Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
that brings you up-to-date
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news, views and
discussion on religious
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liberty issues. My
name is Lincoln Steed,
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Editor of Liberty
Magazine, and my guest
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on the program
is Grace Mackintosh.
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I hesitated
there, I meant to say
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Attorney Grace
Mackintosh. No problem.
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Our listeners, our
viewers need to know
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that. Also I need to
explain your position.
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You're in charge
of public affairs and
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religious liberty for
the Canadian union of the
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Seventh-day Adventist church.
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Yes. Grace, I want to get into
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philosophical discussion
with you on this program.
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At least as we kick it
off. Religious liberty is
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a vital thing. I think
you and I are agreed on
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that, we wouldn't
be on this program and
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protecting religious
liberty is important.
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But it seems to me
whether you are talking
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about religious
liberty or civil liberties in
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general. You are
talking about protecting a state
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of mind less than
protecting the actual
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practice. If the
state of mind changes in a
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population, the
battle is lost, isn't it?
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How do you see
changes in our society whether
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it is in Canada or
the United States or in
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other countries?
How do you see these
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social changes
that we're undergoing,
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playing in to the
protection of religious
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liberty? Is
there something at work
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that is just more
insidious than just
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losing a court case or
a particular instance of
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prosecution.
Yes, I think that it
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seems to be semantic.
We see it in academia,
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we see it in print and
cultural, movies, music,
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gaming and there is a
move towards this post
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modernist
thinking, this world view of
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relativism. And there
is a quote I can't say who
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to attribute it to but
it basically says that story
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tellers define the
culture. And so who are
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our story
tellers. Who is setting the
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narrative, right?
Who is setting the
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narrative and the mass mindset?
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Maybe you should
define post modernism.
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How would you define
post modernism to our
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viewers. I see
post modernism as a
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long word that means
relativity, everything is
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relative and you're
arrogant if you say to me
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that you have the truth
or you know the truth and
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that's arrogance
because of course there is lots
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of truths and none of
them are better than each
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other and this is where
is the starting point and
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so when we have
competing truths as to
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who will have a
voice and when is the voice
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restrictive or infringing
on my liberty and this
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is the frame work
within which we have our legal
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discussions in our legislative.
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I asked you that
question for a reason because
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I think it's
certainly within the Adventist
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community when
they talk about post
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modernism. Most
people don't know what it
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means and they think
it just sort of means that
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modern world really
doesn't have as much
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we need to deal with
the increasingly secular
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audience. But I think
it's far deeper than that
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and as you described in
some ways I could link it
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back to visiting the
60s certainly in the 70s
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there was situation
ethics. There was lot of
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absolute right or
wrong, you do whatever is
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expedient and if you
feel that it's right.
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You know that might be
okay. I think that laid
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the ground work, and
I think it was the first
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modern, I'm using
the term modern again,
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the modern early
warning sign of a moral collapse
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in the society.
And you'll noticed that
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those types of discussions were
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compulsory in
school curriculum when this
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became an accepted
trial and it always comes
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out of academia in my opinion.
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Well, you know its
with the chicken or the egg
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thing, that does academia
color the entire society
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or does it reflect and
I think there is a bit of
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both. Because our
society is drifting away from
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absolutes in any area
and part of its being foisted
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on, this isn't
because scientific norms have
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been questioned all
the time, new discoveries
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and so even the
average person on the street
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could sort of begin
to think well, you know,
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we're just sort of
moving into a brave new world.
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What I think is true
now maybe superseded if not
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made untrue.
There is another reality
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coming and you
know the Bible is an
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ancient document
and moral codes there of
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dealing in an
ancient civilization. So it's
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fairly easy to sort
of think, well we have to
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apply it differently
and may be not even look
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on it so rigorously
as our fore bearers did
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and I think the
net effect is just a
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flattening out of an
individual imperative and
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once I used to say
when I was young I am okay,
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you are okay sort
of thing. If that's,
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if you want to do
that, that's cool.
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Right. And yet we're going to
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the next stage where
in a way it's not just the
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old absolutes are disappearing.
