Welcome to The Liberty Insider.
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This is the
program that brings you up
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to date news,
views and discussion on
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religious liberty
issues. My name is
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Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest on the
program is Melissa Reid,
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Associate Editor
for Liberty Magazine.
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Good to be with
you all here today.
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Welcome on the program.
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Thank you. I'm gonna
break a rule that I've tried
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to maintain out of embarrassment
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of not using reading
glasses, but I want to
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share with our
viewers some thoughts on an
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incredible crisis that
just seems to be never ending.
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In the Roman Catholic
Church, you want to guess
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what that crisis is?
Well, the one that I've been
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hearing or the
reason that I've heard the
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Catholic Church
mentioned in the news lately
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unfortunately has
again the issue of pedophilia
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with a priest. Yeah,
it's you know we need
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to be careful, I
don't know, I was thinking
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the analogy of
people in glass houses don't
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throw stones, but I
don't particularly think other
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Churches have
quite the same problem,
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they may have other problems.
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Yeah. But we shouldn't
just pile on for the sake
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of piling on, this is
a great tragedy in the
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Roman Catholic
Church and it's turned out
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that it's global, not
just North America as it
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first brought
up, right, about ten
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or so years ago, right,
publicly. Unfortunately so,
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yeah, now in the
Eastern Europe and Ireland
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and just all over, all
over yeah, just all over yeah,
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and you've been
reading some of the same
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magazines that I
have, same reports,
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and all of us who
watch the evening news have
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heard some of the
very, I'd put the word lame
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excuses coming out of Rome.
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At first they
blamed the media, right,
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and one Vatican
official even suggested it was
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Jewish control of
media that was picking a lot,
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right, right, and
that's not a very good
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invitation since.
Well almost and even first
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it was almost a
denial, just referring to it as
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petty gossip. No,
anyone that's been in an
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organization knows
that any organization
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can reflexly sort
of close ranks and keep
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something at a
distance and that we need to
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understand but not
excuse, it could happen
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any where. Sure,
but along the way in,
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in offending off
these increasing revelations
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we've seen some very
self revealing aspects
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of Rome and the
whole Papal system that
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I think is not good
and it doesn't bear well
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for religious freedom
or at least true religious
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transparency,
right, they've denied that
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it has anything to
do with the requirement
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the priest be a
celibate, which is not biblical.
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Right. And they are
allowed to believe something
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absolutely unbiblical
on a religious freedom
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construct, it's
not necessary to have a
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correct doctrine as
long as you don't cross
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anybody else as
long as you're not acting
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in a manner
against the public good
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or endangering the
public, you know, right,
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believe in practicing
it. Right. But, but Rome
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is an interesting case
and historically in the
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middle ages you
know the exhibit A,
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this was a church
that did compel certain
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belief systems, it
did insight countries
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to go to war against
its theological enemies,
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it did quite
willingly as an auto de fé,
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an act of faith, burn
people at the stake and,
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and, and put
them through torture
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and some pretty
amazing experiences, right,
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so in that regard I
think this is fair game
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for a discussion
of religious freedom.
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Absolutely, it's
an issue you know,
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child abuse is
absolutely something that
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cannot swept
under the rug. Right.
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I want to share
something this is where
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I'm gonna read a
little bit for the benefit
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of our viewers, from
an article that I actually
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read on the plane
coming to this filming,
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from the New
Republic, which every magazine
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has a bias, if you're
inclined to look for it,
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but generally speaking
these articles are well
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considered and
this one is written by
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Garry Wills, who has
general credibility in the
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public media. He
wrote about ten years ago
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a book called sin,
Papal Sin, he was one of the
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early people to write on
the pedophilia or scandal
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in the Catholic
Church, right, he happens
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to be a Roman
Catholic. Right, yeah,
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so it's a distinct
perspective. Right, and
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he is not making
excuses for his church
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but at the end of the
day, he is not deserting
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his Church. He maintains
that it's what it stands
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for and attracts him
and that he is being loyal,
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right, but he is
an educated person
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who knows his history,
knows his present reality
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and, and in that context
he lays it all out, sure.
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And I want to share a
few of the things that
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he said, where can I
pick it up, maybe the
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best thing, a lot
of people have heard
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this statement, but
Lord Acton, a British peer,
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about a 100, well I
should get my date right.
