Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), John Graz
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000115
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:23 This is the program that brings you up 00:25 to date news, views, discussion and information 00:28 religious liberty issues. My name is Lincoln Steed, 00:31 editor of Liberty Magazine, and my guest on the 00:34 program again not a new comer it's 00:37 Dr. John Graz. Always a pleasure to be with 00:39 you Lincoln. Welcome to the program. 00:40 Lets, since you are, is head of our 00:44 Seventh-day Adventist Church Religious Liberty 00:46 Department as well as few other hats since you 00:49 are involved in global religious issues. 00:52 Let's have some discussion about some of the 00:55 very interesting developments that I see 00:56 recently in the largest Christian denomination, 00:59 the Roman Catholic Church. I read a news item 01:04 just a few days ago about dissident, 01:07 well they're not dissident priests because they, the 01:08 priests in the Catholic Church are only males, 01:12 yeah, but some women have assumed priestly 01:16 roles and has been exacerbated by the church 01:18 but are leading all those priests in breakaway 01:21 Catholic communities. What do you make of this? 01:26 On, on the point of religious freedom, 01:28 I think, every church has every organization 01:32 including religious organization has the 01:34 right to, to follow their roles, you know and 01:37 to decide what kind of rule? It means that's not 01:39 a problem of religious freedom. 01:41 It's an internal problem to the Catholic Church 01:45 and for me you know I will not say anything except 01:48 that may be on the other part we can argue 01:51 is it correct, is this according to the Bible 01:53 and so on, but the point of view of religious 01:56 freedom they have the right to decide as long 01:58 as they don't prosecute people? 02:00 Okay I was about to throw in spilling my question. 02:04 You mean they can, have the inquisition again yeah, 02:07 and send these poor ladies to a dungeon somewhere. 02:10 You know the problem of the inquisition is, 02:11 you had no alternative, right. 02:13 You had no other church, you had no alternative; 02:15 it means you can decide that if you don't follow 02:18 the roles you cannot be part of our movement 02:21 of our church, that's okay. But, if you decide 02:24 that and you say that you cannot be part 02:26 of our movement which means that you have 02:29 no space for you, you will be arrested and you 02:31 will be prosecuted. Well that's another story. 02:33 I was thinking of Ellen White quote when she warns 02:35 against a Sunday Law being, being brought 02:39 in and she says that civil penalties upon the centre 02:43 will be applied, yes exactly, and that was 02:45 the inquisition. It was a church but when, 02:47 when you are condemned by the church, 02:49 then civil penalties will apply. Yes, yes exactly. 02:51 But yeah, you're very right and we need to 02:53 remind our viewers and those that believe 02:56 in religious liberty that any church has a right 02:59 to create their own rules, you know doctrinal 03:03 or behavioral norm within, within the group and 03:07 those that don't hear to it, yes, they seems to 03:10 be a member. Imagine that you want to be a 03:13 member of basketball club and you play football 03:16 and they would say hey there's another place 03:18 to play football. Well maybe, but of course it 03:21 works in the context of freedom. 03:23 It means you've the right to do something else 03:26 but that the example you gave is right you know 03:28 when the church dominate the society you'll 03:31 have no right, it means, if you were not in 03:34 you disappear. By the way this is, 03:36 I didn't plan on mentioning but it does remind 03:38 me of a very pivotal case recently with the 03:41 Christian Legal Society at a lower school 03:48 as the name implies a Christian, 03:50 a group of Christian students were meeting 03:52 on campus, and non Christians, 03:55 seculars guys and others wanted to join and 03:59 I said well this is just for Christians, for Christians, 04:01 but the Supreme Court has actually held, that, 04:05 that they cannot restrict the membership, 04:08 anybody can join. So, I think some of the norms 04:12 in society are working against what we say, 04:14 and what we just said that we may find, 04:19 for example within the Seventh-day Adventists 04:21 or indeed any Christian religious group, 04:24 they maybe forced by the state to accept 04:28 ministers of a certain moral, doctrinal equation 04:31 that's not acceptable to us. But, but certainly 04:34 is a matter of religious freedom it's, 04:36 it's very legitimate to have doctrinal and 04:39 organizational integrity. That's not persecution, 04:42 yeah no, when someone's out of harmony and 04:44 they remove them. If you disagree you know, 04:46 if you disagree, you're a member of a church, 04:48 you disagree with that church, 04:49 through a a several ways you know, 04:50 you have inside every church organization or 04:53 religious organization, a way to deal with people 04:57 who disagree, it means you can open a discursion. Now 04:59 if they majority decide that no we don't accept 05:03 your ID you have to just follow or you, you maybe, 05:06 you may do something else around you know 05:09 outside of your organization or you may 05:11 stay in the organization as opponent. 