.98
you know to pray and
I don't want to force
00:18:53.01\00:18:55.03
anyone. Yes, as far
as religious freedom.
00:18:55.06\00:18:56.35
But as the sign
to you know which say
00:18:56.38\00:18:58.75
to me now it's a
time to pray God exists
00:18:58.78\00:19:01.76
for a behavior
that's a good thing.
00:19:01.79\00:19:04.01
But you know in
some part of Europe
00:19:04.04\00:19:06.72
in one country they accepted.
00:19:06.75\00:19:09.87
I talk with one
of the leader there.
00:19:09.90\00:19:11.78
They accepted that
the Muslim could use
00:19:11.81\00:19:14.68
you know they are
called to prayer the
00:19:14.71\00:19:16.79
Friday evening. They
have the right to do that.
00:19:16.82\00:19:19.35
They did that and
after the Atheists say
00:19:19.38\00:19:22.09
and we should have
also the right to say
00:19:22.12\00:19:24.01
something and they
accepted and the Atheist.
00:19:24.04\00:19:27.08
Atheist is one of
those. And they pray this
00:19:27.11\00:19:30.08
a God doesn't
exist, God doesn't exist
00:19:30.11\00:19:32.41
and after all the
Pentecostal say we are
00:19:32.44\00:19:34.26
many in this city.
We should also have the
00:19:34.29\00:19:36.73
right to say
something and they also said
00:19:36.76\00:19:39.06
that God is, God is
our savior, Jesus is
00:19:39.09\00:19:42.37
our savior. And
you know why Babylon
00:19:42.40\00:19:45.69
comes to mind.
Very interesting way.
00:19:45.72\00:19:48.32
But you know too many voices,
00:19:48.35\00:19:49.65
but hopefully among
all the competing voices
00:19:49.68\00:19:52.78
we can hear the
voice of God, because just
00:19:52.81\00:19:55.02
because people
are talking religion.
00:19:55.05\00:19:56.21
It doesn't mean
that God is really.
00:19:56.24\00:19:57.81
Yeah you talk
about Middle Age you know
00:19:57.84\00:19:59.12
probably on the
point of freedom,
00:19:59.15\00:20:01.57
Middle age is
really a dark period,
00:20:01.60\00:20:04.12
but you know never
forget that you have
00:20:04.49\00:20:06.44
a beautiful example of
Christianity in Middle Age.
00:20:06.47\00:20:09.12
You had people giving
their life not in killing
00:20:09.15\00:20:12.42
others, but really
in trying to follow
00:20:12.45\00:20:14.73
the way of Jesus.
That was a very observant
00:20:14.76\00:20:16.89
period people forget
that. We say the dark ages,
00:20:16.92\00:20:19.64
but in many ways
civilization flourished.
00:20:19.67\00:20:22.65
And it was wrong
because they force
00:20:22.68\00:20:24.69
people, but there
are many positive side
00:20:24.72\00:20:26.93
of Middle Age and
one of the rest of the
00:20:26.96\00:20:28.99
Middle Age are the
Cathedrals. You know now
00:20:29.02\00:20:32.53
you are living in a
very secularized country
00:20:32.56\00:20:34.84
people don't speak
about God, there is no
00:20:34.90\00:20:37.25
religion, if you
speak about God they look
00:20:37.37\00:20:40.10
at you as a Fanatic
you know you don't want
00:20:40.13\00:20:42.83
to walk in the
street with your Bible.
00:20:42.86\00:20:45.27
They may arrest you
because he is a Fanatic,
00:20:45.30\00:20:47.80
but you have
cathedral. And what does
00:20:48.16\00:20:51.63
it cathedral, you know
people are living in the
00:20:51.66\00:20:53.62
middle of the old
city, you have a beautiful
00:20:53.65\00:20:56.27
cathedral. It means
God. You cannot ignore
00:20:56.30\00:21:00.12
that sometime in this
country you have people
00:21:00.15\00:21:04.85
believing in God and
wanted to built a temple
00:21:04.88\00:21:08.21
for God. You know
that's a kind of a message.
00:21:08.24\00:21:10.39
Well I think
that's a given. You know,
00:21:10.42\00:21:11.39
we believe it immediately,
but I think you talk
00:21:11.40\00:21:14.22
this stuff through and
it's obvious that human
00:21:14.25\00:21:16.61
kind has an innate
need for the divine,
00:21:16.64\00:21:19.50
yeah, and we're
going through a period
00:21:19.74\00:21:21.87
in Europe particularly
of secular materialism,
00:21:21.90\00:21:26.37
but that's superficial
to some of the great.
00:21:26.40\00:21:28.72
Yeah it's because.
It's need of the divine.
00:21:28.75\00:21:32.23
Yeah it becomes
superficial when it is
00:21:32.26\00:21:34.44
imposed to people
and also we have also to
00:21:34.47\00:21:38.36
remember that
people are superstitious
00:21:38.39\00:21:40.65
and very often you know
religion use superstition
00:21:40.68\00:21:45.16
to dominate people.
