Welcome to the
Liberty Insider, this is the
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program that brings
you up-to-date news, views,
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information,
discussion on religious
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liberty questions. My
name is Lincoln Steed,
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Editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest on the
program is Dr. John Graz.
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Yes. Dr. Graz, I wanna
talk a little bit about
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the United Nations with you.
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I'll give you a
chance to explain, but let me
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give you an
interesting illustration.
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United Nations for
many in the United States
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and I can't speak for
much of the rest of the world,
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but in the United States
more and more is just seen
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as a bunch of talking
heads that say something
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very irrelevant to what goes on
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in the country at
large. But recently people's
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attention was caught
by Ahmadinejad from Iran
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going on and on
about his private, yeah,
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Prophetic
Utterances of Islam. You know
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is that really the
role of the United Nations?
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You know United
Nations is the Nation together.
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It means people
come they represent their
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country and they can
speak. They can speak
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about, it's a forum
isn't it, people forget that.
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Yeah, exactly, it's a
forum. Of course there are
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many programs you know
run by the United Nations.
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Some are very,
very positive, you know
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a program to help
people, refugees and so many,
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many humanitarian programs.
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There is also a program
which is important is the
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defense and the
promotion of human rights.
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You know if you go to
Geneva, three times a year
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you have The
Council of Human Rights.
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It's a meeting where
all countries are there and
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as NGOs, It means Non
Governmental Organization.
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We have the right to
speak and we have the right to
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defend and to promote
religious freedom before
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the government of the
world. That, it gives us
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a fabulous
privilege. We have the right
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to make these
points. And you go through.
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Yeah we go, we
attend, we attend you know
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my Associate James
Standish. Then now my
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Associate Barry
Bussey represent us at the
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United Nation. It
means when he speaks you know
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he speaks before all
the Nation of the world
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and after you have
the possibility to meet
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Ambassadors,
Representatives and talk
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about some case and you
can help really. You can,
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when you speak you
know you speak about
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religious
freedom. You can say that
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people are
persecuted in this country.
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And after the
country, most of the time
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the countries
mentioned will answer, will say
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no its not true or most
of the time they will say
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it's not true, but you
know before they will ask
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their government.
What about this case
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and it means you'll
start, you open a dialogue
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with them and they are aware
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that people are looking at them.
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And I'm sure there
are some cases where they
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are not really
that sensitive to what's
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happening and when it's
explained in the way that
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we see it, they might
then be more inclined to go
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back and re-examine the
treatment of the segment.
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Exactly they have to
do that, because they want
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to give a rational
answer. Yes. And it means you
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know you cannot do
what you want to do, but
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of course the other side
is you know most of these
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Nation represented at
the Human Right Council
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are not really
respecting human rights.
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And they are the
majority most of the time
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and also sometime they
can propose a very dangerous
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low or not low, but
regulation or resolution.
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What recent
deformation of religion.
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Yeah which can become
low. You know this question
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about deformation of
religion. It was proposed
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in 1990 before
the year 2000 by the
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Islamic Organization.
A conference of Islamic.
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And Islamic the
major Islamic Organization.
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And what they wanted.
They wanted to propose
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to protect Islam
against critics and attacks,
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verbal attacks and they
proposed these resolutions
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and of course people
were aware that you cannot
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have a resolution
just to protect Islam.
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You have to, yeah
to protect religion,
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but it was mainly all
the Muslim countries which
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were behind. It
means you know it was a
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coalition of more
or less 50 countries.
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A very strong
coalition at the United Nation.
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And apparently it
seems to be a good resolution
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because it wants you
know the resolution wants
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to defend religious
religions to protect
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religion against
attack. But of course.
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Against deformation,
against deformation,
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but you have to
understand that it will
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give a strong
limit, strong restriction
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to the freedom
of expression. Yeah.
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And now you have two things.
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You want to protect
religions against attack
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or do you want the
freedom of expression and the
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right to say we
disagree with this religion.
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We don't believe what
this religion is teaching
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and that's a very
important point, because
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if you say okay we
have to protect religion,
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that's a good
point. But it means that
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what kind of
religion will be protected.
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Probably not the
small one. Right yeah.
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The big one and it
will be used. And it's in a
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prejudicial way, I mean
in reality to then other
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religious viewpoints.
Yeah. But we, this is a
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very bad development,
but the United Nations
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has been to the
forefront with its universal
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declaration of human
right. Yeah. Which is,
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And that is a good
statement in some ways
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equal, well I shouldn't
say better, but certainly
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equal to the
principles laid down in the U.S.
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Constitution of
freedom of religion.
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Yeah, you know the
influence of the Western
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countries and
especially the democracy after
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the second world
war was essential.
