Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program that brings
you up-to-date news, views,
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discussion and information
on religious liberty issues.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on the
program is Dr. Bert Beach.
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Welcome Bert.
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For many years, you were head of
the Religious Liberty Department
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for the
Seventh-Day Adventist Church.
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And before that and after
it, great experience in many
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different venues dealing
with religious liberty issues,
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and observing
current religious trends.
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Now there is a big trend that we
are sucked up in all around the
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world now, Islamic
fundamentalism, that is of an
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Islamic nature.
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But I want to discuss with
you that term, "fundamentalism"
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and another term that
often pops up is "extremism. "
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You hear a lot about both of
those and I think often there is
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a disservice done to religion
when they are just banded about
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in the context of terrorism but
they have a meaning that might
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exist apart from that.
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Well, you know the
word "fundamentalism" has
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different meanings.
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Because the word "fundamental"
in itself, if you say something
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is fundamental, it's
basic, it's important, so that's
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not a bad word.
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In fact, fundamentalism emerged
in theology, I think back around
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the early 20th century, maybe
around 1920 years or so when
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some books or booklets
were published supporting
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fundamental Christianity and
people supporting that inerrancy
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of Scripture and
things like that.
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Well, in a certain
way, couldn't you link it
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back to the Reformation? Yeah.
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They were going to
the basics of the Bible,
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you know, sola scriptura.
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And they were undermining the
importance of having fundamental
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basic beliefs and not being too
liberal which was creeping into
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Christianity where a lot
of things would say, "well you
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can't believe Scripture exactly.
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You can't believe the miracles
and all that kind of thing
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because that was somehow
introduced in a way over the
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centuries or over years.
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So that was
fundamentalism in those days.
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Well that type of
fundamentalism is one thing.
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It's theological fundamentalism
in which you have strong, clear
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beliefs regarding Scripture,
regarding theology, regarding
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teachings of the church.
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But today, when the word
"fundamentalism" is being used,
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it is being used in a different
way, generally speaking.
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They use fundamentalism
when they are referring to...
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you used, in your introduction
the word "extremism. "
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Religious extremism.
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People that are extreme.
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But not only extreme regarding
applying things to themselves.
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That's one thing.
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But religious extreming today
is seen as an effort in which
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people try to impose,
even by force, their views on
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everybody else.
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In other words, "I
am right, you are wrong.
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Therefore, I have the right, the
duty even to impose and force
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you to believe what I believe. "
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Yeah, and of course
we can't believe in that.
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It's not only against the
liberal western tradition,
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it's against every
principle of the Bible.
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And I believe any
truly valid holy book.
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Religion is to be a personal,
private matter and free to
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impose it on someone else.
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Even allowing, for example,
in my view, that the Koran has
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a more militant
application of Islam.
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You can find where the
prophet says, "No compulsion in
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religion," and so on.
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Even those times that
the Koran sort of juxtaposes
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force and freedom, it does
so with a recognition that there
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is something wrong
about force, isn't there?
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There is something
really alien about it.
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But we facing the
idea and I think it's not
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Islamic fundamentalist.
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In the U.S., I've seen certain
religionists that sort of have
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the idea that the
country is... you know, this
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is a Christian country.
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Here is the evil secularist
and we're going to, with law or
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whatever necessary, bring
them into line. That's right.
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And that ends up
badly, doesn't it?
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And many countries, if
you look at their legislation,
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sometimes their constitution
starts with, "In the name of God
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In the name of the Holy
Trinity and things of that type.
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It starts in that way.
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Well, the U.S. constitution
starts with "We the people. "
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And, in fact, the word
"God," I think, is not even
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in the constitution.
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Well, is it in the constitution
or the preamble, or the
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Declaration of Independence?
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Nature and Nature's
God is one reference.
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Then some religionists...
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Well that's in the
Declaration of Independence.
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And some religionists trying
to gain religious traction
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Have even seized on the
fact that it says in the year of
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our Lord, which is right
out there with what the supreme
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court calls "ceremonial deism"
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Nothing but a reflection of the
cultural assumptions of the time
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in expressing the year and the
year of our Lord, Anno Domini
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I've noticed in some secular-
inclined textbooks lately
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They have gotten
away from A.D. in Domini
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They use B.C. The current era
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Yes. Or something like
that. C.E., Current Era
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But, you know, that's just
trying to twist the culture to
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your own anti, in
this case, antireligiously.
