Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
that brings you up to date
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news, views, information and
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discussion on
religious liberty issues from
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around the world
including particularly
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the United States and Canada.
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My name is Lincoln
Steed, Editor of Liberty
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Magazine and my
guest on the program is
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Attorney Grace
MacKintosh. Welcome Grace.
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Thank you. You are
from Canada, right.
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I particularly
mentioned United States and
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Canada, because
you are from Canada.
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That's right. And
your job which I need to
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introduce is you
have recently, relatively
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recently taken up the position
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in the Seventh-day
Adventist Church of
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Director of Public
Affairs in Religious
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Liberty for the
Canadian Union which
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is all of Canada.
That's correct, and prior
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to that I have
spent several years in law
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working at constitutional
matters, but before that
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human rights and I
actually been employed
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in human rights.
Good, so you really know
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your stuff and
bring those skills into
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defending religious
liberty in particular the
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rights of Adventist
and others who might find
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that they are restricted
sometime in expressing
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their religious
views. Now I have a lot of
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dealings with
Liberty Magazine and your
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predecessor Barry
Bussey who now works
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at our world
headquarters in Washington, DC.
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I had lot of experience
with him in commenting
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on and he was resisting
even some of the efforts
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or some of the legal
changes in Canada that
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are more and more
tended to restrict the
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ability of Christians
to speak out about some of
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their faith particulars,
in particular views on
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morality and
things like homosexuality,
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is that getting better or worse?
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That's a good
question and in some ways it's
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getting worst and in
some ways it's getting
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better and Barry
appeared before the
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Supreme Court of
Canada on the marriage
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references you know,
and he represented the
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Church very well. And
we appreciate his work.
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Since then, there has
been a lot of litigation
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in the courts with
respect to the decision
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that Supreme Court
came to which is that
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the same-sex marriage is
constitutional in Canada.
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And then they left it to
the several jurisdictions
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which we refer to as
provinces to, equivalent
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to state certainly
not a state, to deal with
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solemnization
and at this time the
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Seventh-day
Adventist Church in Canada is
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appearing as an
intervener and a matter
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that's before the
Saskatchewan Court of
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Appeal right now
had dealing with the
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solemnization of
marriage in Saskatchewan.
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So things are moving ahead.
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Now, just to set the
back drop, I come from
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Australia which is
not dissimilar system of
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Government in
Canada, but there are always
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differences, and
certainly very different from
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United States and
its Republican structure.
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There is no
direct equivalent to the
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constitution of the
United States as the,
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like I'll put it in another way.
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The charter that I
hear mention all the time,
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how long ago was
that adopted? 1982.
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Not too long ago. So
the basic constitutional
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or bedrock legal
supports freedoms and
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rights and so on. It
tells me that these things
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are a little bit
influx in Canada.
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This is not I fix point
of references that tends to
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be in the United
States even though reality
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might change, you are
always hacking back to
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that point. In
Canada, you have sort of moved
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the baseline
with you, haven't you?
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Yes, in Canada we
are a little bit ahead of
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dealing with some of
the social issues that the
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United States is
facing right now for example,
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how old the
United States deal with
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same-sex
marriage, and rumbling so as
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respect to restrictions
on freedom of expression.
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The Charter has
provided protection for
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various groups, but the
result of that of course
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is the legal constructive
equity before the law
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and so the groups and
in court over different
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issues, sometimes it
service to the public,
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sometimes its
legislation and there is these
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comparative groups
and they are competing
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it seems in many situations.
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So it's really open the door
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for a lot of
litigation. And also Canada has
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under its human
rights laws restrictions on
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freedom of expression,
but we are not really
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supposed to
restrict political speech in
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Canada, but at sometimes
in one of the cases I'm
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going to be
speaking about today as some
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people do get into a
legal process because of
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things they set in
the political setting.
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Well talking
about speech in Canada,
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well not speech but
freedom of expression
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in Canada, if I
read something in the
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newspaper or
hear a politician say
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something or some
public official say
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something that I find
offensive can I just dash
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off a letter to the
editor and rant a rival or even
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if it's come, can I
throw in a Bible text or two
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and say this is my
view, I think this is wrong
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editor, I am out, is
that perfectly allowed in
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Canada or will it
get me into trouble?