05:15 But you know, you cannot say that you are 05:17 prosecutor, of course if the church or the 05:19 organization use you know a prosecution, 05:23 they prosecute you, they force you to leave using 05:26 you know, the things which are not legal, 05:30 that is really problem. Well and that's a matter 05:32 of acceptable social human behavior, 05:34 accepted behavior, yes, not really church 05:35 structure. But yes, on one level this, 05:38 this phenomenon with these would be women 05:41 priests, women priests, because I, 05:45 well you know it's an internal issue, 05:46 I think as we look though at religious phenomenal 05:49 it has a certain significance and, 05:51 and the Roman Catholic Church which has been 05:54 on authoritarian structure, is having a lot 05:57 of trouble maintaining doctrinal integrity. 06:02 You know I think that what you say you know 06:04 I remember I was in, I attended the Lutheran 06:08 World Federation Assembly, I was invited and they 06:11 asked me to give the greetings on behalf 06:13 of the Adventist Church. They gave me three 06:16 minutes in their world assembly. I have received 06:19 the same with the Reform World Assembly and 06:22 the Baptist World Alliance Assembly. 06:25 It's a very good opportunity to remind 06:26 them of Adventists and their work. 06:29 Yeah we invited them to you know it means, 06:31 it's like a chat but you know giving a three 06:33 minutes in the world assembly of course 06:36 people say hey the Adventists are here and 06:39 after they asked me a questions that was 06:42 a very good, very good, opportunity. 06:44 But I want to come back to the Lutheran 06:47 World Federation Assembly, you know, 06:49 they decided to repent about the prosecution 06:52 of the Mennonites, which happened in the 16th 06:55 century that, that's it's, it gives us a good 06:58 illustration about what you said. 07:01 You know in the 16th century after the, 07:04 the Treaty of Versailles and so, several treaties 07:06 there, they decided that as they were not able 07:10 to exterminate each other, they decided that 07:12 in some countries you know if the king is a 07:14 Catholic, the population will be Catholic, 07:17 people will be Catholic. The king is Protestant, 07:19 they will be Protestants. It's amazing how 07:21 people have that automatic identification, 07:23 yeah, and you have, that's the religious people. 07:25 Instead to persecute them you know they gave 07:27 them the right to live and to change of their 07:29 country. But of course the, the Protestants, 07:33 in the especially the Lutheran in the confession 07:36 of Augsburg, four times you know, 07:39 in four articles they mentioned the 07:41 Anabaptists. And it means that they said 07:44 that the Anabaptists were heretics as what 07:47 does it mean, what was the consequences? 07:49 You know, the consequences were 07:52 everywhere the Lutherans had the majority, 07:56 they went to state church they had no place, 07:59 they give no place for the Anabaptists and 08:01 the Anabaptists were treated like heretics, 08:04 and they were persecuted. And you know, 08:07 this confession was written by Melanchthon 08:12 with the in fronts and the inspiration of Lutheran. 08:16 Yes, it means the Lutheran discovered that again 08:19 and said man, we, we cannot let things as 08:22 it is. So very quickly they applied the principles 08:23 of the Rome that is so upfront of that. 08:26 Yeah, exactly we, we've got a series of articles 08:28 coming up in Liberty magazine that examines 08:31 this story and many others, and it's under 08:32 the title of the persecutory impulse. 08:35 Yeah, it's seems to be, and they decided 08:37 to repent you know which was, that's very good, 08:40 was very nice, very good. They officially repent 08:44 and it means they say okay today we recognize that 08:47 our founding father Lutheran was wrong, 08:50 you know to say that it's a you need to be 08:52 courageous and I mention that and also you know, 08:55 Adventist are, you know, we have our routes 08:58 in the Anabaptist movement. And saying that 09:01 you know, we recognize that our founding fathers 09:06 were wrong when it comes to persecute. 