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But it does worry me, the more I
hear this term "fundamentalism"
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And the more recent
expression I think, "extremism"
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That it's really doing a
disservice to people of deeply
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held personal faith, who would
not cut your throat to force
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your religious viewpoint.
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But do hold a viewpoint
that's not nominal, not passive.
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It's very deeply held in extreme
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Maybe the most
important thing in their life.
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Don't you think, we should be
an extremist but not a fanatic
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Not a dangerous individual
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Not a narrow-minded individual.
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Well, I don't know, I
think the word "extreme"
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I would personally try
to stay away from "extreme"
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I would say "strong
beliefs, basic beliefs,
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strong convictions"
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But the word to say
"extreme convictions"
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I think the word "extreme"
by it's very nature in the
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religious setting has a
kind of pejorative connotation.
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Well, this is what
I want to talk about.
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Words are very
important and words can invoke
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all sorts of things.
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Extremism has changed from
what it once was and been given
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an absolutely negative
connotation because of what we
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are seeing in the world today.
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But as I read in
an editorial recently
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that said there has never yet
been a religion that asked any
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less than total
commitment of its believer.
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Would never call to moderation.
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Well no.
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Never call to a middle road.
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They ask for a full
commitment. That's extremism.
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But yet the extremism is a term
that we're using is clearly bad
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But it feeds back into the
assumptions of anyone that is
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following a faith and it will
tend to rein them in from not
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going into it wholeheartedly
because well I might be
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called an extremist.
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Well, that may be true.
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I mean, people may feel that way
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It has never bothered me.
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I feel that I can be
convinced and I can go my way
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As long as I try to do it
in rational terms in talking to
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people explaining in a
way that they understand.
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And not try to impose
my view on other people
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And also saying
that I'm always right
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And the others are always wrong
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Which is what the
fundamentalist does today.
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You are getting to
where we really need to
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make the distinction.
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It isn't a degree of how
deeply you hold a belief.
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We should be free and most every
religion encourages and even
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compels you to go
into it wholeheartedly.
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But the litmus test should be,
you do not compel other people.
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Exactly. You do not reach
out in violent, or compelling or
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bigoted ways.
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That's extremism.
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Yes, on that level the extremism
that we are perceiving around
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us is very dangerous.
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It's a bad movement and it's not
just confined to any one group.
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We're currently on the global
threat from an extremist violent
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form of Islam but any
religion is capable of that.
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Well, not only
capable, they are doing it.
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You have fundamentalistic
extremist Judaism among
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certain Jews.
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Well, the red heifer,
we could get onto that.
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What's likely to happen if
a certain red heifer pops up.
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Well, you have
extremism among Buddhism even.
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And Buddhism historically has
been a rather freeing, passive
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freedom-loving,
tolerant religion.
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But today there are
segments of Buddhism that
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are not so tolerant.
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I remember some years
ago, I was in Thailand
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And I met with the
Minister of Religious Affairs
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of the government and he pointed
out how tolerant Thailand was
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because they had recognized
four Christian churches
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Not just one, not just
two but we had recognized four
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Christian churches.
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Well when I got back and told
that to somebody in one of our
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churches, they said "Well is our
church included in the four?"
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And I said, "Well yes they are"
Well then everything is okay.
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I said, "No, it's not okay"
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It's not enough to
have your church recognized.
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It should
recognize everyone. Right.
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Because everyone at least
is respectable and acts in
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a legal way. In a,
you know, a fanatic...
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I'm glad you bring this up.
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Let me give a little
diversion here or digression.
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I remember once in a meeting,
we had at our World Headquarters
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with some other
religious activist groups
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One man got up and
gave a glowing report of his
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organization's activities in one
of the ex-servient republics.
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And he came back and he said
"We've got the government to
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grant freedoms to," and he
named three or four religions.
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And he said, "This is great"
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And I took him on because,
I said, you have actually
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played into their hands.
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That was the old communist
system to play one group off
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against another.
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So if they recognize two or
three religions, they will now
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let you safely sit
and enjoy your freedom
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And you will actually impede
the rights of the others to
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get what you have.
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You suddenly are
co-opted by the state.
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It should be all or nothing on
religious freedom it seems to me
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I remember some years ago,
quite a few years ago, probably
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15-20 years ago...
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Time passes, as you get older
you forget how fast it goes.
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I was speaking to, I think, to
the Greek ambassador in the U.S.