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It could get you
into trouble and there are
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laws that are still in
the legislation that could
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create a great deal
of trouble and in fact a
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gentleman who is a
youth Pastor Stephen
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Boisson did that
exactly that, I would said give
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up because you
give me a chit cheater,
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I will get rid of that
but its amazing to me that
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somebody could write
a letter and it doesn't
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seem that he was
particular insulting or
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incendiary, he just
stated his position that
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others found objectionable.
Yeah, it was reported
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wasn't it to which
commission was this?
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It was the Alberta Human
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Rights
Commission, Rights Commission.
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What happened was,
Mr Boisson understands
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that the
provincial government provides
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grants to
different entities and Human
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Rights Commission in
Alberta received a grant
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from the province and
that a portion of that
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money was used to
support a group that
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was drafting
curriculum for K312 that was
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promoted homosexuality
and Mr. Boisson was
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alarmed to see that
his tax dollars were being
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used in a way that he
would not have consented to.
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So, he wrote a
letter that was political in
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nature, he basically
said out his views and the
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idea that people
should be organized and if you
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don't want this
curriculum in the school then we
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need to organized
because the other group
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apparently seems to
be very organized and he
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was calling for
like minded people to
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organize
politically. He also gave some
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of his other opinions
and connected his views
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to his religious
believes and there was a
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complaint brought
to the Human Rights
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Commission by an
individual who is not
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homosexual he was
a professor at the
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University of
Calgary, Dr. Lund and he
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launched the next,
Steven Boisson into the
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next seven years
where he was in and out of
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court and he really
did in many ways destroy
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Mr. Boisson's life.
He is no longer youth
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pastor and it was
a very distressful.
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This is something
that's troubled by in the
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United States as well
as same with in Canada.
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It seems to me that
the government often big
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business most times
can literally destroy
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someone's life if they
just choose to litigate
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them with that and
may be it's a bigger issue
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that we could discuss
on religious liberty but
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I see it as a clear
and present danger to any
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individual
expression and autonomy.
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If a larger power,
they if have the money and
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the political power
if they want to they can
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just squash you by
litigating into death,
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they don't have
to be right, do they?
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Correct, and
this is what happened
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with Steve, with Boisson.
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This is what
happened and so that was heard
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by a panel and the Human Rights
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Commission's are
informal venues for
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dealing with legal
issues and so the panel
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of chair was a lawyer
and she wrote a remedy
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against pastor
Boisson in which every single
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remedy was illegal
and she acknowledged that.
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She did? She did, she
knew it wasn't said out
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in legislation that
she didn't have any illegal
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grounds as she asked
for an apology and he
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was not allowed to say
anything to disparaging
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about homosexuals.
She didn't define that.
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He had to pay money
to doctor Lund on another
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legal issue and fortunately,
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so, did they have
some prior contact?
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It's hard to know and
I wouldn't surmise but
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fortunately his lawyer
was willing to appeal it
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and this is a part
that I think is positive in
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Canada is that there is
a small quarter of lawyers
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who are willing to
assist in these types of
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matters and because
he had a lawyer who was
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willing to do that they
did appeal it and justice
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was sent at the
Alberta Court of Queen's Bench
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turned over the
decision and he set out in his
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judgment that every
single remedy had been illegal.
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But not yet the
charging or determining that
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Mr. Boisson gets his money back.
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I mean he is
pretty much at time and
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money for his efforts
to defend himself, right.
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The judgment and
cause has been set down and
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Mr. Boisson has
received his money
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back and there was
money that had to be
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paid by Dr. Lund and
so at least it sends a
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message to would be
complainist to think
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twice before you
bring a complaint otherwise
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you are correct
there is no loss to
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somebody bringing a complaint.
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In Dallas, it does
seem good case even though
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it was horrendous
that he was jealous on the
00:11:04.29\00:11:06.69
spouses it ended
up quite well and they
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have some positive
president, right, that on
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this program I
have quoted before what
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I remember reading
some years ago about a
00:11:15.88\00:11:17.84
judge in Canada gave
an opinion not based on
00:11:17.85\00:11:21.90
any particular case
but just to quote some of
00:11:21.91\00:11:25.06
the Bible texts on
homosexuality would
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be civil defense
that someone could be
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convicted on that
alone and I thought
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that was a
horrendous possibility.
