Welcome to "The
Liberty Insider."
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This is the
program that brings you
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up to date news,
views, and information
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on religious liberty
issues around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
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Editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest on the program is
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Attorney Grace
Mackintosh. Welcome Grace.
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I should point
out for our viewers
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again those who
see in another programs
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that you are from Canada.
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You actually of
the Public Affairs
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and Religious Liberty Director
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for our Canadian Union
of Seventh-Day Adventist.
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Yes. I want to talk
with you about something
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away beyond Canada
or little closer to the
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where I'm from Australia.
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I will give you a report
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and we can discuss it a bit.
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Of a visit that I
just recently took with
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Dr. John Graz,
our General Conference
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Religious Liberty Director
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for our world headquarters.
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We took a trip
basically the far sight of the
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earth, umm! umm!
very close to Australia,
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but trip that took
us first to Hong Kong,
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then to
Singapore, then to Jakarta,
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Indonesia, then to Bali,
nice holiday destination,
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although the site
of Al-Qaeda bombing
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and we ended up
then after a another
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plane flied at the,
really the fringes of civilize
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well there is a
little country called
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East Timor. Have you
ever heard of East Timor?
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Of course. You have heard.
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I have heard of East Timor.
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Well, very well informed person.
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But I don't think
all of our viewers will,
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it is not a well known country.
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There is a group
in Downtown Toronto
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that the lobby on
behalf of this East Timor,
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very good, who get
involved with the issues.
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Yeah, I did believe
that in the United States
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it's more out of
sight and out of mind,
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and one proof of
that was, a few years ago
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now as East
Timor was agitating for
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independence and
the United Nation
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actually
required Indonesia, which
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ruled East Timor at
that point a few before
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the turn of the century.
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UN required this
Indonesia to conduct
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a referendum on independence
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in East Timor.
And it turned violent.
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The anti-independence
group agitated by
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Indonesia started
going around killing
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in East Timor mostly Christians.
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That's why we were
down there as a religious
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component to the violence there.
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That is, is this
violence sprawled out of
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control
Australia, which is next door
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made a big plea
to the United Nations
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and to United
States to intervene
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and at that time
neither would do anything.
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So, Australia
sent their troops in.
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Today, the
Australian peace-keeping troops
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are still there a little bit,
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but they have been
largely replaced by
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United Nations peacekeepers.
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And each team will
have the distinction
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of being the very
first new sovereign nation
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of the 21st century.
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It's half of the an
island little bit like
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Haiti and Dominican
republic that share an
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Island. It's half an Island.
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The other half is
still own by Indonesia
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and there is only
one million people,
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a very backward, disadvantaged
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and of course damaged country.
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They lost between the Indonesian
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invasion in 1976.
Portugal had ruled
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it for many
years and the Portugal
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weakened and basically
fell back from the area.
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Indonesia invaded and this one
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nearly 100 percent,
the 90 to 95 per cent
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Muslim nation
invaded predominantly
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Christian East
Timor and from that point
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down until today
it's been estimated there
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as many years
250,000 people were killed
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that of the
population of about a million.
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It's just
terrific. Highly significant.
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Terrific. When
the Indonesian troops
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came in they killed on sight.
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All Chinese
that they could found
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and just put to the
bullet every village
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that they came
across. It was just
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wholesale of killing
and anybody suspected of
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harboring, separate
just ambitions, again.
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And that continued
as I say even up to the
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latest round of violence.
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We visited there and
things were fairly quite.
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I didn't feel any
particular danger,
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but as we stayed with
or visited in the home
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of a doctor,
Seventh-Day Adventist doctor.
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Dr. Greo, who
was assigned to the
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Portuguese
Embassy. They showed the
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photographs that they
had taken right in the
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street outside
their home a few months
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earlier when people
were still agitating for
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independence, or
against independence
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And they said the
young binges martial arts
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clubs took to the
street and were killing
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and harming
people. Then they did have
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machetes and other
martial arts equipment.
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So they were terrorizing people,
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but then the police turned up
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and Dr. Greo said, the police,
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they didn't
give any warning just
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started shooting
and killing on the spot.
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And in the
photograph they took right
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outside the home
just littered with bodies
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just from one end to the other.
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Every few inch
there are dead bodies.
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And worse, then
the police came down
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to the street and
it's more like Spain,
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Portugal, where
hands are whirled off.
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You can, going,
gonna street you just
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surrounded by a wall,
but behind those walls
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is a nice garden and
then a separate home.
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But the police went
down smashing on the
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doors and any door
that was opened then
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they came in and beat
up, sometimes kill the people
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and they said
their guard wanted to
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open the door and he
said it's the police,
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he said it's the
police, I must open this.
