Welcome to the Liberty Insider,
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this is the program
that brings you up to
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date news, views
and discussion on
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religious liberty issues.
My name is Lincoln Steed,
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editor of
Liberty Magazine, and my
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guest on the
program is Dr. John Graz,
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welcome John.
Thank you very much
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Lincoln. You're
not new to this program
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but some of our
viewers might not
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have seen you
before or for a while, yes.
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And I'll remind
them, that tell me your
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position you
and I worked closely
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together but, you
have several hats.
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Yeah, I have several
hats, the first one is
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I'm Director of the
Department of Public
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Affairs and Religious
Liberty of the General
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Conference of the
Seventh-day Adventist,
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sitting at the
world headquarters,
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at the world headquarters, yeah,
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the second hat is I
am Secretary-General
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of the
International Religious Liberty
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Association, and I
have also several hats
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I don't if we can
talk about but at least you
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know I'm involved
in several things yeah.
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And involve maybe
is the keyword that we
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can pursue a little
bit. I know you've been
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traveling a lot
lately, yes, not just in the
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United States but
all over the world,
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and there are
many activities for
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Religious Liberty particularly.
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Yeah you know in
my ministry I meet
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officials,
government or sometime head of
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state ministers
but always we give the
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idea to promote and
defend religious freedom.
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We visit countries
or I visit countries,
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my team visit
countries where you
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know religious
freedom is threatened or where
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we have a
problem, where people are
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prosecuted for their
faiths, for their beliefs.
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And also we
organize and I organize
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meeting events like congresses,
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symposium, forums, international
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congresses and
every five years we
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organize a world congresses on
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religious
freedom, which is becoming
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one of the major event
about religious freedom.
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And we organize also
every year festival of
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religious freedom,
which are a big, big
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gathering you know promoting and
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defending religious freedom.
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We have sometimes 40,000, 45,000
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people, yeah. And
we discussed on this
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program before one
that I attended with
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you in Dominican
Republic. Not too long ago you
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were in Jordan.
Yeah, I was in Jordan
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with a team of
experts. Tell us about that.
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You know every year
we have a meeting of
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experts. It means we
try to select the best
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experts in the world
in the field of religious
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freedom and we brought about 20
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experts to Jordan.
And for the first time
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we work with, or
as a partner you know
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with an association
for Jordan, it is the
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Arab Bridge
Center and we had for the
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first time you know
the possibility to do
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something about
religious freedom in
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Middle East, and
where we talk about
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respect of
religion. You know teaching,
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respect of
religion and we had Imam,
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Muslim Imam of course we first,
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we have orthodox
archbishop and so on.
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It means we had
not just a few group of
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believers, but we
have people believing in
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different faiths,
and we wanted really
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to promote religious freedom.
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You cannot promote
religious freedom just
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with people who
believe already in
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religious freedom, you
are really to try to expand.
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Yeah, religion by
definition needs to
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reach out, to reach out, yeah.
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But there are some
critics and you all
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know your
predecessor over the years was
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criticized
sometimes for even talking to
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other groups that
had quite different
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theological view
points, but you know
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how would explain
our need to dialogue
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and perhaps even
to share our religious
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view point with
another group, is it
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profitable, what comes of it?
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But I think first
you know, religious
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freedom is like
health, it's like
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doing something against poverty,
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andd so it means it's
not something which has
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to be closely restricted to one
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religion or one
face, or one church.
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We have to try to
build a coalition,
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to defend the
values we believe in.
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It means that there
is no restriction and it
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has been always the
case in the history of
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the Adventist
Church. You know at the
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beginning of our
history someone like
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Ellen White was
invited to speak about
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temperance by
other churches, and she
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give meetings sometimes Saturday
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afternoon talking
about health, it means
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it's for all people.
And I think that it makes
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us very strong in our position.
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It means we have
a history behind.
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We have always been open, and we
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understand that
you cannot promote and
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defend religious freedom alone.
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You are really
to share this value
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because if you are
alone, you are a small
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minority and you
have no chance, right.
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And also because
about our beliefs,
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our theology, what does
it mean religious freedom?
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The core of
religious freedom is the
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freedom of choice,
and if you read you
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know the Great
Controversy or the book,
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Patriarchs and
Prophets, you will see that is.
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It is our ministry
in Nazareth again with
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that very concept,
exactly. The liberation from
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sin which is tied up
to the proclamation of
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the gospel. And people have
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their right you know
we, God give us these
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faculty to choose,
the right to choose,
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that the possibility to choose.
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There are so many
beautiful texts if
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you'll read
Patriarchs and Prophets and
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some other you know
about the right to choose.
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It's a gift from
God and you have to
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protect this gift,
and you have to share,
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we have to share
this gift. And do you see,
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I mean I think
its obvious as we talk
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about religious
freedom even to other religious
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groups, even to
other Christians in a sense
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where we're
preaching the gospel to them,
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and they may not
understand it the same
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way, so we can
clarify truth for them.
