Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the
program that brings you
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up to date news,
views, information, discussion
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and really just the
latest breaking information
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on religious liberty
events around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest on the program
is Attorney Grace Mackintosh.
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Welcome back to the program,
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you're an old hand
on Liberty Insider now
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and I want to pull you
out more on some of the issues
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that you've been familiar with,
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particularly in Canada.
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I want to put an image
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in our viewer's
minds of prom night.
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I never went to a prom night.
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Back in high
school, I can remember
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Valentine's banquet
and things like that,
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and the preparation
that I had who would I invite
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and trying to
impress the girl and so on.
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I think it's an image that
some people can identify with
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and there's rights of passage
that we've all been through,
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but what about
this image? Prom night.
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Well-- A young man turns up
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with his date another young man,
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I don't know, how a school back
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when I was young
would have related to that?
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I think it would have
been shocked first of all,
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I'm sure that have
been something done.
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It wouldn't have flown,
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but in Canada
recently that's what happened
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and what happened
is a result of that.
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Well this is one of
the cases that hasn't
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turned out so well,
so we had a success,
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you know, in the case
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I talked about
earlier Steven was on.
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In an earlier
program. In an earlier program.
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But this case has
not turned on so well.
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The courts
compelled a Catholic school
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to allow a gay
teen, his name is Mark
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and his date to attend the prom
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and somehow the Catholic school
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had found out prior to the prom
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that this young man
was going to bring his date
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and that ended up in
court and these two young man
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ended up going to
the prom together.
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Now, you know,
on the face of it,
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Canadian law you can
say, yeah they've rights,
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so how can you inhibit them.
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But it seems to me
a church institution,
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the whole reason
it exists is to foster
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a certain spiritual viewpoint
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and lifestyle
consistent with that.
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And if a religious institution
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can't structure it that way,
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then what's the
purpose of such an institution.
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Well it's the
way legal arguments
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have been set
up and it's the way
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the court has been interpreting
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human rights
laws and the charter.
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So we've created these groups
and sometimes they compete.
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So it was
religious liberty versus
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the right to equal treatment
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and equal benefit before the law
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and protection
of same sex rights
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and expression
of that as a group.
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And the court says,
that if one of the groups
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in the two comparative groups
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has been
historically marginalized,
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then this provides
them more protection
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than the other group
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bringing this
argument before the court.
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And my understanding is
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that's how the
Catholics will watch--
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Well, I guess
speaking ceaselessly
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allowed enough time
and we can prove that
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religion has been
historically marginalized
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and it will
gain back its rights.
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But you know, I'm
put to mind of a quote,
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well, I never
better build up to it.
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I grew up believing
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that there would be
some great conflict of faith,
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particularly in
the western countries,
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in the United States,
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where we would sort of rise up
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and stand on our principles
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and take the punishment
and we particularly thought
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this would be a Sunday law
and then the Lord would come.
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I'm more and more
seeing this illustrates
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that it's really
enabling away at the rights
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and prerogatives and
even the self respect
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of the ability to just stand up
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and practices of Christian.
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These things are muddying,
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what it is in
society to have a faith
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and I think the net
effect if we're not careful
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is that there will
be very little to defend
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when that great crisis does come
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and the quote
that comes to my mind,
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you know, the idea
that the world will end
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with a bang but it
may end with a whimper.
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And I think that this
is certainly under cutting,
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both the church
and the individual
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Christians ability to function
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and indeed have an identity.
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Definitely I agree with you,
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I do think that
there will be a point where
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there will be critical mass
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with respect to
our loss of freedoms
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and it will be easy to bring
in some kind of legislation
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that legislates an ideology.
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And people will be so
conditioned to this idea
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that it will be
accepted by in large.
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And I think that's
also why we're a giving
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mandate scripturally as well as
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in the spirit of
prophecy to extend our freedoms
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and our religious
liberty conjuncts.
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We're when in a sense
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we're fighting
against the inevitable,
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but we're told from
the Bible and Ellen White
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speaking to
Seventh-day Adventists
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made it clear that
we're to fight to hold back
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even the inevitable,
because in holding it back
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we have further
opportunity to proclaim
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and share and redeem the time.
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This is true and
it's extremely important
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that we would support
those individuals who represent
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the matters in the courts
and before the legislatures.
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And sometimes
we do well in court
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and sometimes not so well.
