Liberty Insider

Revival

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript

Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), John Graz

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Series Code: LI

Program Code: LI000114


00:21 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:23 This is the program that brings you
00:25 up-to-date news, views, and discussion about
00:28 religious liberty issues. My name is Lincoln
00:31 Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine, and my
00:33 guest on the program is Dr. John Graz,
00:35 Director of our Religious Department at the World
00:38 Head Quarters of the Seventh day Adventist Church.
00:41 I am glad to be with you Lincoln.
00:42 It's always a pleasure to have you as a
00:43 guest on this program. This is not the first time
00:46 nor I hope the last. You know revival is a very
00:50 key concept for Christians and indeed people
00:53 of most dynamic faiths around the world and
00:56 through the ages. I've been impressed lately
00:59 as I've read in the book of Ezra.
01:01 That's recorded in the Old Testament of how Ezra,
01:06 a Jew that had been part of the dispersion
01:09 after Nebuchadnezzar's defeat of Israel.
01:11 Coming back to try to rebuild the temple and
01:15 finding a people nominally following God,
01:18 nominally going through religious services
01:22 but really almost dead, spiritually dead and to
01:25 read of Ezra, how he first of all was personally
01:29 afflicted by this and how he went
01:31 about generating religious enthusiasm.
01:35 Yes, it's so important you know in every
01:37 religion I should say, even in a national feeling.
01:40 You know, you need to have a revival,
01:43 because it's the natural nature like that.
01:45 After a while, you know people are just
01:48 becoming very formal and they believe,
01:50 without believing they are more attracted
01:53 by the things around them and they lose the
01:55 vision, they lose the direction. Yeah,
01:57 the energy of any organization and particularly
02:00 a religious group that just dissipates,
02:01 and they lose the identity and then they're
02:04 gone. And then where you know,
02:05 it happened here is to many, many,
02:07 in many fields you know. Time to time you can
02:09 see an organization saying that we have to go
02:11 back to the real purpose, our real mission and
02:15 of course for a church it's so vital to come back
02:18 to the purpose of the church. Why are we here,
02:21 you know, why the people of Israel that was
02:23 the case during the time of Ezra. What are we
02:26 doing here, what is the meaning of our life?
02:30 It starts there that he found that they had
02:34 intermarried with the not so much that they
02:37 were forbidden people, but those peoples around
02:40 them were worshiping other Gods. They
02:42 represented another system and that mingled
02:44 themselves with it, that they were not,
02:46 and he afflicted himself and he says, you know,
02:49 how could this be he says, we're remnant,
02:51 we're escaped and you spared us and now if
02:54 we pull back into this. He says, you know
02:56 wouldn't you almost consume us entirely.
02:58 You know what's to happen and you know you
03:01 loose the goal. You lose the point you know,
03:04 imagine that you are working because you are
03:07 working because you want to reach one point
03:11 and so then leave or still working and you stop
03:13 to work and you look on the right and you
03:14 look on left and after you say. There is no way
03:17 what are we doing here. You know it remind
03:19 me when I was young and I was running you
03:22 know when you run for one or two miles
03:26 maybe more some time. Some time you want
03:28 to stop or you can also be distract and you'll
03:31 look at the right and you'll look at the left and
03:33 you say oh maybe I should stop. What is the
03:36 meaning of me? Why, why, it's very hard,
03:38 why you have to do that and you lose you know
03:41 the point of arrival, you lose it. And at this
03:44 moment when you lose it, you lose it everything
03:47 can happen and you may lose the meaning
03:50 of your life. This is what happen in church too.
03:56 Ezra doesn't prove that absolutely, but I believe
03:59 that revival personally and even corporately
04:03 tends to come at moments of great stress.
04:06 Where there's a conflict and every thing is
04:08 shaken and of course with Ezra this is what
04:11 had happened, I mean, he comes back to find
04:14 a ruined city, a ruined temple. He was questioning,
04:18 not questioning but looking again at you know,
04:21 what was God going to with them.
