Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:00:21.82\00:00:23.16
This is the program
that brings you news,
00:00:23.89\00:00:25.55
information,
analysis and really up to date
00:00:25.56\00:00:29.04
discussion on
religious liberty issues.
00:00:29.05\00:00:31.44
My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine
00:00:31.94\00:00:34.90
and my guest on the
program is Barry Bussey.
00:00:35.55\00:00:38.09
Great to be here. Barry welcome.
00:00:38.62\00:00:39.82
This is not your first
time on the program and
00:00:40.34\00:00:42.21
I hope not your last.
Even after the discussion
00:00:42.22\00:00:45.88
that we got to
have right now. Yeah.
00:00:45.89\00:00:47.98
There are any number
of very contentious issues
00:00:48.65\00:00:51.63
just flowing around
in the United States at
00:00:52.42\00:00:54.76
the moment, but
probably the most contentious
00:00:54.77\00:00:57.04
in recent months has
been a discussion as,
00:00:57.05\00:00:59.93
as to whether or
not a planned Islamic
00:00:59.94\00:01:02.89
Activity Center, not
a mosque although some
00:01:04.74\00:01:06.78
people have called
it a mosque has been
00:01:06.79\00:01:09.02
planned to be built
very close to ground zero.
00:01:09.03\00:01:12.51
Well and of course the
New York city. That's right,
00:01:13.01\00:01:15.07
and that the struggle
here is, is the American
00:01:15.08\00:01:19.61
principle of religious
freedom for communities
00:01:19.62\00:01:24.03
to be able to built
their houses of worship
00:01:24.04\00:01:25.99
wherever they would
like as long as they fit with
00:01:26.00\00:01:27.84
the building codes and so forth.
00:01:27.85\00:01:29.46
That's on the one side
and then on the other side
00:01:30.58\00:01:32.62
is dealing with the
very delicate issue of course
00:01:32.63\00:01:35.23
of a country
that's in a state of war.
00:01:35.63\00:01:37.38
Not against Islam.
Not against Islam, but,
00:01:38.70\00:01:40.80
there is a
religious subtext to that,
00:01:41.37\00:01:43.20
international problem.
There is and also with the
00:01:43.21\00:01:45.25
fact that you've
had, you know the Islamic
00:01:45.26\00:01:48.13
Fundamentalists that,
that brought down ground zero.
00:01:48.14\00:01:50.61
Right. And so, you
know watching this,
00:01:50.62\00:01:53.98
this whole debate
unfold is not only interesting,
00:01:53.99\00:01:58.36
but it has some very
long lasting consequences
00:01:58.37\00:02:01.19
of how it
ultimately turns out. You know
00:02:01.20\00:02:03.30
I'll throw out what I
think is, is the most,
00:02:03.31\00:02:05.37
has the best element
of this whole discussion.
00:02:05.38\00:02:08.86
And I don't think I've
really read it anywhere.
00:02:09.48\00:02:11.42
Since I've been editor
of Liberty Magazine we've
00:02:13.02\00:02:14.81
dealt with some
major pieces of legislation
00:02:14.82\00:02:18.16
and now for years
you've been working on the
00:02:18.17\00:02:21.04
Workplace
Religious Freedom Act. Right.
00:02:21.05\00:02:23.22
That's needed to show up
constitutional guarantees
00:02:23.23\00:02:26.80
in the workplace.
Before that I think the most
00:02:26.81\00:02:29.52
important piece of
legislation that we,
00:02:29.53\00:02:31.79
we were part of
getting through and it was
00:02:31.80\00:02:33.35
much larger than
Seventh Day Adventists,
00:02:33.36\00:02:35.06
but we were very
concerned to address
00:02:35.07\00:02:38.47
the problems of
zoning, innovations,
00:02:38.48\00:02:41.17
of church
construction and so on.
00:02:41.18\00:02:43.26
What is the NIMBY,
the NIMBY Phenomenon,
00:02:43.81\00:02:45.78
not in my backyard
and many communities have
00:02:45.79\00:02:49.44
gotten where they didn't
want a church built there.
00:02:49.45\00:02:50.86
That's more and more
people come to a church
00:02:51.09\00:02:52.94
from somewhere else and
so there is a real problem
00:02:52.95\00:02:54.89
with church construction.
Well zoning and a result
00:02:54.90\00:02:58.66
of that, right, was
the religious land use and
00:02:58.67\00:03:01.77
institutional, institutional
workers act. Right yeah.
00:03:01.78\00:03:06.03
Which lies behind
this present situation.
00:03:06.04\00:03:07.96
And I think it's a
threat if this goes badly that,
00:03:08.61\00:03:11.91
that legislation
itself maybe undergo.
00:03:11.92\00:03:14.02
Well you know I
mean and that's one
00:03:14.90\00:03:16.32
of the things we, we
certainly have to watch,
00:03:16.33\00:03:18.57
but what we, we see
going on here is a country
00:03:18.58\00:03:22.22
that is having to
come to terms with another
00:03:23.12\00:03:25.29
massive immigration
issue with a very different
00:03:25.30\00:03:30.52
religious
understanding as far as the,
00:03:30.53\00:03:32.72
you know the basic
premises and assumptions
00:03:32.73\00:03:35.46
of the Islamic culture
with the American you know
00:03:36.34\00:03:41.40
Christian concept
which has been you know the
00:03:41.41\00:03:43.94
Western civilization
understanding of what
00:03:44.55\00:03:47.21
the life is about and
you know just the basic
00:03:47.22\00:03:50.06
assumptions. And so
we got this struggle
00:03:50.07\00:03:55.06
that's going on with
you know and receiving
00:03:55.07\00:03:59.06
it played out even in
the whole immigrations there.