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Don't, don't. In the
end, he did and they pulled
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him out and beat him
and they arrested him
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as well. Okay. So,
a difficult situation,
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but we went down
there as you could expect
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from Liberty
Magazine to see what
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what the state
of religious freedom
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is in this new nation.
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As you know on
this, as we share on this
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program all the
time, religious freedom
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and law is, it's
a standard thing.
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There is not too
many countries they deny
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religious
freedom. I know in Canada
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you have, even
though we have some problems
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that we've discussed
with Christians right
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to practice and
speak about their faith
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in the charter and the operative
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legal authorities;
religion is protected
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isn't it. As
protected in the UN ofcourse.
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That's what I
wanted to connect it,
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it promotes <6:54>
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UN charter on
religious freedom guarantees
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everybody the
right for religious self
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determination and
the change religion
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as well as practice religion.
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And so we met with
a number of officials,
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we eventually met
with the president
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Jose Ramos-Horta,
very personable man,
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internationally
well known. He won the
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Nobel Peace Prize
for his efforts to bring
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about peace in his country.
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And he made an
interesting statement
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Okana Donnelly said, (?)
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affirming that their laws do
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guarantee
religious freedom. He said,
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the laws of East
Timor or our country
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he says is for everybody.
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But he says heaven
can be divided up, okay.
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Heaven could be divided up.
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But this country
is for everybody.
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And he meant it in a good way.
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He meant that
everybody is under the
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legal protection and
oversight of the country,
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but the country is
not interested in one
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monolithic form of religion.
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Now that
everybody can make their own
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separate way in
the faith particularly,
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they will be allowed
and protected in that
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and I thought that's interesting
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if the state can
act monolithically,
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but religion
could be fragmented.
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It's not necessarily ideal.
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No, but it does
allow freedom for different
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ideologies. I'm
afraid it's very complex
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and it's a
difficult balancing situation,
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Yeah. You know, for a government
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to allow for the
freedom of different
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ideologies and so restricting.
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And that's what, that was
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Arab to taken on it
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that they are
really in a horrible
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balancing act,
trying to bring in
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well informed,
liberal in the best sense,
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United Nations
base concept of freedom
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of religion and administer that
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in a country
that has been through
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physical trauma,
that has been exposed
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to direct conflict
between religious forces.
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Islam from Indonesia
and Catholicism is the
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predominant
Christian majority down there.
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And how they are
going to bring about this?
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And we have, we have soon found
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ourselves in an
inevitable position
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as we went from
the president to the
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vice-prime minister
to the director of the
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education
department. We met with the
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leader of the
Fretilin party, which was once
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seen as a
communist guerrilla movement,
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but this, this
president had been elected as
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prime minister
recently, but he just
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go couldn't form a government.
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You know, that from Canada
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or Australia or
other country. Yes.
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You can win the
election, but if you
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can't pull the
correlation together
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you don't rule. And as we met
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with all of
these people including
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the lead
spokeswoman from parliament
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on religious
affairs, we were in the
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inevitable position
of agreeing with that
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they had, will have
good laws, but telling them
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particularly where it was
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falling down in practice.
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As I said, they predominantly
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Roman Catholic,
although, it's a funny
00:10:07.16\00:10:09.40
reality of the
religious identification
00:10:09.43\00:10:11.58
in East Timor. When
the Indonesians first
00:10:11.61\00:10:14.78
took over they
were largely animist.
00:10:14.81\00:10:16.79
There is some
Catholic influence because
00:10:17.76\00:10:19.48
of Portugal, but it's
a reaction against the
00:10:19.51\00:10:23.42
invasion by an
Islamic nation. People on mass
00:10:23.45\00:10:28.62
converted to
Catholicism are identified,
00:10:29.36\00:10:31.33
so in one phase it
became 95 percent plus
00:10:31.36\00:10:35.65
Catholic nation.
They still retain
00:10:36.40\00:10:38.41
their animist
tendencies, but they are
00:10:38.44\00:10:40.30
Catholic
culturally. And now in this new
00:10:40.33\00:10:43.12
nation is
Adventist and other probably,
00:10:43.15\00:10:47.95
mostly protestant
minorities try to witness
00:10:47.98\00:10:50.58
in living with the communities.
00:10:50.61\00:10:51.84
They are being
actively persecuted,
00:10:51.87\00:10:54.29
actively
persecuted. And the pastor,
00:10:56.20\00:11:00.20
who is the
president of this small group
00:11:00.23\00:11:02.44
there and the
local pastors told us
00:11:02.47\00:11:04.65
that only the
week before we came.