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They're actually
being attacked because it's
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retrograde thinking
in a post modern world to
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be so sure about
something, to have a
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moral campus, to
have an opinion it's
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unacceptable. I would agree,
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and it's not a new
concept. I have quotes
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from two individuals
in front of me, one is a
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speech to the
Roman Senate in 42 BC and
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another is a quote
from Italian party communist
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leader from 1921.
Thus communism gone
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the way of the old
norms. Please read that
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statement of areas has passed.
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From the senate? Cicero. Cicero.
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A nation can survive
its fools and even the
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ambitious, but it
cannot survive treason from
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within. An enemy at the
gates is less formidable
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for he is known and
he carries his banners
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openly, but the
trader moves among those
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within the gates
freely, his sly whispers
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wrestling
through all the valleys.
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Heard in the very
halls of government itself,
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but the trader
appears not as a trader,
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he speaks in accents
familiar to his victims
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and he wears their
face and their garments and
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he appeals to the
baseness that lies deep
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in the hearts of all
men. He rots the soul of a
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nation. He works secretly
and unknown in the night
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to undermine the
pillars of a city.
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He infects the body
politic so that it can
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no longer resist. A
murder is less to be
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feared. That's an interesting
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quote. As you
were reading that I was
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thinking back in
church history, that in the
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Roman Catholic
Church which was the major
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Christian body for a longtime.
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I mean it wasn't the
only view point in fact,
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we could make a good
argument that there were
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quite decedents
Biblically secure
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decedents always
that existed apart from
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Rome. But has that
political body for a
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long time. Remember
it established a group
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called the Jesuits. Yes.
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Ignatius Loyola and was
exactly this concept that
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he seized upon. I mean
I'm not misrepresenting
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the Jesuits, he
could have just as easily
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brought a statement
from Ignatius Loyola.
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He saw very plainly
that the clearest way to
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destroy an enemy was to
get within and to subvert
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the very concepts,
the very understandings of
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who they were. Many people have
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forgotten that and
it's not for me to say what
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what the Jesuits are doing now.
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But it's a plain
historical fact that they
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recognize that dynamic
as an extremely effective
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way to destroy an opposition.
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And I see that
happening in society
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today though the
media, in all forms of the
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media. Sure. We're really being
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overwhelmed with
different theories
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but they seem that
there is some themes in there
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that are consistent,
that I have seen at least
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in the last year or
so. The quote from the
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Italian party leader in
1921 is also interesting
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in an developed society
the seizure of political
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powers is not possible
until after the seizure
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of cultural power,
that's Antonio Gramsci.
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And culturally
speaking think that if we were
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to take a look at
what's happening it's
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profound. Profound. This in my
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mind links to what
I've often shared on this
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program since 9/11
some of the changes that
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happened in the United States.
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Not things that were
forced on society but
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things that sort of
bubbled up as a result
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of the panic of 9/11
were very problematic to many
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things. Where
people's fears caused them to
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actually clamor for
changes in laws or their
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application that would
diminish their freedoms
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to actually be
zealous about putting down
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different view
points because they saw them
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as a threat. You
couldn't accomplish repression
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of "freedom" any
better, if you tried it out
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through a dictatorial
path. But here it was
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done from within.
We are in the process
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of destroying ourselves,
everything that we stood
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for, you know George
Bush at the time says the
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terrorists you know
don't like what we stand for.
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Whether that was
narrowly true I don't
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know but was the
answer to give away what we
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stood for. And in
the western world and the
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United States,
Canada where you are from.
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There has been not just
a tradition, there has been
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a developing concept of
the rights of man and in
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particular the
rights of the human being to
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practice their
faith unimpeded and to
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proclaim that faith
freely. And I think in
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many ways in the
post modern world,
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that very concept is
under attack not by some
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legal prohibition
nor some zealous public
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official. It's
under attack in the very
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society itself. I
agree and it's very
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insidious, because
you may find yourself
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espousing these views
and not even realizing
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and that that's what
it is. I think that its
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had a chilling effect
throughout Christianity
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and in particular in
the Seventh-day Adventist
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church. I have heard
people say why were so
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arrogant to say that
we have the truth and
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Christianity in
general would agree that that's
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arrogant now to say
that you have the truth.