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Yeah, religious
freedom doesn't mean
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the same for
all people, does it?
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Some people it's,
it's an intervention to
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protect their
viewpoint, where as you said,
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religious freedom
ultimately is the right
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of man to choose
on the broad front.
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Exactly you know
what is the alternative
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of religious
freedom. You know if you
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don't have
religious freedom, you have to
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force people,
not to just opposing,
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being opposed to
the Christian values.
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You don't want to
force people because
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God did not force
anyone to love Him or
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to follow Him that's
very, that's my point.
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Yeah you got on to
a good point there,
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that I really like
our viewers to recognize,
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Seventh Adventist
have always believed
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in and perhaps
we speak more in the
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coming months and
years about Revelation 13.
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This is a great
prophetic development, where a
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political and
religious coalition will compel
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to a certain
religious viewpoint, and the
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key there is compel isn't it.
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Yeah compel, yeah
exactly. On one level you could
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say well it's great
that the world will come
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to a point where
religion is seen as
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very important yeah
but that's the moment
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of greatest danger,
exactly, when the motion.
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We should never
forget that we are
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human nature, we
have a human nature.
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It means when we are
powerful, we could be
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very dangerous, even
if we use know Christian
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symbol and
Christian face, we can
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be very dangerous.
This is why there is
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very important text
for us, it's a quotation
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of Ellen White
about religious freedom.
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She said the banner of
the truce and religious
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liberty, you know
which has been given
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to the founding of
the Christian church now
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has been committed to our hands;
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you know the banner
that, I think that's a
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beautiful image.
You know you imagine
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just a banner and many people,
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most of the people
will say that, would
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say that if we
have truce on the banner
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that's enough, we
don't need anything else.
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What is more
important than truth?
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Which you say and
Religious Liberty, why?
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Because you can have truth and
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persecute other
people. You can have truth
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and force other
people to follow the
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truth or your truth.
Well it's truth fully
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applied, yeah
exactly, the application of
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truth has to be in
this principle as God said,
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come let us
reason together, yeah.
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There is a consequence
to following the wrong
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course of action, but of course.
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But also the
Bible says, doesn't it,
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vengeance is mine says God.
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Yeah you and I
before the beginning of this
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program we talk about a very
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interesting film of,
was it in the 50's or
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the 60's. The
Seventh Seal a film maker
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Ingmar Bergman.
But it has a classic
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scene there
where there's a priest
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shouting invective
at his listeners and
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giving them a harsh idea of God,
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know you're
evil people repent or
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they'll be
punishments from God on you.
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And then that sermon
is followed by a very
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literal flagellation
of people that are so
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intimidated by what
God might do to them.
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We need to explain
to people I think with
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religious freedom, that
is not the way to operate.
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That God has given
opportunity for each
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of us to find him,
and you and I might see
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that someone is
looking in the wrong
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corner for God, yeah.
But we, it's not given
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to us to restrict
what they're doing or to
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compel them even
to go the right way.
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And to even to
say who are saved and
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who are not,
you know that is the
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privilege of God.
And you know it's so
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difficult to get
the balance you know
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especially in
religion you know you can
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have a very good
intention and become,
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you know sometime
in history the worst
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people for
freedom, who are the most
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convinced people about religion.
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They were sure that
they have the truth,
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they have to defend
a great ideal, but they
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used the wrong
way, they forced people.
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They established a
kind of dictatorship
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which has nothing
to do with God's love,
00:10:06.25\00:10:08.10
and the result and
we see that in several
00:10:08.11\00:10:10.53
countries today
you know the result
00:10:10.54\00:10:13.01
is people don't
understand that God
00:10:13.02\00:10:15.30
loves them.
They believe that God
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is terror, that God
wants to force, that is
00:10:18.24\00:10:21.86
just the opposite of
the character of God.
00:10:21.87\00:10:24.05
Well this seems a
good time to deject
00:10:24.27\00:10:26.66
the principle that
this program is always
00:10:26.67\00:10:29.81
based on and how
Seventh-day Adventists
00:10:29.82\00:10:31.44
Religious Liberty
work is premised on
00:10:31.45\00:10:33.26
separation of church and state.
00:10:33.47\00:10:35.02
And I think a major
reason behind that is
00:10:35.46\00:10:39.19
you always have an
element of force when
00:10:39.20\00:10:41.24
you get the state
involved with religion,
00:10:41.25\00:10:43.24
because primarily
the state uprights on
00:10:43.61\00:10:46.35
force, it has legal mechanisms,
00:10:46.36\00:10:48.46
it has police and
military and so on.
00:10:48.47\00:10:50.64
It's not really on
the level of the churches
00:10:50.95\00:10:54.12
of the mind and the
spirit. It can only do the
00:10:54.13\00:10:56.93
mechanical which
is force compliance.
00:10:56.94\00:10:59.10
Yeah and you see,
so you are on danger
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ground when you get
church and state together.