You're right that's really
00:21:45.19\00:21:47.93
a lot of the power
of religion over people
00:21:47.96\00:21:50.20
getting to these,
these deep seated even
00:21:50.23\00:21:53.88
you may seen in
some people that religion
00:21:53.91\00:21:55.70
can sort of
uncork, superstition is an
00:21:55.73\00:21:58.24
old term for a modern
dislocation that people
00:21:58.27\00:22:00.81
have Ron. You know
if you say to people
00:22:00.84\00:22:02.47
you know if you
don't go through us,
00:22:02.50\00:22:04.75
through special group
of people, you will go
00:22:05.07\00:22:08.24
to hell. You know
it's scarring and of course
00:22:08.27\00:22:11.32
at the same time it
gives to a certain people
00:22:11.35\00:22:14.53
in the society a lot
of power because you know
00:22:14.56\00:22:17.56
everyone one day
or other have to die
00:22:17.59\00:22:19.97
and what happen
after, after you die.
00:22:20.00\00:22:22.64
You know, you need
to have some certitude
00:22:22.67\00:22:25.42
about your future and it
gives to religious people.
00:22:25.45\00:22:29.13
You know what I
think is one of the saddest
00:22:29.16\00:22:31.06
things about
modern life and I've never
00:22:31.09\00:22:32.87
vocalized this before,
but I have thought of it
00:22:32.90\00:22:36.30
a lot lately as I've
read all the news magazines.
00:22:36.33\00:22:38.40
I think living under
the nuclear threat for what
00:22:38.43\00:22:43.05
five decades now
and other end omens
00:22:43.08\00:22:48.68
of modern life,
the environment that.
00:22:48.71\00:22:50.38
People even, religious
people as well as secular
00:22:50.67\00:22:54.04
people are almost
saying this life is it.
00:22:54.07\00:22:56.87
Yeah. I don't really
see that they're earning
00:22:57.28\00:23:00.87
for another life
like they use to be.
00:23:00.90\00:23:02.44
Yes. At the moment
this fellow Hitchens,
00:23:02.82\00:23:06.70
well known atheist
is dying of cancer.
00:23:07.23\00:23:11.29
You picked up
from that. Yeah, yeah.
00:23:11.32\00:23:13.26
And not till the end
he is saying, not gonna
00:23:13.29\00:23:16.09
change my mind and
you know I can't believe
00:23:16.12\00:23:18.28
in a God who would die for us.
00:23:18.31\00:23:19.86
I don't believe it,
there is nothing beyond this.
00:23:19.89\00:23:21.97
If he had an enough
hope from this life that
00:23:22.91\00:23:27.74
maybe more of it
would be great, yeah,
00:23:27.77\00:23:29.96
he might have a
hope for the beyond,
00:23:29.99\00:23:31.29
but when, when life
is so stultifying now.
00:23:31.32\00:23:33.59
I think it's not
conditioning people,
00:23:34.42\00:23:36.05
it's a sort of
ironic because we've been
00:23:36.08\00:23:38.45
talking about the
middles ages where life was not
00:23:38.48\00:23:41.14
good and they wanted
a a better life to come.
00:23:41.17\00:23:43.68
Yeah right. I think
that was long conditioning,
00:23:43.71\00:23:45.59
but we have lived
through a dislocating
00:23:46.20\00:23:48.25
period where disillusioning and
00:23:48.28\00:23:51.00
curiously, you know
maybe a good life is good
00:23:51.03\00:23:54.82
if you believe in
religion, but if you don't same
00:23:54.85\00:23:57.24
thing because this
is not a great life.
00:23:57.27\00:23:58.82
Yeah. The end of it
is at least a release.
00:23:58.85\00:24:00.57
You know. What we
have to supply to people
00:24:00.60\00:24:03.69
I think, we were
talking about revival on another
00:24:03.72\00:24:05.96
program. Somehow
we have to give them
00:24:05.99\00:24:07.83
as Paul said about the
Damascus road is vision,
00:24:07.86\00:24:11.24
this heavenly vision.
Yes and I think that you
00:24:11.27\00:24:14.47
know seeing you
know when you believe
00:24:14.50\00:24:16.52
that there is
something after it's not just
00:24:16.55\00:24:19.25
something after is
your know there is a place,
00:24:19.28\00:24:22.44
there will be a place
where you have all the
00:24:22.47\00:24:24.46
values. You know
we see even if your
00:24:24.49\00:24:27.15
life is good, even if
you have a beautiful house,
00:24:27.18\00:24:29.65
two or three cars
everything is doing well
00:24:29.68\00:24:31.98
still you have
to open your eyes.
00:24:32.01\00:24:34.11
There are so many
people who are suffering
00:24:34.14\00:24:37.29
today. There are so
many people who have
00:24:37.32\00:24:39.63
no hope, so many
people who are slaved,
00:24:39.66\00:24:43.00
not you know under
injustice and so on.
00:24:43.03\00:24:47.47
You cannot say that
everything is doing well.