09:09 The Anabaptists were for literal water immersion 09:12 in baptism. Yeah, and most of them, 09:14 not the majority but many of them were 09:18 non-violent. It mean they were persecuted 09:20 terribly persecuted for nothing just because 09:23 they had another vision and delegation of 09:27 Mennonite attended I know the leaders you know, 09:30 Larry Miller and they were there and they said 09:33 that's okay you know we, we accept you repented. 09:37 They accepted it for what it is and no, 09:40 no further apology. This is the good time to bring 09:44 up something I've discussed on this program. 09:46 There are apologies in their apologies, yeah, like 09:48 when I was in Australia once I listen to the 09:53 debate in Parliament which could get pretty 09:55 fractious and one fellow insulted the 09:58 Prime Minster called him a liar, and the speaker 10:02 said retract that statement or I will recognize you 10:06 and eject you from the chamber. And he says 10:08 I retracted but he is liar anyway. 10:14 So, that seems to be there was no apology. 10:16 In the case, in the case of the Lutheran you know, 10:17 they did even more you know, they recognized 10:20 that they should not ask the state to protect 10:24 their church and to force people to follow what 10:27 they believe. Well it was a very good statement. 10:28 And the second they are committed now, 10:30 they are committed to respect the freedom 10:32 of religion, religious freedom, and it was of 10:34 course for me that was a very good point. 10:37 And it means if something happen I will have 10:39 the state, I would say hey don't forget what 10:42 you decide there, but I think they are anywhere; 10:44 they are not in position to force the state. 10:48 This is also something that we can say, 10:50 you know, some, something, when you loose 10:51 power you're more open. Yes, some openness 10:53 comes from, from powerless. But this 10:56 is a good opportunity to bring up again what 10:59 I've discussed in this program, 11:00 a very important document that came out 11:02 of Rome, not too many years ago called Memory 11:04 and Reconciliation toward the end of the 11:06 previous Pope's pontificate, John Paul II. 11:11 Remember the reconciliation fed a lot 11:13 of headlines around the world, yeah. 11:15 They apologized for the crusades, 11:16 for the treatment of the Jews and the 11:18 inquisitions and so. But you read the document 11:22 and it's, it's not a great apology and I could 11:24 encourage Rome to really, has the Lutherans 11:26 here have done, rethink their history and 11:28 openly acknowledge it, because they apologized 11:31 superficially and then said that the church 11:34 is really incapable of error, yeah, yeah. 11:37 So we're apologizing for those acting in the 11:40 name of the church you have done something. 11:41 Yeah, right. But we, what it stands for it's, 11:43 it's incapable I said even incapable of error 11:47 is Christ crossed, yeah, was incapable of error. 11:50 That it seems to me reasserting the sense 11:53 of prerogative that led to the problem 11:54 in the first place. Yeah, and that's, 11:56 and that's almost you know, we have to 11:58 recognize it sometime difficult for church 12:01 organization to recognize that they made 12:03 a mistake. Yes, they accept that people made 12:06 a mistake but they don't want really what 12:08 they believe, even countries. 12:10 You know with US in a sporadic way has 12:12 made some public apologies for the era 12:14 of slavery, but not really as much as perhaps 12:16 the African-Americans would like. 12:19 I saw that in Europe too where you know 12:21 some Government did not apologized for 12:24 their country which have been involved 12:27 in a persecution of the Jews. 12:28 They said that was not us, that was the others 12:31 you know, not, not really the country, 12:34 but some bad people in the country yes, yes, 12:36 that's still difficult yeah, yeah. 12:37 Well we're having a good discussion on this 12:40 topic and stay with us and will we be back 12:42 after the break to continue our discussion 12:46 about some of the interesting developments 12:48 in churches around us that reflect 12:50 perhaps understandings of pervious ages. 13:02 One hundred years, a long time to do anything 13:06 much less publish a magazine, 13:08 but this year Liberty, the Seventh-day 13:10 Adventist voice of religious freedom, 13:12 celebrates one hundred years of doing what 13:15 it does best, collecting, analyzing, 13:17 and reporting the ebb and flow of religious 13:20 expression around the world. Issue after issues, 13:24 Liberty has taken on the tough assignments, 13:26 tracking down threats to religious freedom 13:28 and exposing the work of the devil in every 13:30 corner of the globe. Governmental 13:32 interference, personal attacks, 13:34 corporate assaults, even religious freedom 13:37 issues sequestered within the church community 13:39 itself have been clearly and honestly exposed. 