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That was a matter
in Saskatchewan several
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years ago and that
president has not been
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overturned
unfortunately the individual
00:11:41.25\00:11:44.65
did not have lieu over
council who was able to
00:11:46.65\00:11:49.74
appeal the decision
in time and he did have
00:11:49.75\00:11:53.62
legal support but
the time was almost wrong
00:11:53.63\00:11:57.46
so we lost the
window there to appeal that
00:11:57.47\00:12:00.57
matter, but its still
sitting on the books and
00:12:00.58\00:12:02.82
unfortunately the
law that was used against
00:12:03.20\00:12:05.45
Pastor Boisson to subject him to
00:12:05.46\00:12:07.91
expensive and stressful
legal processes for more
00:12:07.92\00:12:10.98
than seven years is
still on the books, so it does
00:12:10.99\00:12:13.22
sound, it has a
chilling effect on Albertans,
00:12:13.23\00:12:16.44
be careful what
you say even if its
00:12:16.85\00:12:18.82
in a political
saying. Well we do need to be
00:12:18.83\00:12:20.99
careful what we say,
what did Jesus says is
00:12:21.00\00:12:23.05
let you just say, Ye
and Nay, yes it's true,
00:12:23.06\00:12:26.75
of course we ought to
speak of our faith and
00:12:27.36\00:12:30.37
on homosexuality.
We need to be careful
00:12:30.38\00:12:32.43
our primary obligation
is to speak of the way to
00:12:32.87\00:12:37.61
live freely towards
Jesus and lives of moral
00:12:37.62\00:12:41.56
you know morally very
careful and responsible
00:12:43.49\00:12:45.85
on the Biblical bases,
we are not really called
00:12:45.86\00:12:48.06
to attack and challenge are we?
00:12:48.07\00:12:49.97
No, we are not called
to attack and challenge.
00:12:50.21\00:12:52.66
Well, we will be back
after the break and lot
00:12:53.17\00:12:55.21
more to discuss on
what's happening in
00:12:55.22\00:12:57.33
Canada and some of
the rights that you
00:12:57.34\00:13:00.52
might think you have that don't
00:13:00.53\00:13:01.91
really exist anymore in Canada.
00:13:01.92\00:13:03.57
One-hundred
years, a long time to do
00:13:11.87\00:13:14.86
anything much less
publish a magazine,
00:13:14.87\00:13:17.28
but this year Liberty,
the Seventh-day Adventist
00:13:17.65\00:13:20.79
voice of religious
freedom, celebrates
00:13:20.80\00:13:22.95
one hundred years of
doing what it does best,
00:13:22.96\00:13:25.65
collecting,
analyzing, and reporting the ebb
00:13:26.02\00:13:29.01
and flow of
religious expression around the
00:13:29.02\00:13:31.23
world, issue after
issue, Liberty has taken on the
00:13:31.24\00:13:35.07
tough assignments,
tracking down threats
00:13:35.08\00:13:37.41
to religious freedom
and exposing the work
00:13:37.42\00:13:39.21
of the devil in
every corner of the globe.
00:13:39.22\00:13:41.62
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:42.14\00:13:44.60
corporate
assaults, even religious
00:13:44.61\00:13:46.81
freedom issues
sequestered within the
00:13:46.82\00:13:48.44
Church community
itself has been clearly
00:13:48.45\00:13:50.80
and honestly exposed.
Liberty exists for one
00:13:50.81\00:13:54.33
purpose to help God's
people maintain that all
00:13:54.34\00:13:57.79
important
separation of Church and State,
00:13:57.80\00:14:00.01
while recognizing
the dangers inherent
00:14:00.32\00:14:02.64
in such a struggle.
During the past century,
00:14:02.65\00:14:05.40
Liberty has experienced
challenges of its own,
00:14:05.58\00:14:07.78
but it remains on the
job. Thanks to the inspired
00:14:08.21\00:14:11.62
leadership of a long
line of dedicated Adventist
00:14:11.63\00:14:13.93
Editors, three of whom
represent almost half of
00:14:13.94\00:14:16.49
the publications
existence and the
00:14:16.50\00:14:18.40
foresight of a little
woman from New England.