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And I see this is a
direct result of the
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influence of the
post modernist thinking.
00:11:00.88\00:11:03.70
And we're moving
away from exclusivity,
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we're moving away from
individual expression of
00:11:06.90\00:11:10.04
conscious into a very complex.
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You're right and
when you say truth I think
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about Jesus Christ,
he said you will know
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truth and the truth
will set you free and I have
00:11:20.74\00:11:25.60
tried to point out
that religious freedom is
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integral to the
proclamation that Christ
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came to give,
it's a freeing message.
00:11:29.89\00:11:32.62
But we are to know the
truth, it's not something
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unknowable or
unclaimable. He says I
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I am the way of
the life and the truth.
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That's correct and
I think it is highly
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significant that
John, you know he sees the
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first angel flying in
Revelation and scripture
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says that that angel is
bringing the everlasting
00:11:52.74\00:11:55.31
Gospel. And we know
that he is bringing it to
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the last
generation. And the everlasting
00:11:58.91\00:12:01.53
Gospel that you bring
to the last generation is
00:12:01.56\00:12:04.21
fear God for the
hour of his judgment is
00:12:04.24\00:12:06.83
come. Present tense, is come.
00:12:06.86\00:12:08.39
That's right, is
come and so I believe that
00:12:08.42\00:12:12.43
keeping, watching
the developments with
00:12:12.46\00:12:16.69
respect to religious
liberty. Talking about
00:12:16.72\00:12:19.27
it with people
and discussing with
00:12:19.30\00:12:22.04
people where a
religious liberty is nationally
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and internationally
is really important part
00:12:24.38\00:12:27.51
of the essential
Gospel but it helps people to
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see where we are
prophetically speaking.
00:12:30.12\00:12:32.35
I agree with it and
from a Seventh-day Adventist
00:12:32.38\00:12:34.37
point of view of
religious liberty,
00:12:34.40\00:12:35.77
I think it is
absolutely inseparable from an
00:12:35.80\00:12:38.40
understanding of the
times that we live in a
00:12:38.43\00:12:40.08
prophetic fulfillment.
We will be back after
00:12:40.11\00:12:43.27
the break and I'll
be discussing with Grace
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a little bit further.
Our current post modern
00:12:46.15\00:12:49.59
or post post-modern society and
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what that means for us.
00:12:52.59\00:12:53.56
100 years, a long
time to do anything much
00:12:53.57\00:13:07.87
less publish a magazine.
But this year liberty the
00:13:07.90\00:13:11.84
Seventh-day
Adventist voice of religious
00:13:11.87\00:13:13.59
freedom, celebrates
100 years of doing what it
00:13:13.62\00:13:17.03
does best, collecting,
analyzing and reporting
00:13:17.06\00:13:20.10
the urban flow of
religious expression
00:13:20.13\00:13:22.33
around the world.
Issue after issue,
00:13:22.36\00:13:25.20
liberty has taken on
the tough assignments.
00:13:25.23\00:13:27.59
Tracking down threats
to religious freedom and
00:13:27.62\00:13:30.44
exposing the work of
the devil in every corner of
00:13:30.47\00:13:33.11
the globe. Governmental
interference, personal
00:13:33.14\00:13:35.80
attacks, corporate
assaults, even religious
00:13:35.83\00:13:38.66
freedom issues
sequestered within the
00:13:38.69\00:13:40.44
church community
itself have been clearly and
00:13:40.47\00:13:42.99
honestly exposed.
Liberty exists for one
00:13:43.02\00:13:46.22
purpose to help God's
people maintain that all
00:13:46.25\00:13:49.64
important separation
of church and state while
00:13:49.67\00:13:52.48
recognizing the
dangers inherent in such a
00:13:52.51\00:13:55.05
struggle. During the
past century liberty has
00:13:55.08\00:13:58.06
experienced challenges
of its own, but it remains
00:13:58.09\00:14:00.63
on the job.