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It was done by
the U.S., the England
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and the other
Allies. You know it would be
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very difficult today
to have such a document.
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It was almost the
perfect documents at this time
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and today these
document, these declaration
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is attacked, of
course from the universal
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declaration of human
rights, you had several
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other very
important document taking the
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syntax like you know
about religious freedom.
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You have convention.
You know International
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Convention you have
many many of the documents
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taking Article 18 and
in many constitution in
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several countries you
know you have Article 18
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in their own constitution
and Article 18 is the best
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definition of
religious freedom. But today
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you know today several
governments attack these
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Article 18 and
universal declaration of human
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rights and of course the
United Nation is the place
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where you know you
have to be to protect and
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to defend these
human rights declarations.
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So you're comfortable
with the organization.
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You don't see it as
anti-critical just as
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civil religious
liberties. No I think we
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cannot have, yeah
we can a lot of critics
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and a lot of criticism
about the organization.
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You know it's too big,
they spend too much money.
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And it's a man made
convention or man made
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organization. It's not
very efficient, but as a
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forum that's a
very important point.
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It is worth
reminder some of our viewers
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who incline toward
conspiracy theories.
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The United Nations,
while it has plenty of troubles
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and some of the
voices that we hear
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there are troubling at times.
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The United Nations
doesn't really answer to the
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conspiracy theories
vision of the sinister
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worldwide
controlling organization.
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It's much weaker
than it would like to be.
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Oh! Yes. Then
it's founders intended.
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But it's unequal
forum for the nations
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to talk together.
Yes, exactly, exactly.
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You should attend
the meeting there to see
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the diversity and we are
far away from United body.
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You know that's
incredible. It's a place
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where people are
very different. They are
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opposing all the
time, most of the time you
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know and but for us
you can imagine for us
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a small group, you
know having the possibility
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to speak to the
world nations. You know its
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United Nation for
us. That's a fabulous
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opportunity and
we have to take it.
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We have to take
advantage of it. We made people
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imagine just a
place where you have maybe
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400 people and these
400 people represent all the
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government of the world.
It's amazing. And you are
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in and you have the
right to talk with them.
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You have the right to
talk about religious freedom.
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You have the right to
talk about your church,
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you have the right
to visit the Ambassador.
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Most of them they
expect it. They expect,
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they expect, they
respect you. You know when you
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go there, they don't say
who are you. They will say
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hey how are you doing.
That's we NGO credentials.
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Mr. Ambassador or Mr. Minister,
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Mr. Ambassador. I represent
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the Adventist
Church. I represent the
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International
Religious Liberty Association
00:09:09.77\00:09:12.38
and we have some
problems in your country.
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You know what you
could have done to reach
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to the same result
outside of the United Nations
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and this is why we need them.
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I think it
providential that we have that.
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Exactly, it's providential.
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We need to have,
to understand that.
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That's a fabulous
opportunity it may not
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last all the time. The
organization is far away
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to be a perfect
organization. There are
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many, many weak
point, weak aspect of these
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organization, but it
gives us the possibility to talk
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with the representative
of the Nations of the world,
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about us and
about religious freedom.
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Exactly, for those
who don't know the history
00:09:51.71\00:09:54.42
it seems to me from my
reading of history that
00:09:54.45\00:09:56.77
President Wilson's grand
idea the League of Nation
00:09:56.80\00:10:00.57
was far more what
people accuse United Nations
00:10:01.18\00:10:05.93
of wanting to
be. It was a league,
00:10:05.96\00:10:08.13
a political
league for control of
00:10:08.16\00:10:11.44
some of the
activities of the nations.
00:10:11.47\00:10:12.95
The United Nations was designed
00:10:12.98\00:10:15.69
to create a forum.
Yes. And somewhere I think
00:10:15.72\00:10:19.18
it's not as
prominent as it should be,
00:10:19.21\00:10:20.82
as that statement
about they shall beat
00:10:21.19\00:10:22.75
these swords into
plashes and so on.
00:10:22.78\00:10:24.68
So it was a
pessimist egalitarian vision
00:10:24.71\00:10:28.10
that they have there.
Lincoln, it was the answer
00:10:28.13\00:10:30.35
to the two world wars.
Yeah. You know the first
00:10:30.38\00:10:33.91
world war, people say
we should do something.
00:10:33.94\00:10:37.12
We should speak
together when we have a problem
00:10:37.44\00:10:39.73
instead to fight and
the result is million,
00:10:39.76\00:10:42.27
million, million
people are killed.
00:10:42.30\00:10:44.06
You know the first
world was terrible about that.
00:10:44.45\00:10:47.38
Right. It kills Europe.
We should talk together,
00:10:47.41\00:10:50.10
we should find a
place where people can talk
00:10:50.13\00:10:52.75
together and the
second world war was almost
00:10:52.78\00:10:56.07
the worst you know.