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In the 1880, in 1887
actually the time of what
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we were discussing
in another program,
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when Liberty Magazine
was, its formative time,
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right, another title,
yes, there was debate over
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compulsion to a Sunday
law in the United States,
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yes, yes. Well at
that same time period,
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Lord Acton in
England made a statement,
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he says power tends to
corrupt and absolute power
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corrupts absolutely. Yes,
a lot of people know that.
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I am familiar
with that phrase yes.
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But then he goes on
further one sentence
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later he says there
is no worse heresy then
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that the office
sanctifies the holder of it.
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And that set the route
of what we're dealing with,
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with I think this well,
it's a sexual aberration
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that's problematic,
but I think it's being
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empowered by the
sins, the theology that says
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the priest is the
stand in for God, right
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and that the whole
priestly cast and in particular
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the Pope is
above human law, right,
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this is a dictum of
Rome. Right, right, right.
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And so Garry Wills
is dealing with this
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and then he says
something that I think
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everybody should
remind themselves of,
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to have a Catholic
historian say this,
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I think it's
accurate and heart felt,
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he says this, I want
to read this paragraph,
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The Pope is a freak of
history, specifically of
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medieval history.
His office does not date
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from the early history
of the Christian community.
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Peter was not a Pope
or a bishop or a priest,
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offices that did not
exist in his lifetime.
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He means Catholic
priests because they were
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Jewish priests.
There are no priests
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in the New Testament.
Peter was not the leader
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of the Church in
either Jerusalem or Rome,
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communities lead,
respectively by James,
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Jesus' brother,
and Clement. Paul,
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at the famous clash in
Antioch, that he did not
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think Peter a sound interpreter
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of Jesus message. And
that's a very interesting
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historical reality that
most people forget, right,
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and Rome will not have
you even think about that,
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but then he goes
further and speaks about
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the current Pope, a
fine man as far as I can see.
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A theologian
certainly and a thinker,
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but he said, he
counters Cardinal Ratzinger,
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now Pope Benedict on
something that he said
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a few months ago and
I'll read again, says
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when the current Pope
was Cardinal Ratzinger,
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he was asked how so
many Catholics could
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disregard official
teachings of the hierarchy.
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He answered that doctrine
is not set by majority vote.
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But that is precisely
how creeds and doctrines
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were formulated.
Right, right. At the great
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Eastern councils, like
that of Nicaea, hundreds
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of bishops from
around the world voted on the
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deepest mysteries of
the faith, the Trinity,
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the Incarnation,
the Resurrection.
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And there was no Pope
at any of those councils.
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But that's an interesting
reality that I'd like our
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viewers to know,
right, right, that while truth
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can't be made valid
just because the majority
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want it, that it
within the body of believers,
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and this is talking
about the Christian body
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at that time who
really haven't truly defined
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themselves as Roman
Catholic, that was another
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morphing of history.
But they had the sense that
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in the right attitude
that the majority would
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formulate the view. It
wasn't a minority opinion,
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right. You know that's
interesting that reminds
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me I was the reading
that I was doing on the plane
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over was the Pew
Forum study on religion
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in the United
States and I was struck,
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one of the numbers that I
was struck by was they had
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percentage of a population
that read their Bible daily
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and for evangelical
Protestant, the group
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was like 60% of
people read their Bible daily
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or frequently, which I
was pleased to see of course
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you'd love to see
the number even higher
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than that, but for
the Catholics interviewed
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it was 21% much
lower than any of the other
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Christian entities and
I thought I wonder if that
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you know if that
seems to correlate with what
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you're saying here
as far as they look
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to an individual, a
human and the teachings
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of a particular
church to a higher degree
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than the authority
of the Bible itself.
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Well, that's true and
I was looking for Wills
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makes a comment
about that, it's a fact
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of history that Roman
Catholic Church for reasons
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of its own has historically
restricted not so much
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now but has
restricted access to the Bible,
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that was not the
emphasis, right, it was emphasis
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on authority. It
couldn't be read in the original
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Hebrew or Greek,
you know had to be read
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in Latin which no
one could read during
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that time period and
it's no misreading of the
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American history
and the framing of the
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constitution to know
that all of those men
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were opposed to such
autocratic views of state
00:10:14.56\00:10:18.41
craft or religion. The
idea that a Central Authority
00:10:18.44\00:10:21.95
can mandate to you, no
way would they accept that.