00:11:04.68\00:11:06.23
They had a
conflict in village, where
00:11:06.26\00:11:08.74
they were trying
to build a Church
00:11:08.77\00:11:09.74
and it ended up with
the minicircle in the
00:11:09.75\00:11:12.52
town square,
where the police chief
00:11:12.55\00:11:15.82
and his assistant
was sitting there,
00:11:15.85\00:11:17.50
the priest,
other community leaders
00:11:17.53\00:11:19.96
in a circle to
hear the grievance.
00:11:19.99\00:11:21.94
And in front of
very everybody, the wife
00:11:21.97\00:11:23.81
of the catechist
got up and just in a
00:11:23.84\00:11:25.75
frenzy, hatred,
and anger and screaming
00:11:25.78\00:11:29.53
and yelling,
she came up and beat
00:11:29.56\00:11:31.52
the two pastors
about the face and punched
00:11:32.06\00:11:34.93
them and everything
and screamed at them
00:11:34.96\00:11:37.19
and they looked at
the police and they said,
00:11:37.22\00:11:38.90
can't you get her
stop this and he said,
00:11:40.15\00:11:41.48
no, no this is fine.
00:11:41.51\00:11:42.66
This is what the
community wishes.
00:11:42.69\00:11:44.12
The community standard. Right.
00:11:46.38\00:11:47.88
A community grudge.
And then that was bad
00:11:47.91\00:11:52.30
enough, although
in discussion with the
00:11:52.33\00:11:54.51
leaders they agreed
that it's hard for them
00:11:54.54\00:11:57.19
to stop that
because that's bad attitude
00:11:57.22\00:11:59.48
that's produced lattitudes.
00:11:59.51\00:12:00.89
The law is quite
plain that they afraid.
00:12:00.92\00:12:03.25
The one thing that
you might want to come
00:12:04.77\00:12:06.54
in little bit more on this.
00:12:06.57\00:12:08.40
One thing that we
found problematic as well
00:12:08.43\00:12:11.15
they are committed
to religious freedom,
00:12:11.18\00:12:12.78
it is the law down
that there that every
00:12:12.81\00:12:14.97
child attend school on Saturday.
00:12:15.00\00:12:17.52
Well, for a
Seventh-Day Adventist
00:12:20.18\00:12:22.41
or a Jew, where
would that leave you.
00:12:22.44\00:12:24.53
What do you do?
00:12:24.56\00:12:25.60
Well, in Canada, we
have a commutation lies
00:12:26.60\00:12:28.57
though in the employment sector
00:12:28.60\00:12:32.84
education sectors as well
00:12:32.87\00:12:34.70
that if you have a
law, but you have no way of,
00:12:35.94\00:12:40.74
no mechanism for
compliance to straw man.
00:12:41.98\00:12:45.83
After the break, we will be back
00:12:47.85\00:12:48.98
to continue this discussion.
00:12:49.01\00:12:50.45
It's largely my
report, but I want to interact
00:12:51.19\00:12:53.50
with Grace on East
Timor and the implications
00:12:53.53\00:12:57.04
for religious liberty beyond
00:12:57.07\00:12:58.93
that very small new nation.
00:12:58.96\00:13:00.78
One hundred years, a
long time to do anything
00:13:10.18\00:13:13.41
much less publish a magazine,
00:13:13.44\00:13:15.30
but this year Liberty
00:13:15.33\00:13:17.29
the Seventh-day Adventist voice
00:13:17.32\00:13:19.18
of religious freedom celebrates
00:13:19.21\00:13:20.98
one hundred years of
doing what it does best,
00:13:21.01\00:13:23.61
collecting,
analyzing and reporting the
00:13:23.64\00:13:26.67
add and flow of
religious expression
00:13:26.70\00:13:28.73
around the world.
Issue after issue,
00:13:28.76\00:13:31.40
Liberty has taken on
the tough assignments
00:13:32.01\00:13:34.01
tracking down
threats to religious freedom
00:13:34.04\00:13:36.35
and exposing the
work of the devil in every
00:13:36.38\00:13:38.62
corner of the globe.
00:13:38.65\00:13:39.75
Governmental
interference, personal
00:13:39.78\00:13:42.02
attacks, corporate
assaults, even religious
00:13:42.05\00:13:44.94
issues
sequestered within the church
00:13:44.97\00:13:46.65
community itself
have been clearly
00:13:46.68\00:13:48.84
and honestly exposed.
00:13:48.87\00:13:50.15
Liberty exists for
one purpose to help
00:13:51.15\00:13:53.57
God's people
maintain that all important
00:13:53.60\00:13:56.39
separation of Church in state
00:13:56.42\00:13:58.05
while recognizing
the dangers inherent
00:13:58.08\00:14:00.61
in such a struggle.
00:14:00.64\00:14:01.61
During the past
century, Liberty has
00:14:02.38\00:14:04.20
experienced
challenges of its own,
00:14:04.23\00:14:05.87
but it remains on the job.