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Another example, in
Canada, again in Ontario,
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there were
applicant adoptive parents
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and they turned
away by a social agency
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because their gender
rules were too narrow.
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He was a minister
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and she was a stay at home wife
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and of course the social agency
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extrapolated from
that there would be issues
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with respect to homosexuality--
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I think it's what's going there,
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they made an assumption
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that was prejudicial in itself,
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that this meant that
they had Christian values
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and certain biblical viewpoints
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that they would
find objectionable.
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That is amazing,
that what would be seen
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as the traditional
family not that everyone's
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ever been ministers,
but still an old time value
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stay at home mom, that was once
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the model that society
felt most comfortable with,
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that's been so marginalized
that, that's a liability.
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It reminds me that the
Catholic adoption agencies
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in the United
States have really been
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saying very publicly
lately, that they may have
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to seize separation
because they're being
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told the same sort of
thing over and over again.
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That they can't
determine the homes
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they place the young people in,
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that they're being
told the moral values
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that you stand for
really don't stand anymore.
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And at one level
it's very bizarre to me
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that there was the pre-scandal
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and so on that
continues to cast a huge shadow
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over the Roman Catholic Church.
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But in its public
statements in adoption
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and abortion and so on,
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I think the
Roman Catholic churches
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held out a very good
model and they're a monolithic,
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large organization
and they're in retreating,
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some ways under attack.
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So I don't know how
we stand against of it,
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but I know we have
to. Don't you agree?
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We need to speak out
as Christians. I agree.
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Have to stand on
our rights or claim
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that we have higher
rights than a corrupt society
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is willing to
grant in this regard.
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I agree that we should
be speaking out and I think
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that we should be speaking out
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always within the
context of sharing the gospel.
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And I think for those people
who are members of the church
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and they're not in a court
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or a courtroom or
in the legislature.
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There maybe some
questions with respect
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to how to interact with people,
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and one of the best
things I think you can do
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as a member of the church is
to remember to ask questions.
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Ask a lot of
questions about the person
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that you're speaking with,
where are they coming from,
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what's their ideology,
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why might they support same sex
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or not have a position on it,
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before we start
to state our position
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and have that voice.
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Always within the
context of sharing the gospel
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and redemption as people.
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Well, so it's a very complex
personal thing as always,
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and obviously, we're called
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to exemplify Christ in our life,
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we're not really
called to be ideologues
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that attack and hammer
down any contrary view.
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But I think particularly
church organizations
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as they structurally advance
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that are very vulnerable
to these sort of changes.
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They are and some of the things
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that are happening as you said,
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you couldn't picture
them happening 20 years ago.
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For example, we have
the three parent case,
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again in Ontario,
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in which the
Ontario Court of Appeal
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ruled that judges in
Ontario have the jurisdiction
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to declare more than two persons
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to be legal parents.
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It's a first time in history,
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you know, that a child has had
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more than two
parents under the law.
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Yeah, this is quite separate
from the usual custody cases,
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I mean, you can have the divorce
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and then the new set of parents
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and the original
father that has some rights,
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that's quite
separate from this, isn't it?
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This is just
three current parents.
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That's right, so nobody
has to give up parental rights.
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The biological
parents don't have to give up
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their parental rights
in order for other parents
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to be appointed by the
courts as legal, legally.
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Yeah, we're rapidly
heading into a moral vacuum,
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I think in many
ways in this society.
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I think it begs the question,
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how faraway are we
from multiple spouses.
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And in Canada,
British Columbia courts
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are going to be looking at
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the
constitutionality of polygamy
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and understand
that's been an issue
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not in the courts
in the United States,
00:10:45.32\00:10:47.77
but certainly in the news.
00:10:47.78\00:10:49.23
Well, Utah still with that,
00:10:51.26\00:10:53.59
but I don't think the U.S
is getting close this at all.
00:10:54.98\00:10:58.14
But I have heard discussions
00:10:58.15\00:11:01.06
where once you allow
homosexuality in some of the,
00:11:01.07\00:11:04.35
you know, man believer
club and all that sort of stuff.
00:11:07.03\00:11:10.20
It does open up
discussions on polygamy,
00:11:10.21\00:11:13.33
because next to
these other things
00:11:13.34\00:11:15.10
polygamy seems a very benign
variation on human sexuality,
00:11:15.11\00:11:20.55
I think and if you're inclined
00:11:20.56\00:11:22.66
you can even go
to the Bible and say,
00:11:22.67\00:11:24.05
well, it's here, it's fine.