00:03:59.07\00:04:01.06
That's true and
another program I'd like to go
00:04:01.07\00:04:04.34
into a bit more of
that, because this battle
00:04:04.35\00:04:06.23
has also been very
public lately with the
00:04:06.24\00:04:08.67
Glenn Beck rally. Yes,
yes. There is more of a
00:04:08.68\00:04:12.03
nativist America
first, Christian America first
00:04:12.04\00:04:15.97
reaction to this. To
manifest destiny out there.
00:04:15.98\00:04:19.60
Yes, exactly. all of
these old historic terms
00:04:19.61\00:04:21.62
that I studied in high
school. You know manifest
00:04:21.63\00:04:24.68
destiny used to be
just a quirk of the
00:04:24.69\00:04:26.40
Westwood movement.
Yeah. You know wagons west,
00:04:26.41\00:04:30.19
because it manifests
destiny, you know get rid
00:04:30.20\00:04:32.72
of the Indians and
so. We know that context,
00:04:32.73\00:04:35.31
but now it's being related
to a logic cultural sense.
00:04:35.32\00:04:38.87
How do we fend off
other religious challenges,
00:04:39.36\00:04:43.67
but let let's
keep discussion on,
00:04:44.31\00:04:46.18
on what really is at
play immediately in you.
00:04:46.19\00:04:49.04
What is it Abdul
Faisal Rauf. Rauf yeah.
00:04:51.62\00:04:53.83
An imam as who, a wealthy man.
00:04:54.52\00:04:58.34
Yes, I think he is more of
a, a wealthy philanthropist
00:04:58.35\00:05:02.79
in some ways from an
Islamic cultural background.
00:05:02.80\00:05:05.78
Has had this big grandiose
plan to erect a cultural
00:05:06.37\00:05:09.90
center that will have
like a YMCA facility and so on.
00:05:09.91\00:05:13.57
People can come in
from their community and rub
00:05:13.58\00:05:16.01
shoulders with Muslim practice,
00:05:16.02\00:05:20.89
Islamic practitioners
there. And he's got a dream
00:05:20.90\00:05:24.19
if you like to sort of
bring all face together
00:05:24.98\00:05:28.45
in a Kumbaya moment.
Right. And I don't doubt
00:05:28.46\00:05:31.96
that he has that. You
can sort of deconstruct
00:05:31.97\00:05:34.87
it further on what
bases does he want that.
00:05:34.88\00:05:37.58
It may not be quite as
neutral as people imagine,
00:05:37.59\00:05:40.17
because he's made
some interesting statement
00:05:40.18\00:05:42.33
into the affect that
he certainly would like to
00:05:43.11\00:05:45.52
see elements of
Sharia law and Western legal
00:05:45.53\00:05:48.78
transactions and
so on, so it's not to.
00:05:48.79\00:05:51.17
It doesn't comfort
me overly, but I think
00:05:52.63\00:05:54.37
his general intentions are good.
00:05:54.38\00:05:55.93
It is not a mosque
as we say and perhaps
00:05:55.94\00:05:59.34
he has no particular agenda,
00:05:59.35\00:06:02.36
but there's sa
larger context that you've
00:06:03.04\00:06:04.73
referred to of a
cultural push and pull between
00:06:04.74\00:06:08.02
worldwide
Islamic sensibilities and
00:06:08.03\00:06:12.99
North-American
Christian identity. And
00:06:13.00\00:06:15.34
here to plant this,
this thing near ground zero
00:06:16.14\00:06:19.71
not at ground zero seems to reek
00:06:19.72\00:06:22.41
of symbolism to most people.
00:06:22.42\00:06:23.82
But, but I think you
know a number of people
00:06:24.39\00:06:27.06
like someone like
James Standish for examples
00:06:27.07\00:06:31.14
makes it a very good
point and that is look,
00:06:31.96\00:06:33.87
this is. If you're
a co-worker in the,
00:06:33.88\00:06:36.76
co-worker right and I
mean, he makes a good point,
00:06:36.77\00:06:39.03
he says look this is two
and half blocks away from,
00:06:39.04\00:06:42.36
from you know the
ground zero of 9/11 and
00:06:43.07\00:06:46.66
you've got huge massive
buildings between it so.
00:06:47.29\00:06:52.56
I mean if you go
and you walk the streets
00:06:53.03\00:06:54.42
I haven't done that,
but from what I understand
00:06:54.43\00:06:56.45
with James if
you go and walk it.
00:06:56.46\00:06:58.10
I mean you're like
you know miles away.
00:06:58.82\00:07:01.18
And I'm sure there's
street events and another
00:07:01.31\00:07:02.79
stuff even. And apparently
there are. Yes. So we're
00:07:02.80\00:07:05.86
not really
dealing I tried to dismiss
00:07:05.87\00:07:07.95
that before, I don't
think this is sacred ground
00:07:07.96\00:07:10.10
per say. This is not
the memorial site for,
00:07:10.11\00:07:13.59
you know I've got
a Newsweek, I mean,
00:07:13.60\00:07:15.96
there is the
buildings that are collapsed.