00:10:21.98\00:10:25.22
Yeah, and so as
Garry Wills, points out
00:10:25.25\00:10:28.13
we're really dealing
with a carryover from
00:10:28.16\00:10:31.68
another time, not
because of its faith but
00:10:31.71\00:10:35.26
because of its
structure that it pulled along
00:10:35.29\00:10:37.57
the way. And again
I want to read what
00:10:37.60\00:10:42.40
he was saying; he
says he says and there
00:10:42.43\00:10:46.18
and there was no Pope
at any of those councils.
00:10:46.21\00:10:47.61
The democracy that
would be denounced by
00:10:47.64\00:10:50.14
Pius IX had been
practiced in the early Church,
00:10:50.17\00:10:52.75
people forget that a
pope condemned democracy
00:10:52.78\00:10:55.82
and then he says,
in the Middle Ages,
00:10:55.85\00:10:57.95
it was the worldly
assumption that all
00:10:57.98\00:11:00.32
authority had to be
feudal or monarchical
00:11:00.35\00:11:02.74
in character. Right. So
the Pope became a monarch,
00:11:02.77\00:11:05.25
right. He ruled territories.
He had armies, prisons,
00:11:05.28\00:11:08.78
spies. These things were
finally stripped from him,
00:11:08.81\00:11:11.58
but not until the
nineteenth century,
00:11:11.61\00:11:13.60
and I know Seventh-Day
Adventists see a prophetic
00:11:13.97\00:11:16.53
input in 1798 when the
Pope was taken prisoner
00:11:16.56\00:11:21.17
by Napoleon's Armies,
but here he is speaking
00:11:21.20\00:11:24.55
straight history, he
was stripped of those powers
00:11:24.58\00:11:27.46
and despite the
frantic efforts he says of
00:11:27.49\00:11:30.18
Pius IX to
retain them. Even now,
00:11:30.21\00:11:32.98
the vestigial Papal
state is being invoked to show
00:11:33.01\00:11:36.68
that the Pope, as ruler
of a sovereign government,
00:11:36.71\00:11:39.25
cannot be called to
account for priestly sins.
00:11:39.28\00:11:41.55
And this is really what
got me going, I've written
00:11:41.59\00:11:44.87
in Liberty Magazine
many times the reality
00:11:44.90\00:11:48.61
that I eluted too
early, you can believe
00:11:48.64\00:11:50.10
whatever you want.
Religious liberty can't
00:11:50.13\00:11:51.84
restrict your
belief. But we have sometimes
00:11:51.87\00:11:56.76
lightened, that I think
at the moment an emerging
00:11:56.79\00:11:59.25
threat to religious
liberty by any church entity
00:11:59.28\00:12:02.59
that masquerades as a
state, because we want
00:12:02.62\00:12:04.72
separation of Church
and state and to have an
00:12:04.75\00:12:07.13
actual state that
happens to be a Church power,
00:12:07.16\00:12:11.69
its mix and match
and, and nothing good can
00:12:12.27\00:12:14.99
come of that, nothing
good can come of that.
00:12:15.02\00:12:16.88
Yeah. And he refers
again to Pius IX condemned
00:12:16.91\00:12:21.06
democracy as an evil
and illegitimate form
00:12:21.09\00:12:23.71
of government. I mean
that's wrong for any Church
00:12:23.74\00:12:27.93
to say such a thing,
even if it were not God's
00:12:27.96\00:12:31.17
system, it's
absolute meddling in the forms
00:12:31.20\00:12:34.40
of a Civil government
by a power calling it's,
00:12:34.43\00:12:37.07
a religious power
calling yourself, right,
00:12:37.10\00:12:40.15
a civil power. Well you
know it's the people that
00:12:40.18\00:12:43.31
actually call for
democracy in most democratic
00:12:43.34\00:12:46.33
nations, so perhaps maybe
the Catholic constituency,
00:12:46.36\00:12:50.75
should be looking
in that same direction.
00:12:50.78\00:12:52.83
That's what we're
thinking about. We'll be back
00:12:53.50\00:12:55.55
after the break to
discuss a little bit more
00:12:55.58\00:12:57.76
not particularly
the moral scandal in the
00:12:57.79\00:13:00.55
Roman Catholic
Church but structurally
00:13:00.58\00:13:02.43
what is really going on.