13:43 Liberty exists for one purpose to help God's 13:46 people maintain that all the important separation 13:49 of Church and State, while recognizing 13:51 the dangers inherent in such a struggle. 13:54 During the past century, Liberty has experienced 13:56 challenges of its own, but it remains on the job. 14:00 Thanks to the inspired leadership of a long 14:02 line of dedicated Adventist Editors, 14:05 three of whom represent almost half of the 14:06 publications existence and the foresight 14:09 of a little woman from New England. 14:11 One hundred years of struggle, 14:13 one hundred years of victories, 14:16 religious freedom isn't just about political 14:18 machines and cultural prejudices. 14:21 It's about people fighting for the right to serve 14:24 the God they love as their hearts and the 14:27 Holy Spirit dictate. Thanks to the prayers 14:30 and generous support of Seventh-day Adventists 14:32 everywhere. Liberty will continue to 14:34 accomplish its work of providing timely 14:36 information, spirit filled inspiration, 14:39 and heaven sent encouragement to all 14:42 who long to live and work in a world 14:44 bound together by the God ordained 14:46 bonds of religious freedom. 15:00 Welcome back to The Liberty Insider before 15:02 the break I was discussing with Dr. John Graz 15:05 some interesting religious developments really 15:08 in the world but let's bring it closer to the 15:10 United States where we are filming this 15:13 program even that was broadcast worldwide. 15:16 In the United States religion has taken another 15:18 interesting turn. It's always interesting here, 15:22 Alexis de Tocqueville, your friends speaking 15:25 Swiss you know the famous Alexis de 15:29 Tocqueville, that Frenchman who analyzed 15:31 the US in the early 1800s. He made some 15:35 very trenching comments about the religious 15:38 life in the United States, how it was a major 15:41 component were in the old world, 15:43 you know they might have still gone to masses on, 15:47 but, but it wasn't that dynamic like in the 15:48 United States, yeah exactly, it is constantly 15:50 changing. In the last few months we've seen 15:54 a coming together I think with the so called 15:57 Tea Party Movement and an attempt to take 16:02 the mantle of leadership for conservative 16:04 religious faction was Glenn Beck, 16:07 a talk show host. I guess there are beauty 16:10 queens who aspire to be President, 16:13 why not the host, show host Glenn Beck. 16:16 And, and I listened to his program sometimes 16:18 and it's very interesting the mix of religion and 16:22 history that he is, he is putting forward not 16:24 all of it wrong by any means, some of that 16:27 are bit misleading. But he is clearly trying 16:30 to gather to himself religious viewpoint and 16:37 then put that on top of what it means 16:38 to be an American and take the nation 16:40 somewhere. Do you see any, or the danger 16:45 or it just well cautionary moments in this job. 16:50 You know, I don't know Lincoln, first you know, 16:53 I am not still a US citizen and but, but you know, 16:57 religion is part of the American life. 17:01 It means it's no longer like Europe you know 17:03 in Europe religion is part of the past, 17:06 we see that like that religion is part of the 17:09 past. But today people try you know, especially in 17:11 western world you know, facing new challengers 17:15 of the Islam and some of the challengers new 17:18 country going, becoming stronger like China, 17:21 India, Russia, people try to find you know, 17:24 their roots and of course you, you, 17:27 you cannot be American ignoring that religion 17:29 is so important in America and saying that 17:33 it means you have religion everywhere. 17:35 It means people can use religion for their own 17:38 agenda or you cannot ignore religion today. 17:41 Well of course not and it's, and it's, 17:42 a social tool the best of times to deal 17:45 with reality. You know, look at that you know, 17:48 in the presidential you know, the President 17:50 spend one meeting of two hours talking about 17:54 religion, you will never see that, never see 17:57 that in Europe. That's an important point. 18:02 Let me connect two things to the Glenn Beck 18:03 thing, maybe I'll go with the book first. 18:07 I mentioned to you even before the program 18:09 that I've been revisiting the book Future 18:11 Shock by Alvin Toffler, yeah, yeah. 18:15 Well from the 70s I think he wrote that, yeah, 18:17 and he is almost prophetic, but of course he 18:19 was an educator and a man of letters, 18:23 who could apply psychology and economics 18:26 and so on and point out what its affects, 18:29 is likely to have on society. And, 18:31 and I think it makes sense that people are 18:35 Literally, over-stimulated with the degree 18:38 of change that ironically with the over-stimulation 18:43 they don't know what to do, yeah, 18:44 they are almost frozen on their tracks. 