Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the
program that brings you up
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to date news, views,
discussion and information
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religious liberty issues.
My name is Lincoln Steed,
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editor of Liberty
Magazine, and my guest on the
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program again
not a new comer it's
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Dr. John Graz.
Always a pleasure to be with
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you Lincoln.
Welcome to the program.
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Lets, since you
are, is head of our
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Seventh-day Adventist
Church Religious Liberty
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Department as well as
few other hats since you
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are involved in
global religious issues.
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Let's have some
discussion about some of the
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very interesting
developments that I see
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recently in the
largest Christian denomination,
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the Roman Catholic
Church. I read a news item
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just a few days
ago about dissident,
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well they're not dissident
priests because they, the
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priests in the
Catholic Church are only males,
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yeah, but some women
have assumed priestly
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roles and has been
exacerbated by the church
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but are leading all
those priests in breakaway
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Catholic communities.
What do you make of this?
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On, on the point
of religious freedom,
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I think, every church
has every organization
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including religious
organization has the
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right to, to follow
their roles, you know and
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to decide what kind of
rule? It means that's not
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a problem of religious freedom.
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It's an internal
problem to the Catholic Church
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and for me you know I
will not say anything except
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that may be on the
other part we can argue
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is it correct, is
this according to the Bible
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and so on, but the
point of view of religious
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freedom they have the
right to decide as long
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as they don't prosecute people?
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Okay I was about to
throw in spilling my question.
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You mean they can, have
the inquisition again yeah,
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and send these poor
ladies to a dungeon somewhere.
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You know the problem
of the inquisition is,
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you had no alternative, right.
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You had no other
church, you had no alternative;
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it means you can decide
that if you don't follow
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the roles you cannot
be part of our movement
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of our church, that's
okay. But, if you decide
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that and you say
that you cannot be part
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of our movement
which means that you have
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no space for you, you
will be arrested and you
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will be prosecuted.
Well that's another story.
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I was thinking of Ellen
White quote when she warns
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against a Sunday
Law being, being brought
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in and she says that
civil penalties upon the centre
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will be applied, yes
exactly, and that was
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the inquisition. It
was a church but when,
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when you are
condemned by the church,
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then civil penalties
will apply. Yes, yes exactly.
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But yeah, you're
very right and we need to
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remind our viewers
and those that believe
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in religious liberty
that any church has a right
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to create their own
rules, you know doctrinal
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or behavioral norm
within, within the group and
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those that don't hear
to it, yes, they seems to
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be a member. Imagine
that you want to be a
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member of basketball
club and you play football
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and they would say
hey there's another place
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to play football. Well
maybe, but of course it
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works in the context of freedom.
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It means you've the
right to do something else
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but that the example
you gave is right you know
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when the church
dominate the society you'll
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have no right, it
means, if you were not in
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you disappear.
By the way this is,
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I didn't plan on
mentioning but it does remind
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me of a very pivotal
case recently with the
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Christian Legal
Society at a lower school
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as the name implies a Christian,
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a group of Christian
students were meeting
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on campus, and non Christians,
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seculars guys and
others wanted to join and
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I said well this is just
for Christians, for Christians,
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but the Supreme Court
has actually held, that,
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that they cannot
restrict the membership,
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anybody can join. So,
I think some of the norms
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in society are
working against what we say,
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and what we just
said that we may find,
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for example within
the Seventh-day Adventists
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or indeed any
Christian religious group,
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they maybe forced
by the state to accept
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ministers of a certain
moral, doctrinal equation
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that's not acceptable
to us. But, but certainly
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is a matter of
religious freedom it's,
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it's very legitimate
to have doctrinal and
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organizational integrity.
That's not persecution,
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yeah no, when
someone's out of harmony and
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they remove them. If
you disagree you know,
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if you disagree,
you're a member of a church,
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you disagree with that church,
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through a a
several ways you know,
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you have inside every
church organization or
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religious organization,
a way to deal with people
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who disagree, it means
you can open a discursion. Now
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if they majority
decide that no we don't accept
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your ID you have to just
follow or you, you maybe,
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you may do
something else around you know
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outside of your
organization or you may
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stay in the
organization as opponent.
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But you know, you
cannot say that you are
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prosecutor, of
course if the church or the
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organization use
you know a prosecution,
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they prosecute you,
they force you to leave using
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you know, the
things which are not legal,
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that is really problem.