00:11:01.17\00:11:02.72
Exactly and we see that
in some countries today,
00:11:02.73\00:11:05.02
you know, where
you know you have a
00:11:05.03\00:11:07.09
main church or a
religion which one's
00:11:07.55\00:11:10.48
really to have
privileges and power and how
00:11:10.49\00:11:13.99
can you do that, which
are attacked by some others.
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They went to keep
their rule and had be
00:11:18.01\00:11:20.82
the number one in the country.
00:11:20.83\00:11:22.34
Can you do that
in making a deal with
00:11:22.99\00:11:25.56
the government?
You know very easy,
00:11:25.57\00:11:27.70
you know we help
you, you help us.
00:11:27.71\00:11:29.92
You know soon we
will have election,
00:11:30.43\00:11:31.94
we will help you,
but be careful we need
00:11:32.37\00:11:35.50
your help too,
how? We have competitor,
00:11:35.51\00:11:38.29
you know people
are taking us or people
00:11:38.30\00:11:40.21
are building other
church or the temple
00:11:40.22\00:11:42.36
and so on. You have
to protect us and yes,
00:11:42.37\00:11:45.82
you have a deal,
and how can you protect
00:11:45.83\00:11:48.68
and the state
will protect enforcing
00:11:48.69\00:11:51.08
people not to do
that and sometimes at a
00:11:51.09\00:11:54.02
very low level, but
there it is, where there
00:11:54.03\00:11:55.71
are incentives,
there are disincentives,
00:11:55.72\00:11:57.53
exactly, and for to
have the state monitor
00:11:57.54\00:11:59.95
and apply those
is antithetical to
00:11:59.96\00:12:02.45
religious
freedom. Yeah, and you know
00:12:02.46\00:12:04.21
the state as you say
the state has so many
00:12:04.22\00:12:06.60
possibilities, they
can pass legislation
00:12:06.61\00:12:09.69
which, and now you
have no possibility to
00:12:09.70\00:12:12.61
bring missionary, you
have no possibility to
00:12:12.62\00:12:15.00
open a new school,
you have no possibility
00:12:15.01\00:12:17.31
to develop your
seminaries or build church.
00:12:17.32\00:12:20.88
There are so many,
so many ways, but it's
00:12:20.89\00:12:23.03
very dangerous
at the other side.
00:12:23.04\00:12:24.69
After a little
break we will be back,
00:12:25.96\00:12:27.47
I want to continue
this discussion with
00:12:27.48\00:12:29.20
Dr. Graz. And we
will talk about how it is
00:12:29.21\00:12:32.18
around the world
in certain countries.
00:12:32.19\00:12:34.17
What is the state of
the religious freedom?
00:12:34.49\00:12:35.92
One-hundred
years, a long time to do
00:12:44.58\00:12:47.53
anything much less
publish a magazine,
00:12:47.54\00:12:49.87
but this year Liberty,
the Seventh-day Adventist
00:12:50.28\00:12:53.45
voice of religious
freedom, celebrates
00:12:53.46\00:12:55.56
one hundred years of
doing what it does best,
00:12:55.57\00:12:58.35
collecting,
analyzing, and reporting the ebb
00:12:58.78\00:13:01.69
and flow of
religious expression around the
00:13:01.70\00:13:03.87
world, issue after
issue, Liberty has taken on the
00:13:03.88\00:13:07.69
tough assignments,
tracking down threats
00:13:07.70\00:13:10.09
to religious freedom
and exposing the work
00:13:10.10\00:13:11.87
of the devil in
every corner of the globe.
00:13:11.88\00:13:14.25
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:14.86\00:13:17.12
corporate
assaults, even religious
00:13:17.58\00:13:19.51
freedom issues
sequestered within the
00:13:19.52\00:13:21.03
Church community
itself has been clearly
00:13:21.04\00:13:23.43
and honestly exposed.
Liberty exists for one
00:13:23.44\00:13:26.99
purpose to help God's
people maintain that all
00:13:27.00\00:13:30.40
important
separation of Church and State,
00:13:30.41\00:13:32.68
while recognizing
the dangers inherent
00:13:33.09\00:13:35.19
in such a struggle.
During the past century,
00:13:35.33\00:13:38.00
Liberty has experienced
challenges of its own,
00:13:38.34\00:13:40.44
but it remains on the
job. Thanks to the inspired
00:13:40.95\00:13:44.24
leadership of a long
line of dedicated Adventist
00:13:44.25\00:13:46.61
Editors, three of whom
represent almost half of
00:13:46.62\00:13:49.14
the publications
existence and the
00:13:49.15\00:13:51.07
foresight of a little
woman from New England.