00:07:15.97\00:07:19.04
You could argue
that, that's just as at
00:07:19.69\00:07:22.00
Oklahoma city,
that's the place to,
00:07:22.01\00:07:23.72
to make the park and
little plucks and so on.
00:07:23.73\00:07:26.53
This is not that actual
spot, but it's very close
00:07:26.54\00:07:30.06
to the facility. Right.
And I don't think we need
00:07:30.07\00:07:33.31
to worry about that per
say, but it is functioning
00:07:33.32\00:07:36.14
as a stand in or a
symbolic stand in for that
00:07:36.71\00:07:39.73
whole location.
There's an element of that.
00:07:39.74\00:07:42.67
And, and what troubles
me is just as misguided
00:07:43.39\00:07:47.40
citizens in the United
States are sort of saying,
00:07:47.41\00:07:50.02
they're wanting to
put a mosque there.
00:07:50.03\00:07:52.27
As a victory mosque or whatever.
00:07:52.28\00:07:55.15
Yeah, I do believe that
in the Islamic world they'll
00:07:55.16\00:07:58.10
tend to see it that
way if they didn't before
00:07:58.11\00:08:00.62
now that the
lines have been drawn.
00:08:00.63\00:08:03.05
And, and before the
program you and I were
00:08:03.06\00:08:05.56
talking, it's sort of
a function of history and
00:08:05.57\00:08:09.10
the interplay of
religions that when one culture
00:08:09.11\00:08:11.85
and their religious
icons had decency over another
00:08:11.86\00:08:16.42
they would tend to
erect a church or a religious
00:08:16.43\00:08:19.25
memorial over the ruins
of the conquered country.
00:08:19.26\00:08:23.76
Or like a not conquered
in the sense of a military
00:08:23.77\00:08:27.35
sense, but even in of
a. The cultural conquest.
00:08:27.36\00:08:30.03
Yeah, like you know a
missionary would build
00:08:30.04\00:08:32.45
a church or a school
in there. On the old devil
00:08:33.32\00:08:35.82
burial ground. Or whatever yeah,
00:08:35.83\00:08:37.98
so that the thing is, is
that there was no question
00:08:38.55\00:08:41.61
that as we look at the
civilizations and versus
00:08:41.62\00:08:45.35
the Samuel Huntington, was it,
00:08:45.36\00:08:47.17
that's the class of
civilization. Which,
00:08:47.18\00:08:50.84
anyhow there is a whole.
There's some truth in that.
00:08:52.08\00:08:55.11
There is, there is no
question that you know
00:08:55.12\00:08:58.47
as we look at the
big picture, Christianity
00:08:58.48\00:09:01.66
has as itself, you
know the Gospel Commission
00:09:02.43\00:09:04.61
to go and preach
and to teach and to make
00:09:04.62\00:09:07.00
disciples in all the
world. And so I guess we
00:09:07.01\00:09:10.36
should not be
surprised that you know a major
00:09:10.37\00:09:13.40
world religion as
Islam is that they would
00:09:13.41\00:09:16.16
have that and so,
so that creates that
00:09:16.17\00:09:18.64
dynamic you see.
That, that makes it.
00:09:18.65\00:09:21.77
And my point is that it's real.
00:09:21.78\00:09:23.31
I don't think we're
doing ourselves any favor
00:09:23.92\00:09:25.92
to dodge that. It
exists the Islamic world
00:09:25.93\00:09:29.68
will see some, some
vindication in planting
00:09:29.69\00:09:34.19
even pseudo
religious structure that close
00:09:34.20\00:09:39.19
to a center that
represents what they more
00:09:39.20\00:09:42.58
and more see as a
conflict between the
00:09:42.59\00:09:44.19
Christian West
and the Islamic World.
00:09:44.20\00:09:47.26
But, but what we
need to keep in mind
00:09:47.27\00:09:49.73
and I'll steer it
back. You're objecting on the
00:09:49.74\00:09:51.77
reason that I'm
about to present I think.
00:09:51.78\00:09:53.41
We need to full back
as Mayor Bloomberg and
00:09:54.72\00:09:57.43
President Obama did
on the constitutional and
00:09:57.44\00:10:00.70
historic values that
the United States has,
00:10:00.71\00:10:03.21
had from the very beginning.
00:10:04.28\00:10:05.40
We need not be naive
about what's going on,
00:10:06.89\00:10:08.92
but we need to be in
flexible about our vary
00:10:08.93\00:10:12.28
principles, and
religious freedom means
00:10:12.29\00:10:15.02
nothing unless all the
entities have full freedom,
00:10:15.03\00:10:18.51
to restrict a mosque
there, because we don't let
00:10:19.32\00:10:21.74
or even if it were
a mosque, because we
00:10:21.75\00:10:23.56
don't like that
religion is, is making that in
00:10:23.57\00:10:27.24
some other area,
maybe in middle America
00:10:27.25\00:10:29.98
somewhere we stop a
particular Christian church
00:10:29.99\00:10:32.50
because other
Christian groups don't like
00:10:32.51\00:10:34.39
that church. Yeah. And
going back to Glenn Beck,
00:10:34.40\00:10:37.33
you know he, we could
spend the whole program
00:10:37.34\00:10:39.97
on Glenn Beck
and I think we might.