00:11:24.06\00:11:25.44
Islam they allow several wives,
00:11:25.45\00:11:30.31
but we need to
be careful I think,
00:11:30.32\00:11:33.41
be interested in your feedback
00:11:33.42\00:11:34.88
that we don't sort of run ahead
00:11:34.89\00:11:37.76
of our mandate as Christians,
00:11:37.77\00:11:40.54
we're to spirit
Seventh-day Adventists,
00:11:40.55\00:11:43.20
we're to warn people
that God's judgment is coming.
00:11:43.21\00:11:46.18
We have to call people
back to the law of God,
00:11:46.19\00:11:48.50
we're to exemplify
moral behavior in our life.
00:11:48.51\00:11:51.52
But I don't think
it's necessary for us
00:11:51.53\00:11:54.02
each individually to split pairs
00:11:54.03\00:11:56.64
on some of these social issues
00:11:56.65\00:12:00.28
that maybe more
divisive than illuminating.
00:12:00.29\00:12:04.99
I would agree. I'm
speaking part of it,
00:12:05.00\00:12:06.53
but I want to say which is a--
00:12:06.54\00:12:08.43
I would agree with that,
00:12:08.44\00:12:09.91
you know, with respect to
very sensitive social issues,
00:12:11.82\00:12:18.30
we do want to speak
up, but again always asking
00:12:18.31\00:12:25.26
where the other
person is, lots of questions.
00:12:25.27\00:12:28.80
Maybe, you know,
I've heard this statement,
00:12:28.81\00:12:35.83
'share your faith, use
words if you have to.' Yeah.
00:12:35.84\00:12:38.91
And I think that
it's really profound
00:12:38.92\00:12:41.84
in some ways and
it's important to remember
00:12:41.85\00:12:44.47
because we can
get very aggressive
00:12:44.48\00:12:46.65
when we're
talking about these issues
00:12:46.66\00:12:48.90
and come across in a way
that's not Christian at all.
00:12:48.91\00:12:52.64
You're right
Grace, it's very important
00:12:52.65\00:12:55.09
that we live as
Christians in a way
00:12:55.10\00:12:58.10
that Christ would have us live.
00:12:58.11\00:12:59.73
We'll be back after the break
00:12:59.74\00:13:00.93
and discuss this issue further.
00:13:00.94\00:13:02.50
One-hundred years, a
long time to do anything
00:13:11.02\00:13:14.83
much less publish a magazine,
00:13:14.84\00:13:16.84
but this year, Liberty,
00:13:16.85\00:13:18.73
the Seventh-day Adventist
voice of religious freedom,
00:13:18.74\00:13:21.51
celebrates one hundred years
of doing what it does best,
00:13:21.52\00:13:25.08
collecting,
analyzing, and reporting the ebb
00:13:25.09\00:13:28.19
and flow of religious
expression around the world.
00:13:28.20\00:13:31.33
Issue after
issue, Liberty has taken
00:13:31.34\00:13:33.94
on the tough assignments,
00:13:33.95\00:13:35.51
tracking down
threats to religious freedom
00:13:35.52\00:13:37.42
and exposing the
work of the devil
00:13:37.43\00:13:39.04
in every corner of the globe.
00:13:39.05\00:13:41.33
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:41.34\00:13:44.04
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom issues
00:13:44.05\00:13:46.61
sequestered within the
Church community itself
00:13:46.62\00:13:48.99
have been clearly
and honestly exposed.
00:13:49.00\00:13:52.07
Liberty exists for one purpose,
00:13:52.08\00:13:54.38
to help God's people
00:13:54.39\00:13:55.71
maintain that all important
00:13:55.72\00:13:57.52
separation of Church and State,
00:13:57.53\00:13:59.46
while recognizing the dangers
inherent in such a struggle.
00:13:59.47\00:14:03.49
During the past century,
00:14:03.50\00:14:04.76
Liberty has experienced
challenges of its own,
00:14:04.77\00:14:07.29
but it remains on the job.
00:14:07.30\00:14:09.58
Thanks to the
inspired leadership
00:14:09.59\00:14:11.21
of a long line of dedicated
00:14:11.22\00:14:12.77
Adventist Editors,
three of whom represent
00:14:12.78\00:14:14.74
almost half of the
publications existence
00:14:14.75\00:14:17.39
and the
foresight of a little woman
00:14:17.40\00:14:19.38
from New England.