Well and that's a matter
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of acceptable
social human behavior,
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accepted behavior,
yes, not really church
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structure. But
yes, on one level this,
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this phenomenon
with these would be women
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priests, women
priests, because I,
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well you know
it's an internal issue,
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I think as we look
though at religious phenomenal
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it has a certain
significance and,
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and the Roman
Catholic Church which has been
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on authoritarian
structure, is having a lot
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of trouble
maintaining doctrinal integrity.
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You know I think
that what you say you know
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I remember I was in,
I attended the Lutheran
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World Federation
Assembly, I was invited and they
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asked me to give
the greetings on behalf
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of the Adventist
Church. They gave me three
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minutes in their world
assembly. I have received
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the same with the
Reform World Assembly and
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the Baptist World
Alliance Assembly.
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It's a very good
opportunity to remind
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them of
Adventists and their work.
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Yeah we invited them
to you know it means,
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it's like a chat but
you know giving a three
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minutes in the
world assembly of course
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people say hey the
Adventists are here and
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after they asked me
a questions that was
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a very good, very
good, opportunity.
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But I want to come
back to the Lutheran
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World Federation
Assembly, you know,
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they decided to
repent about the prosecution
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of the Mennonites,
which happened in the 16th
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century that, that's
it's, it gives us a good
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illustration
about what you said.
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You know in the
16th century after the,
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the Treaty of Versailles
and so, several treaties
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there, they decided
that as they were not able
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to exterminate each
other, they decided that
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in some countries
you know if the king is a
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Catholic, the
population will be Catholic,
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people will be Catholic.
The king is Protestant,
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they will be
Protestants. It's amazing how
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people have that
automatic identification,
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yeah, and you have,
that's the religious people.
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Instead to persecute
them you know they gave
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them the right to
live and to change of their
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country. But of
course the, the Protestants,
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in the especially the
Lutheran in the confession
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of Augsburg,
four times you know,
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in four articles
they mentioned the
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Anabaptists. And it
means that they said
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that the Anabaptists
were heretics as what
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does it mean, what
was the consequences?
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You know, the consequences were
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everywhere the
Lutherans had the majority,
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they went to state
church they had no place,
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they give no place
for the Anabaptists and
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the Anabaptists were
treated like heretics,
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and they were
persecuted. And you know,
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this confession was
written by Melanchthon
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with the in fronts and
the inspiration of Lutheran.
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Yes, it means the
Lutheran discovered that again
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and said man, we,
we cannot let things as
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it is. So very quickly
they applied the principles
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of the Rome that
is so upfront of that.
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Yeah, exactly we, we've
got a series of articles
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coming up in Liberty
magazine that examines
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this story and many
others, and it's under
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the title of the
persecutory impulse.
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Yeah, it's seems to
be, and they decided
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to repent you know
which was, that's very good,
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was very nice, very
good. They officially repent
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and it means they say
okay today we recognize that
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our founding
father Lutheran was wrong,
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you know to say that
it's a you need to be
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courageous and I
mention that and also you know,
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Adventist are, you
know, we have our routes
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in the Anabaptist
movement. And saying that
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you know, we recognize
that our founding fathers
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were wrong when it
comes to persecute.
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The Anabaptists were
for literal water immersion
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in baptism.
Yeah, and most of them,
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not the majority
but many of them were
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non-violent. It
mean they were persecuted
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terribly persecuted
for nothing just because
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they had another
vision and delegation of
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Mennonite attended I
know the leaders you know,
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Larry Miller and they
were there and they said
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that's okay you know
we, we accept you repented.
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They accepted it
for what it is and no,
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no further apology. This
is the good time to bring
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up something I've
discussed on this program.
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There are apologies in
their apologies, yeah, like
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when I was in
Australia once I listen to the
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debate in Parliament
which could get pretty
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fractious and one
fellow insulted the
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Prime Minster called
him a liar, and the speaker
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said retract that statement
or I will recognize you
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and eject you from
the chamber. And he says
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I retracted but
he is liar anyway.
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So, that seems to be
there was no apology.
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In the case, in the case
of the Lutheran you know,
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they did even more
you know, they recognized
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that they should not
ask the state to protect
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their church and to
force people to follow what
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they believe. Well it
was a very good statement.
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And the second
they are committed now,
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they are committed
to respect the freedom
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of religion,
religious freedom, and it was of
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course for me that
was a very good point.
00:10:34.95\00:10:37.04
And it means if
something happen I will have
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the state, I would
say hey don't forget what
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you decide there, but I
think they are anywhere;
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they are not in
position to force the state.