Yeah. We put all the world
00:10:56.10\00:10:59.04
upside down and they said no,
00:10:59.48\00:11:01.50
now we have to talk together.
00:11:01.53\00:11:02.89
We have to avoid this kind.
00:11:02.92\00:11:04.88
But my point is the
first one the league
00:11:05.06\00:11:07.02
was between the two wars. Yeah.
00:11:07.05\00:11:08.74
The League of
Nations and I think it was a
00:11:08.77\00:11:10.67
continuation of what
caused world war one,
00:11:10.70\00:11:12.90
unbridled alliances,
it's the great power. Yeah.
00:11:14.29\00:11:17.66
It's thinking they can
order the world and now
00:11:17.69\00:11:19.09
we're gonna bring them
all into one organization,
00:11:19.12\00:11:20.76
the League of Nations. Yeah.
00:11:21.19\00:11:22.74
It was the
Alliances that caused it.
00:11:22.77\00:11:24.63
But after the
total destruction of
00:11:24.66\00:11:26.55
world war two, I
think then it was wow,
00:11:26.58\00:11:29.24
the world's
fallen down around areas.
00:11:29.27\00:11:31.03
Let's have a real
forum for discussion.
00:11:31.35\00:11:33.72
That was the only
place where some countries
00:11:33.98\00:11:36.72
have the
possibility to talk together.
00:11:36.75\00:11:38.74
Even if they oppose,
if they attack each other
00:11:38.77\00:11:41.17
they still have
the possibility to
00:11:41.20\00:11:43.73
to talk to each
other. Yeah and unfortunately
00:11:43.76\00:11:48.23
some of the
constituency in the U.S.
00:11:48.26\00:11:49.85
now and then say
well Cuba or some one they
00:11:50.37\00:11:52.42
shouldn't talk
there, but why not.
00:11:52.45\00:11:54.51
It's precisely
because we have got these
00:11:54.54\00:11:56.94
enemies or these
people that really
00:11:56.97\00:11:58.82
logically opposed, why
not give them the chance
00:11:58.85\00:12:00.93
where we can see them
face to face and explain
00:12:00.96\00:12:03.11
our viewpoint
here, because often
00:12:03.14\00:12:05.28
communication is
needed. And you can imagine the
00:12:05.31\00:12:07.87
role of a country like
the U.S. defending human
00:12:07.90\00:12:10.74
rights before all the
government of the world
00:12:10.77\00:12:13.85
saying the human right
is important, religious
00:12:13.88\00:12:16.76
freedom is important.
It's a very important role
00:12:16.79\00:12:19.27
and
responsibility. Exactly, exactly
00:12:19.30\00:12:22.28
and I'm so glad
that we have a full time
00:12:22.54\00:12:24.12
or very close to a
full time representatives
00:12:24.15\00:12:26.79
there from your
office Barry Bussey, yeah,
00:12:26.82\00:12:30.06
is gonna carry on
this liaison which is in
00:12:30.09\00:12:32.15
New York and in
Geneva. Yeah. So that there are
00:12:32.18\00:12:36.51
many things to cover
and I know you do it too
00:12:36.54\00:12:39.07
of course, but that's
his lead role. After the
00:12:39.10\00:12:43.26
break we'll come back
and discuss a little bit
00:12:43.29\00:12:45.57
more some of these
important global issues,
00:12:45.60\00:12:47.60
but thank you for
staying with Liberty Insider.
00:12:47.63\00:12:51.57
One-hundred years, a
long time to do anything
00:13:01.71\00:13:05.24
much less publish a
magazine, but this year
00:13:05.67\00:13:08.28
Liberty, the
Seventh-Day Adventist voice of
00:13:08.70\00:13:11.25
religious freedom,
celebrates one hundred
00:13:11.28\00:13:13.61
years of doing what
it does best, collecting,
00:13:13.64\00:13:16.43
analyzing, and
reporting the ebb and flow of
00:13:16.70\00:13:19.47
religious
expression around the world.
00:13:19.50\00:13:21.50
Issue after issues,
Liberty has taken on the
00:13:21.90\00:13:25.12
tough assignments,
tracking down threats
00:13:25.15\00:13:27.28
to religious
freedom and exposing the
00:13:27.31\00:13:28.94
work of the devil in
every corner of the globe.
00:13:28.97\00:13:31.50
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:31.88\00:13:34.41
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom
00:13:34.84\00:13:37.07
issues sequestered
within the church community
00:13:37.10\00:13:39.06
itself have been
clearly and honestly exposed.