00:14:19.39\00:14:20.66
One hundred years of struggle,
00:14:20.67\00:14:22.81
one hundred years of victories,
00:14:22.82\00:14:24.99
religious freedom isn't
just about political machines
00:14:25.00\00:14:27.94
and cultural prejudices.
00:14:27.95\00:14:29.70
It's about people fighting
00:14:29.71\00:14:31.93
for the right to serve the God
00:14:31.94\00:14:33.67
they love as their hearts
and the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:33.68\00:14:37.98
Thanks to the
prayers and generous support
00:14:37.99\00:14:39.97
of Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere,
00:14:39.98\00:14:42.43
Liberty will
continue to accomplish
00:14:42.44\00:14:44.32
its work of
providing timely information,
00:14:44.33\00:14:46.48
spirit filled inspiration,
00:14:46.49\00:14:48.12
and heaven sent
encouragement to all
00:14:48.13\00:14:50.61
who long to live and
work in a world bound together
00:14:50.62\00:14:54.65
by the God ordained
bonds of religious freedom.
00:14:54.66\00:14:58.40
Welcome back to our discussion
00:15:09.97\00:15:11.59
on the Liberty Insider.
00:15:11.60\00:15:13.20
Before the break, I was
talking to Grace Mackintosh
00:15:13.21\00:15:17.42
about this
developing construct in Canada
00:15:17.43\00:15:21.77
where people of
faith, the church
00:15:21.78\00:15:23.67
and the individuals
are finding more and more
00:15:23.68\00:15:26.24
that their basic biblical views
00:15:26.25\00:15:28.05
are out of harmony
not just with society
00:15:28.06\00:15:30.47
but the way that the
law sees those rights.
00:15:30.48\00:15:32.95
Are they righteous?
00:15:32.96\00:15:33.99
So that, and the net
effect that don't you agree,
00:15:34.00\00:15:36.62
can easily be that
we sort of shrink back
00:15:36.63\00:15:38.51
and where we can hardly speak
00:15:38.52\00:15:40.03
or act according
to our principles.
00:15:40.04\00:15:42.49
That's true and
it's, it's interesting
00:15:42.50\00:15:46.87
because we live in
a pluralistic society
00:15:46.88\00:15:49.15
and in a pluralistic society
00:15:49.16\00:15:50.75
I think the goal of government
00:15:50.76\00:15:52.08
should be to protect the rights,
00:15:52.09\00:15:54.82
and especially
freedom of expression
00:15:54.83\00:15:56.70
and expression your conscience.
00:15:56.71\00:15:58.45
Freedom of conscience for
all people to maximize that
00:15:58.46\00:16:02.52
as much as possible
and the least restrictive
00:16:02.53\00:16:06.02
amount of
policies or legislation.
00:16:06.03\00:16:09.59
Well, that's, I'm
sorry to interrupt,
00:16:09.60\00:16:11.39
that's a very good
liberal view of government
00:16:11.40\00:16:13.30
that you advanced.
00:16:13.31\00:16:14.41
That I think is the ideal
but that's not historically
00:16:14.42\00:16:17.19
how governments saw themselves.
00:16:17.20\00:16:18.52
Correct, but
that's the arguments
00:16:20.10\00:16:22.15
that we're making in the courts.
00:16:22.16\00:16:24.18
And for example,
it's the argument
00:16:24.19\00:16:26.61
that will be making to the
00:16:26.62\00:16:27.81
Saskatchewan
Court of Appeal in May
00:16:27.82\00:16:30.82
and the Saskatchewan
Court of Appeal in May
00:16:30.83\00:16:33.06
will be looking at a question
00:16:33.07\00:16:36.00
that's been
presented to the court
00:16:36.01\00:16:37.93
and the question has to
deal with marriage commissioners
00:16:37.94\00:16:41.31
and there is a history to this.
00:16:41.32\00:16:43.86
There have been
marriage commissioners
00:16:43.87\00:16:46.04
who refused to
marry same sex couples,
00:16:46.05\00:16:48.92
because of the
principle of religious
00:16:48.93\00:16:51.10
or moral sincerely held belief.