18:47 And so when someone like Glenn Beck comes 18:49 along and then waves a religious censoring 18:51 in front of them and says this is American 18:53 you know our golden past, yeah, they are 18:57 almost hypnotize to go with it, because they 18:59 are not thinking clearly, yeah exactly. 19:01 You know, always any historian or people 19:03 wanted to use religion, religion in their great 19:07 you know, ambition, because religion bring 19:10 more people, bring something you cannot 19:12 have in any other element that's strong 19:17 motivation, and this is why you know, 19:19 the conquest of Islam was done on be half of 19:22 religion. You know people were ready to 19:25 give their life. You are ready to give your life 19:27 for your country, but you know you are more 19:30 ready to give your life for God, if someone used 19:33 you know, know how to speak to use you know, 19:36 you will, you will die, but you will go heaven 19:39 and you will be with God forever. 19:41 You know all our history in western countries, 19:44 you know, was about religion most of our 19:46 story the crusade, you know, was this fabulous 19:49 movement of people poor people, rich people why? 19:53 You know, to be more religious, 19:56 to be sure that they will go to heaven 19:57 in giving their life. It means we have to be also 20:01 very suspicious about that very suspicious 20:04 about those who use religion political agenda. 20:08 And they always will, they always have. 20:10 Yeah, they always have but as a religious 20:13 leader we have to be suspicious yeah. 20:15 And recognize that it's illegitimate mean, yeah. 20:19 And we had an earlier program I don't know 20:21 when it will be shown, but earlier we taped 20:23 a program about revival in the Seventh-day 20:25 Adventist Church. We see good evidence that 20:27 is coming, it's needful in the United States 20:30 at large, so what's the track, here you've got 20:33 a popular pundit for better way another way 20:37 of describing Glenn Beck that I think off, 20:40 who is taking religion the cloak of religiosity 20:43 to inspire people to political action. 20:47 I don't like that, but yet there is a need 20:49 to bring religion is way for these people 20:52 to deal with, what I said earlier is the future 20:54 shock, yeah, that it's overwhelming them. 20:58 So the track between as we know, 21:01 in a purely religious context, the track between 21:03 truth and error, and some of these are very 21:05 hard to distinguish. The stakes are very high 21:08 and yet the need is great, you can't just 21:10 ignore it. Yeah you cannot, and sometime 21:12 you know, it could be for the good you know 21:14 it could be for the good, imagine the great 21:17 movement to help people to have a better 21:20 health, to have more justice, to fight against 21:24 poverty even if it goes through a political, 21:27 it could be good why not? Have your heard 21:30 of Black Robed Regiment, no, Glenn Beck brought 21:35 it up recently in one of our regional Religious 21:38 Liberty Directors Greg Hamilton in the 21:42 North Pacific has written very ably on it going 21:46 back to well recorded history that in the 1750s 21:50 and a little later right up to the, 21:52 to the revolutionary war in the United States 21:55 there was a faction of the Protestant preachers 21:59 who argued for revolution, they actually were 22:01 in adjunct to the revolutionary cause, 22:05 and they were called the Black Robed Regiment. 22:08 But Glenn Beck has mentioned them and tried 22:11 to invoke them, we need another Black Robed 22:13 Regiment. In other words politically active 22:17 preachers which is now that they are now 22:18 under the separation of church and state 22:20 model that we advents. What we need 22:23 to remember and Glenn Beck is not gonna 22:25 remind his listeners is that historically the 22:29 Black Robed Regiment were basically road 22:32 preachers. They were out of the main stream, 22:36 because at that time there was a revival 22:38 and the great awakening of the 1750s with 22:40 Jonathan Edwards, and some preachers from 22:44 England have brought a great spiritual 22:46 revival in New England. They argued against 22:48 political action like that, but some of the 22:51 decedents the Black Robed Regiment got involved 22:55 and somehow we need to in this new model 22:58 both in the United States and in the larger world, 23:00 keep a grip here and not let religious fervor 23:05 which is necessary and natural at a time 23:08 of stress, yes, be submitted to a secular end. 23:11 Yeah, you know when you are associate 23:13 religion and nationalism it could be a very, 23:17 very powerful. Yeah, you know I believe this 23:20 what we seeing all over around the world and 23:21 now you can speak to this because I have been 23:24 observing, I love history and I have been 23:26 observing it, about the time I was born we were 23:29 coming out, because it was post World War II, 23:31 we were literally coming out of the colonial era, 23:36 the colonial paths were broken all around the 23:38 world with the World War. So colonialism was 23:41 fading and much of the wars in Africa and so on, 23:45 were just the tail end of that even Vietnam 23:47 was the tail end of colonialism. 