00:13:02.46\00:13:03.76
100 years, a long
time to do anything much
00:13:12.62\00:13:17.03
less publish a magazine,
but this year, Liberty,
00:13:17.06\00:13:20.25
the Seventh-Day Adventist
voice of religious freedom
00:13:20.28\00:13:23.01
celebrates 100 years of
doing what it does best,
00:13:23.04\00:13:26.68
collecting, analyzing and
reporting the ebb and flow
00:13:26.71\00:13:30.60
of religious
expression around the world.
00:13:30.63\00:13:32.63
Issue after issue,
Liberty has taken on the tough
00:13:32.94\00:13:36.42
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00:13:36.45\00:13:38.92
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00:13:38.95\00:13:40.88
in every corner of
the globe, governmental
00:13:40.91\00:13:43.61
interference,
personal attacks, corporate
00:13:43.64\00:13:46.27
assaults, even religious
freedom issues to question
00:13:46.30\00:13:49.10
within the Church
community itself have been
00:13:49.13\00:13:51.22
clearly and honestly
exposed. Liberty exists
00:13:51.25\00:13:54.75
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all important
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three of whom
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little woman from New England.
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100 years of struggle,
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00:14:22.19\00:14:26.33
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00:14:26.46\00:14:29.20
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00:14:32.28\00:14:35.56
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00:14:48.27\00:14:50.89
encouragement to
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00:14:53.89\00:14:56.74
God ordained bonds
of religious freedom.
00:14:56.77\00:15:00.34
Welcome back to the
program before the break
00:15:09.20\00:15:11.25
we were talking a
little about the scandal,
00:15:11.59\00:15:15.50
I was talking with
Melissa Reid, associate editor
00:15:15.53\00:15:18.08
of Liberty Magazine
and I am the editor,
00:15:18.11\00:15:19.91
Lincoln Steed.
Let's not forget that,
00:15:19.94\00:15:22.39
to re-introduce
myself, we were talking about
00:15:22.42\00:15:25.24
the larger ramifications
behind the pedophile
00:15:26.70\00:15:30.13
scandal in the
Roman Catholic Church
00:15:30.16\00:15:31.62
which is regrettable,
I'm sure they're embarrassed
00:15:31.65\00:15:33.51
by it, right,
nobody is suggesting that
00:15:33.54\00:15:35.45
structurally the
Church ever intended this,
00:15:35.48\00:15:38.19
right, although there is
good evidence historically
00:15:38.22\00:15:40.93
up now. that it is not
just something that popped
00:15:40.96\00:15:42.42
up now. But along the
way in discussing this
00:15:42.45\00:15:47.42
problem with Garry
Wills, who is well known as an
00:15:47.45\00:15:52.11
author, he had
written a book on this about
00:15:52.14\00:15:53.52
10 years ago and I've
seen him on TV as a pundit
00:15:53.55\00:15:56.30
and a Roman Catholic
himself along the way
00:15:56.56\00:15:59.60
Garry Wills, really
discusses the larger issue.
00:15:59.69\00:16:02.07
What is the Church
that he belongs to,
00:16:02.10\00:16:03.63
historically what is it
and I know you've grown up
00:16:03.66\00:16:07.82
as the Seventh-Day
Adventist and learned
00:16:07.85\00:16:09.49
your church history.
Roman Catholic Churches
00:16:09.52\00:16:12.59
had some interesting
ups and some huge downs.
00:16:12.62\00:16:15.61
Right, it's very
puzzling to me as a Protestant
00:16:15.64\00:16:19.85
Christian or I guess
it's very foreign to me,
00:16:19.88\00:16:22.95
the, you know the
pomp and circumstance
00:16:24.51\00:16:27.21
of the religion, you
know the infallibility of the
00:16:27.24\00:16:30.21
Pope, you know the
confession of your sins
00:16:30.24\00:16:33.32
to another earthly
human work, the indulgences
00:16:33.56\00:16:37.04
of the middle ages
and things like that.
00:16:37.07\00:16:38.44
The Bible says call no
man Father. Yeah, so it's,
00:16:38.47\00:16:41.15
it's very foreign to
me as Protestant Christian
00:16:41.18\00:16:44.87
but it certainly
is understandable then
00:16:45.55\00:16:49.60
how this sort of
dynamic can set up,
00:16:49.63\00:16:53.13
unfortunately the
secrecy and the you know
00:16:53.16\00:16:58.77
the ability to keep
this sort of behavior under
00:16:58.80\00:17:04.38
wraps for so long
unfortunately and allowed
00:17:04.41\00:17:07.90
it to continue, you know
by rather than disciplining
00:17:07.93\00:17:11.06
you know a man of
God moving him on to a
00:17:11.84\00:17:13.79
different district.