00:13:39.09\00:13:42.00
Liberty exists for
one purpose to help
00:13:42.80\00:13:45.43
God's people maintain
that all the important
00:13:45.46\00:13:48.19
separation of Church
and State, while recognizing
00:13:48.22\00:13:51.20
the dangers
inherent in such a struggle.
00:13:51.23\00:13:53.48
During the past
century, Liberty has experienced
00:13:54.27\00:13:56.66
challenges of its own,
but it remains on the job.
00:13:56.69\00:13:59.74
Thanks to the inspired
leadership of a long line
00:14:00.28\00:14:02.83
of dedicated
Adventist Editors, three of whom
00:14:02.86\00:14:05.13
represent almost
half of the publications
00:14:05.16\00:14:07.19
existence and the
foresight of a little
00:14:07.22\00:14:09.45
woman from New England.
00:14:09.48\00:14:10.87
One hundred years of struggle,
00:14:11.22\00:14:13.12
one hundred years of victories,
00:14:13.15\00:14:15.19
religious freedom
isn't just about political
00:14:15.58\00:14:18.05
machines and
cultural prejudices.
00:14:18.08\00:14:20.03
It's about people
fighting for the right to serve
00:14:20.43\00:14:23.83
the God they
love as their hearts
00:14:23.86\00:14:26.19
and the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:26.22\00:14:28.38
Thanks to the
prayers and generous support
00:14:28.77\00:14:30.68
of Seventh-Day
Adventists everywhere.
00:14:30.71\00:14:32.77
Liberty will continue
to accomplish its work of
00:14:33.07\00:14:35.57
providing timely information,
00:14:35.60\00:14:37.18
spirit filled
inspiration, and heaven sent
00:14:37.39\00:14:39.75
encouragement to all
who long to live and work
00:14:39.78\00:14:43.32
in a world bound
together by the God
00:14:43.66\00:14:46.20
ordained bonds of
religious freedom.
00:14:46.23\00:14:49.17
Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider,
00:14:57.99\00:14:59.76
before the
break we were talking,
00:15:00.21\00:15:01.51
I was talking with
Dr. John Graz about the
00:15:01.54\00:15:03.79
United Nations and
the opportunity that that
00:15:03.82\00:15:06.44
organization provides
for us, our church for
00:15:06.47\00:15:09.19
religious liberty
representatives to
00:15:09.22\00:15:11.25
dialogue with
representatives from
00:15:11.28\00:15:13.85
countries all over the
world. It's a fantastic
00:15:13.88\00:15:16.39
organization. Yeah,
I don't, I will not say
00:15:16.42\00:15:19.23
it's a fantastic organization.
00:15:19.26\00:15:20.68
I will say it's a
fantastic opportunity.
00:15:20.71\00:15:22.59
Exactly I thought
any number of people
00:15:22.62\00:15:25.93
would criticize. Yeah because,
00:15:25.96\00:15:26.93
we are not sure
that it's a fantastic.
00:15:26.94\00:15:28.22
But what I mean is
it provides a fantastic
00:15:28.25\00:15:30.57
opportunity. It
provides oh yeah, oh yeah.
00:15:30.60\00:15:31.57
You know it has never
happened in all history
00:15:31.86\00:15:35.24
to have all the
countries together for civil
00:15:35.27\00:15:37.66
meetings and so on
talking to each other.
00:15:37.69\00:15:40.24
That's also
something very interesting.
00:15:40.49\00:15:42.16
And it has to be a
grand aspiration of mankind.
00:15:42.19\00:15:43.97
Yeah, but now you know
those who represent that
00:15:44.00\00:15:46.34
these countries are
together, they are united
00:15:46.37\00:15:48.93
and they want to
dominate the world.
00:15:48.96\00:15:50.59
That's not where
it is today. Well.
00:15:51.50\00:15:53.55
A lot of
division, a lot of conflict,
00:15:53.58\00:15:55.83
a lot of. It's not
quite to say you know
00:15:55.86\00:15:57.15
some of these fanciful
Science Fiction Movies,
00:15:57.18\00:15:59.27
they always have
a global council.
00:15:59.30\00:16:01.68
It maybe the
dream of some people.
00:16:01.71\00:16:03.60
You know probably
you know some people are
00:16:03.63\00:16:05.75
dreaming about you know
if I could be the leader.
00:16:05.78\00:16:09.13
The great leader of such
organization, but its far
00:16:09.54\00:16:13.15
more complicated
than that. Exactly.
00:16:13.18\00:16:15.49
You don't know what
I'm going to bring up next,
00:16:18.90\00:16:20.31
but I'd like to
hear your comment on
00:16:20.34\00:16:22.62
part of the world
not quite a united part,
00:16:23.65\00:16:26.26
but it's under
the European Union,
00:16:26.29\00:16:27.84
so they are
trying for their union.