00:16:51.11\00:16:54.73
And its worked its ways through
00:16:54.74\00:16:56.46
human rights commissions
and through the courts
00:16:56.47\00:16:58.32
and finally there is
been a question posited
00:16:58.33\00:17:00.87
to the Court of
Appeal in Saskatchewan
00:17:00.88\00:17:03.11
and there's two draft
pieces of legislation.
00:17:03.12\00:17:06.72
So, one draft
piece of legislation
00:17:06.73\00:17:09.17
that sets out a
religious exemption
00:17:09.18\00:17:11.55
from marriage
commissioners who were appointed
00:17:11.56\00:17:14.64
before the Supreme
Court of Canada decided that.
00:17:14.65\00:17:17.80
As these are marriage commission
00:17:17.81\00:17:18.85
is not minister of religion.
00:17:18.86\00:17:20.62
That's correct,
marriage commissioners,
00:17:20.63\00:17:22.32
but marriage commissioners
tend to be retired ministers.
00:17:22.33\00:17:26.05
You know they tend to be older,
00:17:26.06\00:17:27.38
they're retired,
and there is a list.
00:17:27.39\00:17:30.64
You know over a hundred.
00:17:30.65\00:17:32.08
But these be, like
marriage celebrants,
00:17:32.09\00:17:34.94
civil celebrants
in the United States
00:17:34.95\00:17:36.80
would that equivalent.
00:17:36.81\00:17:38.47
That would be the
equivalent, I'm thinking.
00:17:38.48\00:17:41.14
And so, the one
piece of legislation,
00:17:41.15\00:17:45.00
the draft proposal is
that any marriage commissioner
00:17:45.01\00:17:49.13
appointed before the
Supreme Court of Canada
00:17:49.14\00:17:51.41
decided that same sex
marriage is constitutional.
00:17:51.42\00:17:54.98
They may exercise
their freedom of religion
00:17:54.99\00:17:57.87
and they have a
religious exemption.
00:17:57.88\00:17:59.67
Anybody after, either
you know has to choose
00:17:59.68\00:18:03.03
between working as a
marriage commissioner
00:18:03.04\00:18:05.82
or if they wanted
to keep their faith,
00:18:05.83\00:18:08.32
then they wouldn't
take an appointment--
00:18:08.33\00:18:10.54
It would what seems
to me, if that's accepted
00:18:10.55\00:18:12.65
it's decided there's
not a moral principle there,
00:18:12.66\00:18:14.78
it's a matter of state authority
00:18:14.79\00:18:16.25
to mandate a new act.
00:18:16.26\00:18:17.24
It's definitely,
conscience is out of court
00:18:17.25\00:18:20.38
is basically a benefit
00:18:20.39\00:18:21.56
a favor provided to this group.
00:18:21.57\00:18:23.57
And this is what
I'm saying our model
00:18:23.58\00:18:25.67
our views that you and I,
00:18:25.68\00:18:26.91
I think share is an assumption
00:18:26.92\00:18:29.83
of liberal democracy
that is to allow expression
00:18:29.84\00:18:34.36
and rights and so on.
00:18:34.37\00:18:35.74
That's not
historically how governments
00:18:35.75\00:18:38.14
through the
ages have functioned.
00:18:38.15\00:18:39.38
Whether they're
representing the King or
00:18:39.39\00:18:41.68
a dictatorship
whatever, it was the idea
00:18:43.00\00:18:45.14
to enforce the
mandate of ruling class,
00:18:45.15\00:18:48.00
or the ruling
elite or the ruler.
00:18:48.01\00:18:51.98
It's a relatively
modern construct that the state
00:18:51.99\00:18:54.69
is there to allow
you to freely express
00:18:54.70\00:18:57.91
and to sort of
flower as an individual.
00:18:57.92\00:19:00.98
That's right, it's nascent
00:19:00.99\00:19:02.07
and it's emerged
out of the thinking,
00:19:02.08\00:19:03.88
you know, from the reformation
00:19:03.89\00:19:05.04
and we see it,
00:19:05.05\00:19:06.08
and that's the constitution
of the United States.
00:19:06.09\00:19:08.00
And there is a
certain irony that is,
00:19:08.01\00:19:10.27
is religion is
losing it's power,
00:19:10.28\00:19:12.45
what is seen as the
civil liberal concept
00:19:12.46\00:19:15.82
I think it's shrinking.