Thanks to the inspired
00:14:00.66\00:14:03.15
leadership of a long
line of dedicated Adventist
00:14:03.18\00:14:05.78
editors. Three of
them represent almost half
00:14:05.81\00:14:08.24
of the
publications existence and the
00:14:08.27\00:14:10.52
foresight of a
little woman from New
00:14:10.55\00:14:12.45
England, 100 years of
struggle, 100 years of
00:14:12.48\00:14:16.75
victories.
Religious freedom isn't
00:14:16.78\00:14:18.78
just about political
machines and cultural
00:14:18.81\00:14:21.20
prejudices, it's about people.
00:14:21.23\00:14:23.60
Fighting for the right
to serve the God they love
00:14:23.63\00:14:26.97
as their hearts and
the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:27.00\00:14:30.22
Thanks to the prayers
and generous support of
00:14:30.25\00:14:32.90
Seventh-day Adventists
everywhere, liberty will
00:14:32.93\00:14:35.67
continue to accomplish
it's work of providing
00:14:35.70\00:14:37.95
timely information,
spirit filled inspiration
00:14:37.98\00:14:40.38
and heaven sent
encouragement to all
00:14:40.41\00:14:43.19
who long to live and
work in a world bound
00:14:43.22\00:14:46.78
together by the God ordained
00:14:46.81\00:14:48.60
bonds of religious freedom.
00:14:48.63\00:14:51.00
Welcome back to
the liberty insider.
00:15:01.56\00:15:02.90
Before the break I
was talking to Grace
00:15:02.93\00:15:04.81
Mackintosh about
post modernism and how the
00:15:04.84\00:15:08.16
changes come with
that negatively effecting
00:15:08.19\00:15:10.56
religious
freedom. I think we're in
00:15:10.59\00:15:12.85
agreement on that and
we trying to bring out some
00:15:12.88\00:15:17.20
of the subtle and
more insidious changes.
00:15:17.23\00:15:19.04
You read a couple of
fantastic quotes earlier
00:15:19.07\00:15:23.46
in the program and I
think you have another
00:15:23.49\00:15:25.37
one that we can
share with out viewers.
00:15:25.40\00:15:28.66
In 1928 Edward Bernays
is the father of public
00:15:28.69\00:15:33.20
relations. This is a little bit
00:15:33.23\00:15:34.84
before post modernism.
It's a little bit before
00:15:34.87\00:15:36.75
and he wrote in his
book propaganda a very
00:15:36.78\00:15:39.69
interesting quote and
I'm gonna share it with you,
00:15:39.72\00:15:42.55
is that the conscious
and intelligent manipulation
00:15:42.58\00:15:44.75
of the organized
habits and opinions of the
00:15:44.78\00:15:47.89
masses is an important
element in a democratic
00:15:47.92\00:15:50.38
society. Those who
manipulate this unseen
00:15:50.41\00:15:53.70
mechanism of society
constitute an invisible
00:15:53.73\00:15:57.17
government which is the
true ruling power in our
00:15:57.20\00:16:00.19
country. And he is
making a reference here
00:16:00.22\00:16:02.59
to the mass mind and
what you do with Middle
00:16:02.62\00:16:05.65
America I suppose. And
most governments if not
00:16:05.68\00:16:10.01
citizens
understand this now. There are
00:16:10.04\00:16:13.97
complaints in the
territorial regime where
00:16:14.00\00:16:16.35
it controls the mass
media, they figured that
00:16:16.38\00:16:19.24
in so doing it
control the thinking of the
00:16:19.27\00:16:21.39
citizenry. And may be
not as directly through as
00:16:21.42\00:16:25.50
we think because
people have spontaneous
00:16:25.53\00:16:26.79
thoughts and then
perhaps a few other sources of
00:16:26.82\00:16:29.32
information, but its
pretty plain in our modern
00:16:29.35\00:16:32.02
world with the
pervasive view of mass
00:16:32.05\00:16:34.22
communication, if you
control its message after
00:16:34.25\00:16:38.45
a while society is
irrevocably changed
00:16:38.48\00:16:41.18
because of that. And
propaganda interesting
00:16:41.21\00:16:43.67
too, you know the
Nazis, I'm glad you didn't pick
00:16:43.70\00:16:46.98
up a Nazi quote,
but Nazis refined that
00:16:47.01\00:16:49.08
absolutely and it
might shock some people to
00:16:49.11\00:16:51.71
know that some of the
political not pundits,
00:16:51.74\00:16:56.73
but I don't wanna
name one of them but you
00:16:56.76\00:16:59.31
know the political
advisers and planners
00:16:59.34\00:17:01.00
of recent times
have been known to read,
00:17:01.03\00:17:06.17
study Goebbels and the
principles of propaganda
00:17:06.20\00:17:10.85
that the Nazis
refined. And maybe they are not
00:17:10.88\00:17:15.04
wrong but its wrong
when they are able to
00:17:15.07\00:17:18.42
manipulate to so
many people for so long.