00:13:51.08\00:13:53.62
One hundred years of
struggle, one hundred
00:13:54.13\00:13:56.81
years of victories,
religious freedom isn't
00:13:56.82\00:13:59.69
just about political machines
00:13:59.70\00:14:01.56
and cultural
prejudices. It's about people,
00:14:01.57\00:14:04.55
fighting for the right
to serve the God they love
00:14:05.20\00:14:07.84
as their hearts and
the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:08.28\00:14:11.03
Thanks to the prayers
and generous support of
00:14:11.67\00:14:13.68
Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere.
00:14:13.69\00:14:15.52
Liberty will continue
to accomplish its work of
00:14:16.02\00:14:18.34
providing timely
information, spirit-filled
00:14:18.35\00:14:20.79
inspiration, and
heaven sent encouragement to
00:14:20.80\00:14:23.62
all who long to live
and work in a world bound
00:14:23.63\00:14:27.75
together by the God ordained
00:14:27.76\00:14:29.46
bonds of religious freedom.
00:14:29.47\00:14:31.88
Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:14:40.87\00:14:42.44
Before the break
I was talking with
00:14:42.45\00:14:44.20
Dr. John Graz about
his work globally for
00:14:44.21\00:14:48.66
religious freedom and
the several roles that
00:14:48.67\00:14:51.05
you carry on John.
Let's talk now more
00:14:51.06\00:14:54.15
particularly
about what's going on in
00:14:54.16\00:14:55.94
some of these
countries, I brought
00:14:55.95\00:14:58.40
up the fact
that you had a recent
00:14:58.41\00:14:59.81
conference of
experts in Amman, Jordan.
00:14:59.82\00:15:02.24
Well, that's right,
in the middle of the
00:15:02.80\00:15:04.22
Middle East. In
the United States since
00:15:04.23\00:15:08.28
9/11 we are very
conscious of Islam
00:15:08.29\00:15:10.92
even if we still
know almost nothing
00:15:10.93\00:15:12.49
about it, yeah. It's obvious
00:15:12.88\00:15:15.18
that the nature of
Islam tends to restrict
00:15:15.19\00:15:17.50
not religious
activity but religious activity
00:15:18.08\00:15:20.55
outside the Islamic norm there.
00:15:20.56\00:15:22.53
How did you find
it in Amman which
00:15:23.06\00:15:26.02
I should say has
always been a fairly
00:15:26.53\00:15:28.21
moderate state?
First you have to remember
00:15:28.22\00:15:29.96
that Middle East is
not just a block you
00:15:29.97\00:15:32.39
know, you have
different countries,
00:15:32.40\00:15:34.15
and different
people different people,
00:15:34.16\00:15:36.81
mean Jordan is
probably one place
00:15:36.82\00:15:39.84
which is the most
open in Middle East
00:15:39.85\00:15:42.66
in term of
freedom. You know Christians
00:15:42.67\00:15:45.42
can build churches
and they are building
00:15:45.43\00:15:47.36
new churches close to
the Jordan river which
00:15:47.37\00:15:51.22
is very
interesting. And also they can
00:15:51.23\00:15:53.58
have schools, they
can have a lot of things
00:15:53.59\00:15:56.15
but of course
the restriction, the
00:15:56.16\00:15:57.90
number one restriction
they should not try to
00:15:57.91\00:16:01.07
convert Muslim,
if they do that, they
00:16:01.08\00:16:04.27
may have a lot of problem.
00:16:04.28\00:16:05.54
But you know people
have been there for a
00:16:05.55\00:16:07.73
long time and we
should never forget
00:16:07.74\00:16:09.64
that Christians were
in Middle East before
00:16:09.65\00:16:12.60
the Muslim came,
yes. You know Christian
00:16:12.61\00:16:15.36
have a long
tradition and before the
00:16:15.37\00:16:17.97
crusades about 60 percent of the
00:16:17.98\00:16:20.55
population you know
this is what we used
00:16:20.56\00:16:23.10
to say, were
Christian in Middle East and
00:16:23.11\00:16:26.15
the decline came
after the crusade and of
00:16:26.16\00:16:28.73
course now you have
just a few percentage,
00:16:28.74\00:16:31.66
less and less
Christians are living
00:16:31.67\00:16:34.10
in Middle East.
They leaving Middle
00:16:34.47\00:16:36.17
East to the U.S. or
to Europe, because they
00:16:36.18\00:16:39.52
don't see these
conflicts, yeah and
00:16:39.53\00:16:42.16
also, logical and
religious conflicts,
00:16:42.17\00:16:43.89
and of course, are related and
00:16:43.90\00:16:44.87
uncomfortable.
Yeah, with more and more
00:16:44.88\00:16:47.12
radical Muslim,
you know they feel that
00:16:47.13\00:16:49.16
they have no
future for their children
00:16:49.17\00:16:51.27
there, and they have to leave.
00:16:51.28\00:16:52.68
But still you know
some countries like
00:16:53.06\00:16:54.99
Lebanon but especially Jordan.
00:16:55.00\00:16:57.21
Well Lebanon is a
Christian majority but
00:16:57.22\00:17:00.73
they are very close
to falling fraction,
00:17:00.74\00:17:02.98
less and less, less and
less, but still you have
00:17:02.99\00:17:05.41
a lot of freedom in Lebanon.