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And he pointed out there
is no country that has so much
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religious liberty as Greece.
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Because in Greece, we are sure
every Greek Orthodox believer
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that he can keep his religion.
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And that was to him, a
sign of great religious liberty.
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Of course Greece had a poor
religious liberty when it came
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to even Roman Catholics,
when it came to Adventists,
00:11:36.25\00:11:39.47
when it came to Baptists.
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Certainly for Jehovah Witnesses
and others it was a bad
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situation in Greece.
00:11:43.44\00:11:44.69
It has improved considerably.
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Today, there is more
religious liberty there.
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By the way, I had the great
distinction once of meeting the
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Greek ambassador.
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I parked in his
parking space at the embassy
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And I got summoned into
his presence so that we could
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shuffle the spaces.
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But he treated you
all right didn't he. Yes.
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He was a good diplomat.
00:12:02.62\00:12:04.10
It was a good meeting.
00:12:04.13\00:12:05.89
But, yes, different countries'
ideas of religious freedom
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They can say that they believe
in freedom but it can be very
00:12:09.85\00:12:13.19
truncated
viewpoints. Oh yes, yes.
00:12:13.64\00:12:15.57
And so we need to hold
the view that unless...
00:12:15.60\00:12:18.40
Who was it. There was
some philosopher that said...
00:12:18.43\00:12:20.87
In fact it might be
John Dunne, I think a poem...
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You know, unless
everybody is free, I'm not free.
00:12:23.21\00:12:26.79
We need to see that
on religious freedom.
00:12:26.82\00:12:30.82
Exactly, because if they can
restrict the religious liberty
00:12:30.85\00:12:31.97
of others, they can come
and restrict your religious
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liberty as well.
00:12:36.59\00:12:37.71
So the best religious liberty is
to protect the religious liberty
00:12:37.74\00:12:40.59
of everyone. Exactly.
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Then yours is also protected.
00:12:41.60\00:12:43.21
I think we're on
the right track here.
00:12:43.24\00:12:44.50
And we will be
back after the break
00:12:44.53\00:12:45.88
To discuss a little bit
further on fundamentalism and
00:12:45.91\00:12:48.52
extremism in our world today.
00:12:48.55\00:12:57.49
One hundred years... a long
time to do anything much less
00:12:57.52\00:13:04.01
publish a magazine.
00:13:04.04\00:13:05.86
But this year, "Liberty," the
Seventh-Day Adventist voice of
00:13:05.89\00:13:09.35
religious freedom celebrates 100
years of doing what it does best
00:13:09.38\00:13:13.69
Collecting, analyzing
and reporting the ebenflow of
00:13:13.72\00:13:17.66
religious
expression around the world
00:13:17.69\00:13:19.86
Issue after issue, Liberty has
taken on the tough assignments
00:13:19.89\00:13:24.11
tracking down
threats to religious freedom
00:13:24.14\00:13:26.29
And exposing the
work of the Devil in every
00:13:26.32\00:13:28.57
corner of the globe.
00:13:28.60\00:13:30.15
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:30.18\00:13:32.93
corporate assaults
00:13:32.96\00:13:34.10
Even religious freedom issues
sequestered within the church
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community itself, have been
clearly and honestly exposed.
00:13:36.71\00:13:40.19
Liberty exists for one purpose.
00:13:40.22\00:13:42.91
To help God's people maintain
that all important separation
00:13:42.94\00:13:47.09
of Church and State
00:13:47.12\00:13:48.30
While recognizing the dangers
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00:13:48.33\00:13:51.88
During the past
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00:13:51.91\00:13:54.62
challenges of its own.
00:13:54.65\00:13:56.19
But it remains on the job...
00:13:56.22\00:13:58.18
thanks to the inspired
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00:13:58.21\00:14:01.09
dedicated Adventist editors.
00:14:01.12\00:14:02.81
Three of whom represent
almost half of the publications
00:14:02.84\00:14:05.28
existence and the foresight of
a little woman from New England.
00:14:05.31\00:14:13.81
Religious freedom isn't just
about political machines and
00:14:13.84\00:14:16.91
cultural prejudices.
00:14:16.94\00:14:18.44
It's about people.. fighting for
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00:14:18.47\00:14:22.70
love as their hearts
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00:14:22.73\00:14:26.39
Thanks to the prayers and
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00:14:26.42\00:14:29.76
Adventists everywhere, Liberty
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00:14:29.79\00:14:33.26
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00:14:33.29\00:14:35.58
Spirit-filled inspiration
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00:14:35.61\00:14:38.61
to all who long to live and work
in a world bound together by
00:14:38.64\00:14:43.66
by the God-ordained
bonds of religious freedom.