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This is also
something that we can say,
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you know, some,
something, when you loose
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power you're more
open. Yes, some openness
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comes from, from
powerless. But this
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is a good opportunity
to bring up again what
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I've discussed in this program,
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a very important
document that came out
00:11:00.42\00:11:02.28
of Rome, not too many
years ago called Memory
00:11:02.29\00:11:04.48
and Reconciliation
toward the end of the
00:11:04.49\00:11:06.74
previous Pope's
pontificate, John Paul II.
00:11:06.75\00:11:10.61
Remember the
reconciliation fed a lot
00:11:11.49\00:11:13.60
of headlines
around the world, yeah.
00:11:13.61\00:11:15.30
They apologized
for the crusades,
00:11:15.31\00:11:16.95
for the treatment
of the Jews and the
00:11:16.96\00:11:18.70
inquisitions and so.
But you read the document
00:11:18.71\00:11:21.33
and it's, it's not a
great apology and I could
00:11:22.10\00:11:24.40
encourage Rome to
really, has the Lutherans
00:11:24.41\00:11:26.72
here have done,
rethink their history and
00:11:26.73\00:11:28.81
openly acknowledge it,
because they apologized
00:11:28.82\00:11:31.90
superficially and
then said that the church
00:11:31.91\00:11:34.30
is really incapable
of error, yeah, yeah.
00:11:34.31\00:11:37.00
So we're apologizing
for those acting in the
00:11:37.01\00:11:40.11
name of the church
you have done something.
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Yeah, right. But we,
what it stands for it's,
00:11:41.52\00:11:43.93
it's incapable I said
even incapable of error
00:11:43.94\00:11:47.14
is Christ crossed,
yeah, was incapable of error.
00:11:47.15\00:11:49.82
That it seems to me
reasserting the sense
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of prerogative
that led to the problem
00:11:53.12\00:11:54.78
in the first
place. Yeah, and that's,
00:11:54.79\00:11:56.25
and that's almost
you know, we have to
00:11:56.26\00:11:58.23
recognize it
sometime difficult for church
00:11:58.24\00:12:01.25
organization to
recognize that they made
00:12:01.26\00:12:03.48
a mistake. Yes, they
accept that people made
00:12:03.49\00:12:06.03
a mistake but they
don't want really what
00:12:06.04\00:12:08.07
they believe, even countries.
00:12:08.08\00:12:09.32
You know with US
in a sporadic way has
00:12:10.27\00:12:12.41
made some public
apologies for the era
00:12:12.42\00:12:14.61
of slavery, but not
really as much as perhaps
00:12:14.62\00:12:16.85
the
African-Americans would like.
00:12:16.86\00:12:18.88
I saw that in
Europe too where you know
00:12:19.38\00:12:21.21
some Government
did not apologized for
00:12:21.22\00:12:23.53
their country
which have been involved
00:12:24.46\00:12:26.99
in a persecution of the Jews.
00:12:27.00\00:12:28.51
They said that was not
us, that was the others
00:12:28.52\00:12:31.04
you know, not, not
really the country,
00:12:31.05\00:12:33.68
but some bad people
in the country yes, yes,
00:12:34.29\00:12:36.36
that's still
difficult yeah, yeah.
00:12:36.37\00:12:37.90
Well we're having a
good discussion on this
00:12:37.91\00:12:40.05
topic and stay with
us and will we be back
00:12:40.06\00:12:42.57
after the break to
continue our discussion
00:12:42.92\00:12:45.94
about some of the
interesting developments
00:12:46.81\00:12:48.51
in churches
around us that reflect
00:12:48.99\00:12:50.32
perhaps
understandings of pervious ages.
00:12:50.33\00:12:53.21
One hundred years, a
long time to do anything
00:13:02.27\00:13:05.54
much less publish a magazine,
00:13:06.16\00:13:07.59
but this year
Liberty, the Seventh-day
00:13:08.08\00:13:10.55
Adventist voice
of religious freedom,
00:13:10.56\00:13:12.27
celebrates one
hundred years of doing what
00:13:12.80\00:13:15.15
it does best,
collecting, analyzing,
00:13:15.16\00:13:17.75
and reporting the
ebb and flow of religious
00:13:17.76\00:13:20.33
expression around the
world. Issue after issues,
00:13:20.34\00:13:23.85
Liberty has taken on
the tough assignments,
00:13:24.40\00:13:26.30
tracking down
threats to religious freedom
00:13:26.70\00:13:28.45
and exposing the
work of the devil in every
00:13:28.93\00:13:30.71
corner of the
globe. Governmental
00:13:30.72\00:13:32.88
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:32.89\00:13:34.83
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom
00:13:34.84\00:13:37.39
issues sequestered
within the church community
00:13:37.40\00:13:39.39
itself have been
clearly and honestly exposed.