00:17:18.45\00:17:20.91
I think negative
results come from that.
00:17:20.94\00:17:23.03
I want to read
something of my own.
00:17:23.06\00:17:25.97
Alright, sure. I
was sent an article by
00:17:26.00\00:17:29.68
one of our
religious liberty leaders,
00:17:29.71\00:17:31.14
I don't think its
publishable or maybe
00:17:31.17\00:17:35.03
he didn't expect
it to be published,
00:17:35.06\00:17:36.37
but he was going on
at some length about
00:17:36.40\00:17:39.16
globalism and the
radical shifts in thinking that
00:17:39.19\00:17:44.60
they're accompanying
this move toward a globalist
00:17:44.63\00:17:46.50
world view and I think
in a certain way the post
00:17:46.53\00:17:52.18
modern mindset is
enabling globalism.
00:17:52.21\00:17:54.64
You agree? I
would agree with that.
00:17:54.67\00:17:57.36
It moves directly
toward it. And he quoted
00:17:57.39\00:17:59.78
someone I have to
put my glasses on, I am
00:17:59.81\00:18:03.20
sorry. Notre Dame law
professor Charles E. Rice
00:18:03.23\00:18:07.50
made an interesting
statement about the world
00:18:07.53\00:18:11.54
having to have a
supra-legal arbiter in
00:18:11.57\00:18:15.05
have unity and survival.
And listen to this, but
00:18:15.08\00:18:20.09
there must be
someone, he says outside the
00:18:20.12\00:18:22.35
government and the
people to whom they can
00:18:22.38\00:18:24.91
look for morally
binding interpretations of the
00:18:24.94\00:18:27.83
natural law, since
the natural law is the law
00:18:27.86\00:18:30.93
of God and since
Christ is God, it will be
00:18:30.96\00:18:34.37
appropriate for that
supra-legal arbiter of
00:18:34.40\00:18:37.02
the natural law to
be the vicar of Christ.
00:18:37.05\00:18:39.22
That is the Pope,
an empire is needed in
00:18:39.25\00:18:42.41
this moral sphere and
this has to be the vicar
00:18:42.44\00:18:44.95
of Christ and I
really believe that this
00:18:44.98\00:18:48.45
mindset that we're
part of, this post modern
00:18:48.48\00:18:55.40
mindset in a curious
way has led the way for an
00:18:55.43\00:18:59.57
easy acceptance of that logic.
00:18:59.60\00:19:01.21
And whether or not
I don't know if you
00:19:01.24\00:19:04.14
see the connection
but I think so and he also
00:19:04.17\00:19:06.35
continuous the
quote, where he says the
00:19:06.38\00:19:08.52
objective in short
must be free acceptance by
00:19:08.55\00:19:12.89
the American people.
Free acceptance and you
00:19:12.92\00:19:17.67
know we think we
have freedom and yet more
00:19:17.70\00:19:20.57
and more under
post modernism they are
00:19:20.60\00:19:22.96
really oppressive
overall mindsets being brought
00:19:22.99\00:19:27.49
by the media or by
a conventional wisdom,
00:19:27.52\00:19:31.92
I think the magazine
are always saying that
00:19:31.95\00:19:34.63
while we think we're
individualistic I think
00:19:34.66\00:19:36.73
in some ways group
think is being forced upon
00:19:36.76\00:19:39.07
people. It's definitely the way
00:19:39.10\00:19:41.58
governments have been
set up, it's definitely
00:19:41.61\00:19:43.69
way the law is now
setup. It's very clear in Canada
00:19:43.72\00:19:47.24
and I think it's
coming in the United States
00:19:47.27\00:19:49.89
and I think that this
idea is being promulgated
00:19:49.92\00:19:56.48
in the arts as well.