00:14:43.69\00:14:53.25
Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:14:53.28\00:14:54.92
This is Lincoln Steed
again with my guest, Bert Beach
00:14:54.95\00:14:58.28
And before the break,
Bert, we were talking about
00:14:58.31\00:15:01.76
fundamentalism, extremism
00:15:01.79\00:15:05.15
And really discussing
terminology or definitions
00:15:05.18\00:15:08.99
as much as describing
what is happening around us.
00:15:09.02\00:15:11.96
You threw in another
term that I hadn't heard...
00:15:11.99\00:15:15.60
Something that you observed in
the Roman Catholic Church lately
00:15:15.63\00:15:18.52
I didn't remember it but during
the Second Vatican Council...
00:15:18.55\00:15:21.03
That was probably
before you were born...
00:15:21.06\00:15:25.02
Well, a few years ago.
00:15:25.05\00:15:26.07
In 1965... A
month before I was born?
00:15:26.10\00:15:29.75
I was an observer
there for our church at the
00:15:29.78\00:15:33.52
Second Vatican Council.
00:15:33.55\00:15:35.18
And one of the terms that
appeared at the Council was
00:15:35.21\00:15:37.39
the word "integrism and
integrists"... I've never heard
00:15:37.42\00:15:39.61
that term before.
00:15:39.64\00:15:40.72
Those words were considered
to be those that were opposed to
00:15:40.75\00:15:45.05
most of the progress
that was being undertaken at
00:15:45.08\00:15:48.95
the Second Vatican Council...
00:15:48.98\00:15:50.21
In favor of religious
liberty, in favor of ecumenism,
00:15:50.24\00:15:53.91
in favor of being
more open to the world.
00:15:53.94\00:15:57.03
All these things that were
more in favor of liberty...
00:15:57.06\00:16:00.16
an open church...
they were opposed to it...
00:16:00.19\00:16:02.46
The integrists didn't
want any of that and they were
00:16:02.49\00:16:04.83
called "integrists"
00:16:04.86\00:16:06.16
Well, I could use
another term "recidivist"
00:16:06.19\00:16:07.73
Yeah well, exactly.
00:16:07.76\00:16:09.56
Let me go back.
00:16:09.59\00:16:10.56
Exactly, but these integrists
were really what we would today
00:16:10.57\00:16:15.52
call "fundamentalists"
00:16:15.55\00:16:17.02
They were right.
The others were wrong...
00:16:17.05\00:16:19.52
Our church has been
right all over these years...
00:16:19.55\00:16:22.36
What we did was right.
00:16:22.39\00:16:23.42
The Inquisition
was right and so forth.
00:16:23.45\00:16:25.30
And so they wanted no change.
00:16:25.33\00:16:27.39
But they lost the
Second Vatican Council.
00:16:27.42\00:16:31.34
The Catholic Church made many
00:16:31.37\00:16:33.41
changes... some of them, really,
you might say progressed.
00:16:33.44\00:16:36.02
Can you imagine, after centuries
of persecution to say that...
00:16:36.05\00:16:39.82
Yes, error has no
rights, as we have taught.
00:16:39.85\00:16:45.15
But, the human being has rights.
00:16:45.18\00:16:47.77
Now, those are very
redeeming statements from
00:16:47.80\00:16:50.45
Roman Catholicism.
00:16:50.48\00:16:51.45
Obviously as Seventh-Day
Adventists, we have a historical
00:16:51.48\00:16:55.33
and a prophetic sweep of Rome.
00:16:55.36\00:16:57.53
And until certain doctrinal
points are changed, you know,
00:16:57.56\00:17:01.51
we really can't say that it
has turned from something into
00:17:01.54\00:17:06.30
totally something else.
00:17:06.33\00:17:07.42
But there is no question, we
have to acknowledge that Rome
00:17:07.45\00:17:10.43
particularly at Vatican II, has
clarified itself in a somewhat
00:17:10.46\00:17:15.21
redeeming way.
00:17:15.24\00:17:16.21
And on religious liberty, the
Roman Catholic Church, with a
00:17:16.22\00:17:19.95
spotty history, is
presently talking the talk.