00:14:18.41\00:14:20.88
One hundred years of
struggle, one hundred
00:14:21.42\00:14:24.15
years of victories,
religious freedom isn't
00:14:24.16\00:14:26.96
just about political machines
00:14:26.97\00:14:28.76
and cultural
prejudices. It's about people,
00:14:28.77\00:14:31.97
fighting for the right
to serve the God they love
00:14:32.54\00:14:35.20
as their hearts and
the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:35.21\00:14:38.38
Thanks to the prayers
and generous support of
00:14:38.92\00:14:40.96
Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere.
00:14:40.97\00:14:42.87
Liberty will continue
to accomplish its work of
00:14:43.18\00:14:45.63
providing timely
information, spirit-filled
00:14:45.64\00:14:48.13
inspiration, and
heaven sent encouragement to
00:14:48.14\00:14:50.86
all who long to live
and work in a world bound
00:14:50.87\00:14:55.04
together by the God ordained
00:14:55.05\00:14:56.81
bonds of religious freedom.
00:14:56.82\00:14:59.24
Welcome back to our
discussion on Liberty
00:15:08.32\00:15:10.43
Insider, before the
break I was talking to
00:15:10.44\00:15:13.60
Grace MacKintosh
about this developing
00:15:14.16\00:15:18.11
construct in Canada
where people of faith,
00:15:18.98\00:15:21.30
the Church and the
individuals are finding
00:15:21.60\00:15:23.42
more and more that
their basic biblical
00:15:23.43\00:15:26.09
views are out of
harmony not just with
00:15:26.10\00:15:28.19
society but the way that
the law sees those rights
00:15:28.20\00:15:31.10
or the right to say
that and the net effect that
00:15:31.24\00:15:34.46
you agree can easily
be that we sort of shrink
00:15:34.47\00:15:36.51
back and we can hardly speak or
00:15:36.52\00:15:38.46
act according to our principles.
00:15:38.47\00:15:40.10
That's true, and its
interesting because we
00:15:40.83\00:15:45.59
live in a
pluralistic society and in a
00:15:45.60\00:15:47.75
pluralistic society
I think the goal of the
00:15:47.76\00:15:49.89
government should be
to protect the rights and
00:15:49.90\00:15:53.36
especially
freedom of expression and
00:15:53.37\00:15:55.34
especially
consent, freedom of consents
00:15:55.35\00:15:57.76
for all people to
as maximize as much as
00:15:58.13\00:16:01.28
possible and the
least restrictive among
00:16:01.29\00:16:04.74
policies or legislature,
well that's, I am sorry to
00:16:06.91\00:16:09.33
interrupt but that's
a very good liberal view
00:16:09.34\00:16:11.16
of government that you
advised that I think is
00:16:11.17\00:16:13.61
the ideal but that's
not historically you have
00:16:13.62\00:16:15.63
government show
themselves, correct but
00:16:15.64\00:16:19.54
there's the argument
that we are making in
00:16:19.71\00:16:21.39
the courts and
for example it's the
00:16:21.40\00:16:24.56
argument that we
will be making to the
00:16:24.57\00:16:26.05
Saskatchewan Court
of Appeal in May and
00:16:26.06\00:16:29.40
Saskatchewan Court
of Appeal in May will be
00:16:29.88\00:16:31.71
looking at a question
that's being presented
00:16:31.72\00:16:35.08
to the court and the
question has a deal with
00:16:35.09\00:16:37.75
marriage commissioners
and there is a history to
00:16:37.76\00:16:40.63
this and there
have been marriage
00:16:40.64\00:16:43.19
commissioners
who refused to marry
00:16:43.20\00:16:45.37
same-sex couples
because of the principal
00:16:45.38\00:16:48.70
and religious or
moral sincerely held belief
00:16:48.71\00:16:52.33
and to work its
way through human right
00:16:53.09\00:16:55.31
commissions and
through the courts
00:16:55.32\00:16:56.73
and finally there has
been a question posited
00:16:56.74\00:16:59.10
to the Court of
Appeal in Saskatchewan and
00:16:59.11\00:17:01.51
there is two draft
pieces of legislation.