Well, you are triggering
00:19:56.51\00:20:01.64
by thinking in a lot
of areas and I haven't
00:20:01.67\00:20:04.12
indulged myself as
much as I might of this
00:20:04.15\00:20:06.29
program, but you talk
about the correspondence
00:20:06.32\00:20:09.59
in the arts. I
noticed a long time ago when I
00:20:09.62\00:20:12.88
was, this will date
me. When I was back in my
00:20:12.91\00:20:17.31
college days
and university days,
00:20:17.34\00:20:18.94
I noticed that pretty
much every disciple of
00:20:18.97\00:20:22.54
human behavior
whether it was politics,
00:20:22.57\00:20:24.28
arts or the family
break down or science and so
00:20:24.31\00:20:30.83
on, that all of
them something happened
00:20:30.86\00:20:33.71
around 1968 and in
order to whom might I say on
00:20:33.74\00:20:38.86
this program, particularly what
00:20:38.89\00:20:40.02
happened, but there
was a sea change in every
00:20:40.05\00:20:43.18
discipline and expression
of the human activities
00:20:43.21\00:20:45.72
in the late 60's.
And generally speaking
00:20:45.75\00:20:49.16
the laws, the old assumptions,
00:20:49.19\00:20:51.68
models of behaviors,
rules and regulations
00:20:51.71\00:20:55.05
passed away and we've
moved into a new model,
00:20:55.08\00:21:00.78
a new paradigm.
Well, certainly you've
00:21:00.81\00:21:03.31
open Pandora's Box with
that statement and there
00:21:03.34\00:21:07.12
is a lot of things
that happened I think,
00:21:07.15\00:21:08.98
you said 1968, you
saw the change and then
00:21:09.01\00:21:13.15
in throughout the 70s
I think there was a lot
00:21:13.18\00:21:15.71
of changes
socially. Well, actually,
00:21:15.74\00:21:17.03
I'm sorry, the
actual year was 1966.
00:21:17.06\00:21:19.57
'66. But in that shifts '66,
00:21:19.60\00:21:24.05
'68, an incredible
change and as I say I think
00:21:24.08\00:21:28.87
you can argue about
what precipitated it,
00:21:28.90\00:21:31.46
but there is no nice
saying in the reality
00:21:31.49\00:21:34.72
something happened
and most people know in
00:21:34.75\00:21:37.70
the world in general
but they haven't really I
00:21:37.73\00:21:40.92
think brought out
what you just noted.
00:21:40.95\00:21:42.78
That's in every
discipline, whether it's
00:21:42.81\00:21:45.09
that's when music lost
its form, that's when you
00:21:45.12\00:21:48.38
have had, I am trying
to think of some of the
00:21:48.41\00:21:52.97
composes where
they'll play a few notes
00:21:53.00\00:21:54.96
backwards and there was
even one recording of 30
00:21:54.99\00:21:58.54
minutes of silence, you
know just bizarre stuff,
00:21:58.57\00:22:00.96
but everything was
out of the window and the
00:22:00.99\00:22:04.64
same enough that's
when I've lost this form of
00:22:04.67\00:22:07.78
just splashes of color
on a Canvas, and I think its
00:22:07.81\00:22:12.71
less significant
what happened in the up,
00:22:12.74\00:22:14.38
but reflective of
a mindset change in
00:22:14.41\00:22:17.85
humanity in general,
they have threw out the
00:22:17.88\00:22:20.18
rules. I would agree with that.