00:14:05.90\00:14:07.88
Thanks to the
inspired leadership of the
00:14:07.91\00:14:10.41
long line of
dedicated Adventist editors.
00:14:10.44\00:14:12.40
Three of whom
represent almost half of the
00:14:12.43\00:14:14.76
publication
existence. And the foresight
00:14:14.79\00:14:17.01
of a little
women from New England.
00:14:17.04\00:14:18.92
One hundred years of struggle.
00:14:19.62\00:14:21.26
One hundred years of victories.
00:14:21.29\00:14:23.37
Religious
freedom isn't just about
00:14:23.40\00:14:25.54
political machines
and cultural prejudices.
00:14:25.57\00:14:28.26
It's about people
fighting for the right
00:14:28.29\00:14:31.43
to serve the God
they love as their hearts
00:14:31.46\00:14:34.34
and the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:34.37\00:14:36.55
Thanks to the
prayers and generous support
00:14:36.58\00:14:38.93
of Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere.
00:14:38.96\00:14:40.90
Liberty will
continue to accomplish
00:14:40.93\00:14:43.22
its work of
providing timely information,
00:14:43.25\00:14:45.33
spiritual
inspiration and heaven sent
00:14:45.36\00:14:47.83
encouragement to
all who long to live
00:14:47.86\00:14:50.75
and work in the
world bound together by the
00:14:50.78\00:14:53.80
God or demons of
religious freedom.
00:14:53.83\00:14:57.37
Welcome back to
"The Liberty Insider."
00:15:08.15\00:15:09.60
Before the break I
was giving a report
00:15:09.63\00:15:12.13
to you and viewers in
discussing with I guess,
00:15:13.92\00:15:16.40
Grace Mackintosh
report on what the task force
00:15:16.43\00:15:21.50
visit to East Timor,
we found there generally
00:15:22.41\00:15:24.92
and in particular
on religious liberty
00:15:25.46\00:15:27.12
and I was
pointing out Grace that
00:15:27.15\00:15:29.04
while we heard very
sincere and accurate
00:15:30.61\00:15:34.15
representations from
the government leaders
00:15:34.18\00:15:36.04
of this new country
that they are granting
00:15:36.75\00:15:38.85
religious freedom. We
found quite a different
00:15:38.88\00:15:41.54
story in the real
world, in the villages,
00:15:41.57\00:15:45.17
sometimes even of a
prosecution of religious
00:15:46.75\00:15:49.87
groups. We even, for example,
00:15:49.90\00:15:51.72
we map with the
number of protestant leaders
00:15:51.75\00:15:54.56
this doesn't look
like a bashing Catholics,
00:15:54.59\00:15:56.64
right, you are the
majority in that country.
00:15:56.67\00:15:58.44
But even within
the Protestant factions
00:15:58.47\00:16:00.60
they were very
uncomfortable with
00:16:00.63\00:16:03.13
other Protestant
groups coming into the country
00:16:03.16\00:16:05.33
and quite willing
to use law and whatever
00:16:05.36\00:16:08.38
means I could bring
to bed to restrict them
00:16:08.41\00:16:11.56
to margin laws them
and then chase them out
00:16:11.59\00:16:13.20
out of the villages.
They had no right to be
00:16:13.23\00:16:15.24
their according to
them. And we found that
00:16:15.27\00:16:17.52
very humorous
because of some relatively
00:16:17.55\00:16:19.84
recent point they
were the new comers.
00:16:19.87\00:16:21.63
But now they were
willing to restrict
00:16:22.24\00:16:23.89
and to harass, but
what we found particularly
00:16:23.92\00:16:27.77
and this is what, what I wanted
00:16:27.80\00:16:28.84
discuss with you, I
found that bring a law
00:16:28.87\00:16:32.93
in the schools that everybody
00:16:32.96\00:16:34.70
was required to go,
is required to go to
00:16:34.73\00:16:36.97
school on
Saturdays, which is the Sabbath
00:16:37.00\00:16:39.06
of the Bible and for
Seventh-Day Adventist.
00:16:39.82\00:16:41.29
And that presents,
almost a winnable situation
00:16:42.13\00:16:47.27
for our people that
they are willing to stand
00:16:47.30\00:16:49.32
for their fight. Yes.
00:16:49.35\00:16:51.17
Sabbath is pretty important for
00:16:51.20\00:16:52.18
Seventh-Day Adventist
written into add name.
00:16:52.21\00:16:54.02
And so is this
in the legislation
00:16:54.85\00:16:56.36
to have a six day school?
00:16:56.39\00:16:58.40
They have a six day school.
00:16:59.22\00:17:00.62
And so as we talked both to the
00:17:01.66\00:17:04.04
Educational Directors
and to the young people
00:17:04.07\00:17:07.00
who are affected.