00:17:19.98\00:17:23.30
And I think in some ways,
walking the walk, at least in
00:17:23.33\00:17:25.70
some areas on religious liberty.
00:17:25.73\00:17:27.47
Well, you know, I remember
organizing a religious liberty
00:17:27.50\00:17:31.02
conference of workers of pastors
in England many years ago
00:17:31.05\00:17:35.67
at the time of the
Second Vatican Council.
00:17:35.70\00:17:38.13
In fact, it was just after
the Second Vatican Council.
00:17:38.16\00:17:40.77
I was in the
division office there working.
00:17:40.80\00:17:43.37
I was probably the
secretary of the division.
00:17:43.40\00:17:45.55
That is the Division of the
Seventh-Day Adventist Church.
00:17:45.58\00:17:47.36
That is of the
Seventh-Day Adventist Church.
00:17:47.39\00:17:48.44
In other words, what was
then called the Northern Europe
00:17:48.47\00:17:51.00
West African Division.
00:17:51.03\00:17:52.25
Today they call it the
Trans- European Division.
00:17:52.28\00:17:55.42
And the
territories have slightly been
00:17:55.45\00:17:58.05
changed a little bit.
00:17:58.08\00:17:59.05
Because the African territories
have their own divisions in
00:17:59.06\00:18:02.17
Africa now.
00:18:02.20\00:18:03.17
So I had that conference
and I invited the leading Roman
00:18:03.19\00:18:07.14
Catholic religious liberty, you
might say, or theological expert
00:18:07.17\00:18:12.53
who was a bishop in
the Catholic Church.
00:18:12.56\00:18:14.35
He was the leading theologian
in the Catholic Church
00:18:14.38\00:18:17.62
who was a bishop.
00:18:17.65\00:18:18.62
There were other theologians
who were teaching in faculties
00:18:18.63\00:18:21.19
of theology but he, as a bishop,
was a leading theologian...
00:18:21.22\00:18:24.48
One of the hierarchy.
00:18:24.51\00:18:25.48
Who was part of the hierarchy,
I think his name was "Butler"
00:18:25.49\00:18:26.98
as I remember.
00:18:27.01\00:18:28.18
He was a member of the Order
of Saint Benedict, I think.
00:18:28.21\00:18:32.30
And a leading theologian.
00:18:32.33\00:18:34.23
Anyhow, I invited
him to be a speaker
00:18:34.26\00:18:36.73
And tell us what is the
development in the Catholic
00:18:36.76\00:18:38.73
Church on religious liberty,
especially just right after
00:18:38.76\00:18:41.18
the Vatican Council.
00:18:41.21\00:18:42.18
This was right, probably in
66' or 67' a few years after
00:18:42.19\00:18:46.56
the Second Vatican Council.
00:18:46.59\00:18:47.69
I should specify... Sure, I
remember... Can I just interrupt
00:18:47.72\00:18:50.87
for our viewers... yes.
You were about to say something
00:18:50.90\00:18:54.03
significant about
their present view...
00:18:54.06\00:18:55.68
But it is worth
remembering before Vatican II...
00:18:55.71\00:18:58.55
which Pope, was it Pope Leo?
00:18:58.58\00:19:00.69
One of the Popes, "Pius"
00:19:00.72\00:19:01.96
Anyhow, one of the Popes
spoke of religious liberty as a
00:19:01.99\00:19:05.23
pernicious view.
00:19:05.26\00:19:06.27
Well yeah, that was I
think, Pius IX... Yes.
00:19:06.30\00:19:11.65
Of course, he was, I think one
of the Popes at the time when
00:19:11.68\00:19:16.44
the Italian troops occupied Rome
00:19:16.47\00:19:20.01
And he saw all this
modernism and liberalism as very
00:19:20.04\00:19:26.09
destructive to religious liberty
00:19:26.12\00:19:27.09
So in the past,
before Vatican II...
00:19:28.25\00:19:29.64
Well absolutely... now
this theologian then he...
00:19:29.67\00:19:32.51
Up until the year 2000, no
until 1900, you still have the
00:19:32.54\00:19:38.83
Holy Inquisition in
the Catholic Church.
00:19:38.86\00:19:40.96
It changed its
name now, more recently.
00:19:40.99\00:19:43.28
It's now the Congregation for
the Doctrine of the Faith, so on
00:19:43.31\00:19:46.65
So it's that situation but
anyhow this Bishop Butler came.