00:17:05.42\00:17:07.12
And after I should
say Jordan also give a lot
00:17:07.60\00:17:10.20
of freedom too, but
as I said there are some
00:17:10.21\00:17:12.38
restriction and
you have to be careful
00:17:12.39\00:17:14.09
about that. You
touched on a very
00:17:14.10\00:17:15.34
important point.
People think that
00:17:15.35\00:17:19.07
religious freedom
some of them that it's
00:17:19.08\00:17:20.92
just a matter of
believing what you
00:17:20.93\00:17:22.55
want, yeah. Belief is
a good starting point,
00:17:22.56\00:17:26.47
but then there is
practice, and sharing.
00:17:26.48\00:17:28.65
Well this is
what I was getting at,
00:17:29.44\00:17:30.41
this practice which
is equally important.
00:17:30.42\00:17:32.25
There was a big
fuss in the United States
00:17:32.71\00:17:34.24
recently that it
seems to have blown over
00:17:34.25\00:17:36.07
where the administration
were tending to use
00:17:36.08\00:17:38.20
freedom of worship,
instead of freedom of religion.
00:17:39.19\00:17:42.88
Well worship is
just a basic thing, yeah.
00:17:43.09\00:17:46.48
There's many
things that's implied but
00:17:47.29\00:17:48.71
I think at the end of
the day, it's to believe
00:17:48.72\00:17:50.91
something, it's to
practice it, but it has
00:17:50.92\00:17:53.56
to be both to
share that with someone
00:17:53.57\00:17:56.72
else, and then if
they respond, exactly,
00:17:56.73\00:17:58.48
have them change
their religion or
00:17:58.49\00:18:00.37
modify their
religious viewpoint.
00:18:00.38\00:18:01.95
If you can't change,
it's not only religious
00:18:02.31\00:18:04.75
freedom. It's not
really religious freedom.
00:18:04.76\00:18:06.43
This is why you
are right when you say
00:18:06.44\00:18:09.13
freedom of
worship. There is a big
00:18:09.81\00:18:11.23
difference from my
point of view and we
00:18:11.24\00:18:12.94
see that in the
discussion of the
00:18:12.95\00:18:14.70
United Nation between freedom of
00:18:14.71\00:18:17.16
worship, and religious freedom.
00:18:17.17\00:18:19.26
You know Article
18 of the Universal
00:18:19.72\00:18:21.66
Declaration of
Human Rights, it's about
00:18:21.67\00:18:23.77
religious freedom,
not about freedom of
00:18:23.78\00:18:26.37
worship, and it
includes sharing.
00:18:26.38\00:18:28.80
You are right, and it specifies
00:18:28.81\00:18:30.28
the right to
change. Yeah the right to
00:18:30.29\00:18:32.53
change your religion,
but for in some places
00:18:32.54\00:18:35.53
around the world they
accept freedom of worship.
00:18:35.54\00:18:39.93
This is why when
you speak about freedom
00:18:40.26\00:18:41.70
of worship you know you have no
00:18:41.71\00:18:43.18
opposition except
maybe in North Korea.
00:18:43.19\00:18:46.11
But even in China
they will not argue
00:18:46.48\00:18:48.35
with that, they say
okay freedom of worship.
00:18:48.36\00:18:51.13
But you know you
have the right to teach
00:18:51.14\00:18:53.90
your children, you
have the right to have,
00:18:53.91\00:18:56.79
to build a
church for your people.
00:18:56.80\00:18:58.70
But you have no
right to share what you
00:18:59.13\00:19:01.59
believe and try to
convert other people
00:19:01.60\00:19:03.97
and that is the worst thing.
00:19:04.54\00:19:05.81
So it really means
that those states where
00:19:05.82\00:19:07.47
they have sensed that
religion is important,
00:19:07.48\00:19:11.45
they haven't
understood what religious
00:19:11.98\00:19:13.39
freedom really is
because they want to
00:19:13.40\00:19:15.43
sort of balkanize
it, and just choose
00:19:15.44\00:19:17.80
elements of it.
Yes and also, in some
00:19:17.81\00:19:19.81
places it's all
or nothing I think.
00:19:19.82\00:19:20.83
Of course it goes
to their concept of
00:19:21.42\00:19:23.09
separation
between church and state,
00:19:23.10\00:19:25.18
oh absolutely. And the state has
00:19:25.19\00:19:27.28
always try to become stronger
00:19:27.29\00:19:29.85
in including
church or religion in it.
00:19:29.86\00:19:33.25
You know they
want to control church,
00:19:33.26\00:19:35.55
one church or
several churches and the
00:19:36.20\00:19:39.17
religion and to
control the society through
00:19:39.18\00:19:42.44
the religious organizations
00:19:43.05\00:19:44.39
and the other side
you know churches and
00:19:44.76\00:19:46.88
religion have been
always tempted to use
00:19:46.89\00:19:49.01
their state to
protect themselves against the
00:19:49.02\00:19:51.94
competitors. Now something very
00:19:51.95\00:19:53.71
interesting is happening
at the moment in China.