00:22:20.21\00:22:23.34
My understanding is that
there is an Exodus out of
00:22:23.37\00:22:27.65
the church and there
was a disillusionment,
00:22:27.68\00:22:30.36
you know with the
church that's why people left
00:22:30.39\00:22:34.00
and then there was
a disillusionment with
00:22:34.03\00:22:35.52
what was out there and
then the mindset and the
00:22:35.55\00:22:39.74
whole culture of
this type of thinking,
00:22:39.77\00:22:42.07
mutual seeking relativity
and then moved back into
00:22:42.10\00:22:45.66
the church during the 1970's.
00:22:45.69\00:22:47.29
That's true and then
I remember that very,
00:22:47.32\00:22:49.87
very well, it seemed
to me that people were
00:22:49.90\00:22:52.56
approaching their,
this was only from the
00:22:52.59\00:22:57.17
Seventh-day
Adventist church that I can
00:22:57.20\00:22:58.27
comment on this,
the context of this.
00:22:58.30\00:23:00.02
But they were
approaching it from
00:23:00.05\00:23:01.55
this post modern
idea that they didn't want
00:23:01.58\00:23:05.17
absolutes that felt
restricted by religion
00:23:05.20\00:23:07.48
and you know they
sort of manufactured a
00:23:07.51\00:23:11.01
reality that I don't
think existend but that
00:23:11.04\00:23:12.79
they were under
a repressive system
00:23:12.82\00:23:14.15
in the past.
Now we didn't expect
00:23:14.18\00:23:16.76
absolutes, you would not
accept the authority of a
00:23:16.79\00:23:20.13
prophet, you
questioned every text and
00:23:20.16\00:23:24.05
interpretation of
the past and you wouldn't
00:23:24.08\00:23:28.21
reject your identity
because that was fine
00:23:28.24\00:23:30.41
you're comfortable
of being an Adventist,
00:23:30.44\00:23:31.79
but you would now
define it in a very generalized
00:23:31.82\00:23:35.91
way and I used to say
it was sort of I'm okay,
00:23:35.94\00:23:38.22
you are okay. God
loves you, you kno w
00:23:38.25\00:23:41.29
hallelujah your
brother, and to a point that's
00:23:41.32\00:23:45.27
nice to have someone
have the excitement in
00:23:45.30\00:23:47.36
serving God but since
its stripped away all the
00:23:47.39\00:23:49.95
absolutes the net
effect was people or a people
00:23:49.98\00:23:53.57
adrift I think. And
you know that of course can
00:23:53.60\00:23:58.57
be said about the
whole post modern world.
00:23:58.60\00:24:00.48
It's a drift, but how
tragic when people that
00:24:00.51\00:24:03.31
should have a faith
and the security in that
00:24:03.34\00:24:05.01
faith they're also
drifting with the world.
00:24:05.04\00:24:07.18
One day thoughts that
I have that I think is
00:24:07.21\00:24:12.02
quite relevant in
the context of this
00:24:12.05\00:24:14.36
discussion is the
message that was given to
00:24:14.39\00:24:17.61
Israel during Jesus
life. And they were able to
00:24:17.64\00:24:23.51
reject the savior of
this world because they had
00:24:23.54\00:24:26.60
consistently
rejected truth and one the
00:24:26.63\00:24:31.38
messages that I
think is really powerful to
00:24:31.41\00:24:33.85
Christians,
whether they're liberal
00:24:33.88\00:24:35.25
Christians, or
conservative Christians
00:24:35.28\00:24:37.30
or whatever you are,
is that to consistently
00:24:37.33\00:24:41.78
reject a light that's
come to you or a truth
00:24:41.81\00:24:44.79
that's come to you is
to consistently continue
00:24:44.82\00:24:47.94
to harden your heart
to the point where you
00:24:47.97\00:24:50.15
aren't going to be
able to accept the truth.
00:24:50.18\00:24:52.45
That's true. Yeah,
we're definitely dealing with
00:24:52.48\00:24:56.08
serious issues when we
speak about the effects
00:24:56.11\00:24:58.58
of post modernism
on the world but in
00:24:58.61\00:25:00.40
on people's faith
particulars and I am
00:25:00.43\00:25:05.13
certain and I know
you would agree but when
00:25:05.16\00:25:07.30
we're talking
about religious liberty,
00:25:07.33\00:25:08.37
its not a freedom
out there for somebody
00:25:08.40\00:25:10.97
else its only valid
if I have serious faith
00:25:11.00\00:25:15.39
particulars that I
want to protect and project.