00:19:15.83\00:19:17.81
And yes, if you look
at very superficially,
00:19:17.82\00:19:21.54
gay rights and all
the risk would seem
00:19:21.55\00:19:22.91
like rights out of control
00:19:22.92\00:19:24.65
but I think to get
back to literature before,
00:19:24.66\00:19:26.71
but rather a
strange piece of literature.
00:19:26.72\00:19:28.81
I think we're back
to what George Orwell
00:19:28.82\00:19:31.24
wrote in the animal farm,
that all animals are equal
00:19:31.25\00:19:34.29
but some animals are more equal.
00:19:34.30\00:19:35.81
Yeah, yeah there is.
00:19:35.82\00:19:36.81
We're not heading for equality,
00:19:36.82\00:19:38.27
this is the
tyranny of certain ideas
00:19:38.28\00:19:40.58
that are being
advanced in a democratic system
00:19:40.59\00:19:45.53
but they're
really not democratic.
00:19:45.54\00:19:47.32
Oh I agree, it's a necessary
00:19:47.33\00:19:48.72
conclusion of
post modern thinking,
00:19:48.73\00:19:51.04
relativity, all
truths are relative.
00:19:51.05\00:19:54.05
I mean, you end up
with competing truths
00:19:54.06\00:19:56.96
and then you end up with the
loudest voice, you know, wins.
00:19:56.97\00:20:00.93
And so that's one
element that comes out
00:20:00.94\00:20:05.25
of this Saskatchewan reference.
00:20:05.26\00:20:06.93
There is another
draft piece of legislation
00:20:06.94\00:20:10.04
which grants a
religious exemption
00:20:10.05\00:20:11.70
to all appointed
marriage commissioners.
00:20:11.71\00:20:14.60
And the question
that the court is asking
00:20:14.61\00:20:16.48
is this
inconsistent with the charter.
00:20:16.49\00:20:18.80
And of course you have
a group that is same sex
00:20:18.81\00:20:24.00
and they're
making the argument that
00:20:24.01\00:20:25.69
our feelings are hurt.
00:20:25.70\00:20:27.82
It's a civil service
and we should be able to go
00:20:27.83\00:20:34.24
to a marriage commissioner,
who is a civil servant
00:20:34.25\00:20:37.70
and not expect any
kind of discrimination.
00:20:37.71\00:20:40.95
Incredible. Do you think
00:20:40.96\00:20:42.78
that this is about
to bleed through onto
00:20:42.79\00:20:46.18
Adventist and other Christian
ministers performing weddings?
00:20:46.72\00:20:52.63
Is that right
under any question?
00:20:52.64\00:20:55.06
If the court
comes to the decision
00:20:55.07\00:20:57.57
to accept the draft legislation
00:20:57.58\00:21:00.37
that confines in
other religious exemption
00:21:00.38\00:21:04.26
to a small group
it's not a right at all,
00:21:04.27\00:21:07.05
then really to me
it's a favor of the state.
00:21:07.06\00:21:10.21
I don't see very much
longer before there will be
00:21:10.22\00:21:14.84
an attack on ministers
of the class and churches
00:21:14.85\00:21:20.41
and whole Christian
organization identity.
00:21:20.42\00:21:23.47
And so our
arguments are very cohesive,
00:21:23.48\00:21:28.88
first of all, we're saying
00:21:28.89\00:21:29.96
there is no
impact on the individuals
00:21:29.97\00:21:33.12
because they can go to
other marriage commissioners.
00:21:33.13\00:21:37.10
It's not like they're
being denied the benefit
00:21:37.11\00:21:39.07
of being able to be married,
and you know, we're arguing
00:21:39.08\00:21:43.27
or presenting
evidence before the court
00:21:43.28\00:21:45.18
that as individuals we should
be able to recluse ourselves
00:21:45.19\00:21:49.14
from situations that
violate our conscience
00:21:49.15\00:21:53.45
and just like
somebody who decides not be
00:21:53.46\00:21:57.42
a Seventh-day Adventist.
00:21:57.43\00:21:58.71
You know, it might offend me
00:21:58.72\00:21:59.78
but there is no
violation of any right.
00:21:59.79\00:22:02.17
So we're towing that in,
00:22:02.18\00:22:03.60
and then these
marriage commissioners are
00:22:03.61\00:22:07.83
much like judges
who recluse themselves,
00:22:07.84\00:22:10.64
when they think
that they maybe biased.