We found the same story
00:17:07.03\00:17:09.07
and is now almost confessing it.
00:17:09.10\00:17:10.43
If you missed the Saturday
00:17:10.94\00:17:12.95
you are likely to fail.
00:17:14.37\00:17:15.34
You would be
failed because you don't
00:17:16.99\00:17:18.35
put in a enough appearances in
00:17:18.38\00:17:19.94
the exams and other
things draw from there
00:17:19.97\00:17:21.50
that was bad enough. Say, you
00:17:23.08\00:17:25.37
could fail or a number of
cases they were being expelled
00:17:25.40\00:17:28.29
from the schools,
where I go was a real plain
00:17:28.32\00:17:32.67
because its
requirement everywhere,
00:17:32.70\00:17:35.01
but they would sort of drop
00:17:35.04\00:17:36.51
of the map of
the education system.
00:17:36.54\00:17:38.52
If they stayed in the
school, which some were
00:17:39.77\00:17:41.84
able to do with
lot of harassment.
00:17:41.87\00:17:43.53
They would then marginalized
00:17:44.15\00:17:45.58
and just regularly treated badly
00:17:45.61\00:17:49.04
and what
absolutely cut off from any
00:17:49.07\00:17:52.13
possibility of
advancement in that society.
00:17:52.16\00:17:54.62
Remarked, is there any kind of
00:17:54.65\00:17:57.32
punishment or
penalty with respect
00:17:57.35\00:18:00.26
to the parents or the guardians?
00:18:00.29\00:18:02.34
No, it's not quite
like communist countries.
00:18:02.37\00:18:04.48
We didn't pick up as
it was in communist times,
00:18:05.05\00:18:09.14
which had the same
requirement you had
00:18:09.17\00:18:11.47
to go to school on Saturday
00:18:11.50\00:18:12.56
almost all communist
countries and that would
00:18:12.59\00:18:14.54
eventually main
that the child would be
00:18:14.57\00:18:16.89
removed from the parents and
00:18:16.92\00:18:18.06
put into state custody.
00:18:18.09\00:18:19.25
So, during your
discussions is there any
00:18:20.04\00:18:21.81
mechanism such as
loving or letters to the
00:18:23.50\00:18:26.18
government or the
minister of education.
00:18:26.21\00:18:27.93
Well, we were loving.
That's what I thought.
00:18:27.96\00:18:29.53
Yes, affectively. So
well then what happened?
00:18:29.56\00:18:31.38
Well, we had a very
profitable talk with
00:18:31.41\00:18:33.74
the, wasn't real
plain her actual title
00:18:33.77\00:18:37.68
we would told
initially that this woman
00:18:37.71\00:18:39.56
that we went so
was the, the vice-chair
00:18:39.59\00:18:42.70
of the parliament.
In the end they were
00:18:42.73\00:18:46.57
talking as
though she was the lead
00:18:46.60\00:18:49.85
legislator for
religious affairs. Oh! I see.
00:18:49.88\00:18:53.94
I myself think she
had a preeminent position
00:18:53.97\00:18:56.38
because while we were,
we were actually in the
00:18:56.41\00:18:57.83
legislature
talking and several other
00:18:57.86\00:18:59.68
legislators came
around and she like
00:18:59.71\00:19:02.72
differ to her. She
spoke very authoritatively
00:19:02.75\00:19:05.54
as we share
this, she said to them
00:19:05.57\00:19:07.82
we gonna have
to change this law.
00:19:07.85\00:19:09.07
We gonna have to do this.
00:19:09.10\00:19:10.14
So do you think that
they will be, I think
00:19:10.17\00:19:12.12
there is a
willingness too, interacting.
00:19:12.15\00:19:13.46
Because they are
really building a country
00:19:13.49\00:19:16.20
from the ground up.
It's interesting to say,
00:19:16.23\00:19:18.67
it's just like a
grand experiment.
00:19:18.70\00:19:20.25
Yes. It was rather a mind bender
00:19:20.28\00:19:23.24
for me to talk to
this lady probably
00:19:23.27\00:19:25.56
on the 30s, perhaps 40s.
00:19:25.59\00:19:27.28
Her accent was more
Australian then mine is
00:19:29.71\00:19:31.70
and I said, I
said, I have to say.
00:19:33.26\00:19:35.15
You've got a very
strong Australian accent.
00:19:35.18\00:19:37.54
And she said, well I went there
00:19:37.57\00:19:39.23
as a refugee for
many years. Oh! I see
00:19:39.26\00:19:41.53
When the Indonesians
had invaded many of them
00:19:41.56\00:19:44.25
had to leave the
country. She said
00:19:44.28\00:19:46.02
then I studied, I
have to get the college,
00:19:46.05\00:19:47.96
but she studied
in a State University
00:19:47.99\00:19:50.63
in Australia. So
very well educated,
00:19:50.66\00:19:52.98
very well-informed young woman,
00:19:53.01\00:19:57.35
younger than me I'm
sure. Most providential.