00:10:39.98\00:10:41.50
But you know he's
being snapped up by
00:10:42.73\00:10:44.08
evangelical, well
I'm just gonna say fellow
00:10:44.09\00:10:47.23
evangelicals. They
don't use the term evangelical
00:10:47.24\00:10:50.09
Christians they say he's
a Mormon not a Christian.
00:10:50.10\00:10:52.25
You know this sort
of prejudice and, and
00:10:53.03\00:10:54.81
picking on one
religion over another happens
00:10:56.46\00:10:58.98
everywhere. And we
need to have a principle
00:10:58.99\00:11:01.67
of neutrality toward
religion or religious
00:11:01.68\00:11:04.64
groups are free
within the law to practice
00:11:05.50\00:11:07.79
and to exist. And I
think Mayor Bloomberg and
00:11:08.53\00:11:11.72
I might quote a bit
from it later if we've
00:11:11.73\00:11:13.36
sometime gave a
wonderful outline of
00:11:13.37\00:11:16.14
America's history and
the right that any group
00:11:16.15\00:11:19.55
would have under
the zoning regulations
00:11:19.56\00:11:21.80
which have been set
straight under RLUIPA
00:11:21.81\00:11:25.61
we call it, Religious
Land Use and Institutional
00:11:25.62\00:11:28.07
Persons Act. That they
have the right, to build.
00:11:28.08\00:11:31.64
Well absolutely, I, I,
I would like to say though
00:11:33.26\00:11:38.65
that as we, as we look
at this debate that we,
00:11:38.66\00:11:42.92
that we recognize or I
guess we've to recognize
00:11:45.08\00:11:49.69
our own insecurities
and in the sense I think
00:11:49.70\00:11:53.63
there is some insecurity
here with respect to the
00:11:53.64\00:11:59.60
versicle response to this whole.
00:12:00.16\00:12:03.13
Well 9/11 has set the
United States on edge.
00:12:03.14\00:12:06.30
The United States
like Australia where I came
00:12:08.62\00:12:09.98
from has a, has long
had a sense that it was
00:12:09.99\00:12:13.65
Canada of course connects to it,
00:12:13.66\00:12:15.71
but it's sort of
an Island of security.
00:12:15.72\00:12:17.30
Oceans separate the
United States from threats
00:12:18.37\00:12:20.35
and so on that
we're set apart and so for
00:12:20.36\00:12:23.57
something to happen
right here and in the
00:12:23.58\00:12:26.24
middle of New York and
the violence in your face,
00:12:26.25\00:12:28.86
it's unsettled
American it's nothing,
00:12:28.87\00:12:30.82
I think in it's entire history.
00:12:30.83\00:12:32.16
Oh no, absolutely
not. Even the burning
00:12:32.17\00:12:34.20
of Washington by the
British didn't do that.
00:12:34.21\00:12:35.76
Not the Canadians. Yeah, yeah.
00:12:37.56\00:12:38.76
So this is a new era of
uncertainty and insecurity.
00:12:40.43\00:12:43.50
Yeah. We'll be
back after the break to
00:12:43.51\00:12:45.95
continue this
discussion of something that
00:12:45.96\00:12:48.34
is very much occupying public
00:12:48.35\00:12:50.94
discussion on religious freedom.
00:12:50.95\00:12:52.51
One-hundred years, a
long time to do anything
00:13:03.22\00:13:06.57
much less publish a magazine,
00:13:07.13\00:13:08.44
but this year Liberty,
the Seventh-Day Adventist
00:13:09.00\00:13:11.97
voice of religious
freedom, celebrates one
00:13:11.98\00:13:14.40
hundred years of
doing what it does best,
00:13:14.41\00:13:16.82
collecting, analyzing,
and reporting the ebb and flow
00:13:16.83\00:13:20.11
of religious
expression around the world.
00:13:20.12\00:13:22.74
Issue after issues.
Liberty has taken on the tough
00:13:23.50\00:13:26.63
assignments, tracking
down threats to religious
00:13:26.64\00:13:28.93
freedom and exposing
the work of the devil
00:13:28.94\00:13:30.79
in every corner of
the globe. Governmental
00:13:31.14\00:13:33.76
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:33.77\00:13:35.72
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom
00:13:36.31\00:13:38.31
issues sequestered
within the church community
00:13:38.32\00:13:40.25
itself have been
clearly and honestly exposed.
00:13:40.26\00:13:43.31
Liberty exists for one purpose,
00:13:44.23\00:13:46.01
to help God's people
maintain that all the
00:13:46.58\00:13:49.06
important
separation of Church and State,
00:13:49.07\00:13:51.13
while recognizing the
dangers inherent in such
00:13:51.76\00:13:54.01
a struggle.
During the past century,
00:13:54.02\00:13:56.46
Liberty has experienced
challenges of its own,
00:13:56.93\00:13:58.96
but it remains on the
job. Thanks to the inspired
00:13:59.54\00:14:02.72
leadership of a long
line of dedicated Adventist
00:14:02.73\00:14:05.06
editors, three of
whom represent almost
00:14:05.07\00:14:07.16
half of the
publications' existence and the
00:14:07.17\00:14:09.59
foresight of a little
woman from New England.
00:14:09.60\00:14:12.01
One hundred years of struggle,
00:14:12.80\00:14:14.38
one hundred years of victories,
00:14:14.97\00:14:16.60
religious freedom
isn't just about political
00:14:17.22\00:14:19.33
machines and
cultural prejudices.