00:19:46.68\00:19:52.88
And before he came, several
people have talked to me about
00:19:52.91\00:19:55.75
preparing the conferences.
00:19:55.78\00:19:56.84
Oh, we are going to
really get after him.
00:19:56.87\00:19:58.41
We're really going to talk
to him about religious liberty
00:19:58.44\00:20:00.99
and about persecution in the
Catholic Church and all that.
00:20:01.02\00:20:03.55
And when he came and gave
his talk, he opened this talk
00:20:03.58\00:20:06.58
by saying "The record of
the Roman Catholic Church in
00:20:06.61\00:20:11.44
religious liberty
has been an abysmal one"
00:20:11.47\00:20:14.41
He took the wind
right out of their sails...
00:20:14.44\00:20:17.49
What could they say?
00:20:17.52\00:20:18.87
He'd already said it,
admitted it and so on.
00:20:18.90\00:20:21.21
And he gave a very excellent
talk showing the development
00:20:21.24\00:20:24.30
and how difficult it was.
00:20:24.33\00:20:26.00
And now the Catholic
Church had accepted the concept
00:20:26.03\00:20:28.76
of religious liberty.
00:20:28.79\00:20:29.98
And it's a fact... so the
integrists, the fundamentalists
00:20:30.01\00:20:35.22
at the Second
Vatican Council were opposed.
00:20:35.25\00:20:37.51
In fact when they had to vote
on religious liberty, there was
00:20:37.54\00:20:39.95
still, you know,
out of 2000 bishops
00:20:39.98\00:20:42.25
I don't remember now,
I'm going by memory...
00:20:42.28\00:20:44.00
Maybe 100-200 voted against it.
00:20:44.03\00:20:46.58
It was a small minority
but still they choose...
00:20:46.61\00:20:48.65
and they
adamantly voted against it.
00:20:48.68\00:20:50.03
I remember reading
the story on the news.
00:20:50.06\00:20:51.81
They absolutely were against it.
00:20:51.84\00:20:53.12
In fact, I remember speaking
to one of the Spanish bishops
00:20:53.15\00:20:57.53
when there was persecution
in Spain at that time.
00:20:57.56\00:21:01.88
We didn't have
religious liberty in Spain.
00:21:01.91\00:21:03.70
Our church had difficulties
00:21:03.73\00:21:05.14
This was in Franco's era.
00:21:05.17\00:21:06.14
I remember preaching in the
church in, I think, Madrid or
00:21:06.15\00:21:08.90
Barcelona, I think it was Madrid
00:21:08.93\00:21:10.05
in which we had to have the
windows shut so people could not
00:21:10.08\00:21:13.47
could not hear the
singing in the church.
00:21:13.50\00:21:15.15
We could leave the church one
by one so there would not create
00:21:15.18\00:21:19.11
the impression that a meeting
had taken place, or crowd.
00:21:19.14\00:21:21.32
The local police chief
had approached our church
00:21:21.35\00:21:24.14
And said listen, can you help me
00:21:24.17\00:21:26.49
I'm in favor of you
having a meeting here
00:21:26.52\00:21:29.67
I'm in favor of you
having a church and all that
00:21:29.70\00:21:31.56
But don't create it at public
too much because otherwise
00:21:31.59\00:21:34.71
I will get a letter and pressure
from the local bishop who
00:21:34.74\00:21:38.09
asks me to shut you down.
00:21:38.12\00:21:40.11
So we tried to
accommodate him and so on.
00:21:40.14\00:21:42.33
That was the situation.
00:21:42.36\00:21:43.79
So I met a Catholic bishop
at the Second Vatican Council
00:21:43.82\00:21:46.51
in the press office there
00:21:46.54\00:21:48.62
And I asked him,
listen, we talk a lot about the
00:21:48.65\00:21:52.06
"separated brethren" which was
a term that emerged just before
00:21:52.09\00:21:58.34
the Vatican Council and
during the Vatican Council,
00:21:58.37\00:22:00.92
he was given a voice.
00:22:00.95\00:22:02.29
Because beforehand, you
had no separated brethren,
00:22:02.32\00:22:04.67
you had separated heretics.
Yes, heretics. And so on.
00:22:04.70\00:22:07.91
But now it was
separated brethren.
00:22:07.94\00:22:10.22
I said, "now, what is the
situation of the separated
00:22:10.25\00:22:14.61
brethren in Spain?"