00:13:39.40\00:13:42.43
Liberty exists for
one purpose to help God's
00:13:43.38\00:13:46.47
people maintain that
all the important separation
00:13:46.48\00:13:49.17
of Church and
State, while recognizing
00:13:49.18\00:13:51.54
the dangers
inherent in such a struggle.
00:13:51.55\00:13:53.77
During the past
century, Liberty has experienced
00:13:54.73\00:13:56.95
challenges of its own,
but it remains on the job.
00:13:56.96\00:14:00.19
Thanks to the
inspired leadership of a long
00:14:00.69\00:14:02.80
line of dedicated
Adventist Editors,
00:14:02.81\00:14:04.71
three of whom
represent almost half of the
00:14:05.25\00:14:06.90
publications
existence and the foresight
00:14:06.91\00:14:09.34
of a little
woman from New England.
00:14:09.35\00:14:11.10
One hundred years of struggle,
00:14:11.97\00:14:13.40
one hundred years of victories,
00:14:13.41\00:14:15.77
religious freedom
isn't just about political
00:14:16.28\00:14:18.38
machines and
cultural prejudices.
00:14:18.39\00:14:20.50
It's about people
fighting for the right to serve
00:14:21.02\00:14:24.27
the God they love
as their hearts and the
00:14:24.75\00:14:26.98
Holy Spirit dictate.
Thanks to the prayers
00:14:26.99\00:14:30.22
and generous support
of Seventh-day Adventists
00:14:30.23\00:14:32.55
everywhere.
Liberty will continue to
00:14:32.56\00:14:34.86
accomplish its
work of providing timely
00:14:34.87\00:14:36.88
information,
spirit filled inspiration,
00:14:36.89\00:14:39.05
and heaven sent
encouragement to all
00:14:39.55\00:14:41.58
who long to live
and work in a world
00:14:42.17\00:14:44.80
bound together
by the God ordained
00:14:44.81\00:14:46.95
bonds of religious freedom.
00:14:46.96\00:14:49.54
Welcome back to The
Liberty Insider before
00:15:00.61\00:15:02.96
the break I was
discussing with Dr. John Graz
00:15:02.97\00:15:05.08
some interesting
religious developments really
00:15:05.09\00:15:08.20
in the world but
let's bring it closer to the
00:15:08.21\00:15:10.59
United States
where we are filming this
00:15:10.60\00:15:13.16
program even that
was broadcast worldwide.
00:15:13.17\00:15:15.48
In the United States
religion has taken another
00:15:16.21\00:15:18.95
interesting turn. It's
always interesting here,
00:15:18.96\00:15:20.89
Alexis de Tocqueville,
your friends speaking
00:15:22.00\00:15:25.89
Swiss you know
the famous Alexis de
00:15:25.90\00:15:29.15
Tocqueville, that
Frenchman who analyzed
00:15:29.16\00:15:31.51
the US in the
early 1800s. He made some
00:15:31.52\00:15:35.24
very trenching
comments about the religious
00:15:35.73\00:15:38.30
life in the United
States, how it was a major
00:15:38.31\00:15:41.38
component were in the old world,
00:15:41.39\00:15:43.10
you know they might
have still gone to masses on,
00:15:43.89\00:15:46.61
but, but it wasn't
that dynamic like in the
00:15:47.15\00:15:48.81
United States, yeah
exactly, it is constantly
00:15:48.82\00:15:50.16
changing. In the
last few months we've seen
00:15:50.17\00:15:54.72
a coming together I
think with the so called
00:15:54.73\00:15:57.25
Tea Party Movement
and an attempt to take
00:15:57.26\00:16:01.22
the mantle of
leadership for conservative
00:16:02.33\00:16:04.29
religious
faction was Glenn Beck,
00:16:04.30\00:16:06.34
a talk show host. I
guess there are beauty
00:16:07.23\00:16:10.80
queens who
aspire to be President,
00:16:10.81\00:16:13.10
why not the host,
show host Glenn Beck.
00:16:13.11\00:16:16.39
And, and I listened
to his program sometimes
00:16:16.98\00:16:18.93
and it's very interesting
the mix of religion and
00:16:18.94\00:16:22.48
history that he is,
he is putting forward not
00:16:22.49\00:16:24.57
all of it wrong by
any means, some of that
00:16:24.58\00:16:27.08
are bit misleading.