04:22 How could he deal with this group and when your
04:25 world was turned upside down, that's the moment
04:27 I believe the most opportune moment for
04:29 revival, because you can rediscover what this
04:33 faith means to you. And it can happen also at
04:35 the moment where you are thinking about
04:38 you know what I am doing exactly, what is
04:41 really the purpose of my life, and you feel
04:45 that you are on the point of losing the purpose
04:49 of your life. And there is kind of a vital reaction,
04:51 saying hey be careful you are going to lose the
04:56 reason and the purpose of your life. Yeah, now
05:00 I had mentioned on this program with another
05:04 guest how impressed I was earlier this year,
05:07 when we're filming this in 2010. Earlier this
05:10 year our Seventh-day Adventists World
05:13 convocation in Atlanta, Georgia chose a new
05:15 President. Dr. Ted Wilson and after he was
05:19 elected, he gave a very inspiring Sabbath sermon.
05:24 And I don't know that he's used the word arrival,
05:26 he may have, but he was arguing for it
05:30 and throwing out the distinctive Sabbath faith.
05:33 Yeah he preach about you know going forward
05:36 not backward, right and I found it very inspired
05:39 as did many others. In fact, I told him later
05:42 I said it's almost like Adventism has come out
05:45 of exile and you and I have seen somethings
05:48 since his election and it's always a little
05:50 dangerous to personalize something but he's
05:53 certainly the individual leading our Church,
05:55 that is, is acting as a catalyst for a revival.
06:01 And it's interesting to see this and I think we're
06:04 following a biblical model and I have a great
06:06 expectation that we may indeed see something
06:10 special in this Seventh- Day Adventist Church
06:12 in the next weeks and months. I think you
06:13 know it was confirmed during the last annual
06:16 council where you know all the delegates
06:19 from the world came, every year to the world
06:21 headquarters and of course at this time was
06:25 really something exceptional. You know on
06:27 the theme of revival and reformation,
06:31 that was really people spend. We spend more
06:33 time in praying, more time in reading the Bible,
06:37 more time in talking about what God is
06:41 doing for us. Instead just to work about
06:43 administrative issues, you know the
06:45 administrative portion was really limited,
06:48 but the spiritual one was really a lot of
06:52 pressure. They evaluated administrative issues.
06:54 Yes, but Jesus said if you're concerned with
06:59 this lesser things and not taken and paid
07:01 attention to the major things you might as
07:03 well not bother. And the result was you
07:05 know most of the delegates were so pleased
07:09 about. They said that it's refreshing;
07:13 it's encouraging, now we really we come
07:16 back to these, the great future. It doesn't
07:18 mean that before, you know, we were far
07:20 away. I think it's just something which
07:23 happened on time, we need that and the
07:26 church need that and revival also has to
07:30 be understand in a right sense. You know,
07:32 they say that the consequence, the fruits
07:35 of the revival is. You read more of your Bible,
07:37 you pray more and you also act you know
07:42 you act more to, to change your behavior,
07:44 you change your behavior and you really
07:46 in the center of the revival is the love of God.
07:49 God loves us and want to save us.
07:54 I believe we've been coming to an inevitability
07:57 or an inevitable need for a revival for long
08:00 time. In Liberty magazine, I often in
08:02 editorials point out, what I think is the obvious,
08:06 people sometimes miss it. But there is way
08:08 too much religion in the world, but not enough
08:10 spirituality, yeah, yeah you're right,
08:11 religion without spirituality as we've seen
08:14 would not live with this, a great curse and
08:18 it leads to all sorts of bad behavior.
08:21 But the stresses that modern society,
08:23 modernization, the move to the city,
08:26 the growing gulf between the rich and poor,
08:29 the industrialization with all of the pollution
08:32 and so, all of these things are incredible social
08:35 stresses around the world. And as always
08:38 religion is an important focus for people to
08:42 raise their sights higher and give them hope
08:44 for another world, you can even put it that way.
08:47 So they need the spiritual regeneration.
08:50 And I think it's growing, it's need is universal,
08:53 it's not just within the Seventh-Day Adventist
08:55 Church, but since you and I are in that
08:57 church, since we have reason to believe
09:00 that this is like Ezra, a remnant group called
09:02 to proclaim God's mercy to an end time world.
09:06 Surely we need to be revived. We need
09:09 reexamine what we are and why we are,
09:12 and what we do day - to-day and it's not
09:14 just revival. It's reformation, in other
09:16 words reform. Look at ourselves, recoup,
09:22 re-gather, re-discover and then move on
09:24 more strongly into this new reality.