00:24:47.50\00:24:49.73
You know you need, I
know, of course if you
00:24:49.76\00:24:52.63
have no, no values that
it may work, but I think
00:24:52.66\00:24:57.71
that you cannot
imagine that you know these
00:24:57.74\00:25:00.19
life we are here
we find such many,
00:25:00.22\00:25:02.66
so many imperfection
will be the end of all.
00:25:02.94\00:25:06.03
That would be a
really something we cannot
00:25:06.28\00:25:08.29
accept. Well the
Apostle Paul says if this is all
00:25:08.32\00:25:11.61
we bless people
to be pitted. Yeah.
00:25:11.64\00:25:14.63
We have to believe
something, we have to
00:25:14.66\00:25:16.41
believe. You know Even
if we not are prosecuted,
00:25:16.44\00:25:20.12
even if we're not prosecuted,
and what about justice,
00:25:20.32\00:25:24.45
he needs to believe in
that. What about people
00:25:24.48\00:25:26.27
who're killing other people,
who are torturing people,
00:25:26.30\00:25:28.94
You know they just
will die in their bed and
00:25:28.97\00:25:31.26
nothing will happen.
Well, that's the lamentive
00:25:31.29\00:25:34.71
of the jurists. Yeah. The
wicked get away with this,
00:25:34.74\00:25:39.42
there got to be some
punishment for those.
00:25:39.45\00:25:41.37
And the Bible
does hold that God says
00:25:41.40\00:25:44.24
you know I will
repay, vengeance is mine.
00:25:44.60\00:25:46.97
We don't know in what
way. We all like to have
00:25:47.00\00:25:50.14
the faith that
someone that abuses the child
00:25:50.17\00:25:52.73
or killed gratuitously
that they pay for it
00:25:52.76\00:25:55.63
somewhere. Yeah right.
You know justice is also
00:25:55.66\00:25:58.65
is something which
is important, love is
00:25:58.68\00:26:01.36
important but love
include justice too.
00:26:01.39\00:26:03.46
Yeah. Because you
love people and you love
00:26:03.82\00:26:05.82
well prosecuted
and I think Lincoln
00:26:05.85\00:26:08.96
what is important is
you have, we have the
00:26:09.47\00:26:12.64
right to share what
with believe including
00:26:12.67\00:26:15.93
the right. Not in a
way that it pinches others
00:26:15.96\00:26:18.47
personhood and their
spiritual right to believe
00:26:18.50\00:26:22.64
whatever. I will
defend the freedom
00:26:22.67\00:26:24.59
of expression, it
means I have no problem with
00:26:24.62\00:26:26.73
someone attacking me,
attacking what I believe.
00:26:26.76\00:26:29.50
I have no problem
with that. It gives me the
00:26:29.53\00:26:31.96
right to answer,
but at the same time as
00:26:31.99\00:26:34.88
a Christian, as a
believer I will be very careful
00:26:34.91\00:26:38.06
before provocating
you know the face or the
00:26:38.09\00:26:42.55
religion of someone
else, because you know
00:26:42.58\00:26:44.38
behind there is a
man, there is a pupil,
00:26:44.41\00:26:46.64
there is a woman and
I want to respect them.
00:26:46.67\00:26:49.05
We started this program
by talking about a threat
00:26:50.53\00:26:53.59
to burn the Qur'an
and someone in the studio
00:26:53.62\00:26:56.95
made a little
comment about burning love,
00:26:56.98\00:26:59.12
well burning someone's
holy book is not really
00:26:59.15\00:27:02.76
anything to do with
love, Christian or secular.
00:27:02.79\00:27:05.70
But I look back in the
Bible and one of the more
00:27:06.17\00:27:09.06
inspiring stories to
me are the three Hebrew
00:27:09.09\00:27:12.20
worthies as they're
called. Standing for their
00:27:12.23\00:27:14.76
faith and being ready
if called upon to have
00:27:14.79\00:27:18.60
their own bodies
burned in defensive of faith.
00:27:18.63\00:27:21.34
That's not a bad
concept. We're not called
00:27:21.85\00:27:25.49
to be suicide
bombers or anyone that throws
00:27:25.52\00:27:27.83
their life away, but
there might be time when
00:27:27.86\00:27:31.02
to stand for our fight
we will put our life on
00:27:31.05\00:27:34.09
the life and perhaps
even undergo the trial
00:27:34.12\00:27:36.98
by fire. But in dealing
with other people we call
00:27:37.01\00:27:40.81
to be charitable,
we're called to understand
00:27:40.84\00:27:43.70
their point of view to
the point of respecting
00:27:43.73\00:27:46.06
their humanity. We are
called to exemplify the
00:27:46.09\00:27:49.72
golden rule of doing
unto others as we would want
00:27:49.75\00:27:52.30
them to do under us.
And ultimately the burning
00:27:52.33\00:27:56.56
issue is how we
relate to other people,
00:27:56.59\00:27:59.92
what rights we grant to them.
00:28:00.16\00:28:02.77
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:04.34\00:28:07.25