But he is clearly trying
00:16:27.09\00:16:30.01
to gather to himself
religious viewpoint and
00:16:30.02\00:16:36.34
then put that on
top of what it means
00:16:37.25\00:16:38.47
to be an American
and take the nation
00:16:38.48\00:16:40.30
somewhere. Do you
see any, or the danger
00:16:40.31\00:16:45.35
or it just well
cautionary moments in this job.
00:16:45.36\00:16:50.04
You know, I don't know
Lincoln, first you know,
00:16:50.05\00:16:53.21
I am not still a US
citizen and but, but you know,
00:16:53.87\00:16:57.94
religion is part
of the American life.
00:16:57.95\00:17:00.73
It means it's no
longer like Europe you know
00:17:01.38\00:17:03.72
in Europe religion
is part of the past,
00:17:03.73\00:17:05.80
we see that like that
religion is part of the
00:17:06.46\00:17:09.29
past. But today people
try you know, especially in
00:17:09.85\00:17:11.76
western world you
know, facing new challengers
00:17:11.77\00:17:15.54
of the Islam and some
of the challengers new
00:17:15.55\00:17:18.26
country going,
becoming stronger like China,
00:17:18.27\00:17:21.73
India, Russia,
people try to find you know,
00:17:21.74\00:17:24.70
their roots and
of course you, you,
00:17:24.71\00:17:26.97
you cannot be
American ignoring that religion
00:17:27.58\00:17:29.94
is so important in
America and saying that
00:17:29.95\00:17:32.43
it means you have
religion everywhere.
00:17:33.07\00:17:35.18
It means people can
use religion for their own
00:17:35.85\00:17:38.27
agenda or you cannot
ignore religion today.
00:17:38.28\00:17:41.00
Well of course not
and it's, and it's,
00:17:41.01\00:17:42.35
a social tool the
best of times to deal
00:17:42.36\00:17:45.66
with reality. You
know, look at that you know,
00:17:45.67\00:17:47.78
in the presidential
you know, the President
00:17:48.43\00:17:50.21
spend one meeting of
two hours talking about
00:17:50.22\00:17:54.67
religion, you will
never see that, never see
00:17:54.68\00:17:57.34
that in Europe.
That's an important point.
00:17:57.35\00:18:02.48
Let me connect two
things to the Glenn Beck
00:18:02.49\00:18:03.91
thing, maybe I'll
go with the book first.
00:18:03.92\00:18:06.83
I mentioned to you
even before the program
00:18:07.52\00:18:09.34
that I've been
revisiting the book Future
00:18:09.35\00:18:11.89
Shock by Alvin
Toffler, yeah, yeah.
00:18:11.90\00:18:14.06
Well from the 70s I
think he wrote that, yeah,
00:18:15.01\00:18:17.56
and he is almost
prophetic, but of course he
00:18:17.57\00:18:19.36
was an educator
and a man of letters,
00:18:19.37\00:18:23.22
who could apply
psychology and economics
00:18:23.23\00:18:26.77
and so on and point
out what its affects,
00:18:26.78\00:18:29.19
is likely to
have on society. And,
00:18:29.20\00:18:31.56
and I think it makes
sense that people are
00:18:31.57\00:18:34.99
Literally,
over-stimulated with the degree
00:18:35.00\00:18:38.56
of change that ironically
with the over-stimulation
00:18:38.57\00:18:43.10
they don't know
what to do, yeah,
00:18:43.11\00:18:44.74
they are almost
frozen on their tracks.
00:18:44.75\00:18:46.13
And so when someone
like Glenn Beck comes
00:18:47.03\00:18:49.03
along and then waves
a religious censoring
00:18:49.04\00:18:51.57
in front of them and
says this is American
00:18:51.58\00:18:53.84
you know our golden
past, yeah, they are
00:18:53.85\00:18:57.26
almost hypnotize to
go with it, because they
00:18:57.27\00:18:59.00
are not thinking
clearly, yeah exactly.
00:18:59.01\00:19:01.16
You know, always
any historian or people
00:19:01.17\00:19:03.74
wanted to use religion,
religion in their great
00:19:03.75\00:19:07.18
you know, ambition,
because religion bring
00:19:07.19\00:19:10.22
more people, bring
something you cannot
00:19:10.23\00:19:12.72
have in any other
element that's strong
00:19:12.73\00:19:17.67
motivation, and
this is why you know,
00:19:17.68\00:19:19.73
the conquest of Islam
was done on be half of
00:19:19.74\00:19:22.90
religion. You know
people were ready to
00:19:22.91\00:19:25.23
give their life. You
are ready to give your life
00:19:25.24\00:19:27.86
for your country,
but you know you are more
00:19:27.87\00:19:30.12
ready to give your life
for God, if someone used
00:19:30.13\00:19:33.65
you know, know how to
speak to use you know,
00:19:33.66\00:19:36.37
you will, you will
die, but you will go heaven
00:19:36.38\00:19:39.21
and you will be
with God forever.