09:25 And also something that President Ted
09:29 Wilson on the line. He say that revival means
09:32 more simplicity and I agree totally with that.
09:36 You know when we are religious leader.
09:37 We are not CEO, we are not really the boss,
09:41 what we are, we are first disciple of Jesus,
09:46 we are first spiritual leader then after we
09:49 become expert or administrator and so on,
09:51 but first and some time we tend to forget
09:54 that. We are first disciple of Jesus and
09:58 that's an important point too. And also
10:01 you mentioned also the fact that we have
10:02 to be careful when we talk and we come
10:06 back in a revival about pantheism,
10:09 because the best way to kill revival is
10:12 pantheism. Well pantheism, whether it's in
10:16 the church or even in the society,
10:19 every, every, civil sphere leads to lawlessness
10:23 and revolution and mayhem obviously
10:27 and religion is the same. That's why I
10:29 think it's important to point out revival and
10:31 reformation. A reexamination and a
10:35 reordering of our priorities, that's a mental
10:39 process, it isn't just an emotional letting
10:41 loose of a frenzy and as you know there's
10:44 been times in recent recorded history
10:49 where religious hysteria has come upon
10:53 people and often that is precipitated by
10:55 the stresses that are referred to earlier.
10:58 So it's nothing today, but in response to
11:02 the stress or and to deal with stress we
11:04 need a revival, but if you let the stress
11:07 create the emotional chaos. Yes, a false
11:13 religion can move in and the people
11:15 you know because still you know we deal
11:16 with something wonderful is happening,
11:18 but that's not religion. No we deal with
11:19 human hysteria, you know we deal with
11:22 human nature, people are superstitious.
11:24 It means revival can become also something
11:27 superstitious, yeah, something just emotional,
11:30 but the real revival will lead people to the
11:33 study of the word of God. To do something
11:36 in a society, to help people and not just
11:38 emotion, because it could be very dangerous
11:40 also to, to let your emotion dominate you.
11:44 But, let me play, I'm always the quiet,
11:46 I hope not that the devil's that wicked,
11:48 but the other side. It seems to me religion
11:51 devoid of emotion is a sad thing. If we're
11:56 dealing with higher values and grand and
11:59 all inspiring themes of creator and even
12:03 as the Bible says a war in heaven for our
12:06 very destiny. I mean this is exciting stuff.
12:09 I have children that will we don't, we don't
12:12 show them the stuff and if they go into a
12:14 shop and they see Star Wars or something
12:16 play, they get all excited. But you know
12:18 we're actually involved in something far
12:21 more important than that, far more cosmic
12:26 conflict. Exactly, but you know also,
12:28 emotion is called for, but not emotionalism,
12:30 exactly, we should be enthused about
12:33 this type of topic. You know why because
12:35 emotion is a very strong feeling and you
12:37 can manipulate people with emotion.
12:40 You know we see that all the time,
12:41 publicity you know use emotion to strong,
12:45 you know to help us to buy the things and many,
12:48 many, many leaders in the world we have
12:51 seen during they use emotion. When they
12:53 want people give their life for their
12:55 country very often they use emotion.
12:57 Yes, and we don't want to be manipulated,
13:00 but we do want to have emotion about
13:03 something so important as religion.
13:05 We'll be back after the break to further
13:07 discussion religious liberty and revival.
13:19 One-hundred years, a long time to do anything
13:22 much less publish a magazine,
13:25 but this year Liberty, the Seventh-Day Adventist
13:28 voice of religious freedom, celebrates
13:30 one hundred years of doing what it does best,
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13:36 and flow of religious expression
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13:41 Liberty has taken on the tough assignments,
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14:04 that all the important separation of Church
14:06 and State, while recognizing the dangers
14:09 inherent in such a struggle.
14:11 During the past century, Liberty has experienced
14:14 challenges of its own, but it remains
14:16 on the job. Thanks to the inspired leadership
14:19 of a long line of dedicated
14:20 Adventist Editors, three of whom represent
14:22 almost half of the publications existence
14:25 and the foresight of a little woman
14:27 from New England. One hundred years of struggle,
14:30 one hundred years of victories,
14:33 religious freedom isn't just about
14:34 political machines and cultural prejudices.