00:22:14.64\00:22:18.33
"Oh," he said, "In Spain,
we have no separated brethren
00:22:18.36\00:22:22.65
There is full religion but
we have no separated brethren"
00:22:22.68\00:22:25.11
Well, that was
you know, his idea...
00:22:25.14\00:22:28.42
When there was no religious
liberty, we had Adventists
00:22:28.45\00:22:30.99
who waited years
to be able to marry.
00:22:31.02\00:22:33.24
They couldn't get married
because they had been baptized
00:22:33.27\00:22:36.50
as a Roman Catholic as a baby
00:22:36.53\00:22:38.47
And, therefore, they had
to be married by a priest.
00:22:38.50\00:22:41.93
They could not go to a
civil office to be married
00:22:41.96\00:22:44.81
because they were
considered to be Catholics.
00:22:44.84\00:22:47.08
They had to have a priest and
had to go to Mass in order to
00:22:47.11\00:22:49.12
to be able to have the
priest perform the wedding.
00:22:49.15\00:22:51.62
So, if they wanted to
get married, they waited and
00:22:51.65\00:22:53.21
and waited and waited
00:22:53.24\00:22:54.21
Or, would maybe go to
France or someplace else outside
00:22:54.24\00:22:57.12
of the country to get married.
00:22:57.15\00:22:58.25
That was the situation.
00:22:58.28\00:22:59.26
You're talking about Vatican II
00:22:59.29\00:23:00.34
But I want to make
a connection on Spain.
00:23:00.37\00:23:02.17
In that area you're talking
about, that was Franco's Spain
00:23:02.20\00:23:05.04
And while he was a
secular despot, dictator
00:23:05.07\00:23:09.42
he really had a strong alliance
with the Roman Catholic Church.
00:23:09.45\00:23:12.58
Absolutely... And was using his
dictatorial prowls to advance
00:23:12.61\00:23:15.94
further Catholicism
00:23:15.97\00:23:17.01
With the secular regime now,
they have more de facto filii
00:23:17.04\00:23:22.89
functional separation of
church and state and religious
00:23:22.92\00:23:24.92
freedom disclosed.
00:23:24.95\00:23:26.46
In fact, yes, in Spain today,
there is a very good religious
00:23:26.49\00:23:29.89
liberty situation.
00:23:29.92\00:23:30.91
And I think its
purposes have changed...
00:23:30.94\00:23:32.16
As religious liberty in Spain
they even have a statement voted
00:23:32.19\00:23:36.45
by the Italian, excuse
me, by the government in Spain
00:23:36.48\00:23:40.28
recognizing in, I think clause
number 12, of that agreement
00:23:40.31\00:23:44.27
that Seventh-Day Adventists have
to be protected in their right
00:23:44.30\00:23:49.10
to observe their Sabbath,
their day of rest and so forth.
00:23:49.13\00:23:52.71
And recently the Spanish
government even gave us free
00:23:52.74\00:23:57.12
land to build a church in Madrid
for our Romanian brethren.
00:23:57.15\00:24:02.64
We have a lot of Romanians
that have gone to Spain.
00:24:02.67\00:24:05.54
In fact the largest church
we probably have in Madrid is a
00:24:05.57\00:24:08.51
Romanian church and so on.
00:24:08.54\00:24:10.38
So, the situation has changed.
00:24:10.41\00:24:12.16
Our international Religious
Liberty Association to which you
00:24:12.19\00:24:14.85
are involved and I was the
Secretary General for many years
00:24:14.88\00:24:19.52
I'm still the Secretary
General Emeritus... I'd like to
00:24:19.55\00:24:23.78
mention that. For
life, I'm sure, right?
00:24:23.81\00:24:27.62
And the Spanish government gave
money to us to organize meetings
00:24:27.65\00:24:32.70
of our group of experts in
Spain on two or three occasions
00:24:32.73\00:24:36.07
And made it possible for that
group to develop through the
00:24:36.10\00:24:39.28
money given by the
Spanish government.
00:24:39.31\00:24:41.19
And at most of our international
conferences, we have
00:24:41.22\00:24:44.63
representatives from
Spain and from the government.
00:24:44.66\00:24:46.82
Absolutely.
00:24:46.85\00:24:47.96
So things have improved.
00:24:47.99\00:24:49.53
The Roman Catholic Church
somewhat grudgingly at times
00:24:49.56\00:24:52.54
But I think largely because
the Vatican II has become
00:24:52.57\00:24:56.34
a partner in religious freedom.