00:17:01.52\00:17:04.17
So one draft piece of
legislation sets out a
00:17:05.03\00:17:08.32
religious
exemption from marriage
00:17:08.33\00:17:10.39
commissioners who
were appointed before
00:17:10.40\00:17:13.71
the Supreme Court
of Canada decided that,
00:17:13.72\00:17:16.19
these are
marriage commissioners not
00:17:16.20\00:17:17.60
ministers of religion,
that's correct marriage
00:17:17.61\00:17:20.12
commissioners but
marriage commissioners
00:17:20.13\00:17:21.61
tend to be retired ministers.
00:17:21.62\00:17:23.91
You know they tend
to be older, they are
00:17:24.41\00:17:25.91
retired and there
is a list you know over
00:17:25.92\00:17:29.59
hundred, but these be
like marriage celebrates
00:17:29.60\00:17:32.90
civil servants in
the United States would
00:17:32.91\00:17:35.17
that be
equivalent? They would be
00:17:35.18\00:17:37.22
equivalent I am
thinking. So one of piece of
00:17:37.23\00:17:42.61
legislation the
draft proposal is that any
00:17:42.62\00:17:46.63
marriage commissioner
appointed before the
00:17:46.64\00:17:48.63
Supreme Court of
Canada decided that
00:17:48.64\00:17:51.07
same-sex marriage is
constitutional they may
00:17:51.08\00:17:53.80
exercise their
freedom of religion and they
00:17:53.81\00:17:56.53
have their
religious exemption, anybody
00:17:56.54\00:17:58.44
after either you
know has they choose
00:17:58.45\00:18:01.33
between working as a
marriage commissioner
00:18:01.34\00:18:03.30
or if they want to
keep their faith then they
00:18:04.07\00:18:06.89
wouldn't take an appointment.
00:18:06.90\00:18:08.47
Somebody is saying to
me if that's accepted it's
00:18:08.48\00:18:11.16
decided this is not
a moral principal there
00:18:11.17\00:18:13.00
it's a matter of state authority
00:18:13.01\00:18:14.65
to mandate the
act. It's definitely
00:18:14.66\00:18:16.46
consciousness out
of court is basically a
00:18:16.83\00:18:19.44
benefit a favor provided
to this group, and this is
00:18:19.45\00:18:22.26
what I am saying how
modern you and I think
00:18:22.27\00:18:25.64
should is a assumption
of a liberal democracy
00:18:25.65\00:18:30.23
that is to allow
expression and rights
00:18:30.83\00:18:33.20
and so on that's
not historically have
00:18:33.21\00:18:35.65
governments through
the ages of function
00:18:36.04\00:18:37.68
whether they are
representing the king or
00:18:37.69\00:18:39.63
a dictatorship or
whatever it was the
00:18:41.29\00:18:43.02
idea to enforce the
mandate of the ruling
00:18:43.03\00:18:45.39
class or the
ruling elite or the ruler,
00:18:45.40\00:18:49.20
it's a relatively
modern construct that the state
00:18:50.33\00:18:52.92
is there to allow you
to freely express and to
00:18:52.93\00:18:56.70
sort of flower an individual.
00:18:57.87\00:18:59.43
That's right,
its nascent and its
00:18:59.44\00:19:00.84
emerged out of
the thinking from the
00:19:00.85\00:19:02.73
reformation, alright
that's the connection
00:19:02.74\00:19:05.22
of one of the
might, and there is certain
00:19:05.23\00:19:07.52
I relate that is
religion is losing its power
00:19:07.53\00:19:10.35
what I seen as a civil
liberal concept I think
00:19:10.80\00:19:14.52
it is shrinking and
yes if you look at a very
00:19:14.53\00:19:18.58
superficially Gay
riots and all, you would see
00:19:18.59\00:19:21.28
riots out of control,
but I think get back to
00:19:21.29\00:19:24.11
literature before but
rather strides piece of
00:19:24.12\00:19:26.36
literature, I
think we are back to what
00:19:26.37\00:19:28.87
George Orwell
right in the Animal Farm
00:19:28.88\00:19:30.66
that are all
animals are equal but some
00:19:31.32\00:19:33.02
animals are more
equal. We are not heading
00:19:33.03\00:19:35.98
for a quality. This
is the tyranny of certain
00:19:35.99\00:19:37.99
the ideas that
are being advanced in
00:19:38.00\00:19:40.87
a democratic system but they
00:19:42.73\00:19:44.16
are really not democratic.