00:16:27.87\00:16:29.59
In the European Union
we've seen a phenomenon
00:16:29.95\00:16:32.80
where countries that
once were very religious,
00:16:32.83\00:16:36.34
but now seem quite
secular. Secular yeah.
00:16:36.37\00:16:39.06
But spontaneously,
we'll see how spontaneously,
00:16:39.09\00:16:43.09
but popping up in
different countries
00:16:43.12\00:16:44.89
has a been a call for a
00:16:45.14\00:16:46.83
sort of a national day of rest.
00:16:47.79\00:16:49.45
A family day of
rest. Yeah, yeah it means
00:16:49.48\00:16:52.44
you know it was,
there is a story behind.
00:16:52.95\00:16:55.51
In Europe, in most of
the country you have what
00:16:55.84\00:16:58.27
we call the Sunday Law.
It means normally in most
00:16:58.30\00:17:01.46
of the European country,
you don't work on Sunday.
00:17:01.49\00:17:04.49
Even in some
countries like Switzerland
00:17:04.91\00:17:07.16
where I lived ten
years you know in Bern.
00:17:07.19\00:17:10.93
The Canton of Bern.
You know you have no right
00:17:10.96\00:17:13.62
to make, to garden on Sunday.
00:17:13.65\00:17:15.91
You have no right to
use your vehicle on Sunday.
00:17:15.94\00:17:19.30
They have many restrictions on
00:17:19.33\00:17:20.57
on many many
things, but people go to the
00:17:20.60\00:17:23.33
you know winter station,
a resort or they do many
00:17:23.36\00:17:26.33
many other things and
it is not against to those
00:17:26.36\00:17:29.95
who don't work on
Saturday. It means it
00:17:29.98\00:17:32.28
doesn't affect us. You
know it means just don't
00:17:32.31\00:17:36.21
work on Sunday and you
will have peace, you will
00:17:36.24\00:17:38.46
have no problems on
Saturday, but you know
00:17:38.49\00:17:40.94
some of the
countries try to change that.
00:17:41.52\00:17:44.12
And especially
the business world.
00:17:44.49\00:17:46.89
They would like to
have Sunday open for any
00:17:46.92\00:17:50.29
kind of business.
Because now in some countries
00:17:50.32\00:17:53.03
except Sunday. The exception is,
00:17:54.00\00:17:55.65
if you are living
in a touristic place
00:17:55.68\00:17:58.16
you can have a
shop open on the Sunday,
00:17:58.19\00:18:01.05
but if you are not you cannot.
00:18:01.41\00:18:03.36
It means in the city
like Lausanne, if your shop
00:18:03.39\00:18:06.96
is close to the
beach or not to the beach
00:18:07.37\00:18:09.71
to the lake it
listed as a touristic place.
00:18:09.74\00:18:13.45
You can open and of
course you make a lot of
00:18:13.80\00:18:15.89
money, but the other
one just the opposite
00:18:15.92\00:18:18.27
you know just you
cross the street your shop
00:18:18.30\00:18:21.11
is not classified as touristic.
00:18:21.14\00:18:24.11
You have no right to
open your shop on Sunday.
00:18:24.14\00:18:27.40
It means people
you know say why,
00:18:27.72\00:18:29.38
why you have this
kind of exception.
00:18:29.76\00:18:31.49
Everyone should be,
should have the right
00:18:31.80\00:18:33.88
to open their shops
on Sunday and people
00:18:33.91\00:18:37.21
will come and they
will buy and you will
00:18:37.24\00:18:39.28
have more employment.
This is why in many states.
00:18:39.31\00:18:43.11
You know that's the
tendency, but yet the.
00:18:44.78\00:18:45.75
The State say we
should open on Sunday.
00:18:45.76\00:18:46.73
This law if it can be
called a law is to carve
00:18:46.74\00:18:49.32
out Sunday as a family
it's not a work day. Yeah,
00:18:49.35\00:18:51.96
it means you know now
to continue the story and
00:18:51.99\00:18:55.50
I think it was in 2003
the European Working Rules
00:18:55.53\00:19:00.58
you know the rules
about the work, workers in
00:19:00.61\00:19:03.58
Europe. It take off in
the text the word Sunday.
00:19:03.61\00:19:08.64
They say that you
know why we should rest on
00:19:08.67\00:19:10.83
Sunday. You know that's
important for the workers
00:19:10.86\00:19:13.82
to rest, but if you put
Sunday it's really already
00:19:13.85\00:19:17.44
religious and they took
off Sunday. In a sense for
00:19:17.47\00:19:21.52
good and right reason.
Yeah for the right reason
00:19:21.55\00:19:23.83
saying that there is
no special day. You know
00:19:23.86\00:19:26.11
which is important is
to rest for the worker.