14:37 It's about people fighting for the right
14:40 to serve the God they love as their hearts
14:43 and the Holy Spirit dictate.
14:46 Thanks to the prayers and generous support
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14:50 Liberty will continue to accomplish its work of
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15:01 bound together by the God ordained
15:04 bonds of religious freedom.
15:15 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider,
15:17 before the break I was talking with
15:19 Dr. John Graz about revival, this is a
15:23 certainly familiar term to Christians and I
15:26 think most other dynamic religions recognize
15:29 the dynamic of reviving the commitment to
15:32 their faith, but for Seventh-Day Adventist,
15:35 it's a loaded term the last really big
15:40 organization of revival phenomenon
15:42 was over a century ago in 1888,
15:46 the then editor of the Religious Liberty
15:48 journal for our relatively small church there,
15:52 E.T. Jones, seeing what he felt was
15:56 prophetic fulfillments coming very close
15:58 to the final conflict between those that
16:02 would force complies to religious edict
16:04 and those that would follow their conscience
16:07 in worship and freedom. He saw that
16:09 coming to ahead and he believed we
16:10 need revival and he spoke at our general
16:13 conference meetings in 1888 and he
16:17 argued very forcibly, Biblically for revival
16:20 and some of our fellows Adventists tried
16:22 to deconstruct his message. You know I
16:23 don't want to get into that, but it is
16:25 undeniable that he was arguing for
16:27 revival as a consequence of the situation
16:31 in the world, in our world, I think today
16:33 we're at a similar point. You can easily look
16:36 around the world and disarray and on the
16:38 religious liberty front a very mixed bag and
16:41 argue that it's going to get worse, and say
16:44 that we need revival. And also you know
16:47 seeing that we need revival means that we
16:49 are aware of that everything is not doing
16:52 well. You know that you need to have
16:55 some humility to recognize and no body;
16:58 no organization wants to recognize that
17:01 you know we are not at the best.
17:03 We are not at the best, we need revival,
17:05 we need reformation, it means there is
17:07 something that we need to correct and
17:10 maybe for some people we don't need.
17:13 You know we are always have done our
17:15 best, why we should need revival,
17:17 especially revival. It's an interesting point,
17:19 you reminding me something and this is
17:21 not even a slightly critical statement,
17:23 it's just explanatory to what's happening
17:26 now. In North America, the division or doing
17:30 some necessary house cleaning to again
17:32 reorganize and move forward strongly and
17:35 there's been a number of days spent in
17:36 looking at the organizational structure.
17:40 And I made a comment to someone and
17:41 I think I'll just say it very clearly.
17:43 Though North America is not failing
17:47 in a structural organizational, since
17:48 they're compared to the rapid growth
17:50 in another division because it's fully
17:52 organized. Organization is not in itself
17:56 the key to spiritual advancement or the
17:58 advancement of our belief system.
18:01 No, it's true because and ultimately it
18:03 depends on the God's power. But how
18:06 it's utilized in the being, how we express
18:09 that, how motivated we are. And Christianity
18:12 is increasing around the world not by
18:14 the organized, the best organized bodies,
18:17 by independent. A lot of independent
18:20 churches are growing everywhere.
18:23 It means organization is probably a
18:25 blessing but it could become also another
18:27 blessing if it control everything and you
18:30 know if you have no right to do anything
18:33 and if the goal of the organization is not
18:36 really to do the best for developing the
18:40 church but just to control, to be sure
18:43 that they master everything, that
18:45 would be not a blessing in this case.
18:47 You know where when I think about the
18:49 revival as a Seventh - day Adventist I
18:51 automatically think about Elijah.
18:55 Once upon a time our church in it's early
18:57 days spoke of the Elijah message,
18:59 a revival emphasis toward the end of all
19:02 things, but you go back to the Old Testament
19:05 and man, when Elijah came, God's people,
19:10 the children of Israel as they were,
19:11 then were basically worshiping every thing
19:14 but God wasn't just bad or, a terrible time,
19:18 and it was a time of great lapsing and we're
19:23 told in the New Testament speaking of
19:24 Elijah, it says, he was a man like us but he
19:28 was so disturbed by what he saw that
19:31 he was convinced that God must act.