00:19:44.17\00:19:45.44
Well I agree it's a
necessary conclusion
00:19:45.68\00:19:47.46
of post modern
thinking, but relativity,
00:19:47.47\00:19:50.26
all truths are
relative. I mean you end up
00:19:51.20\00:19:53.84
with competing
truths and you end up with a
00:19:54.17\00:19:56.37
loudest voice,
you know, winds and so
00:19:56.38\00:20:00.12
that's when element
that comes out of this
00:20:00.99\00:20:03.90
Saskatchewan
reference, there is some another
00:20:03.91\00:20:05.91
draft pieces legislation
which grants religious
00:20:05.92\00:20:09.42
exemption to all
appointed marriage
00:20:09.43\00:20:11.77
commissioners and
the question that the
00:20:11.78\00:20:13.86
court is asking is
this in consistent with
00:20:13.87\00:20:16.04
charter and of
course you have a group that
00:20:16.05\00:20:19.66
is as same-sex
and you are making the
00:20:20.54\00:20:22.92
argument that our
feelings are hurt,
00:20:22.93\00:20:25.43
and it's a civil
service and we should be able
00:20:26.20\00:20:29.77
to go to a
marriage commissioner who is
00:20:29.78\00:20:34.82
a civil servant
and not expect any
00:20:34.83\00:20:37.41
kind of discrimination.
00:20:37.42\00:20:38.58
Incredible! Do you
think that this is about
00:20:39.40\00:20:42.00
to lead through on
to Adventists about the
00:20:42.71\00:20:45.93
Christian ministers
performing weddings?
00:20:45.94\00:20:50.74
I think; is that that
right under any question?
00:20:51.00\00:20:53.27
If the court comes to
the decision to accept
00:20:53.60\00:20:56.60
the draft legislation
that confines in other
00:20:56.61\00:21:01.05
religious exemption
to a small group its not
00:21:01.06\00:21:04.44
right at all then
really to me it's a
00:21:04.45\00:21:06.81
favor on the state.
I don't see very much
00:21:06.82\00:21:11.13
longer before there
will be an attack on
00:21:11.14\00:21:14.59
ministers of the
cloth and Churches and the
00:21:15.46\00:21:18.92
whole Christian
organization identity,
00:21:18.93\00:21:21.24
and so our
arguments are very cohesive,
00:21:21.95\00:21:26.72
first of all we
are saying there is no
00:21:27.23\00:21:28.67
impact on the
individuals because
00:21:29.72\00:21:31.97
they can go to other
marriage commissioners.
00:21:31.98\00:21:35.29
Its not like they
are being denied the
00:21:35.44\00:21:36.90
benefit of being
able to be married and you
00:21:36.91\00:21:40.22
know, we are arguing
or presenting evidence
00:21:40.23\00:21:42.63
before the court
that as individuals we
00:21:42.64\00:21:45.40
should be able
to recluse ourselves
00:21:45.41\00:21:47.39
from situations that
violate our conscience
00:21:47.40\00:21:51.15
and just like somebody who
00:21:51.73\00:21:54.13
decides not to be a
Seventh-day Adventist.
00:21:54.14\00:21:56.72
You don't might
offend me but there is
00:21:57.17\00:21:58.36
no violation of any
right. Right! So we are
00:21:58.37\00:22:00.98
trying that and these
marriage commissioners
00:22:00.99\00:22:06.03
are much like judges who rescue
00:22:06.04\00:22:07.74
themselves when they
think that they may be
00:22:07.75\00:22:10.06
biased but the outcome you know
00:22:10.07\00:22:12.50
there is some kind of
relationship to either
00:22:12.51\00:22:15.29
the issue of the
parties, so you believe
00:22:15.30\00:22:17.90
that they will be allowed
to opt that to a certain.