00:14:19.34\00:14:21.44
It's about people,
fighting for the right to
00:14:21.95\00:14:24.88
serve the God they
love as their hearts and
00:14:24.89\00:14:27.82
the Holy Spirit
dictate. Thanks to the prayers
00:14:27.83\00:14:31.23
and generous support
of Seventh-Day Adventists
00:14:31.24\00:14:33.44
everywhere. Liberty
will continue to accomplish
00:14:33.45\00:14:36.34
its work of
providing timely information,
00:14:36.35\00:14:38.37
spirit filled
inspiration, and heaven sent
00:14:38.38\00:14:41.01
encouragement to
all who long to live and
00:14:41.02\00:14:44.16
work in a world
bound together by the God
00:14:44.17\00:14:47.21
ordained bonds of
religious freedom.
00:14:47.22\00:14:50.45
Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:14:59.47\00:15:01.41
Before the break
Barry, I was discussing with
00:15:01.42\00:15:03.75
you this purposed
Islamic community center
00:15:03.76\00:15:07.77
near ground zero
in New York city.
00:15:08.37\00:15:10.15
One of the things
that I find very troubling
00:15:10.68\00:15:13.06
on this whole issue is
like how far do we want
00:15:13.59\00:15:16.19
government to be
getting involved into where
00:15:16.73\00:15:19.62
houses of worship
are gonna to be placed.
00:15:20.73\00:15:22.44
I mean as you've
mentioned with RLUIPA
00:15:23.07\00:15:25.45
and so forth the. I mean we've.
00:15:25.46\00:15:27.08
I better spell it
out for our viewers.
00:15:27.56\00:15:29.43
The Religious Land
Use and Institutionalized
00:15:29.90\00:15:31.81
Persons Act.
Persons Act yes. So,
00:15:31.82\00:15:34.03
by the way and then we
should explain that the
00:15:34.90\00:15:36.33
Institutionalized
Persons Act dealt with things
00:15:36.34\00:15:38.46
like someone in the
hospital refusing to do
00:15:38.47\00:15:41.10
abortions and so on.
That was beyond zoning.
00:15:41.11\00:15:44.26
right. That the
land use is everything
00:15:44.27\00:15:47.90
to do with
zoning and building of
00:15:47.91\00:15:49.48
churches and
religious structures.
00:15:49.49\00:15:51.79
And I mean as
you've mentioned before
00:15:52.19\00:15:53.69
the break, you
know you've individuals
00:15:53.70\00:15:56.56
in many places
throughout the country
00:15:57.62\00:15:59.51
you'll situations
where somebody is gonna
00:15:59.52\00:16:01.80
be a minority. And
so we got to have some
00:16:01.81\00:16:05.10
broad understandings
as to what we will
00:16:05.11\00:16:09.15
consider fair in
being able to allow even the
00:16:09.16\00:16:12.58
minorities to be
able to have their houses
00:16:12.59\00:16:15.03
of worship. This sounds
like the perfect opening
00:16:15.04\00:16:17.12
to share part of
Mayor Bloomberg's speech.
00:16:17.70\00:16:20.05
Alright, in three
paragraphs he says of all
00:16:23.05\00:16:25.10
of our precious
freedoms, he gave this on,
00:16:25.11\00:16:28.52
was the
governor's island anyhow,
00:16:30.46\00:16:31.81
it was on the little
island near not too far
00:16:31.82\00:16:34.30
from the statue of
Liberty and I remember seeing
00:16:34.31\00:16:36.59
it on TV, where you
can see the New York
00:16:36.60\00:16:38.85
in the background.
He says of all of our
00:16:38.86\00:16:41.53
precious freedoms the
most important maybe the
00:16:41.54\00:16:43.39
freedom to worship as we wish.
00:16:43.40\00:16:44.97
And it is a freedom
that even here in a city
00:16:45.74\00:16:48.66
that is rooted in
Dutch tolerance was hard
00:16:48.67\00:16:50.86
one over many
years. And I like him,
00:16:50.87\00:16:53.58
him invoking the
history not always good.
00:16:54.33\00:16:56.05
Because he says in
the mid 1650's the small
00:16:56.06\00:16:58.99
Jewish Community
living in Lower Manhattan.
00:16:59.00\00:17:01.17
Petition Dutch
Governor Peter Stuyvesant
00:17:01.84\00:17:03.64
and we had an
article on the Flushing
00:17:04.52\00:17:07.10
Remonstrance where
people petitioned Peter
00:17:07.11\00:17:10.83
Stuyvesant for
religious freedom,
00:17:10.84\00:17:12.47
but they petitioned
for the right to build
00:17:12.48\00:17:14.58
a synagogue and
they were turned down.
00:17:14.59\00:17:16.45
In 1657, when Stuyvesant
also prohibited Quakers
00:17:17.37\00:17:20.52
from holding
meetings, a group of non-Quakers
00:17:20.53\00:17:23.04
in Queens signed the
Flushing Remonstrance,
00:17:23.05\00:17:25.12
a petition in defense
of the right of Quakers
00:17:27.05\00:17:28.94
and others to freely
practice their religion.
00:17:28.95\00:17:31.20
It was perhaps the first
formal political petition
00:17:31.80\00:17:34.55
for religious freedom
in the American colonies,
00:17:34.56\00:17:36.75
of course before
the American Republic.