00:19:53.72\00:19:57.19
We have known for
years that there is the
00:19:58.26\00:20:00.51
government
controlled religious entity with
00:20:01.67\00:20:03.75
the Three-Self
Movement, and then rapidly
00:20:03.76\00:20:07.33
growing, and some
ways overtaking and
00:20:07.34\00:20:09.02
it has been the
home church movement.
00:20:09.03\00:20:11.13
I'm sure you are
aware at the moment,
00:20:12.39\00:20:13.90
of course I do.
Many of these home church
00:20:13.91\00:20:15.29
people are wanting to
attend an international
00:20:15.30\00:20:17.33
religious
conference, yeah, and what
00:20:17.34\00:20:19.68
happened do you
remember? No sometimes, you know
00:20:19.69\00:20:22.21
the Chinese
government have suddenly,
00:20:22.22\00:20:25.18
lately they've just
sort of ignored the home
00:20:27.20\00:20:29.08
church thing. Now when these
00:20:29.09\00:20:30.52
people have
applied to go out, suddenly
00:20:30.53\00:20:32.79
they have not only
refused them the right
00:20:32.80\00:20:34.70
to travel, they've
clamped down on the
00:20:34.71\00:20:36.40
home church and it
looks like we're in for
00:20:36.41\00:20:38.41
a period of some
repression on this
00:20:38.42\00:20:41.05
independent
religious activity in China.
00:20:41.06\00:20:43.24
Yeah, but you know China is very
00:20:43.25\00:20:44.88
complex, it means
you can see in some
00:20:44.89\00:20:47.48
part of China you
are really a kind of
00:20:47.49\00:20:49.45
religious
freedom, it means that the
00:20:49.46\00:20:51.13
government or
the local government
00:20:51.14\00:20:53.55
doesn't really prosecute people.
00:20:53.56\00:20:55.24
In some other
places they are stronger
00:20:55.25\00:20:57.72
against
religion, but you know and
00:20:57.73\00:21:00.05
also under the
umbrella of the Three-Self
00:21:00.06\00:21:02.64
Patriotic
Movement, you have a lot of
00:21:02.65\00:21:04.60
difference, they
accept the Adventist
00:21:04.61\00:21:07.52
are different. Normally everyone
00:21:08.72\00:21:10.88
should be the
same, but you know they
00:21:10.89\00:21:12.76
know that on Saturday
the Adventist go to church,
00:21:12.77\00:21:15.10
they use most of
time Protestant Church and
00:21:15.11\00:21:18.28
for them they are
part of the Three-Self,
00:21:18.29\00:21:20.49
it means okay,
but you know, you have
00:21:20.50\00:21:22.98
to know that you are
part of the Three-Self
00:21:22.99\00:21:25.40
Patriotic
Movement, it means just one
00:21:26.11\00:21:28.34
Protestant Church,
but in fact you know
00:21:28.35\00:21:31.05
people are still
different, and they
00:21:31.06\00:21:32.93
will be different until the end.
00:21:32.94\00:21:34.31
Yeah, I mean
the Three-Self thing
00:21:34.62\00:21:36.37
allows some
freedom but ultimately it's
00:21:36.38\00:21:39.25
government control,
of course it's in clear
00:21:39.26\00:21:42.43
direction of all
sorts of religious behavior.
00:21:42.44\00:21:44.69
So, it's not
absolutely evil, but it is not
00:21:45.10\00:21:48.29
religious freedom
and the chances are that
00:21:48.30\00:21:51.35
the home church movement is more
00:21:51.36\00:21:54.15
spontaneous
religious expression.
00:21:54.68\00:21:56.44
And that's very
difficult to control, yes.
00:21:56.45\00:21:58.69
Actually you have that in China,
00:21:58.70\00:22:00.06
you know in China
we used to say that
00:22:00.07\00:22:02.08
according to the
official figure that
00:22:02.09\00:22:04.39
maybe about 20
million Chinese are
00:22:04.88\00:22:07.97
Protestants,
and most of them are
00:22:07.98\00:22:09.94
Pentecostals, even if
they are in traditional
00:22:09.95\00:22:13.25
organization. And
about six millions
00:22:13.26\00:22:16.52
six to eight
millions are Catholic.
00:22:16.53\00:22:18.19
But you know you
have other figure that
00:22:18.20\00:22:19.83
they say that probably
close to 50 million are
00:22:19.84\00:22:22.81
Protestants there.
It means that's very
00:22:22.82\00:22:24.93
difficult to know how many.