Now something that I think
00:17:13.82\00:17:16.51
is bringing out in this
discussion and Garry Wills
00:17:16.54\00:17:20.14
does touch on it,
is that the scandal was
00:17:20.17\00:17:24.12
unexpected, but it comes
as a time and it empowers
00:17:24.15\00:17:28.92
affections within the
Roman Catholic church,
00:17:28.95\00:17:31.47
which we are
discussing again Vatican II,
00:17:31.50\00:17:34.76
now Vatican II wasn't
magic but it was a clear
00:17:35.33\00:17:39.30
turning point or
a pivot point in the
00:17:39.33\00:17:41.90
Roman Catholic Church, it
was the time of Pope John,
00:17:41.93\00:17:44.83
let's forget the
number, the Pope John
00:17:46.70\00:17:48.39
in my lifetime, look at
all grandfatherly Pope John,
00:17:48.42\00:17:51.96
he convened Vatican
II or at least concluded
00:17:51.99\00:17:55.31
it where, where
there was really a breathe
00:17:55.34\00:17:57.67
of rationality and
modernity that came
00:17:57.70\00:18:01.17
into the Catholic
Church that's where they did
00:18:01.20\00:18:03.04
away with the
Tridentine or Latin Mass
00:18:03.07\00:18:05.21
and had more
understandable liturgy
00:18:05.36\00:18:09.06
for the common person,
they recanted such a work,
00:18:09.09\00:18:14.76
what is appropriate
on their view that I said
00:18:14.79\00:18:18.34
before the
break of democracy was
00:18:18.37\00:18:20.23
a pernicious evil.
They accepted democracy,
00:18:20.26\00:18:22.55
they accepted
religious freedom and I have to
00:18:22.58\00:18:24.89
acknowledge that today
the Roman Catholic Church
00:18:24.92\00:18:27.44
which really is on
the ropes like most of the
00:18:27.99\00:18:30.56
Christian groups in
other Non-Christian countries
00:18:30.59\00:18:32.77
and it suffers
persecution, but the
00:18:32.80\00:18:34.53
Roman Catholic Church
says all the right things
00:18:34.56\00:18:36.69
about religious freedom
and I think believes them
00:18:36.72\00:18:41.90
by enlarge, I don't
think this is just a fair
00:18:41.93\00:18:44.36
front to deceive
at this moment, right,
00:18:44.83\00:18:47.08
and lot of this is
derived from Vatican II
00:18:47.11\00:18:49.83
which was really a
breath of fresh air which
00:18:49.86\00:18:51.71
encouraged Roman
Catholics to think for
00:18:51.74\00:18:53.91
themselves as they
hadn't before, to read the Bible
00:18:53.94\00:18:56.71
which is always a
good thing. It wasn't quite
00:18:56.74\00:18:59.16
the reformation, but
it was a coming to terms
00:18:59.19\00:19:02.46
with the Spirit of
the times, right, but
00:19:02.49\00:19:05.04
now we are living
through a rethinking by,
00:19:05.07\00:19:08.88
from Rome on down,
from the Pope on down,
00:19:08.91\00:19:11.60
they're
rethinking those changes.
00:19:11.63\00:19:13.86
Well you know it's
interesting talking or
00:19:13.89\00:19:17.31
mentioning again how
different my Protestant
00:19:17.34\00:19:19.60
Christian upbringing
was from the Catholic way
00:19:19.63\00:19:24.72
of doing things and one
of the things that's been
00:19:24.75\00:19:26.92
in discussion with this
most recent round of child
00:19:26.95\00:19:30.20
abuse cases, here's
some people have been calling
00:19:30.23\00:19:33.35
for the
resignation of the Pope, yeah,
00:19:33.38\00:19:36.21
it's just not
possible within that structure,
00:19:36.24\00:19:38.66
there is not
any sort of you know
00:19:38.69\00:19:40.88
because he is
this infallible being.
00:19:40.91\00:19:43.27
Well resignation is
possible impeachment is not,
00:19:43.30\00:19:46.40
okay, or not much
precedent. Yes, but it
00:19:46.43\00:19:49.35
would be, it would
be acknowledging that
00:19:49.38\00:19:52.42
he has made an
error, that this, this.