00:19:39.22\00:19:40.83
You know all our
history in western countries,
00:19:41.47\00:19:43.61
you know, was about
religion most of our
00:19:44.35\00:19:46.78
story the crusade, you
know, was this fabulous
00:19:46.79\00:19:49.95
movement of people poor
people, rich people why?
00:19:49.96\00:19:53.57
You know, to be more religious,
00:19:53.58\00:19:55.77
to be sure that
they will go to heaven
00:19:56.30\00:19:57.90
in giving their life.
It means we have to be also
00:19:57.91\00:20:01.40
very suspicious
about that very suspicious
00:20:01.41\00:20:04.58
about those who use
religion political agenda.
00:20:04.59\00:20:08.24
And they always
will, they always have.
00:20:08.77\00:20:10.32
Yeah, they always
have but as a religious
00:20:10.89\00:20:13.04
leader we have to
be suspicious yeah.
00:20:13.05\00:20:15.27
And recognize that it's
illegitimate mean, yeah.
00:20:15.78\00:20:19.20
And we had an
earlier program I don't know
00:20:19.69\00:20:21.56
when it will be
shown, but earlier we taped
00:20:21.57\00:20:23.22
a program about
revival in the Seventh-day
00:20:23.23\00:20:25.75
Adventist Church. We
see good evidence that
00:20:25.76\00:20:27.81
is coming, it's
needful in the United States
00:20:27.82\00:20:30.89
at large, so what's
the track, here you've got
00:20:30.90\00:20:33.72
a popular pundit for
better way another way
00:20:33.73\00:20:37.65
of describing Glenn
Beck that I think off,
00:20:37.66\00:20:39.91
who is taking religion
the cloak of religiosity
00:20:40.97\00:20:43.31
to inspire people
to political action.
00:20:43.32\00:20:45.23
I don't like that,
but yet there is a need
00:20:47.34\00:20:49.70
to bring religion
is way for these people
00:20:49.71\00:20:52.24
to deal with, what I
said earlier is the future
00:20:52.25\00:20:54.44
shock, yeah, that
it's overwhelming them.
00:20:54.45\00:20:56.50
So the track between as we know,
00:20:58.18\00:20:59.94
in a purely religious
context, the track between
00:21:01.42\00:21:03.04
truth and error, and
some of these are very
00:21:03.05\00:21:04.99
hard to distinguish.
The stakes are very high
00:21:05.00\00:21:07.72
and yet the need is
great, you can't just
00:21:08.45\00:21:10.32
ignore it. Yeah you
cannot, and sometime
00:21:10.33\00:21:12.61
you know, it could
be for the good you know
00:21:12.62\00:21:14.72
it could be for the
good, imagine the great
00:21:14.73\00:21:17.07
movement to help
people to have a better
00:21:17.08\00:21:20.25
health, to have more
justice, to fight against
00:21:20.26\00:21:24.30
poverty even if it
goes through a political,
00:21:24.31\00:21:27.50
it could be good
why not? Have your heard
00:21:27.51\00:21:30.67
of Black Robed
Regiment, no, Glenn Beck brought
00:21:30.68\00:21:35.25
it up recently in one
of our regional Religious
00:21:35.26\00:21:38.70
Liberty Directors
Greg Hamilton in the
00:21:38.71\00:21:42.00
North Pacific has
written very ably on it going
00:21:42.01\00:21:46.34
back to well recorded
history that in the 1750s
00:21:46.35\00:21:49.62
and a little
later right up to the,
00:21:50.16\00:21:51.45
to the revolutionary
war in the United States
00:21:52.46\00:21:54.76
there was a faction of
the Protestant preachers
00:21:55.35\00:21:58.64
who argued for
revolution, they actually were
00:21:59.16\00:22:01.95
in adjunct to the
revolutionary cause,
00:22:01.96\00:22:04.29
and they were called
the Black Robed Regiment.