00:22:24.94\00:22:26.97
But it does show
phenomenon religion
00:22:27.27\00:22:30.20
is just one
aspect of human behavior,
00:22:30.56\00:22:32.09
but I think
there is a phenomenon
00:22:32.10\00:22:33.34
something is
what humans innately
00:22:33.35\00:22:37.15
might have a hunger
for, and then if you're
00:22:37.16\00:22:39.79
outlawed, you're
actually going to
00:22:39.80\00:22:41.46
breed it. So, in
some ways the best thing
00:22:41.47\00:22:44.31
that can happen for
religion is that it made
00:22:44.32\00:22:46.98
hard to get or
the government try to
00:22:46.99\00:22:50.04
restrict it directly.
Oh yes, and you will see
00:22:50.05\00:22:52.46
that, it will
flourish; you see that in some
00:22:52.47\00:22:54.17
other countries.
You know the strategy
00:22:54.18\00:22:55.81
of the government is
to recognize a certain
00:22:55.82\00:22:58.85
number of religion
or churches, may be 10,
00:22:58.86\00:23:01.69
may be 12 and try to
establish some criteria.
00:23:01.70\00:23:04.98
Today you know
in Hungary there are
00:23:05.45\00:23:07.02
some discussion
about having a law if you
00:23:07.03\00:23:10.54
don't have
10,000 members you won't
00:23:10.55\00:23:13.12
be recognized as the
church by the government.
00:23:13.13\00:23:16.15
You know it gives a power to the
00:23:16.16\00:23:18.29
government that we
should not say that,
00:23:18.30\00:23:20.30
the government will
say okay you know as
00:23:20.31\00:23:22.06
long as you respect
the law of the country
00:23:22.07\00:23:24.09
yeah you are free
to organize yourself.
00:23:24.42\00:23:26.46
But and also and
you have problem if you
00:23:27.08\00:23:29.71
say you need to be
10,000 in my country
00:23:29.72\00:23:33.14
to be recognized.
It means if you are
00:23:33.15\00:23:35.30
Lutheran and you
are just 1000 members
00:23:35.31\00:23:38.08
you will not be recognized as a
00:23:38.09\00:23:39.70
church, what does it mean?
00:23:39.71\00:23:41.30
You know it has
no sense, if you are
00:23:41.91\00:23:43.10
Catholic and you
are part of the largest
00:23:43.11\00:23:46.36
church Christian
church in the world
00:23:47.80\00:23:48.99
with more than 1.2
billion you are not
00:23:49.00\00:23:52.63
recognized
because you are not 10,000
00:23:52.64\00:23:55.81
members, its
nonsense, but this is what they
00:23:55.82\00:23:58.74
try, why? Because
they want to control.
00:23:58.75\00:24:00.47
Of course and I
think those people who
00:24:00.72\00:24:03.20
might not understand
the Religious Liberty
00:24:03.21\00:24:05.06
argument, when you
put it in the political
00:24:05.07\00:24:07.29
sphere know very
well. Someone is running
00:24:07.30\00:24:09.43
for office and someone they have
00:24:09.44\00:24:10.55
typically have to
get numbers, certain
00:24:10.56\00:24:12.16
number of
signatures and so on to qualify
00:24:12.17\00:24:14.26
as a candidate,
that's always used to keep
00:24:14.27\00:24:17.94
opposition to a minimum and
00:24:18.33\00:24:19.88
disempower them.
And the same thing is
00:24:19.89\00:24:23.00
often done with
religion and worse
00:24:23.01\00:24:24.92
I know you and
I've both seen this.
00:24:25.64\00:24:26.99
In some of these
countries that require
00:24:27.00\00:24:28.59
these registration
procedures and accept
00:24:28.60\00:24:30.65
certain religions,
they will sometimes use
00:24:30.66\00:24:33.24
the acceptance by
the few to get them to
00:24:33.25\00:24:36.21
ally with the state
to then marginalized the
00:24:36.22\00:24:38.80
small groups. And also there is
00:24:38.81\00:24:40.92
something that we
have to underline,
00:24:40.93\00:24:42.95
if the state control
the religion, they will try
00:24:43.57\00:24:47.03
to control
churches through the people,
00:24:47.04\00:24:49.31
and this is why
you have sometime low
00:24:49.83\00:24:51.58
that you cannot be
the head of a church in
00:24:51.59\00:24:54.18
one country if you are not a
00:24:54.19\00:24:55.63
citizen of that
country. What does it mean?
00:24:55.64\00:24:57.90
If you are
citizen of the country,
00:24:58.23\00:25:00.23
the state have a
longer pressure on you,
00:25:00.48\00:25:02.37
you know they can
say, no you will not
00:25:02.38\00:25:04.00
travel, we can
give privileges and it
00:25:04.01\00:25:06.60
works always like
that you know, we can
00:25:06.61\00:25:08.85
give privileges,
we invite to official
00:25:08.86\00:25:11.66
meeting or we will
not give you a visa to
00:25:11.67\00:25:14.48
travel, a system of patronage.