00:19:26.14\00:19:29.84
They need to rest for
the family. The reaction of
00:19:29.87\00:19:32.59
the union and especially
the religions and I'm sure
00:19:32.62\00:19:36.29
that the religious
organization and churches
00:19:36.32\00:19:38.75
show these items as opportunity.
00:19:38.78\00:19:41.12
Yeah an opportunity to
say hey we are still here.
00:19:41.29\00:19:43.78
But they didn't know,
they didn't create this.
00:19:43.81\00:19:45.48
No, no, no. This
bubbled up from a more
00:19:45.79\00:19:47.56
secular rational, but
they joined. And they don't
00:19:47.59\00:19:50.68
come from religious
reason you know they say
00:19:50.71\00:19:54.13
that's you know on
a family life, on a
00:19:54.16\00:19:57.29
psychological life and
so on. It's good to have a
00:19:57.32\00:20:01.27
Sunday as a day of a
rest and they ask and they
00:20:01.30\00:20:04.12
propose a new resolution.
They would like Sunday
00:20:04.15\00:20:07.51
be back in the text about
the day of rest in Europe.
00:20:07.84\00:20:11.28
And there was for
the moment they're
00:20:11.61\00:20:12.96
a minority, but you
know as you say the religious
00:20:12.99\00:20:15.79
group the churches saw as
an opportunity in a secret
00:20:15.82\00:20:21.30
society to say a we are
still here, we don't want
00:20:21.33\00:20:24.56
to let you to do what
you want, we are still in.
00:20:24.59\00:20:26.74
Now Lincoln, there is a
question what do we have
00:20:26.93\00:20:29.82
to do if we disagree with that.
00:20:29.85\00:20:31.61
I know it's a case 22.
I think for Seventh Day
00:20:31.96\00:20:35.98
Adventists who have
an understanding that the
00:20:36.01\00:20:38.61
year of compulsion of
the middle ages will be
00:20:38.64\00:20:41.07
revisited at the very
end of time probably even in
00:20:41.10\00:20:44.39
the United States and
Sunday is likely to be,
00:20:44.42\00:20:47.06
Sunday worship is
likely to be the main issue.
00:20:47.09\00:20:49.87
We see this is very
telling, yeah for us.
00:20:50.17\00:20:52.54
But on it's own certain
merits, I'm not sure you
00:20:52.57\00:20:55.03
you can easily oppose
it. You know what I should
00:20:55.06\00:20:57.41
say it was by advise
to our European friends
00:20:57.44\00:21:02.22
and when they ask the
question. I should say
00:21:02.25\00:21:04.23
that don't oppose to
these resolution, but, but ask
00:21:04.26\00:21:08.86
them. What about
those who don't have Sunday
00:21:08.89\00:21:12.46
as a day of rest.
Yeah. It means we understand
00:21:12.49\00:21:15.29
you, you know you have
a good reason, you know
00:21:15.32\00:21:17.87
that is part of
our tradition in Europe
00:21:17.90\00:21:19.91
and so on. But you
know remember there are
00:21:19.94\00:21:23.37
other people, other
believers who don't have
00:21:23.40\00:21:26.70
Sunday as a day of
rest, what about them?
00:21:26.73\00:21:28.69
and I would propose
to those who are behind
00:21:28.99\00:21:31.98
these resolution to
put something about those
00:21:32.01\00:21:35.42
who don't have
Sunday as a day of rest.
00:21:35.45\00:21:37.34
It means we want to
Sunday back, but we want people
00:21:37.37\00:21:40.59
the day of rest of
other people be respected too,
00:21:40.62\00:21:44.81
and this is what they
did. And do you know they did,
00:21:44.84\00:21:47.79
but of course you
know those who are
00:21:47.99\00:21:50.16
pushing to have these
resolution, Sunday back
00:21:50.73\00:21:53.27
said no we, we cannot
do that and in this case
00:21:53.80\00:21:57.37
we will oppose.
Who will say we have a
00:21:57.40\00:21:59.65
good reason. Yes,
because they have revealed
00:21:59.68\00:22:01.36
themselves and
pushing for particular.
00:22:01.39\00:22:03.36
It will open to a
discrimination and in this
00:22:03.39\00:22:06.31
case we will oppose,
but we want to be sure that
00:22:06.34\00:22:09.23
if you know, if they
maintain that they will
00:22:09.81\00:22:13.03
also add. You know
they are other people, other
00:22:13.06\00:22:16.00
believer and that they
all should be also respected.
00:22:16.03\00:22:20.01
Now my reading of the
dynamic of what's going on
00:22:20.28\00:22:23.34
is that there is a
certain sub-text where this is
00:22:23.37\00:22:25.96
trying to belatedly
I think define these
00:22:26.52\00:22:30.53
European countries
as Christian, because
00:22:30.56\00:22:33.26
culturally Christian.