00:22:10.65\00:22:13.15
Or the overcome, you know,
00:22:13.16\00:22:14.23
there's some
kind of relationship
00:22:14.24\00:22:16.60
to either the
issue, parties would be--
00:22:16.61\00:22:18.93
So you believe that they'll be
00:22:18.94\00:22:20.06
allowed to opt out certain--
00:22:20.07\00:22:23.00
I think the court is
going to look positively
00:22:23.01\00:22:26.75
on the arguments
before and I believe that.
00:22:26.76\00:22:28.79
That would be probably
00:22:28.80\00:22:29.77
the best scenario wouldn't it.
00:22:29.78\00:22:31.20
It would, I
think one of the most
00:22:31.21\00:22:33.27
profound examples of
the individual exercise
00:22:33.28\00:22:36.14
of conscience is
the King of Belgium.
00:22:36.15\00:22:38.24
In 1990, there was a
liberalization of abortion
00:22:38.25\00:22:42.62
in the country and
it's going to be legalized,
00:22:42.63\00:22:45.71
and the country at that
time allowed the King of Belgium
00:22:45.72\00:22:49.78
to resign as the
head of that nation
00:22:49.79\00:22:54.13
and he was suspended
as head of that state.
00:22:54.14\00:22:57.70
During the time that the
vote went on to liberalize
00:22:57.71\00:23:00.29
the abortion
and he stepped back,
00:23:00.30\00:23:02.57
hit those issues
when the vote was done.
00:23:02.58\00:23:05.43
And I think
marriage commissioners
00:23:05.44\00:23:10.45
that there is a parallel there.
00:23:10.46\00:23:12.06
Let me throw in a wildcard,
00:23:14.41\00:23:16.37
as we're
discussing for our audience.
00:23:16.38\00:23:19.24
Is it possible that the poison
00:23:19.25\00:23:22.79
pill on this whole dynamic
00:23:22.80\00:23:24.88
is that ministers of
religion performing marriages?
00:23:24.89\00:23:29.66
Narrowly speaking,
shouldn't need authorization
00:23:29.67\00:23:32.51
from state to perform that?
00:23:32.52\00:23:34.70
Is that a marriage
because a minister performs
00:23:34.71\00:23:37.63
and invokes
God's blessing on it,
00:23:37.64\00:23:39.81
in the context of
the church structure?
00:23:39.82\00:23:42.25
Is that a marriage
or is it only a marriage
00:23:42.26\00:23:44.62
if he has the ticket authorizing
00:23:44.63\00:23:46.16
on behalf of the
state to perform them?
00:23:46.17\00:23:50.77
Well, my comment
on that goes back to,
00:23:50.78\00:23:54.47
in 2004 when the
Supreme Court of Canada,
00:23:54.48\00:23:57.18
constitutional
same sex marriage,
00:23:57.19\00:23:58.93
there was discussion
00:23:58.94\00:24:00.06
between various
ministers of various states.
00:24:00.07\00:24:03.49
And they all agreed that
00:24:03.50\00:24:04.83
if they came to being compelled
00:24:04.84\00:24:08.09
against their
conscience to marry individuals
00:24:08.10\00:24:10.40
that are same sex,
00:24:10.41\00:24:11.61
they would just hand in
their licenses at same time.
00:24:11.62\00:24:15.12
I didn't know
that they decided that,
00:24:15.13\00:24:16.93
in my view
that's really probably
00:24:16.94\00:24:18.64
what it should come
toward at some point.
00:24:18.65\00:24:21.30
Because, short of outright
00:24:21.31\00:24:23.78
direct persecution
of religious practice,
00:24:23.79\00:24:26.23
the state cannot stop
in religious meetings,
00:24:26.24\00:24:30.99
marriages being
solemnized by a minister
00:24:31.00\00:24:33.75
and the state itself
for hundreds of years
00:24:33.76\00:24:36.74
has recognized
common law of marriage.
00:24:36.75\00:24:38.31
So the mere fact that,
00:24:38.32\00:24:39.87
they're now they
operate as husband
00:24:39.88\00:24:42.68
and wife gives them
00:24:42.69\00:24:43.86
eventually certain
legal rights anyhow.
00:24:43.87\00:24:46.51
So it seems to be
that the church could exist
00:24:46.52\00:24:48.54
quite apart from having
and performing marriages,
00:24:48.55\00:24:51.40
quite apart from whether or not
00:24:51.41\00:24:52.62
its ministers are
authorized by the state
00:24:52.63\00:24:54.81
to perform such ceremony.