19:34 And I think today is an analog to that,
19:37 you know it's fine to say yes there must
19:39 be revival. If that's done wrongly that's
19:41 just someone stubbornness or you
19:43 know revive, we can't do that, but I
19:46 think anyone with a little spiritual
19:48 sensitivity should be able to look at the
19:51 situation in the world in general and the
19:53 Christian world more particularly and
19:55 perhaps even in our own church and say
19:58 these conditions are such that God must
20:01 act. Should not forget Lincoln that these
20:04 revival is really linked to the mission,
20:08 the mission of the church, it means it's
20:10 not the state of church which is you know
20:12 like the church in the middle age or the people
20:14 of Israel during the judges, but it's,
20:17 if we want really to fulfill the mission,
20:20 we cannot do it, with what we have,
20:22 we are too small, we don't have enough
20:25 power and so on. We need the Holy Spirit,
20:28 how can we get the Holy Spirit, just in
20:30 praying. We need revival to accomplish
20:33 our mission. Absolutely, now I agree with
20:36 you and you're singing the song that I've
20:38 sometimes saw in our religious liberty
20:39 circles. Your office and your associates do
20:43 a wonderful work, but you know three
20:45 people what can you do. Yeah, exactly,
20:47 what can we do in the world? It's God
20:48 mercy and miracle we have a such an
20:50 impact and it's really, only because of his
20:53 enabling that we can reach out in such
20:56 a powerful way, but we don't have the
20:57 man power. But we need to remember,
20:59 was it Gideon, a few thousands answered
21:03 to the call, but that was too many God
21:05 said and so stopped at the river and they
21:07 were filtered out those that wouldn't even
21:10 get down to lap the water and what was
21:13 it 300, 300 at the end. So it's not numbers,
21:16 not numbers. We need to keep that in mind.
21:18 Not numbers, but the power of God,
21:20 not human planning, but human need
21:22 to plan to seek God and that will lead to
21:25 revival. You know Lincoln, when we start
21:27 the festival of religious freedom. You know
21:29 I read the text in the Bible, you know where
21:32 God said 'I will make you, the Lord will
21:34 make you the head and not the tail. '
21:36 And I thought that, you know, if God,
21:38 it's a promise from God. We should
21:40 really try and at this time I had no
21:43 idea that we could fill the stadium,
21:46 many tens of thousands coming to these,
21:48 no idea, but we start you know and my
21:49 goal was ten thousand, a stadium with 10000
21:52 people in 2009. But I said you know I pray
21:55 the Lord and I say I want to take your
21:57 promise seriously and you know what
21:59 happened. Instead to have ten thousand
22:02 in 2009 we had forty five thousand in
22:07 2009. It means you know God can do the
22:11 work but we have to be a useful tool.
22:15 We are really to surrender to him.
22:17 Exactly and I think this is what's
22:20 happening in the Seventh-Day Adventist
22:21 church now on and I do what our viewers
22:23 and our fellow Adventists to recognize
22:25 that something is happening. I've been
22:28 around awhile, and you have too and we
22:30 don't know exactly how we'll develop and
22:33 where it will end up. I'm hundred percent
22:36 sure we are in process now and there will
22:38 be a revival. You know I was very,
22:40 and I think it's a wonderful offering to
22:43 give to God, it's not demand for revival.
22:47 It's the conditions have been created for
22:49 revival. And at these meetings that you
22:51 referred to earlier, the annual council.
22:54 I saw people repenting of a certain
22:58 cherished attitudes. I saw others with
23:01 tears in their eyes, others were just so
23:04 excited to see God's Spirit moving and
23:06 I know in this sort of context something
23:09 very good will happen. Also you know
23:11 when you hear someone like Mark Finley.
23:14 Mark Finley saying that, you know the most
23:17 important is not what you're doing but what
23:19 you are. That's really a sign for someone
23:23 who is speaking all the time with thousand
23:26 and thousand people around the world.
23:28 You're not saying, it's not what you are
23:30 doing which is important it is who you are,
23:33 of course. And, in fact, if you're not right
23:36 with God, lots of activity is counter protective.
23:41 God will somehow work through that even
23:43 with an imperfect instrument, but the
23:44 more that we are in harmony with the God,
23:47 the more effective that talking and acting
23:49 him will be. We are doing a lot of things.