00:19:52.45\00:19:54.88
And I should be
straight forward too, that I,
00:19:54.91\00:19:59.05
my understanding of
Vatican II is they did
00:19:59.08\00:20:00.92
revisit papal infallibility,
which was a relatively
00:20:00.95\00:20:04.06
recent doctrine and
very few Catholics today
00:20:04.09\00:20:08.39
see the Pope as an
infallible human being,
00:20:08.90\00:20:12.13
what they hope to which
is relatively clear Biblical
00:20:12.30\00:20:17.61
point is that when he
speaks on behalf of the
00:20:17.64\00:20:20.19
considered councils of
the Church you know, right,
00:20:20.22\00:20:22.46
in a form of pronouncement that,
00:20:22.49\00:20:23.46
okay, that this reflects
if it's done prayerfully
00:20:23.47\00:20:26.07
and in the right attitude,
this reflects the will of
00:20:26.10\00:20:31.51
God through his
Church. Okay. But yes,
00:20:31.54\00:20:34.74
infallibility
lingers, the echoes of evidence
00:20:34.77\00:20:38.38
and it's not a good
idea again under religious
00:20:38.41\00:20:41.46
freedom they're
allowed to have such a view,
00:20:41.49\00:20:43.10
but pronouncements
of that nature have led
00:20:43.13\00:20:46.04
some great abuses
within the religious community
00:20:46.07\00:20:48.63
and in that regard it's a
religious liberty concern.
00:20:48.66\00:20:51.03
Right. But I think
it's interesting that
00:20:51.06\00:20:53.15
they are rethinking
Vatican II and again
00:20:53.18\00:20:56.59
I want to read from,
I'll try to keep my face up
00:20:56.62\00:21:00.41
so I'd look away
from our viewers, but here
00:21:00.44\00:21:03.65
he says here, the
second or maybe I'll begin this
00:21:03.68\00:21:06.64
paragraph. The reaction
of the hierarchy has been
00:21:06.67\00:21:08.89
to dig itself even
deeper into the past,
00:21:08.92\00:21:11.51
to blame the
Church's problems or troubles
00:21:11.54\00:21:14.60
on such old evils as
secularism, relativism,
00:21:14.63\00:21:18.19
positivism, pluralism,
these are all words of the
00:21:18.22\00:21:22.06
present Pope and a
permissive culture.
00:21:22.09\00:21:24.28
The second Vatican
Council is blamed as well,
00:21:24.31\00:21:27.10
and the Popes have
tried to blunt or to reverse
00:21:27.13\00:21:29.68
its changes. Pope
Benedict wants to go
00:21:29.71\00:21:32.06
back to the Latin
Mass. He has cut back
00:21:32.09\00:21:34.07
ecumenical initiatives,
denying again the validity
00:21:34.10\00:21:37.10
of Anglican orders,
forbidding celebration
00:21:37.13\00:21:39.31
of mass with Protestants,
declaring in Dominus Iesus,
00:21:39.34\00:21:42.49
that all other
churches are gravely deficient.
00:21:42.59\00:21:45.55
This is not a good
move for good relationships
00:21:46.50\00:21:49.87
between the Churches
and Vatican II I think
00:21:49.90\00:21:51.90
gave a sort of spring
time to church relations,
00:21:52.34\00:21:56.28
right, this program is
not recommending ecumenism,
00:21:56.31\00:21:59.42
because at its worst
ecumenism with sort of
00:21:59.45\00:22:01.71
syncretism, to bring
everybody together to a
00:22:01.74\00:22:04.01
common denominator.
But as for as collegial
00:22:04.04\00:22:06.99
relations between
fait groups why not?
00:22:08.93\00:22:12.33
We should have open
dialogue, we should be
00:22:12.45\00:22:16.00
able to relate in the
Spirit of, if not Christ
00:22:16.03\00:22:19.34
because we're not all
Christians, right, but
00:22:19.37\00:22:21.46
certainly between
Protestants and Catholics
00:22:21.49\00:22:23.38
it should be in a
manner of charity and cooperate
00:22:23.41\00:22:27.94
on issues where we're
tilting against the devil
00:22:27.97\00:22:31.00
and the world if
you like, absolutely.