00:24:54.82\00:24:56.70
I think the concern should,
00:24:56.71\00:24:59.72
the thinking or the case
law shift in that direction
00:24:59.73\00:25:04.08
is that it won't stop
00:25:04.09\00:25:05.99
at the
licenses, the concern is--
00:25:06.00\00:25:07.35
No, I think it's going further.
00:25:07.36\00:25:09.67
And you're right,
I think it's going
00:25:09.68\00:25:10.73
beyond the ministers,
00:25:10.74\00:25:11.71
now at
compelling the organization,
00:25:11.72\00:25:13.91
the church in all of
its many facets of operation
00:25:13.92\00:25:16.48
to come in agreement with these,
00:25:16.49\00:25:19.44
these viewpoints
that are more of,
00:25:19.45\00:25:23.33
many of them from
the church positions.
00:25:23.34\00:25:24.96
The death of a thousand cuts.
00:25:24.97\00:25:26.90
Yes and we'll pass the first
few two or three cuts our way.
00:25:26.91\00:25:31.47
Well, we'll pass those
and so there is a gray concern
00:25:31.48\00:25:35.79
on the part of the church that
00:25:35.80\00:25:38.51
because of post modernism
and that line of thinking,
00:25:38.52\00:25:43.10
relativism, there
will be a movement away
00:25:43.11\00:25:45.97
from any kind of exclusivity.
00:25:45.98\00:25:47.94
Which of course
organizations and in particular,
00:25:47.95\00:25:50.71
Christian organizations
00:25:50.72\00:25:52.03
function on the
concept of exclusivity.
00:25:52.04\00:25:55.77
You know, Jesus said
when the Son of Man comes,
00:25:56.99\00:25:59.63
will he find faith on the earth.
00:25:59.64\00:26:01.61
And that's always been
00:26:01.62\00:26:02.67
a problematic statement to me.
00:26:02.68\00:26:04.15
Obviously you and I've
to relate to ourselves,
00:26:06.63\00:26:08.79
we need to be
living as Christians
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and exemplify in that.
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But when we talk about
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religious liberty
and where we're heading.
00:26:13.87\00:26:15.43
I think it's very problematic,
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we can see that as
Matthew Arnold said,
00:26:16.63\00:26:19.77
'the sea of faith is receding.'
00:26:19.78\00:26:22.01
And that's more
problematic to me
00:26:22.02\00:26:23.52
that societies
overall views have changed.
00:26:23.53\00:26:27.12
It's fairly observed that
earth is facing a deep crisis.
00:26:27.13\00:26:30.99
We look to our
leaders for direction
00:26:31.00\00:26:33.33
but we've been disappointed
00:26:33.34\00:26:34.63
by many bright
stars that have gone out
00:26:34.64\00:26:36.86
due to lack of
integrity and morality,
00:26:36.87\00:26:39.63
but there are still
those who stand in the gaps.
00:26:39.64\00:26:43.34
Our influence on our needs
00:26:43.35\00:26:45.18
and our conversation with
others is of tremendous value
00:26:45.19\00:26:49.21
and much more so
in a united effort.
00:26:49.22\00:26:51.36
The reformation
certainly separated
00:26:53.26\00:26:55.89
the dissident churches from
a controlling mother church.
00:26:55.90\00:27:00.69
But it really wasn't
until the French Revolution
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that the power of the church
over the state was broken,
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is the certain irony that today
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in the debate
over new lifestyles,
00:27:12.70\00:27:15.37
moral choices,
many people of faith
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seem willing in
the United States
00:27:18.60\00:27:21.61
to use the power of
state to support them.
00:27:21.62\00:27:24.57
There's a certain
irony that even in Canada,
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where secularism
has the upper hand,
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that religious prerogatives
00:27:31.65\00:27:33.95
are being
restricted by the state.
00:27:33.96\00:27:36.60
It should be a
clear understanding
00:27:38.69\00:27:40.98
as Jesus said, of
the role of the state
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and the role of God's
claims on human beings.
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We should not allow the state
00:27:48.37\00:27:50.09
to determine what a religious
convention like marriage is.
00:27:50.10\00:27:56.63
We should not allow the
state to say to a church
00:27:56.64\00:28:00.35
you must hire
or not able to fire
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such and such a person.
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We must keep God and his
fear, and see that contents.
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For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
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