00:17:37.26\00:17:39.33
And the organizer
was thrown in jail and
00:17:40.00\00:17:42.04
then banished
from New Amsterdam.
00:17:42.05\00:17:43.28
In 1700's even as
religious freedom took
00:17:43.86\00:17:46.64
hold in America,
Catholics in New York were
00:17:46.65\00:17:49.26
effectively
prohibited from practicing their
00:17:49.27\00:17:51.52
religion and
priests could be arrested.
00:17:51.53\00:17:53.96
Largely as a result,
the first Catholic parish
00:17:54.47\00:17:57.07
in New York City was
not established until
00:17:57.08\00:17:59.36
the 1780's St.
Peter's on Barclay Street,
00:17:59.37\00:18:02.24
which still stands
just one block north of the
00:18:02.80\00:18:04.90
World Trade Center
site and one block south
00:18:04.91\00:18:07.03
of the proposed
mosque and community center.
00:18:07.62\00:18:09.48
I'm sure he mentioned
that to point out that
00:18:09.98\00:18:11.62
there are other
religious institutions
00:18:12.09\00:18:13.62
clustered around
it. Right, right.
00:18:13.63\00:18:15.48
And then he says
what you were referring
00:18:15.98\00:18:17.52
to earlier and I
agree fully, the government
00:18:17.53\00:18:20.20
has no right whatsoever
to deny their right to build.
00:18:20.21\00:18:24.85
Which they got
through the Landmark
00:18:25.39\00:18:26.96
Preservation Commission.
And if it would tried,
00:18:28.18\00:18:30.46
the courts would almost
certainly strike it down
00:18:31.03\00:18:33.22
as a violation of
the U.S. Constitution.
00:18:33.23\00:18:35.13
Whatever you may
think of the proposed mosque
00:18:35.65\00:18:37.77
and community
center, lost in the heat
00:18:37.78\00:18:39.20
of the debate has
been a basic question:
00:18:39.21\00:18:41.81
Should government
attempt to deny private citizens
00:18:42.44\00:18:45.39
the right to build a
house of worship on private
00:18:45.40\00:18:48.21
property based on
their particular religion?
00:18:48.22\00:18:50.93
Of course not, you and
I and would say definitely
00:18:51.39\00:18:55.58
no. It was beyond
government's control.
00:18:56.27\00:18:57.80
And this is the
genius of America at the end
00:18:57.81\00:19:00.86
of the day. I mean
this is why America
00:19:00.87\00:19:03.38
is really great. I mean obvious,
00:19:03.39\00:19:05.51
as De Tocqueville said,
America is great because
00:19:05.52\00:19:07.92
America is good,
right. Yes. And as long as
00:19:07.93\00:19:10.74
Americans remain good,
she'll always be great.
00:19:10.75\00:19:13.38
But now the thing is
part of that good as De
00:19:13.92\00:19:17.49
Tocqueville. Now I
should explain some of our
00:19:17.50\00:19:20.64
viewers may have
heard we mentioned before
00:19:20.65\00:19:22.13
Alexis de Tocqueville
was a French aristocrat who
00:19:22.14\00:19:26.71
came to the U.S. on an
extended visit and then
00:19:26.72\00:19:29.54
wrote extensively
about his experiences and
00:19:29.55\00:19:32.14
he was very
perceptive. Very perceptive.
00:19:32.15\00:19:34.05
And this was of
course in the early days,
00:19:34.06\00:19:36.21
the early 1800s.
Jackson was President.
00:19:36.78\00:19:39.14
Yes, and 'cause
Alexis de Tocqueville,
00:19:39.15\00:19:41.42
his family had
gone through the French
00:19:41.43\00:19:42.94
revolution, so he
knew where the democratic
00:19:42.95\00:19:46.98
impulse could go
wrong, but he looked at the
00:19:46.99\00:19:49.60
United States and saw wonderful,
00:19:49.61\00:19:51.16
flourishing democracy,
religious freedom which
00:19:51.17\00:19:53.64
he said everybody
affirmed was a principle
00:19:53.65\00:19:56.33
over standing. But it
was, and it was also the
00:19:56.34\00:19:59.22
understanding, one
of the things are the
00:19:59.23\00:20:02.10
takeaways that he
brought back to France
00:20:02.11\00:20:04.40
with him was the idea
that in America people
00:20:04.41\00:20:06.78
are religious. They
are you know, they are true
00:20:06.79\00:20:11.27
to their, you know in
particular the majority
00:20:11.28\00:20:14.08
of Christian
faith. And I think this,
00:20:14.09\00:20:16.47
this to me brings
another important part,
00:20:17.08\00:20:19.62
I mean how, the
question is, you know in this
00:20:20.20\00:20:23.22
whole controversy one
might be asking well what
00:20:23.23\00:20:26.70
do we do, what do we
do in this country when
00:20:26.71\00:20:29.21
you have such a large
influx of various religious
00:20:29.78\00:20:33.08
communities and in
particular you know the
00:20:33.09\00:20:35.40
Islamic Community and so on.
00:20:35.41\00:20:36.75
And I just as a
Christian I can't help but
00:20:38.22\00:20:42.16
comeback to the
idea as I was speaking
00:20:42.17\00:20:44.30
to a lady just yesterday
on the plane flying in.