00:22:17.91\00:22:21.19
I think the
court is going to look
00:22:21.20\00:22:23.22
positively on
the arguments before
00:22:24.23\00:22:26.38
I believe, that
would be probably the best
00:22:26.39\00:22:28.48
scenario wouldn't
that. It would I think one
00:22:28.49\00:22:31.19
of the most
profound examples of the
00:22:31.20\00:22:33.28
individual exercise
of conscience, is the
00:22:33.29\00:22:35.28
king of Belgium.
In 1990, there was
00:22:35.29\00:22:38.17
a liberalization
of abortion in the
00:22:38.18\00:22:41.15
country and its
going to be the liberalize
00:22:41.16\00:22:43.95
and the country at
that time allowed the King
00:22:43.96\00:22:47.10
of Belgium to
resign as a head of that
00:22:47.11\00:22:51.55
nation and he was
suspended as a head
00:22:51.56\00:22:54.78
of that state, during
the time that the vote
00:22:54.79\00:22:57.26
went on to liberalize
abortion and he had to
00:22:57.27\00:23:00.03
step back into those
issues, when the vote
00:23:00.04\00:23:02.68
was done, and I think marriage
00:23:02.69\00:23:06.37
commissioners, but
there is a parallel there.
00:23:06.81\00:23:10.43
Let me throw
away the wild card as
00:23:12.63\00:23:14.78
discussing for our audience,
00:23:14.79\00:23:16.42
is it possible that
the poison pill on this
00:23:17.48\00:23:21.74
whole dynamic is
that ministers of religion
00:23:21.75\00:23:24.70
performing
marriages, narrowly speaking
00:23:24.71\00:23:28.72
shouldn't need
authorization from the
00:23:28.73\00:23:31.12
state to perform
that. Is it a marriage
00:23:31.13\00:23:33.92
because a
minister performs it and
00:23:34.54\00:23:36.08
invokes God's
blessing on it in the
00:23:36.09\00:23:38.34
context of the
Church structure, is that a
00:23:38.35\00:23:40.91
marriage or is it
only a marriage if he has
00:23:40.92\00:23:43.43
the ticket
authorizing it on behalf
00:23:43.44\00:23:44.98
of the state to performing?
00:23:44.99\00:23:48.25
Well, my comment on
that goes back to 2004
00:23:49.10\00:23:53.82
when the Supreme Court of Canada
00:23:53.83\00:23:55.34
constitutionalized
same-sex marriage there was a
00:23:55.35\00:23:57.69
discussion between
various ministers of
00:23:57.70\00:24:00.82
various states and
they all agreed that if
00:24:00.83\00:24:03.24
they came to
being compelled against
00:24:03.25\00:24:06.62
their conscience to
marry individuals that
00:24:06.63\00:24:08.91
are same-sex they
would just all hand in
00:24:08.92\00:24:11.46
their licenses at same time.
00:24:11.47\00:24:13.22
I didn't know
that they decided that.
00:24:13.41\00:24:15.05
In my view that's
really probably what
00:24:15.19\00:24:17.12
it should come to
at some point because
00:24:17.13\00:24:19.91
short of outright
direct prosecution of
00:24:21.31\00:24:23.39
religious practice,
the state cannot stop in
00:24:23.40\00:24:27.16
religious
meetings, marriages being
00:24:27.17\00:24:29.96
solemnized by
minister and the state itself
00:24:29.97\00:24:33.07
refer hundreds of
years have recognized
00:24:33.94\00:24:35.79
common law marriages and the
00:24:35.80\00:24:36.88
mere fact that
they operate as husband
00:24:36.89\00:24:41.00
and wife gives
them eventually certain
00:24:41.01\00:24:43.20
legal rights anyhow.
So it seems to me that
00:24:43.21\00:24:45.89
the Church could
exist quite apart from
00:24:45.90\00:24:47.64
having in
performing or just quite apart
00:24:47.65\00:24:50.20
from whether or
not its ministers are
00:24:50.21\00:24:51.61
authorized by the state
to perform such ceremonies.
00:24:51.62\00:24:54.50
I think the concern I
should thinking or the
00:24:55.03\00:24:59.90
case law shift in
that direction is that it
00:24:59.91\00:25:02.73
won't stop at the licenses.