00:22:05.58\00:22:07.61
But Glenn Beck has
mentioned them and tried
00:22:08.55\00:22:11.62
to invoke them, we
need another Black Robed
00:22:11.63\00:22:13.72
Regiment. In other
words politically active
00:22:13.73\00:22:16.26
preachers which is
now that they are now
00:22:17.10\00:22:18.84
under the
separation of church and state
00:22:18.85\00:22:20.58
model that we
advents. What we need
00:22:20.59\00:22:23.65
to remember and
Glenn Beck is not gonna
00:22:23.66\00:22:25.59
remind his listeners
is that historically the
00:22:25.60\00:22:29.52
Black Robed
Regiment were basically road
00:22:29.53\00:22:32.90
preachers. They were
out of the main stream,
00:22:32.91\00:22:35.56
because at that
time there was a revival
00:22:36.28\00:22:37.68
and the great
awakening of the 1750s with
00:22:38.24\00:22:40.72
Jonathan Edwards,
and some preachers from
00:22:40.73\00:22:44.05
England have
brought a great spiritual
00:22:44.06\00:22:46.10
revival in New
England. They argued against
00:22:46.11\00:22:48.73
political action
like that, but some of the
00:22:48.74\00:22:51.35
decedents the Black
Robed Regiment got involved
00:22:51.36\00:22:53.97
and somehow we need
to in this new model
00:22:55.73\00:22:58.34
both in the United
States and in the larger world,
00:22:58.35\00:23:00.58
keep a grip here and
not let religious fervor
00:23:00.59\00:23:05.54
which is necessary
and natural at a time
00:23:05.55\00:23:08.24
of stress, yes, be
submitted to a secular end.
00:23:08.25\00:23:11.73
Yeah, you know
when you are associate
00:23:11.74\00:23:13.61
religion and
nationalism it could be a very,
00:23:13.62\00:23:17.21
very powerful. Yeah,
you know I believe this
00:23:17.22\00:23:20.31
what we seeing all
over around the world and
00:23:20.32\00:23:21.95
now you can speak to
this because I have been
00:23:21.96\00:23:24.25
observing, I love
history and I have been
00:23:24.26\00:23:26.26
observing it, about
the time I was born we were
00:23:26.27\00:23:29.21
coming out, because
it was post World War II,
00:23:29.22\00:23:31.17
we were literally
coming out of the colonial era,
00:23:31.18\00:23:35.53
the colonial paths
were broken all around the
00:23:36.33\00:23:38.33
world with the World
War. So colonialism was
00:23:38.34\00:23:41.27
fading and much of the
wars in Africa and so on,
00:23:41.28\00:23:45.44
were just the tail
end of that even Vietnam
00:23:45.45\00:23:47.80
was the tail end of colonialism.
00:23:47.81\00:23:49.21
But in the absence
of colonialism we had
00:23:49.88\00:23:52.48
capitalism, communism as
well as certain national.
00:23:54.75\00:23:58.21
The world was divided,
right, it's very clearly
00:23:58.22\00:24:00.37
divided, yes
nationalism, all the isms. Yeah.
00:24:00.38\00:24:02.49
But I believe with the
collapse of Soviet Union
00:24:02.87\00:24:06.38
and, and in some ways
the collapse of communism
00:24:06.39\00:24:08.98
as a philosophy, we
are not seeing classic
00:24:08.99\00:24:12.88
nationalism any more,
yeah. What we are seeing
00:24:13.60\00:24:15.57
is national
identity determined mostly by
00:24:15.58\00:24:19.20
belief system
religion and some times by
00:24:19.21\00:24:22.06
ethnicity, but I
believe religion more than
00:24:22.07\00:24:24.32
ethnicity. Yeah, yeah
you know, as a Christian
00:24:24.33\00:24:27.40
I think that there
are many temptations and
00:24:27.41\00:24:30.35
of course that's some
time very difficulty to
00:24:30.36\00:24:32.43
find the right way
and also we don't want to
00:24:32.44\00:24:35.31
discourage people
you know, there are good
00:24:35.32\00:24:37.16
intention, there are
good program and we have
00:24:37.17\00:24:39.74
to encourage, but
every thing has to be seen
00:24:39.75\00:24:42.91
you know,
according to what we believe,
00:24:43.53\00:24:45.25
according to the
values of the Gospel.