00:25:15.42\00:25:19.09
Without a faith
distinctive, what's the
00:25:19.12\00:25:22.04
point. I agree.
00:25:22.07\00:25:23.78
And so there's a lot
at stake in this and we
00:25:23.81\00:25:27.72
can't blame
outside forces for removing
00:25:27.75\00:25:31.05
our sense of being distinctive.
00:25:31.08\00:25:33.71
We need to
examine ourselves always
00:25:33.74\00:25:37.16
I think in the
context of Adventist.
00:25:37.19\00:25:39.12
How, why are we a
Seventh-day Adventist.
00:25:39.15\00:25:42.33
You know is there
a prophetic basis or
00:25:42.36\00:25:45.57
religious sort of
people who read the Bible and
00:25:45.60\00:25:47.78
feel comfortable with
it and want that protected.
00:25:47.81\00:25:49.56
But if we're
proclaiming something
00:25:49.59\00:25:51.64
and you referred to
the three angels messages,
00:25:51.67\00:25:53.91
you know the hour
of judgment has come.
00:25:53.94\00:25:57.10
He is condemning
false worship because that's
00:25:57.13\00:25:59.93
what the second
angel is and then warning
00:25:59.96\00:26:02.40
against the
people that take on this
00:26:02.43\00:26:04.51
characteristic.
Right, yes, I agree
00:26:04.54\00:26:07.63
and I think the
message. And you could almost
00:26:07.66\00:26:09.47
say that the third
angel is a post modern
00:26:09.50\00:26:11.32
warning, isn't it?
It's the post modern
00:26:11.35\00:26:13.25
warning. Yes. My
thoughts are that we
00:26:13.28\00:26:17.81
really have just as
you outlined a duty to
00:26:17.84\00:26:20.34
examine self and we
really have a duty to
00:26:20.37\00:26:26.69
decide why we
believe what we believe.
00:26:26.72\00:26:29.40
And to believe in
something that's worth
00:26:29.43\00:26:33.72
living for, but
something that would
00:26:33.75\00:26:35.55
be worth dying for.
00:26:35.58\00:26:36.87
There is a very
famous opera written by a
00:26:40.33\00:26:43.41
composer named
Barita and in it he has the
00:26:43.44\00:26:47.24
devil holding up a
globe of the world and
00:26:47.27\00:26:50.36
he sings here is the
world. That always puts
00:26:50.39\00:26:53.86
me to mind of what
the Bible says in a modern
00:26:53.89\00:26:57.11
translation quoting
Paul it says don't let the
00:26:57.14\00:27:00.70
world squeeze
you into it's mold.
00:27:00.73\00:27:03.27
You know Satan
thinks that he has us in his
00:27:03.30\00:27:07.28
hand they can
manipulate the world,
00:27:07.31\00:27:09.19
and in many ways
post modernist world views
00:27:09.22\00:27:13.67
are really just a
reinvention of group
00:27:13.70\00:27:17.48
think in a way of
controlling unthinking
00:27:17.51\00:27:19.91
people. We live in a
world that has really
00:27:19.94\00:27:24.06
left of all of the
old norms and absolutes
00:27:24.09\00:27:26.43
behind, that is
ready to forget God,
00:27:26.46\00:27:29.22
claim he is dead,
and reinvent ourselves as
00:27:29.25\00:27:32.83
God and while
many peoples think post
00:27:32.86\00:27:35.28
modernism itself is
a, an old word in realty
00:27:35.31\00:27:38.84
it's describing not
only a new reality but an
00:27:38.87\00:27:42.19
old falsehood. We
need to look to God
00:27:42.22\00:27:45.12
his absolutes and our
absolute obligation to
00:27:45.15\00:27:49.43
obey him no matter
what, no matter what culture
00:27:49.46\00:27:52.51
thinks, no matter
what society says.
00:27:52.54\00:27:54.48
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:27:54.51\00:27:58.10