00:22:31.03\00:22:32.90
And Garry Wills,
doesn't write something that
00:22:33.28\00:22:35.52
we need to think
long and hard about,
00:22:35.55\00:22:36.94
he says here,
defending why he is still a
00:22:42.25\00:22:44.82
Roman Catholic, he says,
when the disciples of Jesus
00:22:44.85\00:22:47.80
came back from their
first mission away from him,
00:22:47.83\00:22:50.08
the Apostle John
reported, "Master, we saw
00:22:50.37\00:22:53.76
a man driving
out evil in our name,
00:22:53.79\00:22:56.05
and he was not one of
us, we tried to stop him."
00:22:56.08\00:22:58.22
Jesus asked why they did that:
00:22:58.62\00:23:00.09
"No one who does
the work of divine power
00:23:00.26\00:23:02.94
in my name will be
able the next movement
00:23:02.98\00:23:04.80
to speak evil of me"
says Jesus, and I don't
00:23:04.83\00:23:10.06
necessarily believe
the Church of Rome has the
00:23:10.54\00:23:14.52
truth as I see it,
but as it invokes the name
00:23:14.55\00:23:18.08
of Jesus, I have
to respect the things,
00:23:18.11\00:23:21.24
the good things that
he is doing in his name,
00:23:21.27\00:23:23.22
it's not and cannot be
an absolutely evil prayer.
00:23:23.40\00:23:27.24
Right. Martin Luther
came from, absolutely,
00:23:27.27\00:23:29.81
from Rome and we
need to believe, recognize
00:23:29.84\00:23:32.20
as a fellowship of
true believers and people
00:23:32.23\00:23:35.00
of good faith, all
around the world summoned
00:23:35.03\00:23:36.80
to the Catholic
Church, even some in the
00:23:36.83\00:23:39.11
Seventh-Day
Adventist Church, perhaps some
00:23:39.14\00:23:41.70
who are born
Buddhists or whatever,
00:23:41.73\00:23:43.70
I don't believe,
yes, Buddhism is just an
00:23:43.73\00:23:46.72
alternate way of
seeing God, but God has his
00:23:46.75\00:23:49.20
people that have the
right attitude in all
00:23:49.23\00:23:51.48
environments, yeah,
and anybody that's doing a
00:23:51.51\00:23:54.45
good thing and that
calls upon the name of Jesus
00:23:54.48\00:23:57.53
I have to respect them,
yeah, and I think this is
00:23:57.56\00:24:00.45
a important part of
religious liberty, isn't it?
00:24:00.48\00:24:02.49
Absolutely, to think
charitably about a Papal,
00:24:02.52\00:24:05.17
absolutely and it is
like you said it's that
00:24:05.20\00:24:07.53
individual conscience
that we're looking at,
00:24:07.56\00:24:09.80
you know we can't
brand an individual by
00:24:09.83\00:24:14.37
a particular faith group
or the actions of leaders
00:24:14.40\00:24:17.83
within that faith
group, you know we are all
00:24:17.86\00:24:20.59
sinners, we all fall
short in the glory of God.
00:24:20.62\00:24:22.78
But it's those
individuals with their sincerely
00:24:23.24\00:24:25.44
held beliefs that
are trying to do the will
00:24:25.47\00:24:27.65
of Christ and they're
everywhere, they're in,
00:24:27.68\00:24:30.83
they're in all walks
of life, you know all
00:24:30.86\00:24:32.33
various religious
groups, faith groups.
00:24:32.36\00:24:35.42
Now we have to hope
the Roman Catholic Church
00:24:35.45\00:24:37.89
can, for the sake
of society at large,
00:24:37.92\00:24:40.20
not just for their
own organization can deal
00:24:40.23\00:24:42.06
with this incredible
moral elaboration that's still
00:24:42.09\00:24:45.77
bubbling up, absolutely,
it's not good for them
00:24:46.25\00:24:48.34
to deal with it by
saying well you know its,
00:24:48.37\00:24:51.23
its homosexuality,
because the homosexual,
00:24:51.26\00:24:54.80
the gay will
probably get all fronted,
00:24:54.83\00:24:57.21
because technically
it's a different thing,
00:24:57.24\00:24:59.51
pedophilia and
homosexuality, even
00:25:00.06\00:25:02.43
though from a
Biblical morality we can feel
00:25:02.46\00:25:04.46
that these are both
out of God's way of acting.