No I think it's getting
00:25:02.74\00:25:06.92
further and you are
right, I think it's going
00:25:06.93\00:25:09.07
beyond the
ministers now compelling the
00:25:09.08\00:25:10.87
organization, the
Church and all of its
00:25:10.88\00:25:13.39
many facets of
operations to come in
00:25:13.40\00:25:16.60
agreement with
these new points that are
00:25:16.61\00:25:19.88
removed we need that
from the Church position.
00:25:20.43\00:25:23.17
The death of a thousand cuts,
00:25:23.32\00:25:24.73
yes and we will pass
the first two or three
00:25:25.31\00:25:28.61
cuts, aren't we. Well
we will pass those and
00:25:28.62\00:25:31.42
so there is a great
concern on the part of
00:25:31.43\00:25:34.61
Church that because
of the postmodernism
00:25:34.62\00:25:38.64
and that line of
thinking, relativism
00:25:38.65\00:25:42.32
there will be a
movement away from
00:25:42.64\00:25:44.43
any kind of
exclusivity, which of course
00:25:44.44\00:25:46.78
organizations and
in particular Christian
00:25:46.79\00:25:49.32
organizations function on
the concept of exclusivity.
00:25:49.33\00:25:53.96
You know, Jesus
said when the Son of Man
00:25:55.29\00:25:57.57
comes, will He
find faith on the earth?
00:25:57.58\00:25:59.63
Yes, and that's
always been a problematic
00:25:59.64\00:26:01.55
statement to me.
Obviously, you and
00:26:01.56\00:26:05.59
I have to
relate it to ourselves.
00:26:05.60\00:26:07.02
We need to be
living as Christians and
00:26:07.03\00:26:09.67
exemplifying that
but when we're talking
00:26:09.68\00:26:11.97
about religious
liberty and where we are
00:26:11.98\00:26:13.41
heading I think
its very problematic we
00:26:13.42\00:26:15.03
can see that as
Matthew Arnold said
00:26:15.04\00:26:18.02
that sea of faith
is receding and that's
00:26:18.03\00:26:20.68
more problematic
to me that societies
00:26:20.69\00:26:22.90
overall views have changed.
00:26:22.91\00:26:24.60
It's fairly observed that
00:26:25.50\00:26:26.88
Earth is facing a deep crisis.
00:26:26.89\00:26:28.91
We look to our
leaders for direction but we
00:26:29.39\00:26:32.05
we have been
disappointed by many
00:26:32.06\00:26:33.61
bright stars that
have gone out due to lack
00:26:33.62\00:26:36.01
of integrity and
morality, but there are
00:26:36.02\00:26:38.45
still those who
stand in the gaps.
00:26:38.46\00:26:40.78
Our influence on
our knees and our
00:26:41.64\00:26:44.14
conversations with others is of
00:26:44.63\00:26:46.51
tremendous value and much
00:26:46.52\00:26:47.95
more so in the united effort.
00:26:47.96\00:26:49.60
The Reformation
certainly separated
00:26:52.44\00:26:54.91
the descendent
Churches from a controlling
00:26:54.92\00:26:57.20
mother Church, but it
really wasn't until the
00:26:58.02\00:27:01.26
French Revolution
that the power of the
00:27:01.27\00:27:04.62
Church over the
state was broken.
00:27:04.63\00:27:06.76
It is certain irony
that today in the debate
00:27:08.90\00:27:12.45
over new
lifestyles, moral choices many
00:27:12.46\00:27:16.26
people of faith seem
willing in the United
00:27:16.27\00:27:19.64
States to use the
power of the state to
00:27:19.65\00:27:23.03
support them. There
is a certain irony that
00:27:23.04\00:27:26.11
even in Canada
where secularism has the
00:27:26.12\00:27:29.62
upper hand that
religious prerogatives
00:27:29.63\00:27:32.99
have been
restricted by the state.
00:27:33.00\00:27:35.48
This should be a
clear understanding as
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Jesus said of the
role of the state and the
00:27:40.28\00:27:43.75
role of God's
claims on human beings
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we should not allow
the state to determine
00:27:47.43\00:27:49.88
what a religious convention like
00:27:50.53\00:27:54.51
marriages, we should
not allow the state to
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say to a Church you
must hire or not able
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to fire such a such
a person. We must keep
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God and his fear
and see there up in His.
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For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
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