00:20:44.31\00:20:46.60
You know it's important
that we, that we go back
00:20:47.19\00:20:53.20
to our Christian
roots as to who we are,
00:20:53.21\00:20:55.77
what we're about and
understand our history.
00:20:55.78\00:20:59.61
I think if we're going
to be revengeful and attack
00:21:01.69\00:21:06.18
a group of people who
at least from all intents
00:21:06.19\00:21:08.70
and purposes and
we've no other evidence to
00:21:08.71\00:21:10.77
say otherwise. I
mean obviously if,
00:21:10.78\00:21:13.19
if this was a group of
Islamic Fundamentalists
00:21:14.27\00:21:16.43
and you know they
were out to do whatever,
00:21:17.25\00:21:19.42
but there is no
evidence of that in any of the
00:21:19.43\00:21:21.39
discussion or that you
know this is terrorist's
00:21:21.40\00:21:24.45
money that's going
to build it or anything,
00:21:24.46\00:21:26.15
there has been not
a shred of evidence
00:21:26.63\00:21:28.08
anywhere into public
discussion. That's one
00:21:28.09\00:21:30.99
thing, but it strikes
me that what's extremely
00:21:31.70\00:21:34.99
important I think for
Americans and all of us
00:21:35.00\00:21:39.00
is to, is to recognize
that we need to be getting
00:21:39.59\00:21:43.06
back to understanding
about American history.
00:21:43.07\00:21:45.23
What it teaches us and
also about to our faith.
00:21:45.24\00:21:49.12
I eat the Christian
faith and, and I think there,
00:21:49.79\00:21:53.13
there has to be a
recognition that it's,
00:21:53.61\00:21:57.66
it's and also
individually to get back to that
00:21:58.71\00:22:01.34
to understand. Yes,
America was not founded
00:22:01.93\00:22:05.24
on the Christian
faith, but it was founded by
00:22:05.25\00:22:07.75
Christians. By far the majority.
00:22:08.34\00:22:10.39
And protestant
Christians majority and then the
00:22:10.94\00:22:13.83
soft underbelly of the
concept was Catholicism.
00:22:13.84\00:22:17.11
They had some
innate prejudice against
00:22:17.63\00:22:19.59
Catholicism. They had
the enduring sectarian
00:22:19.60\00:22:23.33
prejudices between
different Protestant
00:22:23.95\00:22:25.52
organizations and
again we keep eluding to
00:22:25.53\00:22:29.61
Glenn Beck. But
Glenn Beck brought up the
00:22:29.62\00:22:32.76
concept of the, was
at the Black Regiment?
00:22:32.77\00:22:34.99
Yes, the black
robe magistrate. Anyhow
00:22:35.00\00:22:39.67
the illusion that he
was making is in the early
00:22:40.47\00:22:43.70
days of the revolution
and as the constitution
00:22:43.71\00:22:46.71
was framed. They were
activists ministers who
00:22:46.72\00:22:50.61
had a religious,
political religious agenda.
00:22:50.62\00:22:53.27
And we're agitating
for religious control.
00:22:54.18\00:22:56.37
The reality is they've
lost, and I think it's,
00:22:56.98\00:23:00.48
it's part of the
enduring legacy of America
00:23:03.41\00:23:04.38
that the, the, these
fractions for religious
00:23:04.39\00:23:05.90
power that always
keep popping up were
00:23:05.91\00:23:09.09
put in their place as
the constitution was formed
00:23:10.23\00:23:12.60
and today they need
to be, because it is the
00:23:13.13\00:23:16.27
unfortunately all of
it in my view of religion.
00:23:16.99\00:23:18.97
That religion, every
religion thinks that it's
00:23:19.51\00:23:21.89
got the truth and it
should have the power.
00:23:21.90\00:23:23.64
And devout of
spirituality it becomes more
00:23:25.76\00:23:27.65
and more dangerous,
yes, as Al-Qaeda is,
00:23:27.66\00:23:30.62
because that's what
that is in reality in Islam.
00:23:30.63\00:23:32.44
That is the Islamic
concepts of jihad which
00:23:32.45\00:23:36.05
is a little problematic,
but extracted from the
00:23:36.06\00:23:38.99
religious context, put
into pure political and
00:23:39.00\00:23:42.14
turn violent. You
know, that's problematic and
00:23:42.15\00:23:45.45
but that, that tends
to pop up in all religious
00:23:45.46\00:23:48.25
communities and I
think it's very important
00:23:48.26\00:23:50.81
to see that this Black
Robe Regiment had their
00:23:50.82\00:23:54.23
views back then.
They lost to a broad
00:23:54.24\00:23:57.56
based view of
religious understanding.
00:23:57.57\00:23:59.59
A distance from the government.
00:24:00.86\00:24:02.03
The rights of role
to practice unless they
00:24:02.55\00:24:04.38
crossed the line of
illegality and violence.
00:24:04.39\00:24:06.68
Well I mean, I think
the, obviously the reformation
00:24:07.20\00:24:10.29
itself was so, so
fresh in everybody's mind
00:24:10.30\00:24:14.10
that the founding of America.
00:24:14.11\00:24:15.66
And I think it's that
we've lost that sense.
00:24:16.19\00:24:18.58
We've lost that
in our secular, see.
00:24:19.08\00:24:22.03
Well I think it's,
anyone that watches this program
00:24:22.56\00:24:24.56
know that I'm equally
hung up on the British,
00:24:24.57\00:24:28.43
the English civil
war. That was barely a 100
00:24:29.96\00:24:33.50
years before the
formation of this country.