Yeah. Because the Islamic
00:22:33.29\00:22:36.26
migrations and so on.
You know they're clearly
00:22:36.92\00:22:39.08
not gonna choose
Friday. That would signal
00:22:39.11\00:22:41.73
toward another
religion. Yeah exactly.
00:22:41.76\00:22:44.03
And Saturday
would be Jewish, because
00:22:44.06\00:22:46.61
the mid days don't made
anything, so I think it's
00:22:46.64\00:22:49.64
sort of natural and it
suits the cultural unease,
00:22:49.67\00:22:53.08
that they feel under
some. Tradition you know
00:22:53.11\00:22:55.22
Sunday has a strong
tradition in Europe and
00:22:55.25\00:22:58.49
of course as you
said and I believe,
00:22:58.52\00:23:01.63
I believe that it's a
fabulous opportunity for
00:23:01.66\00:23:04.89
the Christian
coalition. You know to say hey
00:23:04.92\00:23:07.68
you believe we
disappear but we are still here,
00:23:08.08\00:23:10.71
we are still here and
we want really to fight
00:23:10.74\00:23:13.41
for that. And I have
often spoken about this
00:23:13.44\00:23:16.18
type of thing on
this program, because
00:23:16.21\00:23:18.32
I remember when I was
a kid in Australia and in
00:23:18.35\00:23:21.87
the U.S. we had
number of blue type laws that
00:23:21.90\00:23:24.62
restricted as you
mentioned in Switzerland.
00:23:24.65\00:23:27.67
Restricted activities
on Sunday and some well
00:23:27.70\00:23:31.21
meaning Seventh Day
Adventist challenged them.
00:23:31.24\00:23:32.94
Will do their
gardening publicly flattered.
00:23:32.97\00:23:35.83
Yeah, yeah. I don't
think that's profitable myself.
00:23:35.86\00:23:38.25
Oh! I think Ellen
White is very clear about it.
00:23:38.28\00:23:40.27
Yes of course. You
don't have to provoke.
00:23:40.30\00:23:41.75
Adventist
pathfinder Ellen White advised
00:23:42.18\00:23:44.86
Adventists not to
provoke. Yeah. Even though
00:23:44.89\00:23:47.78
we might see it as a
dynamic that's tending
00:23:47.81\00:23:50.06
toward compelling a
certain form of worship.
00:23:50.09\00:23:52.56
You know. On it's own
merits it's not really
00:23:52.59\00:23:54.85
doing that at all
because it doesn't require
00:23:54.88\00:23:56.79
you to worship on
another day. I would understand
00:23:56.82\00:24:00.45
if you really, if you fight for
00:24:00.78\00:24:03.14
religious freedom. I
would understand that
00:24:03.17\00:24:05.13
you provoke you know
in working on the Sunday
00:24:05.16\00:24:07.72
just to provoke, but as
a church I should say that
00:24:07.75\00:24:11.47
we have to be wiser than
that. We don't want to be
00:24:11.50\00:24:15.17
burning any
Qurans. Yeah, yeah exactly.
00:24:15.20\00:24:17.67
Is this a classics
act of provocation.
00:24:17.70\00:24:19.80
Yeah because at the
end you know the church
00:24:19.83\00:24:21.63
will be the target and
you know when you don't
00:24:21.66\00:24:24.66
control the press or
some of the people control,
00:24:24.69\00:24:27.59
you can be a
really, you can have,
00:24:27.62\00:24:29.53
you can spend all your
time defending yourself.
00:24:29.56\00:24:32.04
And this is something
that we have to understand.
00:24:32.22\00:24:34.52
If you provoke people
as a church. You will spend
00:24:34.81\00:24:38.46
all your time not
to preach the gospel,
00:24:38.49\00:24:40.75
but to defend
yourself. You will spend million
00:24:40.78\00:24:44.08
and million dollars
just to defend yourself.
00:24:44.11\00:24:45.62
And religious liberty
at least our advancing
00:24:45.65\00:24:48.66
it in defending some
of religious liberty.
00:24:48.69\00:24:50.56
It's all to clear the
way for them to practice
00:24:50.59\00:24:53.31
their faith and the
whole point as a Christian
00:24:53.34\00:24:55.88
is to proclaim.
Exactly. The point of it is not
00:24:55.91\00:24:58.44
to win a legal battle
that you have protected in
00:24:58.47\00:25:01.50
the workplace however
that might be necessary
00:25:01.53\00:25:03.70
given the, in this
case the U.S. Constitution
00:25:04.16\00:25:07.06
say it makes the
claim while you are coming
00:25:07.09\00:25:11.48
and saying you'd
honor your claim for
00:25:11.51\00:25:13.90
religious freedom, but
that's not what religious
00:25:13.93\00:25:15.80
liberty is about. Yeah.