23:52 You know as a church it's fabulous.
23:54 We're building churches, building a hospital,
23:57 we have a lot of evangelistic campaign,
24:00 we're fighting, you know for a better life
24:03 and so on, so on. And some time we believe that,
24:06 that's okay we're doing what we have to
24:07 do and we forget the essential is our
24:11 relations with God. You know and also
24:14 now we have a mission to fulfill.
24:16 How can we fulfill the mission without God
24:18 helping us, that's just impossible. These are
24:22 good things, but they are incomplete
24:24 without complete, the appropriate spiritual
24:27 fervor and I can't say too often to our
24:31 viewers too much in this context to pass
24:34 on what I believe fervently in my heart
24:37 something is about to happen. Yeah.
24:40 I believe that for a number of years now,
24:41 but I see the signs and in front of me
24:48 church has released at the annual council,
24:50 God's promised gift, an urgent appeal for
24:53 revival, reformation, discipleship and
24:55 evangelism. I'm sure similar things have
24:58 come up before, but this document in the
25:01 context of what I see, of people really
25:03 being broken, and revitalized and reexamining
25:07 their lives. There's a stirring isn't it?
25:10 Yeah. And there was a biblical term,
25:12 stirring in the myrtle leaves.
25:14 Something is about to happen, it's very good,
25:16 yeah it's very good, something really
25:17 wonderful. Very good and very balanced
25:19 document, you know encouraging us
25:21 to go back to the Bible reading, to pray
25:24 more and also to take the decision.
25:27 You know to everyday at 7 O'clock in the
25:29 morning you know we should pray and all
25:32 the Adventists around the world we
25:34 should pray. And this is what I said,
25:35 when we talk about this document.
25:37 I say it's not just for Adventist,
25:38 should be for all Christians around the world,
25:40 across the world, because revival is for
25:42 all, not just for us. And when Adventist
25:44 revive they will have more energy and
25:46 impetus to go out and tell, yeah, this is
25:49 the proclamation of Nazareth, where Jesus
25:51 said that the Spirit of the Lord is upon
25:54 me because He has anointed me to proclaim.
25:56 Yeah, you know we need the power of
25:58 the God to fulfill our mission. We need the
26:01 power of God to become humble.
26:04 You need to be servant and to avoid to
26:07 follow just the world trends. You know,
26:09 to become really very egocentric and
26:11 so on. In my ministry, you know I feel
26:14 really I need revival. I need to read the
26:17 Bible more. I need to really to be a servant
26:20 and an ambassador of God,
26:22 everywhere God decide I have to act.
26:27 A few years ago, while visiting Jamaica,
26:30 I went to the out country with an
26:32 Adventist Pastor, who was filling in for
26:34 a local independent church and heard
26:36 him preach arousing revival sermon.
26:39 During the sermon there were women
26:41 bouncing up and down the aisle on their
26:43 knees, on a sort of a Cossack dance,
26:46 a frenzy. Eventually, one of them run up
26:48 and down the street yelling out 'come
26:50 home Moses. ' It seemed like an incredibly
26:54 emotional "revival. " However, it did bother
26:58 me a little later to notice some of those
27:00 same women gyrating to the Reggae music
27:03 on a improvised battery record player.
27:07 Revival is a loaded term, how do we get
27:11 to that point. An analogy to the disciples
27:14 that are gathered in the upper room
27:15 when literal flames of Holy Spirit fire
27:18 descended on them. And they were energized
27:21 to change the world. The world in their
27:23 day was changed. The world in our day
27:26 is changing without us. Somehow we need
27:29 to get a hold of the Spirit and take control
27:32 of the agenda for Christ. I do believe
27:36 that the Seventh-day Adventist church
27:38 has revival in it's future. And, as we
27:40 follow the biblical model of not just revival,
27:43 but a reformation of Bible based
27:47 introspection of preparing ourselves in
27:49 our lives and in our behavior for God's
27:52 working, great things will happen.
27:55 Young men will see visions and old men will
27:59 have dreams. It's prophesied,
28:01 it will happen. We must pray for it.
28:05 For Liberty Insider this is Lincoln Steed.


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Revised 2014-12-17