00:24:45.26\00:24:47.23
It means we should
not be just the servant
00:24:47.79\00:24:51.43
of the state as we
should not be the servant
00:24:51.44\00:24:54.05
of one ideology. We
should be the servant
00:24:54.06\00:24:56.96
of God first and
you know, we have,
00:24:56.97\00:24:59.28
we have to develop the
critical spirit not to be
00:24:59.90\00:25:02.62
against of those
who want to be good,
00:25:02.63\00:25:04.85
critical in the sense of
analytical, yeah analytical
00:25:04.86\00:25:07.41
yeah to say, okay
you know, what you say
00:25:07.42\00:25:10.17
is good, but you know,
which is very important
00:25:10.18\00:25:14.63
for us is the Gospel
and the Bible gave us the
00:25:14.64\00:25:17.93
possibility to take
some distance because
00:25:17.94\00:25:21.05
you know, you can be
manipulated it's so easy
00:25:21.06\00:25:23.37
to manipulate people. If
you've taken in your mind
00:25:23.38\00:25:26.65
that what Jesus said
and how would Jesus act,
00:25:26.66\00:25:29.57
you have the possibility
to take some distance
00:25:30.23\00:25:34.07
to world and say
hey that's maybe good,
00:25:34.68\00:25:36.93
but be careful, it
maybe also it may threaten
00:25:37.54\00:25:41.16
you know, what I
believe and the most important
00:25:41.70\00:25:43.94
value. And we need to
honestly apply that what
00:25:43.95\00:25:46.35
would Jesus do model,
do to other what you yeah,
00:25:46.36\00:25:51.45
on that, I still, even
as I say this I can't get
00:25:51.46\00:25:55.63
my mind around it,
but Gary Bow I recently
00:25:55.64\00:25:57.77
appended that well. He
didn't think that Jesus
00:25:57.78\00:26:00.59
himself might be
involved in the torture.
00:26:00.60\00:26:03.51
He was sure that
Jesus would expect every
00:26:03.98\00:26:05.59
follower of his
to torture some one,
00:26:05.60\00:26:07.23
if they were
attract to the community.
00:26:07.24\00:26:09.84
We should do as a
Christian you know,
00:26:10.61\00:26:12.50
we should really live
the values of the Gospel
00:26:12.51\00:26:14.96
and try to, of course
we have to respect the
00:26:15.97\00:26:18.25
society, we have
to respect you know,
00:26:18.26\00:26:19.92
we're good citizen
and so on, but some time
00:26:19.93\00:26:21.60
there is a conflict
and we should not be afraid
00:26:21.61\00:26:23.79
to say, hey go
back to the Gospel.
00:26:23.80\00:26:25.61
We need to live the
principles of the Kingdom
00:26:25.62\00:26:27.46
of Heaven. Yeah
we live, we need,
00:26:27.47\00:26:29.43
we need really and
we need to be, to be so
00:26:29.44\00:26:32.32
much influenced by the
Bible and by the Gospel,
00:26:32.33\00:26:36.30
the Gospel and by what
Jesus say that you know,
00:26:36.31\00:26:39.42
first we go to him,
we go to Jesus and we say
00:26:39.43\00:26:42.47
this is good and this
is bad, and not to go to
00:26:42.75\00:26:45.17
the political speech and so on,
00:26:45.18\00:26:47.59
we have to be
the soul of the era.
00:26:48.14\00:26:50.38
Religious liberty can
mean different things to
00:26:53.04\00:26:55.56
different people in
different situations.
00:26:55.57\00:26:57.49
When we are talking
about internal church affairs,
00:26:58.15\00:27:00.66
it's some times not
quiet the religious liberty
00:27:01.42\00:27:03.78
situations some
imagine. For example recently
00:27:03.79\00:27:07.41
in my church, the Seventh-day
00:27:07.42\00:27:08.79
Adventist Church there
was a series of elections
00:27:08.80\00:27:12.88
and new leaders were
chosen and some people
00:27:12.89\00:27:15.70
who held differing
doctrinal understandings
00:27:15.71\00:27:19.26
to the new leaders
upon that they would likely
00:27:19.27\00:27:21.92
be an inquisition of
course not a Seventh-day
00:27:21.93\00:27:25.34
Adventist word and
the reference to a bad
00:27:25.35\00:27:27.70
phase of history.
But whether or not there
00:27:27.71\00:27:30.99
is likely to be quite
an inquisition I think
00:27:31.00\00:27:34.42
unlikely my self
it's not possible in fact.
00:27:34.99\00:27:37.18
The real point is
that within the church any
00:27:38.03\00:27:40.60
organization much more
a church has every right
00:27:40.61\00:27:43.75
to maintain a doctrinal
integrity and require that
00:27:44.51\00:27:48.15
someone who
identifies with the church and
00:27:48.16\00:27:51.23
maintains their
membership, maintains a certain
00:27:51.24\00:27:53.46
degree of uniformity
or at least agreement
00:27:53.47\00:27:56.73
with those points. What
we need to hold churches
00:27:56.74\00:27:59.90
accountable for is
un-Christian, un-civil and
00:28:01.09\00:28:04.76
compulsive ways that
they deal with the decedents.
00:28:04.77\00:28:08.18
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:09.59\00:28:12.29