00:25:15.83\00:25:17.02
That's to help facilitate
it. But it is all about
00:25:17.05\00:25:19.93
proclaiming a great
truth to a larger audience.
00:25:19.96\00:25:23.07
Which means that
we have to be sure to
00:25:23.29\00:25:26.75
understand very
well about this strategy.
00:25:26.78\00:25:28.59
You know if I
defend religious freedom on
00:25:28.62\00:25:31.06
behalf of the
International Religious
00:25:31.09\00:25:32.78
Liberty Association.
I may really provoke
00:25:32.81\00:25:35.52
because thinking
that's the best strategy.
00:25:35.55\00:25:38.44
But when I'm
represent the church have to be
00:25:38.72\00:25:42.09
wise and not to spend
time just to justify things
00:25:42.70\00:25:47.59
which are not really
the mission of the church.
00:25:47.62\00:25:49.58
And maybe it's the
time to interject again
00:25:49.61\00:25:51.88
a reminder of the
department. You know it's
00:25:51.91\00:25:53.86
not just the
Religious Liberty Department.
00:25:53.89\00:25:55.56
It's public affairs,
yeah. Which is looking
00:25:55.59\00:25:57.80
after the interest
of the Adventist church
00:25:57.83\00:25:59.83
not in a PR sense,
but using mechanisms to
00:25:59.86\00:26:03.45
promote what the
church stands for.
00:26:03.48\00:26:05.74
And sometimes
public statements about
00:26:06.07\00:26:08.16
positions on
doctrine or moral issues.
00:26:08.69\00:26:10.86
And you know. It's not
Religious Liberty per say,
00:26:11.05\00:26:13.08
but it's public
affairs. Yeah when we have
00:26:13.11\00:26:14.95
issued a public
statement we are very balanced
00:26:14.98\00:26:17.65
and we try really to
avoid provoking people.
00:26:17.68\00:26:21.21
But you know in spite
of that to say what we want
00:26:21.83\00:26:24.27
to say. You know I
think that there is no,
00:26:24.30\00:26:27.40
nothing wrong in meeting people,
00:26:27.43\00:26:29.50
in being part of not coalition.
00:26:29.95\00:26:33.22
Coalition you
have to be very careful
00:26:33.25\00:26:34.92
about what does
it mean, but meeting,
00:26:34.95\00:26:37.66
taking the opportunity
of being part of their
00:26:38.01\00:26:40.78
meeting and
representing what you believe
00:26:40.81\00:26:42.84
as long as you know
what you believe and as
00:26:43.28\00:26:45.47
long as you are
faithful about what you believe.
00:26:45.50\00:26:47.69
There is a classic
scene that you can read in the
00:26:50.07\00:26:52.61
Book of Job where there
is a council in heaven and
00:26:52.64\00:26:56.45
among the other
representatives Satan
00:26:56.93\00:26:58.86
turns up and God
asks him where have you
00:26:58.89\00:27:01.76
come from? And he
says oh from wandering up
00:27:01.79\00:27:03.86
and down upon the
earth and then gives a pretty
00:27:03.89\00:27:06.68
sad report of what
he's found down here on this
00:27:06.71\00:27:10.25
sweet earth of us.
You know sometimes you can
00:27:10.28\00:27:13.54
wonder whether the
United Nations might not
00:27:13.57\00:27:15.55
be that same juxtaposition
of high ideals and some
00:27:15.58\00:27:20.07
pretty devilish
bit players who really
00:27:20.10\00:27:22.74
shouldn't be there.
But just as in heaven where
00:27:22.77\00:27:25.08
God wants to hear from
all the parties involved
00:27:25.11\00:27:27.93
in human endeavors.
It's actually a positive
00:27:29.17\00:27:32.15
for the nations to
come together and as you've
00:27:32.59\00:27:35.04
heard on this
program it is definitely
00:27:35.07\00:27:37.46
an opportunity for
us to talk to them about
00:27:37.49\00:27:39.96
religious freedom
and it is an opportunity
00:27:39.99\00:27:42.22
to share with
some very desperate,
00:27:42.25\00:27:44.24
political and
religious constituencies.
00:27:44.51\00:27:47.59
Of religious viewpoint
and perhaps even as the
00:27:47.91\00:27:51.12
occasion ones to
express and to share faith in
00:27:51.15\00:27:54.54
Jesus Christ. Something
a little higher than just
00:27:54.57\00:27:57.46
a council of the
nations or a controlling
00:27:57.49\00:28:00.44
authority for political powers.
00:28:00.47\00:28:02.79
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:04.80\00:28:07.41