00:19:57.38\00:19:59.20
And yes, we can be
hopeful that for what
00:19:59.97\00:20:02.75
she heard not just
from us, but we had the
00:20:02.78\00:20:05.55
the local pastors there
and I gave the testimony.
00:20:07.09\00:20:09.11
I think there is
a good chance that
00:20:09.14\00:20:10.47
they will change that provision.
00:20:10.50\00:20:11.80
But it's an
example of how easily
00:20:11.83\00:20:14.38
a one single law
like that could just
00:20:14.41\00:20:16.95
basically create, you know,
00:20:16.98\00:20:20.22
a total head on
collision with the practice
00:20:20.25\00:20:23.31
of religious
faith. Indirectly, right.
00:20:23.34\00:20:25.66
Not with mallows in this case.
00:20:25.69\00:20:26.96
They told us that
they just wanted to provide
00:20:28.53\00:20:29.94
adequate education
and someone thought
00:20:29.97\00:20:31.82
that they could apply
their resources hopefully
00:20:31.85\00:20:34.17
with six rather
than five days. Umm! Umm!
00:20:34.20\00:20:36.86
Did you have that.
It was very illuminating
00:20:36.89\00:20:40.97
for us to see. See
what was happening in a
00:20:41.00\00:20:44.17
negative way and
then to see the nation
00:20:44.20\00:20:46.93
reflects that how
quickly they could accept
00:20:46.96\00:20:49.24
the responsibility
and try to fix that.
00:20:49.27\00:20:51.29
But at the end of
the day, we were faced
00:20:51.32\00:20:53.28
with this
dichotomy between laws,
00:20:53.31\00:20:55.31
good laws and bad
suicidal attitudes
00:20:55.34\00:20:58.83
and how you reconciled us too.
00:20:58.86\00:21:00.84
Very interesting, can I share
00:21:02.31\00:21:03.43
a Canadian story with
you. Yes, it's allowed.
00:21:03.46\00:21:05.97
Just recently, I
received an e-mail from
00:21:06.00\00:21:09.33
a young gentleman
in British Columbia
00:21:09.36\00:21:12.73
and he is studying
Cardiologist technology.
00:21:13.42\00:21:15.90
And the exam is
scheduled for Sabbath
00:21:17.45\00:21:21.69
and he has put in
over $20,000 into this
00:21:22.25\00:21:25.15
education and so
the exams in April
00:21:25.18\00:21:29.24
at the end of
April and in January.
00:21:29.27\00:21:31.69
He in
accordance with the policy,
00:21:32.68\00:21:34.29
he provided to them
all the documentation
00:21:34.32\00:21:36.92
necessary to show
that he should have
00:21:36.95\00:21:41.42
a religious
exemption. And they were
00:21:41.45\00:21:43.29
to give him an
alternate exam date.
00:21:43.32\00:21:44.86
And as they
didn't get back to him,
00:21:45.83\00:21:48.01
they didn't get back
to him and finally they
00:21:48.04\00:21:49.48
got back to him
sometime in March and said,
00:21:49.51\00:21:51.43
and you were denied. Umm!
00:21:51.46\00:21:53.34
And he wrote to them and he said
00:21:53.37\00:21:54.88
why I am I denied
because I gathered all
00:21:54.91\00:21:56.91
the criteria. And they said,
00:21:56.94\00:21:58.63
you are denied
because we do realize that we,
00:21:58.66\00:22:03.69
you know, we need to give you
00:22:04.95\00:22:07.72
religious
exemption. However, because
00:22:07.75\00:22:10.32
you are Seventh-Day Adventist
00:22:10.35\00:22:12.09
and you are not
supposed to work on Sabbath.
00:22:12.92\00:22:14.65
And if we ever hear
that you are working
00:22:15.14\00:22:16.92
and making
yourself available to work
00:22:16.95\00:22:18.42
on Sabbath. Then
that we negate the need
00:22:18.45\00:22:21.84
for an alternate exam date.
00:22:21.87\00:22:23.15
And because of that we
are denying your request.
00:22:23.72\00:22:26.25
And we are so dealing with that
00:22:26.28\00:22:27.91
and so these issues
come up in the education
00:22:27.94\00:22:31.21
area all over
and here in Canada,
00:22:31.98\00:22:36.09
where we have
accommodation loss,
00:22:36.12\00:22:37.70
you know, this could
happen. So, it's very
00:22:37.73\00:22:40.51
interesting to
hear that there are so
00:22:40.54\00:22:42.53
accommodating in East Timor.