00:24:33.51\00:24:35.01
That was when
religion and the state would
00:24:35.56\00:24:39.24
combine, absolutely,
there was a religious dictator
00:24:39.25\00:24:41.31
Oliver Cromwell. And it
was a failed experiment.
00:24:41.32\00:24:43.80
It had some great successes.
00:24:44.30\00:24:45.64
But as a structural
experiment it failed.
00:24:46.33\00:24:49.01
And, and the
enlightened leaders of the
00:24:49.79\00:24:53.58
United States saw that,
they were over religious
00:24:54.12\00:24:55.52
in one way or
another. Not always kosher.
00:24:55.53\00:24:58.30
Some of them were
with Diaz and others were
00:25:00.13\00:25:02.07
like Thomas Jefferson
and were free thinkers
00:25:02.62\00:25:04.42
of the first order,
but they had some respect
00:25:04.43\00:25:06.87
for spiritual values,
but they saw that it was
00:25:07.41\00:25:10.26
not to be gained by
giving the force of power,
00:25:10.27\00:25:13.48
power of the
State behind it. Right.
00:25:14.20\00:25:15.88
And we need to
fight that battle again,
00:25:16.37\00:25:17.72
even with the, I've
used the word provocation
00:25:18.15\00:25:20.90
of this building.
Not necessarily about the
00:25:22.00\00:25:24.39
organizers, but it is a
provocative act after 9/11.
00:25:24.95\00:25:28.32
Clearly it's
provocative to society,
00:25:28.77\00:25:30.73
but we shouldn't
be easily provoked.
00:25:31.54\00:25:33.42
We should stay the
cause on our hard won
00:25:34.04\00:25:37.17
principles of religious freedom.
00:25:37.18\00:25:38.62
We should stay the
course and realize that
00:25:39.22\00:25:41.49
the freedom even of a
group that have nurtured
00:25:41.50\00:25:45.02
within their religious
body, in a rather dangerous
00:25:45.03\00:25:49.32
group Al-Qaeda and
that, they came from that
00:25:49.33\00:25:51.60
religious viewpoint. I
said, I mean there's no
00:25:51.61\00:25:53.99
getting around it.
But we shouldn't tie every
00:25:54.00\00:25:56.67
Muslim with that
brush. No, absolutely not.
00:25:56.68\00:25:59.06
And, and we need to stick as
00:25:59.07\00:26:01.30
Mayor Bloomberg said,
with these fabulous principles
00:26:01.31\00:26:04.87
that have enabled
all religions to flourish
00:26:04.88\00:26:08.64
in the United
States. You know Lincoln,
00:26:08.65\00:26:10.94
those are very important
points. It strikes me that,
00:26:10.95\00:26:14.18
and how we treat
minorities in our midst tells
00:26:14.19\00:26:17.60
a lot about who we are.
It's extremely important
00:26:18.10\00:26:22.47
as we're going
through this American history
00:26:23.42\00:26:25.08
that we're experiencing
right now in real time
00:26:25.09\00:26:27.32
on this issue of
the mosque in New York.
00:26:27.33\00:26:29.01
It's important for
us to understand the
00:26:30.07\00:26:32.25
American history.
The lessons we've learned
00:26:32.26\00:26:34.50
from the history,
because if we don't understand
00:26:35.05\00:26:37.05
those lessons we're
doomed to repeat those errors.
00:26:37.06\00:26:40.94
A few nights ago,
I spend sometime with
00:26:43.85\00:26:46.02
my family watching the
most interesting documentary
00:26:46.03\00:26:48.83
of the city of Jerusalem.
I doubt any city in the
00:26:49.51\00:26:53.65
world has such a
history going back of course
00:26:53.66\00:26:56.72
to the pre-Christian
era, but to Christians,
00:26:57.77\00:27:00.55
Muslims and Jews
it's history and the
00:27:01.07\00:27:04.41
Christian Era is
the most interesting.
00:27:04.42\00:27:06.34
What impressed me was
that as conquest followed
00:27:07.38\00:27:10.54
conquest, as occupier
came and another occupier
00:27:10.55\00:27:13.39
then ejected them and
spent their time in city.
00:27:14.33\00:27:16.71
Mosques and temples
and churches succeeded
00:27:17.91\00:27:21.09
one another often over
the top of other Oedipus.
00:27:21.10\00:27:25.27
Holy ground, many
religions think Jerusalem
00:27:26.95\00:27:30.45
is Holy, but ultimately
as Jesus said there is
00:27:30.46\00:27:33.67
none holy but God. We
need to be careful when
00:27:33.68\00:27:36.66
we think about ground
zero and what happened
00:27:36.67\00:27:38.97
there and what might
be happening with building
00:27:38.98\00:27:41.62
of a community
center or mosque or whatever
00:27:42.62\00:27:44.11
you want to call it.
This is not Holy ground and
00:27:44.12\00:27:47.57
we do an unholy work if
we disallow religious self
00:27:47.58\00:27:51.49
determination by well
meaning religious groups.
00:27:51.50\00:27:54.56
We need to have an open society,
00:27:55.30\00:27:56.84
a society dedicated
to religious freedom and
00:27:56.85\00:27:59.95
respect for all
people. For Liberty
00:27:59.96\00:28:04.50
Insider this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:04.51\00:28:07.18