00:24:56.37\00:24:58.05
And because the fundamentalists,
the integrists, the extremists,
00:24:58.08\00:25:01.49
the persecutors
are not in charge.
00:25:01.52\00:25:03.88
Yes, and this is what I,
I think I've mentioned it on
00:25:03.91\00:25:07.51
this program, but what I
say in talks at the moment
00:25:07.54\00:25:10.52
I believe that on religious
liberty, we are somewhat living
00:25:10.55\00:25:14.22
through a Dickensian model.
00:25:14.25\00:25:16.04
You know "Tale of Two Cities" he
says "it was the best of times
00:25:16.07\00:25:19.39
and it was the worst of times"
00:25:19.42\00:25:21.37
On a certain practical level for
most people, certainly in the
00:25:21.40\00:25:24.52
Western world, we
have never been more free
00:25:24.55\00:25:27.18
And yet structurally and
dynamically with the threats
00:25:27.21\00:25:31.23
that are looming and
the challenges coming up
00:25:31.26\00:25:33.87
the danger has never
been greater for a cataclysmic
00:25:33.90\00:25:37.83
change on religious freedom.
00:25:37.86\00:25:39.77
But we cannot make an argument
that things are getting worse
00:25:39.80\00:25:42.90
for all of us, practically
speaking, in the moment.
00:25:42.93\00:25:45.83
No, I think the situation is not
00:25:45.86\00:25:48.44
But back to this fundamentalist
and extremist threat from
00:25:48.47\00:25:51.90
radical Islam particularly that
is what the world thinks about
00:25:51.93\00:25:54.81
I think this is a
harbinger of what's to come
00:25:54.84\00:25:57.10
Because religion of a regressive
nature that won't change
00:25:57.13\00:26:01.32
that's under threat from
secularism or external events
00:26:01.35\00:26:04.96
that it cannot control, can
quickly turn violent. Hmm-hmm.
00:26:04.99\00:26:09.22
And I think we can do well
to warn our members of this.
00:26:09.25\00:26:14.04
What do you think on this
extremism? A last word on it.
00:26:14.07\00:26:18.86
Well, extremism, I think is
dangerous in the world today
00:26:18.89\00:26:23.20
Extremism has a
tendency of growing in many
00:26:23.23\00:26:25.67
parts of the world.
00:26:25.70\00:26:26.67
We have to be careful.
00:26:26.68\00:26:28.56
We have to avoid giving
too much power to people
00:26:28.59\00:26:33.57
And certainly we need to be very
careful because when people are
00:26:33.60\00:26:38.48
faced with extremism with
the dangers, with terrorism,
00:26:38.51\00:26:42.52
they are willing maybe to give
up some of their basic rights
00:26:42.55\00:26:46.32
in order to be feeling safe.
00:26:46.35\00:26:52.06
It's been said that anything
worth doing is worth doing well.
00:26:52.09\00:26:55.74
And in that vein, I really have
to remember what Jesus said...
00:26:55.77\00:27:00.59
He said, "He that loves father,
mother, brother, sister more
00:27:00.62\00:27:06.99
than Me, is not worthy of Me"
00:27:07.02\00:27:09.15
In these current times that
we live in with the threat of
00:27:09.18\00:27:13.67
so-called extremism, of
fundamentalism, it's worth
00:27:13.70\00:27:18.24
remembering that
Christianity certainly demands
00:27:18.27\00:27:22.35
everything of us.
00:27:22.38\00:27:23.66
On a certain level we are
called to be fundamentalists,
00:27:23.69\00:27:27.77
On a certain level we
are called to be extremists.
00:27:27.80\00:27:32.35
Of course what we are never
called to be is narrow-minded
00:27:32.38\00:27:36.04
What we are never encouraged
by Holy Scripture, understood
00:27:36.07\00:27:39.76
correctly is someone who
advocates violence, who will
00:27:39.79\00:27:43.16
visit compulsion or anything
that would damage another person
00:27:43.19\00:27:49.17
on others. That is wrong.
00:27:49.20\00:27:51.23
We are to exemplify
love, understanding, tolerance,
00:27:51.26\00:27:55.02
religious liberty.
00:27:55.05\00:27:56.73
Because this is close to
what God intends and what
00:27:56.76\00:28:01.15
we are called to.
00:28:01.18\00:28:03.90
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:03.93\00:28:04.90