23:49 But in the absence of colonialism we had 23:54 capitalism, communism as well as certain national. 23:58 The world was divided, right, it's very clearly 24:00 divided, yes nationalism, all the isms. Yeah. 24:02 But I believe with the collapse of Soviet Union 24:06 and, and in some ways the collapse of communism 24:09 as a philosophy, we are not seeing classic 24:13 nationalism any more, yeah. What we are seeing 24:15 is national identity determined mostly by 24:19 belief system religion and some times by 24:22 ethnicity, but I believe religion more than 24:24 ethnicity. Yeah, yeah you know, as a Christian 24:27 I think that there are many temptations and 24:30 of course that's some time very difficulty to 24:32 find the right way and also we don't want to 24:35 discourage people you know, there are good 24:37 intention, there are good program and we have 24:39 to encourage, but every thing has to be seen 24:43 you know, according to what we believe, 24:45 according to the values of the Gospel. 24:47 It means we should not be just the servant 24:51 of the state as we should not be the servant 24:54 of one ideology. We should be the servant 24:56 of God first and you know, we have, 24:59 we have to develop the critical spirit not to be 25:02 against of those who want to be good, 25:04 critical in the sense of analytical, yeah analytical 25:07 yeah to say, okay you know, what you say 25:10 is good, but you know, which is very important 25:14 for us is the Gospel and the Bible gave us the 25:17 possibility to take some distance because 25:21 you know, you can be manipulated it's so easy 25:23 to manipulate people. If you've taken in your mind 25:26 that what Jesus said and how would Jesus act, 25:30 you have the possibility to take some distance 25:34 to world and say hey that's maybe good, 25:37 but be careful, it maybe also it may threaten 25:41 you know, what I believe and the most important 25:43 value. And we need to honestly apply that what 25:46 would Jesus do model, do to other what you yeah, 25:51 on that, I still, even as I say this I can't get 25:55 my mind around it, but Gary Bow I recently 25:57 appended that well. He didn't think that Jesus 26:00 himself might be involved in the torture. 26:03 He was sure that Jesus would expect every 26:05 follower of his to torture some one, 26:07 if they were attract to the community. 26:10 We should do as a Christian you know, 26:12 we should really live the values of the Gospel 26:15 and try to, of course we have to respect the 26:18 society, we have to respect you know, 26:19 we're good citizen and so on, but some time 26:21 there is a conflict and we should not be afraid 26:23 to say, hey go back to the Gospel. 26:25 We need to live the principles of the Kingdom 26:27 of Heaven. Yeah we live, we need, 26:29 we need really and we need to be, to be so 26:32 much influenced by the Bible and by the Gospel, 26:36 the Gospel and by what Jesus say that you know, 26:39 first we go to him, we go to Jesus and we say 26:42 this is good and this is bad, and not to go to 26:45 the political speech and so on, 26:48 we have to be the soul of the era. 26:53 Religious liberty can mean different things to 26:55 different people in different situations. 26:58 When we are talking about internal church affairs, 27:01 it's some times not quiet the religious liberty 27:03 situations some imagine. For example recently 27:07 in my church, the Seventh-day 27:08 Adventist Church there was a series of elections 27:12 and new leaders were chosen and some people 27:15 who held differing doctrinal understandings 27:19 to the new leaders upon that they would likely 27:21 be an inquisition of course not a Seventh-day 27:25 Adventist word and the reference to a bad 27:27 phase of history. But whether or not there 27:31 is likely to be quite an inquisition I think 27:34 unlikely my self it's not possible in fact. 27:38 The real point is that within the church any 27:40 organization much more a church has every right 27:44 to maintain a doctrinal integrity and require that 27:48 someone who identifies with the church and 27:51 maintains their membership, maintains a certain 27:53 degree of uniformity or at least agreement 27:56 with those points. What we need to hold churches 28:01 accountable for is un-Christian, un-civil and 28:04 compulsive ways that they deal with the decedents. 28:09 For Liberty Insider this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17