00:25:14.49\00:25:16.03
Yeah and at the
end you know you are
00:25:16.04\00:25:18.61
under the
control, and of course you
00:25:18.62\00:25:21.06
your freedom,
yeah. So, you know it
00:25:21.07\00:25:23.35
comes back to I
think it was AT Jones wrote
00:25:23.36\00:25:25.27
a book The Two
Kingdoms wasn't it,
00:25:25.28\00:25:27.92
one of the titles of his books.
00:25:27.93\00:25:28.95
But this concept
ha been around as long
00:25:28.96\00:25:31.37
as there has been a discussion
00:25:31.38\00:25:32.41
of religious
freedom. At the end of the day
00:25:32.42\00:25:34.57
we really have to
recognize that they
00:25:34.58\00:25:36.46
are indeed two kingdoms, God's
00:25:36.47\00:25:37.97
kingdom and the kingdom of man,
00:25:37.98\00:25:39.74
and they're not
always at odds, but they have
00:25:39.75\00:25:41.93
very clear lines
of demarcation and the
00:25:41.94\00:25:46.81
trick, it's a divinely
inspired trick is for a
00:25:46.82\00:25:50.88
Christian to live in
the kingdom of man and
00:25:50.89\00:25:53.54
to serve the kingdom of God.
00:25:53.55\00:25:54.73
Yeah, and to
respect as long as it is
00:25:54.74\00:25:57.25
possible to
respect the kingdom of man,
00:25:57.26\00:25:59.74
of course, to be a good citizen,
00:25:59.75\00:26:01.64
but sometime
you have opposition,
00:26:01.65\00:26:03.23
you have contradiction.
What I think which is
00:26:03.24\00:26:06.50
fabulous if you
follow the kingdom of God is
00:26:06.51\00:26:09.56
you know you
follow God who gave us to
00:26:09.98\00:26:13.63
everyone of us
the freedom to choose,
00:26:13.64\00:26:15.80
and why? Because
God loves us, and you
00:26:16.13\00:26:20.23
cannot, you cannot
really love someone if
00:26:20.24\00:26:23.42
you don't give him
or her the freedom to
00:26:23.43\00:26:26.53
love you in
return. And this is why
00:26:26.54\00:26:28.97
I believe in
religious freedom. Religious
00:26:28.98\00:26:30.89
freedom is of course
human rights, it's true,
00:26:30.90\00:26:33.81
it's a very strong
human right but also
00:26:33.82\00:26:36.27
is a part of the
character of God.
00:26:36.28\00:26:38.33
I believe in
religious freedom because
00:26:38.80\00:26:40.51
religious freedom
is a gift from God.
00:26:40.52\00:26:43.22
One of the great
privileges of working
00:26:45.82\00:26:47.70
in the Religious
Liberty area is some
00:26:47.71\00:26:50.16
of the dialogues
and context that we have
00:26:50.17\00:26:54.03
with those to share a different
00:26:54.64\00:26:56.11
faith point of view.
I know there are some
00:26:56.12\00:26:59.03
people within my
church Seventh-day
00:26:59.04\00:27:00.85
Adventist Church to
say we are correct you
00:27:00.86\00:27:02.52
now, why do we
deal with these people,
00:27:02.53\00:27:04.28
we shouldn't
discuss, or we might be
00:27:04.29\00:27:06.34
compromising.
They really miss the
00:27:06.35\00:27:08.52
point all together.
By discussing religious
00:27:08.53\00:27:12.48
issues and our
shared concern for religious
00:27:12.49\00:27:15.60
freedom with these other groups,
00:27:15.61\00:27:17.79
we sharpen our own sense of
00:27:18.16\00:27:19.87
distinctiveness
and we gain allies in
00:27:19.88\00:27:22.98
defending our own
rights to project what
00:27:22.99\00:27:26.32
we believe. You
know in the Bible,
00:27:26.33\00:27:28.56
God on one
occasion said in a very
00:27:28.57\00:27:31.50
persuasive manner,
he said, come let us
00:27:32.32\00:27:34.99
reason together.
And there can be nothing
00:27:35.00\00:27:38.43
wrong in fact
everything right with
00:27:38.44\00:27:40.60
sitting down to
dialogue even with
00:27:40.61\00:27:42.51
those who have
diametrically opposed
00:27:42.52\00:27:44.92
religious
viewpoints. Of course they might
00:27:44.93\00:27:47.31
think that they are
gonna persuade us to
00:27:47.32\00:27:49.40
their viewpoint,
just as we might think so.
00:27:49.41\00:27:51.71
But if both have
open minds and look
00:27:52.31\00:27:54.38
clearly at the
facts truth will be served
00:27:54.39\00:27:56.86
and God will be
honored by our search
00:27:57.42\00:27:59.37
for truth and
our faith integrity.
00:27:59.38\00:28:01.04
That at root is
a big part of what
00:28:01.44\00:28:03.77
we do in Religious Liberty.
00:28:03.78\00:28:05.15
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:06.24\00:28:09.05