00:25:04.49\00:25:08.04
But they need to deal
within a way that doesn't
00:25:09.19\00:25:11.55
cast dispersions on
other groups or on the
00:25:11.58\00:25:15.52
course of law. Right,
it's a huge problem that
00:25:15.55\00:25:19.38
the present Pope
seems to be ready to admit
00:25:19.41\00:25:21.86
that they will
protect the priests. Right,
00:25:21.89\00:25:24.30
I think that's the
big issue I mean for me
00:25:24.33\00:25:26.72
as someone
that's watching you know
00:25:26.75\00:25:29.33
from a far, I think
acknowledging you know
00:25:29.36\00:25:34.09
the issues, not
trying to hide them under,
00:25:34.12\00:25:36.12
or sweep them under
or keeping them internal
00:25:36.15\00:25:38.08
and then working
for those solutions,
00:25:38.37\00:25:40.73
you know and trying
to help the victims,
00:25:41.83\00:25:45.32
I mean just imagine
from the victim's perspective
00:25:45.43\00:25:48.48
you know if you're
that sincere, you know
00:25:48.51\00:25:50.74
you have this strong
faith in this particular
00:25:50.77\00:25:54.73
faith you know,
religious group and then it's
00:25:55.38\00:25:59.90
damaged in that way,
it needs to be restored.
00:25:59.93\00:26:02.65
Well they're
betraying the faithful,
00:26:02.68\00:26:03.65
that's what it is,
exactly, exactly and the Jesus
00:26:03.66\00:26:05.75
is very plain, whether
you're a Catholic priest
00:26:05.78\00:26:07.71
or Baptist pastor
or an Adventist pastor,
00:26:07.74\00:26:11.84
if you lead these people astray,
00:26:12.27\00:26:14.26
these little
children of faith, yeah,
00:26:14.29\00:26:15.66
is an extra
punishment for you, yeah, yeah,
00:26:15.69\00:26:17.78
Jesus was most
particular on that and the way
00:26:17.81\00:26:21.03
this responsibility,
that extra capability.
00:26:21.06\00:26:23.37
Well, thank you all so
much for joining us today
00:26:24.20\00:26:27.05
in this discussion,
it's been an interesting one.
00:26:27.08\00:26:29.59
I think the point that
I really want to take home
00:26:30.32\00:26:33.14
is that we need to
have that relationship,
00:26:33.17\00:26:36.49
that individual conscience,
so that we are looking
00:26:36.52\00:26:39.98
to God as our
example, as our leader
00:26:40.01\00:26:42.98
and following his way intently.
00:26:43.27\00:26:47.05
Reform within a
Church is always difficult,
00:26:49.28\00:26:52.40
the reformation and
the count of reformation
00:26:53.29\00:26:56.07
a testament of
that, sometime ago I saw a
00:26:56.10\00:26:59.07
movie that was made
to demonstrate attentions
00:26:59.10\00:27:02.57
that Vatican II created in the
00:27:02.60\00:27:04.00
Roman Catholic
Church, it sent it around
00:27:04.03\00:27:06.62
a decedent abbot on a
little island near Ireland
00:27:06.65\00:27:11.62
of the main land
of England and he was
00:27:11.92\00:27:15.09
running the old
fashioned Latin Mass.
00:27:15.24\00:27:17.42
Rome was not happy so
they sent a priest there
00:27:17.82\00:27:20.33
to sort him up and in
the dynamic of this film
00:27:20.36\00:27:23.48
which I understood was
originally a staged play,
00:27:23.51\00:27:25.67
it was quite a dialogue
and a debate between them
00:27:25.70\00:27:28.71
and came through
ahead with the discovery
00:27:29.05\00:27:31.16
that while this priest
was insisting on the old
00:27:31.19\00:27:33.39
forms and decrying
the change in the church,
00:27:33.42\00:27:36.15
he actually had lost
his faith in God and did not
00:27:37.05\00:27:39.91
believe in God
anymore. There is a real need
00:27:39.94\00:27:44.40
whether it's the
Roman Catholic Church
00:27:44.43\00:27:46.17
or indeed every other
faith and certainly my
00:27:46.20\00:27:49.38
faith and my
understanding of God
00:27:49.41\00:27:51.50
to seek true
spirituality not be confused
00:27:51.53\00:27:54.33
by the films, not to
be diluted by history,
00:27:54.36\00:27:56.80
not to be side
tracked by claims of inherency
00:27:56.83\00:28:00.02
but to seek God
while he maybe found.
00:28:00.33\00:28:03.27
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln E. Steed.
00:28:04.86\00:28:08.26