00:22:42.56\00:22:44.32
Well, this case is
good, less saw, did I say
00:22:45.20\00:22:47.64
it correctly
that they understood
00:22:47.67\00:22:49.95
his special need, but
presuming that he might
00:22:49.98\00:22:52.62
compromise his own stance that
00:22:52.65\00:22:54.04
that they were not gonna give.
00:22:54.07\00:22:55.04
That's exactly what they said.
00:22:55.05\00:22:56.59
That is amazing, double guess.
00:22:56.62\00:22:57.79
And he has, where
the hospital today
00:22:57.82\00:23:00.23
he is. He said, do
you know, I am going to
00:23:00.26\00:23:03.16
search humanity on
Sabbath as absolutely
00:23:03.19\00:23:05.70
and keeping with
Sabbath and I am going to
00:23:05.73\00:23:07.33
to provide
essential health care services
00:23:07.36\00:23:09.36
on Sabbath. I think
keeping with the Sabbath,
00:23:09.39\00:23:11.54
but you know if
it's not essential
00:23:12.19\00:23:14.44
and so on. I would
like to have Sabbath offer
00:23:14.47\00:23:17.09
I couldn't he has not worked
00:23:17.12\00:23:18.33
to Sabbath yet. So
it's possible that the
00:23:18.36\00:23:20.86
board, you know,
this a board where you
00:23:20.89\00:23:23.60
register as a
Cardiologist Technologist
00:23:23.63\00:23:25.82
have heard that
or looked into it,
00:23:28.57\00:23:29.54
and they decided.
00:23:29.55\00:23:30.89
Well, I'm sure
aware you deal with lot of
00:23:31.69\00:23:34.99
accommodation
cases. It's always a factor
00:23:35.02\00:23:38.81
when someone is
asking for accommodation
00:23:38.84\00:23:40.42
in the work place.
How consistent they
00:23:40.45\00:23:42.83
have been about
following their own stance.
00:23:42.86\00:23:45.08
And it certainly
undercuts of greatly.
00:23:45.11\00:23:46.77
If someone wants Sabbath of,
00:23:46.80\00:23:49.43
if the private
behavior they are not acting
00:23:50.24\00:23:54.47
consistent as a Christian would
00:23:54.50\00:23:55.75
and if it's
known that they go to
00:23:55.78\00:23:57.94
football games say on, exactly,
00:23:57.97\00:23:59.92
Saturday and so on.
00:23:59.95\00:24:00.92
This gentleman is in
totally in keeping with,
00:24:00.93\00:24:02.87
with the whole
idea of keeping Sabbath.
00:24:02.90\00:24:06.16
We do serve humanity
on the Sabbath, Jesus did.
00:24:06.19\00:24:09.13
Well, yes, and,
and, and there is another
00:24:09.16\00:24:11.91
catch on the
catch 22 with the other
00:24:11.94\00:24:13.57
irony that, while we are all
00:24:14.11\00:24:17.67
called to abstain
from work on Sabbath.
00:24:17.70\00:24:20.52
There is pretty much a pass been
00:24:20.55\00:24:22.17
given to medical service.
00:24:22.20\00:24:23.80
The central
services, but I do think even
00:24:23.83\00:24:26.23
the Seventh-Day
Adventist Hospitals
00:24:26.26\00:24:27.61
could be looked at
more stringently just
00:24:27.64\00:24:30.57
because they are in
the area of service.
00:24:30.60\00:24:32.96
Doesn't mean it
should be business as usual.
00:24:32.99\00:24:34.85
I think if possible
it should be scale back
00:24:35.65\00:24:37.63
and not even necessary work
00:24:37.66\00:24:39.30
done with, all
of the facilities,
00:24:39.33\00:24:41.18
it's an interesting case.
00:24:41.21\00:24:42.18
All of the facilities in Canada
00:24:42.19\00:24:43.71
that I have had
contact what they do.
00:24:43.74\00:24:45.54
Well, that's good.
And it feels like Sabbath
00:24:45.57\00:24:46.92
in its. It's spiritually
you are still able to
00:24:46.95\00:24:51.20
to have the sense of the Sabbath
00:24:51.23\00:24:53.54
as supposed to a
secular medical facility.
00:24:54.35\00:24:57.15
We don't, we don't
have enough time left,
00:24:58.33\00:25:00.13
so another time I'm gonna share
00:25:00.16\00:25:01.81
the second of half of our visit,
00:25:01.84\00:25:04.29
which was in
Indonesia, where we had a
00:25:04.32\00:25:06.63
mass rally as
well as meeting with
00:25:06.66\00:25:08.96
community leaders
including the leaders
00:25:08.99\00:25:11.03
of the largest
Muslim organizations.
00:25:11.06\00:25:13.04
It's not question
that our will today
00:25:13.84\00:25:16.37
is struggling
with that to relate to
00:25:16.40\00:25:18.85
radical Islam and
I've sometimes thought
00:25:18.88\00:25:22.19
that this is part
from Islam itself.
00:25:22.22\00:25:24.75
It's a precipitating
factor in many countries
00:25:24.78\00:25:28.32
on how they look
at religion in general
00:25:28.35\00:25:30.27
general in
particular active as religion.
00:25:30.30\00:25:31.97
Well, thanks for
sharing the story from Canada
00:25:33.04\00:25:37.41
and I'm sure there
are many, many things
00:25:38.31\00:25:40.60
that illustrate the need to work
00:25:40.63\00:25:44.17
for accommodation for Adventist
00:25:44.20\00:25:45.72
or anyone who faith to
be consistent with their
00:25:45.75\00:25:48.56
own beliefs in the workplace.
00:25:48.59\00:25:49.80
How would you
summarize since you brought
00:25:50.50\00:25:54.67
it up this need for
being consistent with
00:25:54.70\00:25:57.03
the stance that you
ask for accommodation.
00:25:57.06\00:25:58.95
That's a very
good question Lincoln
00:25:59.88\00:26:01.46
and we need to look
to Jesus and his example
00:26:02.07\00:26:05.47
with respect to
the Sabbath and how
00:26:05.50\00:26:07.27
should be kept.
We need to understand
00:26:07.30\00:26:09.22
its significance
biblically and we need
00:26:09.25\00:26:11.37
to understand significance
00:26:11.40\00:26:13.47
to ourselves personally.
00:26:13.50\00:26:15.00
We can create a pejorative view
00:26:15.52\00:26:17.21
of the Sabbath in
the mind of others
00:26:17.24\00:26:19.81
by how we
approaching including employers
00:26:20.79\00:26:23.19
and government.
So, if we are asking
00:26:23.22\00:26:25.09
for Sabbath's off
to go to a hockey game
00:26:25.12\00:26:27.51
this can create a
great deal of prejudice
00:26:27.54\00:26:29.99
and we will lose
all the opportunity
00:26:30.02\00:26:32.16
for religious
exemptions or accommodation
00:26:32.30\00:26:34.32
in the future. Conversely,
00:26:34.35\00:26:36.57
I think that we need
to be careful in what
00:26:36.60\00:26:39.39
context we ask for
Sabbath off when it's a
00:26:39.42\00:26:41.64
central services or
central health care.
00:26:41.67\00:26:43.94
What's the
messages that we are sending
00:26:43.97\00:26:46.01
to the community.
00:26:46.04\00:26:47.01
We should prayerfully
approach the situations.
00:26:47.55\00:26:50.11
East Timor is clearly
a country in transition.
00:26:52.19\00:26:55.38
This newest
sovereign state of the
00:26:55.41\00:26:57.25
21st century is
occupied by United Nations
00:26:57.28\00:27:00.63
peace-keepers and
shares all the signs
00:27:00.66\00:27:03.12
of a country in
flux and distress.
00:27:03.15\00:27:06.46
And yet if you look
after one side of the city,
00:27:07.79\00:27:09.85
the capital of
Bali is a large concrete
00:27:09.88\00:27:12.24
figure of Christ
arms outstretched
00:27:12.27\00:27:14.19
in a attitude of
prayer over that developing
00:27:14.22\00:27:18.66
country. It was a
gift from Islamic Indonesia
00:27:18.69\00:27:23.10
toward nominally
Christian East Timor.
00:27:23.98\00:27:27.01
Today in East
Timor, they are struggling
00:27:28.67\00:27:30.22
to give true
religious liberty to all of the
00:27:30.25\00:27:33.19
inhabitants.
Seventh-Day Adventists
00:27:33.22\00:27:35.32
are regularly arrest
for the faith and yet
00:27:35.35\00:27:39.68
as so many
Christians through the ages,
00:27:39.71\00:27:42.50
it's obvious
that had determine to
00:27:43.09\00:27:44.81
witness for Christ,
no matter what comes.
00:27:44.84\00:27:47.27
The Sabbath is
important just because they
00:27:48.12\00:27:51.93
are required to go to
school on the biblical
00:27:51.96\00:27:54.93
Sabbath, doesn't
mean that they have to
00:27:54.96\00:27:57.27
obey man in such things.
00:27:57.30\00:27:58.76
It's my open pray
that all of us will show
00:28:00.26\00:28:03.82
by our lives
that we had committed
00:28:03.85\00:28:05.66
to obey Christ the same way.
00:28:05.69\00:28:07.64
This is Lincoln
Steed for Liberty Insider.
00:28:09.49\00:28:12.07